So, I had this image of Michael in his cellar, learning tunes. I know - he actually learnt them in the evenings and from previous experience on another instrument.
But is that *all* you do when learning new tunes? I'm not sure if it's just because I'm slightly obsessive about this, but, for me, even where I've learnt a tune in a session, I will very often go away and look it up in as many places as I can find, and find different versions and takes on it.
I'll look on this site, in books, on YouTube, other places on the net, ask other musicians. And, of course, there's the listening in as many sessions as possible and hearing at first hand other musicians' takes on the tune.
Then finally, about a year later, I think I might just know the tune. And meanwhile I've learned loads of interesting things about it ... Of course I don't let on if anyone asks
When I was a navigator (long before the days of GPS), we determined the bearings of at least three distant objects (either terrestrial or celestial). From each we got a line of position. And where those lines of position intersected was (probably) where we were. Sometimes the intersection was nice and neat, sometimes it was a loose triangle or other shape, which indicated some uncertainty. Relying on a single line, or two lines, without that third (or fourth) line could lead to difficulties.
What does this have to do with tunes? There are many "lines of position" that you can draw upon, benhall mentioned some above. You can look at websites, different sources of sheet music, listen to others play it (both in familiar and far away places, and live or recorded). If you play multiple instruments, you can play it on each to see how it feels on them. You can learn its various names and where they came from. You need to look at all those sources, and see the things that are the same, and things that are different. Only then can you say that you truly "know" the tune.
I you learn one thing every day in one year thats 365 new things learnt thats my theory.............but theres a difference between learning something and then being able to do it..............
I use all those methods. I learn them from session-mates, I learn them by osmosis from my favorite recordings, I consult Dow's list and the Member's Favorites here on our beloved mustard board and bang them out in private until they're ready, I wander into the swamps and learn them from little Seminole Indian fairies (they love Guinness, I bring with), all of these methods are valid and effective.
My vision of Michael in the cellar is him strapped to an operating table, bolt through the neck, wired up to electrodes, fiddle in hand, waiting for a lightening storm which will shock him back to life so he can FINALLY get to grips with that twiddly bit on the second part of Eddie Kelly's reel.....
...but I dread to think of the image he has of me.....
Thanks saint, I'll see if their swamp cousins have the same tastes. They seem pretty game for anything. I'm just glad they don't hold a grudge. Their fairy casino seems to be thriving.
Another element of learning is the context - the story behind the tune. I'm thinking particularly here of the documented stories that go with O'Carolan's tunes.
I learned "Squire Wood's Lamentation on the Refusal of his Halfpence" because of the title; much later I read the story behind the tune. I can't say it helped me play it better, BUT if I tell the story behind the tune, it helps other people to engage with it - which in my book is just as good. The meaning of any communication is in the listener's response - if you believe George Meade, who did a lot of work around communicative interaction - so at least half of the equation is to do with the listener, not just me. So if we can help the listener's understanding in any way, that's as valid as being able to play better - ie, in this example, the research helps with the connection between the listener and the music.
I do, mate. I'm worried that the mental image he has of you is of someone leaping about in an attic, tormented by tinnitus, looking for that bottle of Whisky to relieve your suffering and howling " The Bells! The Bells!..."
My CD collection is epic, and I have recordings of most of a good portion of the tunes that my teacher gives me. So when he teaches me a new tune, or when I pick one up at a session, I'll dig up a recording of it and put it on the iPod. I'll also add the tune to my tunebook, and I read through the comments thoroughly - there are often a lot of gems there.
I love seeking out different versions of tunes, and seeing how many liberties can be taken with the basic form of a tune while still maintaining its identity. In this, playing ITM has made me listen to it so much more attentively, and I am finding that the tunes that I liked best before I played fiddle aren't the tunes I like best now. The ones I liked best before were the most lively and driving ones; the ones I like best now are still lively and driving, but also lend themselves well to melodic variation.
At my session, we play Tamlin with Catharsis, a set that's a favourite to listen to. I can play both tunes now, and to my surprise, am finding myself loving playing Tamlin (I know you hate it, benhall), and hating playing Catharsis. It's not just because I can play Tamlin better. It's that I have five recordings of Tamlin, comprising a good two dozen variations. I have three recordings of Catharsis, by talented fiddlers all, but they versions differ only in the accompaniment used, and to some extend in the bowing. Melody is almost exactly the same in all of them. Even though I can only play one version of Tamlin (and not very well, either), I see so many possibilities of where I can go with it. (Due to the number of variations of it I've heard, though, I can't see myself ever leading it at a session.) Catharsis, on the other hand, is what it is, and I can see myself getting bored with it once my technique evolves to the point where I can play it decently.
