So the crime in question here is how the music has been removed from dancing, or vice versa.
...and I mean, dancing for EVERYONE.
The problem here, in America, is that no one thinks anyone should dance to this music unless you are one of two things:
1) A girl with sequins and impossibly made up hair-dos on St. Patty's day, doing formalized step dancing. "Did you know they have a school for that, Doris?" "Oh, you don't say? Well, what do they do the other 364 days of the year?" Sigh.
2) An adult male in tights on a stage with smoke machines and laser lights. Thanks Flatley.
It's my personal mission to destroy these concepts wherever they are found and to show people that everyone can dance to it, and no, you don't have to worry about the police arresting you for not doing it ‘right’.
Let's party. Boogie woogie oogie. I don’t know how to dance and I don’t care. I do know how to batter the floor with my heel and my foot in time to the music and I show everyone I see at sessions while doing my best ‘drunk man in pub shuffling sean-nos’ fakery.
Or, at least, that’s my new resolution, to dance, dance, dance!
Don’t you feel it? I feel it every time! I don’t know how I stay still!
…and yet, I fall victim to it too:
“Oh no! I can’t get up and dance, I don’t know what I’m doing!”
It’s tough to fight, but I am resolved to destroy that thought not only in myself but in everyone I meet, and it also helps to not care if you make an ass out yourself. Others will follow.
So please. I know it’s probably heretical and anathema to advocate the untrained to dance to Irish music, but we need to encourage dance, and I don’t mean the competition style or the couples set dancing, I mean the old drunk man in the pub who just has to get up and shimmy around because it feels so good and darn it, he’s got the beat! The wee ones will do it, the auld ladies, even the 20-somethings will do it too if we’re all doing it.
This music has such tremendous rhythm and beat to it. How does everyone stay still? Why do you stay still? When I hear it I can’t stop moving.
Two things - there is a couple of great clips on youtube - one is called Philadelphia Irish, I believe, where a group of folks get up and start step dancing to the music provided by the local session - it looks like a blast and everyone is having a great time.
Secondly, I used to play in a pub style band in the South SF bay area ages ago, and we were fortunate to get some choice gigs where Irish Mayors would come and visit American "sister cities" and the whole local Irish community would turn out for the party. Without exception, by the third set of tunes or songs, many folks would be up and dancing - nothing formal - just hopping and bopping about for the simple joy in it. Even though we were hired to play, it didn't feel like a gig anymore - it was a great delight to make that sort of connection with the folks dancing. Some of the best times I have ever had making music.
Once in a great while somebody will start up dancing at one of our sessions - I think it's wonderful, and I wish it would happen more often.
In Naples, FL down the coast lives a great concertina player and dance teacher, lived in Chicago for years. She's trying to get a ceili together with the local Irish American club and I'll get a chance to play for them then should it come off. She's hoping to make it a monthly event. She also does some set dance classes at a local senior citizens' condo complex.
Sean nos seems more accessible, however. Not sure if that's the right word. People see it and sort of think they could do it. Maybe it's because I'm an absolute rank novice so I stink. I'd wager that has something to do with it. It's improvisational nature also attracts folks.
The stuff in question. This is not a advertisement, just using them as a fine example:
I want to spend the rest of my life playing in sessions and things, and not really for dancers unless someone asks me to, which is not going to be very often in Kernow (though it has happened!). That's just me, but equally I just don't want to lose sight of the fact that our music evolved for dancers and that sessions and supergroups came later. I love sessions and supergroups but the dance bit is cast in stone for me, which is one reason I don't like it when someone or other affects to turn ITM into some kind of exclusive arty-farty thing which must only be regarded as being "well done" if you have virtuoso fiddlers with every ornament in the book down to a tee, or super-slick guitar accompanists, or bodhranistas who play tunes on the bloody thing. I love a really good, earthy, rough-round-the-edges sound in our sessions with that lovely, elusive bit of lift. Don't get it as often as I'd wish but it's great when we do get it. I reckon that anyone inclined to dance would like that as well. In fact, on our better nights we've had people jigging dangerously around the pub! If you want super-ethereal challenge, you can have Bach or Beethoven. If you want earthy, dancy good humour, you can have ITM. Or Bach or Beethoven!
I don't know. It's a bit like that travel reporter who suggested tourists should clink their spare change against their Guinness bottles in time to the music when they find themselves in a pub with a session.
It's one thing when people know the basics of Irish dancing, but pogoing around at random is a bit off-putting imho. However, whatever consenting adults want to do in the privacy of their own pub...
There's nothing quite like watching a toddler listening to the music - they can't help but dance!
Unfortunately, I think you're right, SWFL. Even the majority of step dancers that I have run into really don't like the music. They'd just assume dance to Lorena McKennitt or something, as long as it has a noticeable beat.
I was playing for a dance school once, and had a student ask me why I played this music. I said "because I love it", and she just couldn't get that through her head. "You LIKE this stuff?!?" I'm not saying that about all step dancers, BTW. But I have found that a majority of them seem to think that way - but then again, if you look at the general demographic - teenage girls - it's not going to be what their friends like, so they're not going to like it. (Heck, even *I* didn't like it much when I first heard it - too "twangy" for my tastes... Heh... Now I'm a banjo player! LOL)
And don't get me started about step dancing in general - it's a competitive sport, not an art form. It drives me batty on occasion. Especially the "dance moms" - they're worse than "little league fathers".
They can pogo around at random for me, or do a Peruvian war-dance or the funky chicken for all I care, as long as we're all having fun and they don't knock my bloody pint over!
The dancing in the video clip above was a once-off visit by some step-dancers who were visiting the area and stopped into the Shanachie in Ambler, Pa. However, the session at this pub is very welcoming to dancers of all sorts (not the falling-down drunk ones however) and has had ceili dancers, set dancers and step dancers get up and dance spontaneously on several occasions. The two anchors of the session have played for ceilidhs for years all over the Philadelphia area and feel that dancing adds another dimension to this session. As I've mentioned in other threads they also welcome singers. It is an excellent session, running every Tuesday without fail and has seen many visiting musicians who've reported that they read about it on this website. I was told a great anecdote by Aidan Vaughan, a well-know sean nos/set dancer, that Junior Crehan once said at a session at Gleeson's "Would you ever get up and dance and stop wasting this good music?" Point well taken!
Let's face it SWFL, there will be two camps on this thread; those like ye and me, weened deep in the mosh pits of Pogues and Ramones concerts; we, who vibrate at the sound of any sweet groove; us for whom the music is a physical experience - against those that want their sessions to be a zen-like, deeply meditative, almost prayer like musical experience - without interuptions from punters, dancers, singers, etc.
And Moria's quote from Aidan Vaughan perfectly sums it up!
"It's dance music!" ~ I SAY, IT'S DANCE MUSIC!!! Even the terms for the two forms that make up the largest percentage of Irish music were words that referred to dance and dancing ~ 'jig' & 'reel' ~ for starters. One can choose to ignore that, but it is usually evident in the results, typical 'session' playing, lacking the lift and interest that signifies the 'dance' in the melodies. But hey, if you want to play it flat out and monotonous, who am I to p*ss on your fire? ~ ssssssssss!!!
However, I can undestand how some dance and dancers can cause one to want to put as much space between themselves and what some folks present as 'dance'... I know I too find some versions downright scary...weird...and at times just too dogmatic and pompous. And those damned precosious little kiddies with their pushy parents...alone or in groups ~ AAAAAA!!! Many a 'dance' related event we have avoided where that was a likely addition... For example, group step dancers, in those costumes, and ringlets, and who insist on bringing their own backing tracks, some shight recording on am additionally bad sounding boom box... I'd much rather Sumo wrestling, or a live brass band concert...or to stay at home with a nice bottle of single malt Scotch listening to 'The Pogues'...
Somewhere, sometime, in a universe far far away, a friend and I (whistle and fiddle) provided music fer a St Patrick's Night green beer Uni Union bash. We had a chorus line of 'em ('em being fun loving slightly inebriated uni students) under a tree outside the Uni bar all linked together can-canning to our jigs. We was all into it together. It was trerrific.
It's unusual at our sessions or gigs when someone *isn't* moved to get up and dance. Kids just do it, regardless of the setting or who's watching. Sometimes a foursome of grown ups gets up and does a set. And there's a lovely elderly couple who dance wherever we play--in the pubs, on the street, at the grocery store. They always ask for a waltz to end on, and I'm happy to oblige.
Last year we played for an outdoor wedding reception, and the party went on late into the night. The bride and groom did their twirl around the backyard, and then the lithesome bridesmaids all started shimmying in their slinky dresses to the tunes. They grooved to jigs and reels for hours. Thoroughly enjoyable (and I played with my eyes wide open that night).
"There's nothing quite like watching a toddler listening to the music - they can't help but dance!"
A year or so in Belgium I watched my 2-year old granddaughter dancing to the music of a Mozart piano concerto being played on the TV by Daniel Barenboim.
"Did you know they have a school for that, Doris?" "Oh, you don't say? Well what do they do for the other 364 days of the year?"
Heh heh heh heh, that brings the voices of Graham Chapman and Terry Jones' old female roles back to life for me. Aaaah, the good old gals of Monty Python.
One of my great pleasures is while busking, watching passersby start to bounce and skip; with the odd full-scale breakout into a little dance performance.
Another great pleasure, MartySmith, was meeting Graham Chapman and watching him do an impromptu performance for a youth group, and spend twenty minutes talking to a handicapped lad with no chance of any publicity for the effort.
He also told me the story behind his acceptance of the Daily Mirror award.........
they didnt used to know what they were doing. as my grandma said of the dancers of her youth, "they made it all up!"
keeping that in mind, i have stuck some tacks in an old pair of shoes and grabbed a board in the garage. i just lilt the tune in my head and listen to my shoes click away.
Well, JNE, for me, it was more like the mosh pits of Ministry and Rage Against The Machine. But I'm there with ya, my friend. Dancing was something that I did a lot of - mostly to meet girls (and trust me, it worked!) But there's nothing better than moving to the groove! I actually get physically involved when I'm playing a particularly groovy session. It makes me want to dance!
And don't get me wrong! I love it when people get up and dance spontaneously to the music! And I love it when a set dance ensues, because unlike step dancers, the set dancers tend to enjoy the music! And I like it when there's step dancers at sessions and performances too, because it generally adds to the energy in the room!
But my overall impression of step dancing in this day and age is not a favorable one. The competitive nature of it, and the fact that most of them could care less about what music they're dancing to, has led me to believe that it isn't part of an art form any more. People seem to do it because they've been trained to do it, by cloned schools, with TCRG teachers that are only interested in developing "champion" dancers... It has a lot to answer for, in my opinion!
The music and the dance should be hand in hand, but they're staring at each other from across the room, jealously thinking of how they used to be a great couple, but only connected out of a nebulous necessity, like a prom queen who had to go to the dance with the captain of the football team because that's the way it's done, not because they care for each other... Sigh.
(It just occurred to me that the previous analogy might be lost on our European friends... sorry)
Hear hear for the sets.
Great to see people dancing sets in the pub at Kilchrohane.