And, Al, I agree with benhall: brilliant analogy with navigation.
I do some research, but not as actively as I used to. I have an mp3 player mounted in the trunk of my car that has about 3000 Irish tracks on it. I leave that playing on random when I'm driving, and will often run across settings of tunes that I play. When that happens, I may play the track several times and listen for interesting bits.
But for me, getting real familiar with the tune doesn't have as much to do with listening to other people's takes on it, as it does sitting down with the tune and exploring it on my own, trying to figure out different ways to express the same idea. I don't generally do that with a tune until I've been playing it regularly for a while.
Occasionally, I will search out different settings of a tune when I'm learning it, but for the most part, I learn tunes from other players, and so I usually start by learning their setting of it.
T, D & M, I'm touched that you remembered that I hate Tam Lin.
I mean, it's not as if I mention it every five minutes is it? ... And sulk every time I even hear anybody dare to play just the first few notes ... And stopm out of the pub, cursing and searing and tearking my hair and my teeth out and adnasdf.kjhfdam mnbav,mnbnmm .. kjjg.j,.
How much research do you do?
How much research do you do?
We've talked about some aspects of this before, but I was reminded of the subject by a very brief exchange between myself and Michael Gill:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15353/comments#comment317267
So, I had this image of Michael in his cellar, learning tunes. I know - he actually learnt them in the evenings and from previous experience on another instrument.
But is that *all* you do when learning new tunes? I'm not sure if it's just because I'm slightly obsessive about this, but, for me, even where I've learnt a tune in a session, I will very often go away and look it up in as many places as I can find, and find different versions and takes on it.
I'll look on this site, in books, on YouTube, other places on the net, ask other musicians. And, of course, there's the listening in as many sessions as possible and hearing at first hand other musicians' takes on the tune.
Then finally, about a year later, I think I might just know the tune. And meanwhile I've learned loads of interesting things about it ... Of course I don't let on if anyone asks
How much of this stuff does anyone else do?
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: How much research do you do?
When I was a navigator (long before the days of GPS), we determined the bearings of at least three distant objects (either terrestrial or celestial). From each we got a line of position. And where those lines of position intersected was (probably) where we were. Sometimes the intersection was nice and neat, sometimes it was a loose triangle or other shape, which indicated some uncertainty. Relying on a single line, or two lines, without that third (or fourth) line could lead to difficulties.
What does this have to do with tunes? There are many "lines of position" that you can draw upon, benhall mentioned some above. You can look at websites, different sources of sheet music, listen to others play it (both in familiar and far away places, and live or recorded). If you play multiple instruments, you can play it on each to see how it feels on them. You can learn its various names and where they came from. You need to look at all those sources, and see the things that are the same, and things that are different. Only then can you say that you truly "know" the tune.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: How much research do you do?
I you learn one thing every day in one year thats 365 new things learnt thats my theory.............but theres a difference between learning something and then being able to do it..............
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: How much research do you do?
if
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: How much research do you do?
Navigation! Al, that's brilliant!
Thank you.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: How much research do you do?
Indeed, that was awesome Al, like a Zen Surveyor:
"There are many paths to the same goal, grasshopper..."
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much research do you do?
navigation has that got to do with being drunk and getting home
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: How much research do you do?
...and to answer the question...
I use all those methods. I learn them from session-mates, I learn them by osmosis from my favorite recordings, I consult Dow's list and the Member's Favorites here on our beloved mustard board and bang them out in private until they're ready, I wander into the swamps and learn them from little Seminole Indian fairies (they love Guinness, I bring with), all of these methods are valid and effective.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much research do you do?
the fairies in cork prefer beamish or murphys
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: How much research do you do?
My vision of Michael in the cellar is him strapped to an operating table, bolt through the neck, wired up to electrodes, fiddle in hand, waiting for a lightening storm which will shock him back to life so he can FINALLY get to grips with that twiddly bit on the second part of Eddie Kelly's reel.....
...but I dread to think of the image he has of me.....
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: How much research do you do?
You should bloody worry.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much research do you do?
saint, the kind of navigation you are referring to is known in the trade as "dead reckoning."
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: How much research do you do?
Steve, I must say I'm disappointed. We've had total brilliance from Al, and all you can say is "You should bloody worry".
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: How much research do you do?
Thanks saint, I'll see if their swamp cousins have the same tastes. They seem pretty game for anything. I'm just glad they don't hold a grudge. Their fairy casino seems to be thriving.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How much research do you do?