Great to play for sets in the guards van of a steam train heading back down to Swanage!
I love a good, easy-paced ceilidhe dance, and fortunately there are a couple of places around here that hold such dances. We also have Scottish Country dances, contras, Cajun and ballroom dancing just a short driving distance away--southern New England is blessed with lots of opportunities to dance. Unfortunately, my wife has some degenerative problems with her back, so she cannot dance like she used to.
Until you have danced a set, or stripped the willow, or done your sevens and threes, you really don't know what this music is really about.
Until about 7 years ago I had been vaguely aware of traditional Irish music but didn't pay it much attention - I was very involved in other areas of music.
Then my wife took up set dancing, I watched it and immediately saw the deep connection - symbiosis - between the music and dance. That's how it all started for me. I still can't dance, or sing, but I do play The Music a bit - and for set dancers whenever I get the chance.
...and yes Jusa Nutter and Rev, I was there with ya in the mosh pit!
Thanks benhall for the extra grammar, glad to see there's someone as neurotic as I am about it.
I wouldn't mind the Funky Chicken or a Peruvian War Dance either, Steve! Classic!
Heresy notwithstanding, um...is it OK to confess I may have dropped a few breakdance moves from my early 1980's days while feeling the music? Oops, too late.
How about daiv's Grandma? HA! Great stuff.
Well folks, yes indeed. Let's all get our groove things on. I think that talking the style of sean-nos, the heel, the jump, etc. and allowing some leeway by the vaguely knowledgeable yet respectful can increase enjoyment of the music. Also, it can show listeners how to take the wise advice: “STOP WASTING THIS GOOD MUSIC!”
Or, heck, just let the college kids do the can-can, that's a riot. Loving it all, thanks!
Yes dear Pete, God bless you Reverend, I definitely felt that... I've also seen it with those 'new wave' set dancers, you know, who only know the explosion of interest that swept over like a tsunami in the 80's and who dance that wade, bashing everything out and wanting everything fast and furious, loud and exaggerated... I hate saying this, as some will no doubt smirk, but there's nothing like an 'old-time' set, not rushed and manic and very, very social and welcoming. With some of the 'modern' ways the sets can at times feel like a competition themselves, or a clique when you join in and someone says they're saving it for someone. Those sorts are usually the kind that clamber to be nearest the band, at the 'top of the hall'. I've also seen the band smirk when they came running to clacketty-clack-clack-clack all over their lovely music...
Something is immediately wrong when the discussion is about who is and isn't a 'dancer'... I like dancing with 'regular' folk more than those that think of themselves in some special light as a 'dancer'. I'd add to that description, in too many cases, 'pain in the arse' too. These so called self-named 'dancers' are also the sort who tend to judge and push and direct, often wrongly, and have a problem just being relaxed, taking it far too seriously. To me there is something wrong when, as an example, in R.S.C.D.S. (Royal Scottish Country Dance) they have to keep reminding people to SMILE!!! That sort of grimace has always made me feel very uncomfortable... Mostly, in my experience with 'village' or 'country' dance, meaning from the earth, you never have to tell people to smile, it comes naturally, here and there, and not fixed like Batman's nemesis Joker's...or a clown...
Some of the best experiences I've had playing for dance were akin to ClearDrops description, playing for the happy and appreciative clueless. I used to do regular dancers for Freshers week, 100s would attend, and what a joy that was. Ain't youth wonderful, lovely folk. We all had a great time and nothing could possibly be taken too seriously. They were game for anything and they were full of laughter and smiles and I guess because we liked them, they liked us back. Most of them hadn't any idea of what we were putting them through, though I suspect some will have had a little taste as children. Equally, I've done charity dances and dances for children, and the same can be said, great folk.
The worst dance I can that comes to mind right now was full of people who thought they knew what it was all about. 'All about' is fit, it was one of those damned Saint Paddy's Day dances, for an Irish community, in a hall that was illegally over full, with a third of those about being drunk and doing more bouncing off of each other and the floor than dancing. The caller tried to do walk-throughs, quick and out of consideration for the many new people about. The jerks who thought they knew-it-all shouting "We don't need any lessons. Get on with it!" So, they gave up and it was a zoo... We had the visiting dance school too, who took up 45 minutes of time preparing and doing their solos, and with the bad boom box and awful canned music. And ~ the damned singers...mostly country western and awful... We got paid really good money for that dance, but we turned them down the next year, swearing off ever subjecting ourselves or our music to that kind of abuse again. There are always better choices. Give me freshers anyday, good people, a good laugh, a good time was had by all, great craic...
Ceolachan, I think it is the "we don't need any lessons" folks who are being celebrated here. The spontaneous, unrestricted movement to the rhythm that liberates the soul without the shackles of rules and form. The zoo.
Jussa Nutter Eejit's note above about the two camps is pretty much spot on: it just needs to allow some shades of grey.
Last weekend I was busking as usual in front of the farmers market with my girly playing the box. Theres a homeless guy I see around downtown with a big Newfoundland tattoo on his arm. Ive never spoken to him. About 10 am he walks by and starts talking to us, difficult to make out what he's saying but I sussed out that he used to play a one row four stop melodeon. We played a bunch of jigs and he started dancing to em. He was good! He actually knew the steps and was quite a good dancer, so much so that people were crowding around and watching. He had a bottle and some other junk in his hands while he did it so it was quite a sight to behold. We got quite a few tips that day, so I bought him a good lunch. You never can judge people....
This fits in with the current "have it or you don't" thread. Nearly every human has some dancing ability, they just don't use it enough. And I fully agree with ceolachan. I prefer a nice leisurely pace with people who are willing to follow the structure of a social dance. This banging through a set dance like it was aerobic exercises, or hopping around with no structure, just leaves me cold. A pleasant social dance, which allows all, young and old, to participate, is the best.
On the other hand, no one is advocating a mosh pit, for heavens' sakes. What I'm getting at is NOT a mosh pit of respectless drunken yabos.
What I'm talking about is spontaneous, improvised sean-nos dance. This is what I'm doing. I've found that is has a HUGE potential. People like it, they want to do it, they ask me about it when they see me. I show them what I'm doing, I'm battering the floor to the beat with heels and tiny hops, and off they go.
You don't have to remember complex set patterns, it's individualistic yet can be done together, it's improvisational so it's accessible to anyone and with a small amount of instruction they can look as silly as I do and be just as happy and joyous.
Now I hope everyone can appreciate what it is I’m talking about here and attempt to release their dreaded fears. You’d have thought I proposed bringing sheet music to a session or something. Heavens.
I love the many divergent roads that brought so many of us to this common love; from Reverend's head-banging rage against the machine's mosh pits, to SWFL's break-dancing electric boogaloo boogie down dance moves. It is a beautiful thing.
Meanwhile Rev's comments about nazi-Irish dance schools are spot on - I've seen LA street gangs with less concern about turf control. God forbid you should grow up in one town's dance school then try and move to another town controlled by a rival gang. "Yo, once you in our steppin' school, you in fo' life bee-otch."
My sister in-law danced for many years - always seemed to come in second in every competition. Eventually somebody spilled the beans and told her why - she was Brazilian - no judge was gonna ever gonna give it to her over a freckle-faced Irish girl. That was in the SF bay area. Simply tragic.
I always dance. If I don't know the tune (which is often) I get up and dance. I'm not properly trained in Irish (my only formal dance training is in African) but I know the essentials and once 1 person starts dancing, so does everyone else. It's part of the wonderful tradition.
"Ceolachan, I think it is the "we don't need any lessons" folks who are being celebrated here. The spontaneous, unrestricted movement to the rhythm that liberates the soul without the shackles of rules and form. The zoo." ~ grego
Have you been following what I'd said? I have had great pleasure out of those who are 'open' and can celebrate. The "we don't need any lessons" sorts, in my experience, are basically another species of inconsiderate a*sholes. They 'think' they already have it all down and proceed to ruin it for others, experienced and novice alike, by pushing, stumbling, stepping on and generally being rude and loud, like doing the shouting while others might be seeking some basic direction, in say a Kerry Set or Seige of Ennis...
"The spontaneous, unrestricted movement to the rhythm that liberates the soul without the shackles of rules and form." ~ grego
Yes careening into others, including the musicians, like the city slickers that almost destroyed a lovely country dance as they ended up smashing into the musicians and almost destroying a couple of instruments and a few toes. Well Grego, if that's your idea of fun, you can keep it as far away from anything I'm involved in as you can ~ PLEASE!!! Go join a circle dance group and take your darabuka with you... I prefer more considerate people, with some concept of what 'community' is about, rather than the loose cannons you describe, who, also in my experience, tend to be pretty rhythmless as well as clueless on the whole about music, dance or 'tradition'... There are places for all sorts, but the sort you've described, I run a mile when I see them coming. They ruin it for most others, including me...but they are so wrapped up in themselves they just don't see it, it is all about them...
I'm with Al Brown and Ceolachan on this one. (But then I'm in it for the dancing as much as anything). Unless you've danced a set or stripped the willow you won't appreciate what's going on. "The spontaneous, unrestricted movement to the rhythm" - yeah. Like the kids do to trance or house? That's the worst form of anarchism, and no kind of advertisement for itself. When you have a proper dance set going, even a simple one, it's a celebration of the group, and its co-ordination and co-operation. I'd love it if more kids got the hang of organised dancing. But you can't force it on people. Somehow the ceilis keep on going!
Kelly ....Wish we knew where you lived I am sure that between us (Ceol et al ) could maybe find you a set dance class.
The idea that dancing has to be done at a 'ceilis ' and not a pub, outside on the grass or in your kitchen or anywhere else you want is a relatively new development.
I could wax lyrical about the influence of the Catholic Church on dancing and the invention of the Ceilidh dancing in the 19th century but life is far too short.( Lets have big dances so they have to be in the church hall so the priest can keep an eye out for immorality )
You could learn sets suitable for dancing at the session never go to a Ceilidh at all
Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Something about this thread made me think about dancing:
“What Is It To You Anyway?!”
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15343/comments#comment316848
So the crime in question here is how the music has been removed from dancing, or vice versa.
...and I mean, dancing for EVERYONE.
The problem here, in America, is that no one thinks anyone should dance to this music unless you are one of two things:
1) A girl with sequins and impossibly made up hair-dos on St. Patty's day, doing formalized step dancing. "Did you know they have a school for that, Doris?" "Oh, you don't say? Well, what do they do the other 364 days of the year?" Sigh.
2) An adult male in tights on a stage with smoke machines and laser lights. Thanks Flatley.
It's my personal mission to destroy these concepts wherever they are found and to show people that everyone can dance to it, and no, you don't have to worry about the police arresting you for not doing it ‘right’.
Let's party. Boogie woogie oogie. I don’t know how to dance and I don’t care. I do know how to batter the floor with my heel and my foot in time to the music and I show everyone I see at sessions while doing my best ‘drunk man in pub shuffling sean-nos’ fakery.
Or, at least, that’s my new resolution, to dance, dance, dance!
Don’t you feel it? I feel it every time! I don’t know how I stay still!