Can't help it, Ben. Michael's just so scary.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: How much research do you do?
"dead reckoning." sorry I thought it was "being lost"
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: How much research do you do?
Another element of learning is the context - the story behind the tune. I'm thinking particularly here of the documented stories that go with O'Carolan's tunes.
I learned "Squire Wood's Lamentation on the Refusal of his Halfpence" because of the title; much later I read the story behind the tune. I can't say it helped me play it better, BUT if I tell the story behind the tune, it helps other people to engage with it - which in my book is just as good. The meaning of any communication is in the listener's response - if you believe George Meade, who did a lot of work around communicative interaction - so at least half of the equation is to do with the listener, not just me. So if we can help the listener's understanding in any way, that's as valid as being able to play better - ie, in this example, the research helps with the connection between the listener and the music.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Mark Harmer
Re: How much research do you do?
you should bloody worry.
I do, mate. I'm worried that the mental image he has of you is of someone leaping about in an attic, tormented by tinnitus, looking for that bottle of Whisky to relieve your suffering and howling " The Bells! The Bells!..."
Only joking Steve.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: How much research do you do?
I think learning the "back story" of the tunes is half the fun. Some people can't even be bothered to learn tune names though...
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by timmy!
Re: How much research do you do?
My CD collection is epic, and I have recordings of most of a good portion of the tunes that my teacher gives me. So when he teaches me a new tune, or when I pick one up at a session, I'll dig up a recording of it and put it on the iPod. I'll also add the tune to my tunebook, and I read through the comments thoroughly - there are often a lot of gems there.
I love seeking out different versions of tunes, and seeing how many liberties can be taken with the basic form of a tune while still maintaining its identity. In this, playing ITM has made me listen to it so much more attentively, and I am finding that the tunes that I liked best before I played fiddle aren't the tunes I like best now. The ones I liked best before were the most lively and driving ones; the ones I like best now are still lively and driving, but also lend themselves well to melodic variation.
At my session, we play Tamlin with Catharsis, a set that's a favourite to listen to. I can play both tunes now, and to my surprise, am finding myself loving playing Tamlin (I know you hate it, benhall), and hating playing Catharsis. It's not just because I can play Tamlin better. It's that I have five recordings of Tamlin, comprising a good two dozen variations. I have three recordings of Catharsis, by talented fiddlers all, but they versions differ only in the accompaniment used, and to some extend in the bowing. Melody is almost exactly the same in all of them. Even though I can only play one version of Tamlin (and not very well, either), I see so many possibilities of where I can go with it. (Due to the number of variations of it I've heard, though, I can't see myself ever leading it at a session.) Catharsis, on the other hand, is what it is, and I can see myself getting bored with it once my technique evolves to the point where I can play it decently.
And, Al, I agree with benhall: brilliant analogy with navigation.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: How much research do you do?
I do some research, but not as actively as I used to. I have an mp3 player mounted in the trunk of my car that has about 3000 Irish tracks on it. I leave that playing on random when I'm driving, and will often run across settings of tunes that I play. When that happens, I may play the track several times and listen for interesting bits.
But for me, getting real familiar with the tune doesn't have as much to do with listening to other people's takes on it, as it does sitting down with the tune and exploring it on my own, trying to figure out different ways to express the same idea. I don't generally do that with a tune until I've been playing it regularly for a while.
Occasionally, I will search out different settings of a tune when I'm learning it, but for the most part, I learn tunes from other players, and so I usually start by learning their setting of it.
Pete
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Reverend
Re: How much research do you do?
T, D & M, I'm touched that you remembered that I hate Tam Lin.
I mean, it's not as if I mention it every five minutes is it? ... And sulk every time I even hear anybody dare to play just the first few notes ... And stopm out of the pub, cursing and searing and tearking my hair and my teeth out and adnasdf.kjhfdam mnbav,mnbnmm .. kjjg.j,.
!!!!!??**!
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: How much research do you do?
... oh, and btw, even that took me 2 goes to post ... 'cos i was *so* cross the first time, I accidentally deleted it ...
But there. All gone now [sigh]
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: How much research do you do?
G,
A,2....
DA,FA,DA,
B,2...
DB,FB,DB,
C2...
ECFCEC
FEDC
D2...
*cue bodhran*
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: How much research do you do?
... ughhhhhhhhhhh ...
[shudder]
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: How much research do you do?
For once, let's just hope the f****ng bodhran is very VERY LOUD !!!
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: How much research do you do?
I navigate by reverse osmosis.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by GDub