…and yet, I fall victim to it too:
“Oh no! I can’t get up and dance, I don’t know what I’m doing!”
It’s tough to fight, but I am resolved to destroy that thought not only in myself but in everyone I meet, and it also helps to not care if you make an ass out yourself. Others will follow.
So please. I know it’s probably heretical and anathema to advocate the untrained to dance to Irish music, but we need to encourage dance, and I don’t mean the competition style or the couples set dancing, I mean the old drunk man in the pub who just has to get up and shimmy around because it feels so good and darn it, he’s got the beat! The wee ones will do it, the auld ladies, even the 20-somethings will do it too if we’re all doing it.
This music has such tremendous rhythm and beat to it. How does everyone stay still? Why do you stay still? When I hear it I can’t stop moving.
Oh well, preaching over. Dance on, folks.
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Two things - there is a couple of great clips on youtube - one is called Philadelphia Irish, I believe, where a group of folks get up and start step dancing to the music provided by the local session - it looks like a blast and everyone is having a great time.
Secondly, I used to play in a pub style band in the South SF bay area ages ago, and we were fortunate to get some choice gigs where Irish Mayors would come and visit American "sister cities" and the whole local Irish community would turn out for the party. Without exception, by the third set of tunes or songs, many folks would be up and dancing - nothing formal - just hopping and bopping about for the simple joy in it. Even though we were hired to play, it didn't feel like a gig anymore - it was a great delight to make that sort of connection with the folks dancing. Some of the best times I have ever had making music.
Once in a great while somebody will start up dancing at one of our sessions - I think it's wonderful, and I wish it would happen more often.
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Thanks! Can't find that clip, eh? Neither can I, 118 hits on You Tube for Philadelphia Irish:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Philadelphia+Irish&search=Search
In Naples, FL down the coast lives a great concertina player and dance teacher, lived in Chicago for years. She's trying to get a ceili together with the local Irish American club and I'll get a chance to play for them then should it come off. She's hoping to make it a monthly event. She also does some set dance classes at a local senior citizens' condo complex.
Sean nos seems more accessible, however. Not sure if that's the right word. People see it and sort of think they could do it. Maybe it's because I'm an absolute rank novice so I stink. I'd wager that has something to do with it. It's improvisational nature also attracts folks.
The stuff in question. This is not a advertisement, just using them as a fine example:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4975058330614262777
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Its' not it's!
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I want to spend the rest of my life playing in sessions and things, and not really for dancers unless someone asks me to, which is not going to be very often in Kernow (though it has happened!). That's just me, but equally I just don't want to lose sight of the fact that our music evolved for dancers and that sessions and supergroups came later. I love sessions and supergroups but the dance bit is cast in stone for me, which is one reason I don't like it when someone or other affects to turn ITM into some kind of exclusive arty-farty thing which must only be regarded as being "well done" if you have virtuoso fiddlers with every ornament in the book down to a tee, or super-slick guitar accompanists, or bodhranistas who play tunes on the bloody thing. I love a really good, earthy, rough-round-the-edges sound in our sessions with that lovely, elusive bit of lift. Don't get it as often as I'd wish but it's great when we do get it. I reckon that anyone inclined to dance would like that as well. In fact, on our better nights we've had people jigging dangerously around the pub! If you want super-ethereal challenge, you can have Bach or Beethoven. If you want earthy, dancy good humour, you can have ITM. Or Bach or Beethoven!
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I hate dancing. But I love this music. Am I evil?
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by timmy!
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
"Its' not it's"
No. It's "its". i.e. with no apostrophe at all.
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Ok - not only did I have the title wrong, the clip wasn't nearly as good as I remember it - but here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YrY81gQf2k
It doesn't capture the spontaneous joy that you were talking about - but it still looks like a good time...
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I don't know. It's a bit like that travel reporter who suggested tourists should clink their spare change against their Guinness bottles in time to the music when they find themselves in a pub with a session.
It's one thing when people know the basics of Irish dancing, but pogoing around at random is a bit off-putting imho. However, whatever consenting adults want to do in the privacy of their own pub...
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by grego
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
And those dancers on your Youtube clip have learned the basic step, God bless 'em.
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by grego
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
There's nothing quite like watching a toddler listening to the music - they can't help but dance!
Unfortunately, I think you're right, SWFL. Even the majority of step dancers that I have run into really don't like the music. They'd just assume dance to Lorena McKennitt or something, as long as it has a noticeable beat.
I was playing for a dance school once, and had a student ask me why I played this music. I said "because I love it", and she just couldn't get that through her head. "You LIKE this stuff?!?" I'm not saying that about all step dancers, BTW. But I have found that a majority of them seem to think that way - but then again, if you look at the general demographic - teenage girls - it's not going to be what their friends like, so they're not going to like it. (Heck, even *I* didn't like it much when I first heard it - too "twangy" for my tastes... Heh... Now I'm a banjo player! LOL)
And don't get me started about step dancing in general - it's a competitive sport, not an art form. It drives me batty on occasion. Especially the "dance moms" - they're worse than "little league fathers".
Pete
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by Reverend
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
They can pogo around at random for me, or do a Peruvian war-dance or the funky chicken for all I care, as long as we're all having fun and they don't knock my bloody pint over!
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
The dancing in the video clip above was a once-off visit by some step-dancers who were visiting the area and stopped into the Shanachie in Ambler, Pa. However, the session at this pub is very welcoming to dancers of all sorts (not the falling-down drunk ones however) and has had ceili dancers, set dancers and step dancers get up and dance spontaneously on several occasions. The two anchors of the session have played for ceilidhs for years all over the Philadelphia area and feel that dancing adds another dimension to this session. As I've mentioned in other threads they also welcome singers. It is an excellent session, running every Tuesday without fail and has seen many visiting musicians who've reported that they read about it on this website. I was told a great anecdote by Aidan Vaughan, a well-know sean nos/set dancer, that Junior Crehan once said at a session at Gleeson's "Would you ever get up and dance and stop wasting this good music?" Point well taken!
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by moria enya
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Let's face it SWFL, there will be two camps on this thread; those like ye and me, weened deep in the mosh pits of Pogues and Ramones concerts; we, who vibrate at the sound of any sweet groove; us for whom the music is a physical experience - against those that want their sessions to be a zen-like, deeply meditative, almost prayer like musical experience - without interuptions from punters, dancers, singers, etc.
And Moria's quote from Aidan Vaughan perfectly sums it up!
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
"It's dance music!" ~ I SAY, IT'S DANCE MUSIC!!! Even the terms for the two forms that make up the largest percentage of Irish music were words that referred to dance and dancing ~ 'jig' & 'reel' ~ for starters. One can choose to ignore that, but it is usually evident in the results, typical 'session' playing, lacking the lift and interest that signifies the 'dance' in the melodies. But hey, if you want to play it flat out and monotonous, who am I to p*ss on your fire? ~ ssssssssss!!!
However, I can undestand how some dance and dancers can cause one to want to put as much space between themselves and what some folks present as 'dance'... I know I too find some versions downright scary...weird...and at times just too dogmatic and pompous. And those damned precosious little kiddies with their pushy parents...alone or in groups ~ AAAAAA!!! Many a 'dance' related event we have avoided where that was a likely addition... For example, group step dancers, in those costumes, and ringlets, and who insist on bringing their own backing tracks, some shight recording on am additionally bad sounding boom box... I'd much rather Sumo wrestling, or a live brass band concert...or to stay at home with a nice bottle of single malt Scotch listening to 'The Pogues'...
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Somewhere, sometime, in a universe far far away, a friend and I (whistle and fiddle) provided music fer a St Patrick's Night green beer Uni Union bash. We had a chorus line of 'em ('em being fun loving slightly inebriated uni students) under a tree outside the Uni bar all linked together can-canning to our jigs. We was all into it together. It was trerrific.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
It's unusual at our sessions or gigs when someone *isn't* moved to get up and dance. Kids just do it, regardless of the setting or who's watching. Sometimes a foursome of grown ups gets up and does a set. And there's a lovely elderly couple who dance wherever we play--in the pubs, on the street, at the grocery store. They always ask for a waltz to end on, and I'm happy to oblige.
Last year we played for an outdoor wedding reception, and the party went on late into the night. The bride and groom did their twirl around the backyard, and then the lithesome bridesmaids all started shimmying in their slinky dresses to the tunes. They grooved to jigs and reels for hours. Thoroughly enjoyable (and I played with my eyes wide open that night).
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
"There's nothing quite like watching a toddler listening to the music - they can't help but dance!"
A year or so in Belgium I watched my 2-year old granddaughter dancing to the music of a Mozart piano concerto being played on the TV by Daniel Barenboim.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
"Did you know they have a school for that, Doris?" "Oh, you don't say? Well what do they do for the other 364 days of the year?"
Heh heh heh heh, that brings the voices of Graham Chapman and Terry Jones' old female roles back to life for me. Aaaah, the good old gals of Monty Python.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by MR.
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
One of my great pleasures is while busking, watching passersby start to bounce and skip; with the odd full-scale breakout into a little dance performance.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Another great pleasure, MartySmith, was meeting Graham Chapman and watching him do an impromptu performance for a youth group, and spend twenty minutes talking to a handicapped lad with no chance of any publicity for the effort.
He also told me the story behind his acceptance of the Daily Mirror award.........
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
i agree, swfl.
they didnt used to know what they were doing. as my grandma said of the dancers of her youth, "they made it all up!"
keeping that in mind, i have stuck some tacks in an old pair of shoes and grabbed a board in the garage. i just lilt the tune in my head and listen to my shoes click away.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by daiv
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Well, JNE, for me, it was more like the mosh pits of Ministry and Rage Against The Machine. But I'm there with ya, my friend. Dancing was something that I did a lot of - mostly to meet girls (and trust me, it worked!) But there's nothing better than moving to the groove! I actually get physically involved when I'm playing a particularly groovy session. It makes me want to dance!
And don't get me wrong! I love it when people get up and dance spontaneously to the music! And I love it when a set dance ensues, because unlike step dancers, the set dancers tend to enjoy the music! And I like it when there's step dancers at sessions and performances too, because it generally adds to the energy in the room!
But my overall impression of step dancing in this day and age is not a favorable one. The competitive nature of it, and the fact that most of them could care less about what music they're dancing to, has led me to believe that it isn't part of an art form any more. People seem to do it because they've been trained to do it, by cloned schools, with TCRG teachers that are only interested in developing "champion" dancers... It has a lot to answer for, in my opinion!
The music and the dance should be hand in hand, but they're staring at each other from across the room, jealously thinking of how they used to be a great couple, but only connected out of a nebulous necessity, like a prom queen who had to go to the dance with the captain of the football team because that's the way it's done, not because they care for each other... Sigh.
(It just occurred to me that the previous analogy might be lost on our European friends... sorry)
Pete
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Hear hear for the sets.
Great to see people dancing sets in the pub at Kilchrohane.
Great to play for sets in the guards van of a steam train heading back down to Swanage!
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Btw, don't forget that there are other dance traditions, particularly in France. Also makes for excellent times :D
Check out a few videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ef52ZOvdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR2In7pprfM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=485FvgJtDbk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzN2JxHH8ys
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Tirno
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I love a good, easy-paced ceilidhe dance, and fortunately there are a couple of places around here that hold such dances. We also have Scottish Country dances, contras, Cajun and ballroom dancing just a short driving distance away--southern New England is blessed with lots of opportunities to dance. Unfortunately, my wife has some degenerative problems with her back, so she cannot dance like she used to.
Until you have danced a set, or stripped the willow, or done your sevens and threes, you really don't know what this music is really about.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Until about 7 years ago I had been vaguely aware of traditional Irish music but didn't pay it much attention - I was very involved in other areas of music.
Then my wife took up set dancing, I watched it and immediately saw the deep connection - symbiosis - between the music and dance. That's how it all started for me. I still can't dance, or sing, but I do play The Music a bit - and for set dancers whenever I get the chance.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Fantastic everyone, thanks for your thoughts!
...and yes Jusa Nutter and Rev, I was there with ya in the mosh pit!
Thanks benhall for the extra grammar, glad to see there's someone as neurotic as I am about it.
I wouldn't mind the Funky Chicken or a Peruvian War Dance either, Steve! Classic!
Heresy notwithstanding, um...is it OK to confess I may have dropped a few breakdance moves from my early 1980's days while feeling the music? Oops, too late.
How about daiv's Grandma? HA! Great stuff.
Well folks, yes indeed. Let's all get our groove things on. I think that talking the style of sean-nos, the heel, the jump, etc. and allowing some leeway by the vaguely knowledgeable yet respectful can increase enjoyment of the music. Also, it can show listeners how to take the wise advice: “STOP WASTING THIS GOOD MUSIC!”
Or, heck, just let the college kids do the can-can, that's a riot. Loving it all, thanks!
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Ah Clear Drops, was that you?
Yes dear Pete, God bless you Reverend, I definitely felt that... I've also seen it with those 'new wave' set dancers, you know, who only know the explosion of interest that swept over like a tsunami in the 80's and who dance that wade, bashing everything out and wanting everything fast and furious, loud and exaggerated... I hate saying this, as some will no doubt smirk, but there's nothing like an 'old-time' set, not rushed and manic and very, very social and welcoming. With some of the 'modern' ways the sets can at times feel like a competition themselves, or a clique when you join in and someone says they're saving it for someone. Those sorts are usually the kind that clamber to be nearest the band, at the 'top of the hall'. I've also seen the band smirk when they came running to clacketty-clack-clack-clack all over their lovely music...
Something is immediately wrong when the discussion is about who is and isn't a 'dancer'... I like dancing with 'regular' folk more than those that think of themselves in some special light as a 'dancer'. I'd add to that description, in too many cases, 'pain in the arse' too. These so called self-named 'dancers' are also the sort who tend to judge and push and direct, often wrongly, and have a problem just being relaxed, taking it far too seriously. To me there is something wrong when, as an example, in R.S.C.D.S. (Royal Scottish Country Dance) they have to keep reminding people to SMILE!!! That sort of grimace has always made me feel very uncomfortable... Mostly, in my experience with 'village' or 'country' dance, meaning from the earth, you never have to tell people to smile, it comes naturally, here and there, and not fixed like Batman's nemesis Joker's...or a clown...
Some of the best experiences I've had playing for dance were akin to ClearDrops description, playing for the happy and appreciative clueless. I used to do regular dancers for Freshers week, 100s would attend, and what a joy that was. Ain't youth wonderful, lovely folk. We all had a great time and nothing could possibly be taken too seriously. They were game for anything and they were full of laughter and smiles and I guess because we liked them, they liked us back. Most of them hadn't any idea of what we were putting them through, though I suspect some will have had a little taste as children. Equally, I've done charity dances and dances for children, and the same can be said, great folk.
The worst dance I can that comes to mind right now was full of people who thought they knew what it was all about. 'All about' is fit, it was one of those damned Saint Paddy's Day dances, for an Irish community, in a hall that was illegally over full, with a third of those about being drunk and doing more bouncing off of each other and the floor than dancing. The caller tried to do walk-throughs, quick and out of consideration for the many new people about. The jerks who thought they knew-it-all shouting "We don't need any lessons. Get on with it!" So, they gave up and it was a zoo... We had the visiting dance school too, who took up 45 minutes of time preparing and doing their solos, and with the bad boom box and awful canned music. And ~ the damned singers...mostly country western and awful... We got paid really good money for that dance, but we turned them down the next year, swearing off ever subjecting ourselves or our music to that kind of abuse again. There are always better choices. Give me freshers anyday, good people, a good laugh, a good time was had by all, great craic...
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Ceolachan, I think it is the "we don't need any lessons" folks who are being celebrated here. The spontaneous, unrestricted movement to the rhythm that liberates the soul without the shackles of rules and form. The zoo.
Jussa Nutter Eejit's note above about the two camps is pretty much spot on: it just needs to allow some shades of grey.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by grego
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Last weekend I was busking as usual in front of the farmers market with my girly playing the box. Theres a homeless guy I see around downtown with a big Newfoundland tattoo on his arm. Ive never spoken to him. About 10 am he walks by and starts talking to us, difficult to make out what he's saying but I sussed out that he used to play a one row four stop melodeon. We played a bunch of jigs and he started dancing to em. He was good! He actually knew the steps and was quite a good dancer, so much so that people were crowding around and watching. He had a bottle and some other junk in his hands while he did it so it was quite a sight to behold. We got quite a few tips that day, so I bought him a good lunch. You never can judge people....
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Lovely story, Splendid. The farmer's market by Copp's Coliseum was it?
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by grego
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
This fits in with the current "have it or you don't" thread. Nearly every human has some dancing ability, they just don't use it enough. And I fully agree with ceolachan. I prefer a nice leisurely pace with people who are willing to follow the structure of a social dance. This banging through a set dance like it was aerobic exercises, or hopping around with no structure, just leaves me cold. A pleasant social dance, which allows all, young and old, to participate, is the best.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Enforced structure is what turns some off.
On the other hand, no one is advocating a mosh pit, for heavens' sakes. What I'm getting at is NOT a mosh pit of respectless drunken yabos.
What I'm talking about is spontaneous, improvised sean-nos dance. This is what I'm doing. I've found that is has a HUGE potential. People like it, they want to do it, they ask me about it when they see me. I show them what I'm doing, I'm battering the floor to the beat with heels and tiny hops, and off they go.
You don't have to remember complex set patterns, it's individualistic yet can be done together, it's improvisational so it's accessible to anyone and with a small amount of instruction they can look as silly as I do and be just as happy and joyous.
Now I hope everyone can appreciate what it is I’m talking about here and attempt to release their dreaded fears. You’d have thought I proposed bringing sheet music to a session or something. Heavens.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I love the many divergent roads that brought so many of us to this common love; from Reverend's head-banging rage against the machine's mosh pits, to SWFL's break-dancing electric boogaloo boogie down dance moves. It is a beautiful thing.
Meanwhile Rev's comments about nazi-Irish dance schools are spot on - I've seen LA street gangs with less concern about turf control. God forbid you should grow up in one town's dance school then try and move to another town controlled by a rival gang. "Yo, once you in our steppin' school, you in fo' life bee-otch."
My sister in-law danced for many years - always seemed to come in second in every competition. Eventually somebody spilled the beans and told her why - she was Brazilian - no judge was gonna ever gonna give it to her over a freckle-faced Irish girl. That was in the SF bay area. Simply tragic.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I dunno. Sounds like bodhran playing to me...
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by grego
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I meant that in reference to improvised sean nos dance. Not nazi-Irish dance schools.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by grego
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Grego, if you could get every bodhran player to sean-nos dance instead I bet you'd be overwhelmed by the gratitude.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Well, from the bodhran haters, that is.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
There's a thought.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by grego
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I always dance. If I don't know the tune (which is often) I get up and dance. I'm not properly trained in Irish (my only formal dance training is in African) but I know the essentials and once 1 person starts dancing, so does everyone else. It's part of the wonderful tradition.
And it keeps the musicians in time.
# Posted on October 2nd 2007 by mehitabel23
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
grego, swfl--now if we could just get all the bodhran dancers to dance on the bodhrans with tacks in their shoes! that would be music to my ears.
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by daiv
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
"Ceolachan, I think it is the "we don't need any lessons" folks who are being celebrated here. The spontaneous, unrestricted movement to the rhythm that liberates the soul without the shackles of rules and form. The zoo." ~ grego
Have you been following what I'd said? I have had great pleasure out of those who are 'open' and can celebrate. The "we don't need any lessons" sorts, in my experience, are basically another species of inconsiderate a*sholes. They 'think' they already have it all down and proceed to ruin it for others, experienced and novice alike, by pushing, stumbling, stepping on and generally being rude and loud, like doing the shouting while others might be seeking some basic direction, in say a Kerry Set or Seige of Ennis...
"The spontaneous, unrestricted movement to the rhythm that liberates the soul without the shackles of rules and form." ~ grego
Yes careening into others, including the musicians, like the city slickers that almost destroyed a lovely country dance as they ended up smashing into the musicians and almost destroying a couple of instruments and a few toes. Well Grego, if that's your idea of fun, you can keep it as far away from anything I'm involved in as you can ~ PLEASE!!! Go join a circle dance group and take your darabuka with you... I prefer more considerate people, with some concept of what 'community' is about, rather than the loose cannons you describe, who, also in my experience, tend to be pretty rhythmless as well as clueless on the whole about music, dance or 'tradition'... There are places for all sorts, but the sort you've described, I run a mile when I see them coming. They ruin it for most others, including me...but they are so wrapped up in themselves they just don't see it, it is all about them...
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by ceolachan
Even good sean nos stepping comes from discipline, understanding and consideration, not chaos...
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
I'm with Al Brown and Ceolachan on this one. (But then I'm in it for the dancing as much as anything). Unless you've danced a set or stripped the willow you won't appreciate what's going on. "The spontaneous, unrestricted movement to the rhythm" - yeah. Like the kids do to trance or house? That's the worst form of anarchism, and no kind of advertisement for itself. When you have a proper dance set going, even a simple one, it's a celebration of the group, and its co-ordination and co-operation. I'd love it if more kids got the hang of organised dancing. But you can't force it on people. Somehow the ceilis keep on going!
# Posted on October 3rd 2007 by Innocent Bystander
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
Kelly ....Wish we knew where you lived I am sure that between us (Ceol et al ) could maybe find you a set dance class.
The idea that dancing has to be done at a 'ceilis ' and not a pub, outside on the grass or in your kitchen or anywhere else you want is a relatively new development.
I could wax lyrical about the influence of the Catholic Church on dancing and the invention of the Ceilidh dancing in the 19th century but life is far too short.( Lets have big dances so they have to be in the church hall so the priest can keep an eye out for immorality )
You could learn sets suitable for dancing at the session never go to a Ceilidh at all
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Preaching the Gospel of Dance
whoops wrong thread
# Posted on December 8th 2007 by bazouki dave