Hi, I was wondering if greenman, or any of the other drummers on the forum could explain something for me. I am confused by how certain tones, for example, the snare sound, are achieved on a bodhran? Is it electronic,... or with a brush-ended tipper, or something concocted in a studio, or sampled and triggered.
It seemed like such a simple instrument that I was reluctant to take it up, but the more I study it and develop my technique, the more complex it becomes. Then, when I listen to Kila for the first time as I did today, I stop and say - whoa, there are methods of playing this drum that I have no clue about. Zina mentioned the other day how Ringo McDonagh's playing in fact resembles an entire drumkit. Is this true?... And he does it all done with one acoustic drum, a mic, a tipper and a bare hand...
I've seen people using brushes to get this effect, and I think it was the guy from Easy Club that had the idea. Easy Club were a Scottish Band that did jazzy arrangements of Trad material here in the UK in the 80's. http://www.jackevans.net/dadgad.html
Hello Charlie and All! Johnny "Ringo" McDonagh's playing is indeed wonderful. I've heard him on Mary Bergin recordings (whistles) and I love the way he plays. Obviously he doesn't really sound like he's playing a full drumkit but I think I know what Zina might have meant. Have a listen and see what you think...
Snare sound? That might be got by using what's sometimes called a hot-rod tipper (probably a trade name). I made one myself cos I saw someone using it and I liked it. It's a bunch of thin rods (got mine from a model-makers shop) taped or lashed together in the middle (or to taste). Cut them to size, sand off the ends to make a smooth rounded surface. Then you'll find you get a snare-ish sound. I've not tried brushes but I've heard them and they can sound snarey, too.
I usually take three tippers out with me now - a straight thin heavy stick, the roddy stick, and a tipper with thick ends covered with chamois leather (U use to dry your car with). The latter has less of the stick sound, more of the drum.
I used to get carried away and take a bag of tippers out with me but it got a bit silly! Those three cover all the sounds I really might need in a session. The straight one's the one I use mostly, the others as the tune or combination of other instruments calls for.
Thanks mates! I'm glad I asked, I learned something... there's no such thing as a dumb question, (only dumb questioners)..
Much better idea to carry those distinct tipper styles than three or four drums,... not that I do, I just hear of players doing this more and more, usually with a word of derisiveness by the more experienced drummers. Actually, I am in need of all three tipper styles you've described. And I especially like the concept of leather covers on the beater. Brilliant!
My thought on the different sounds, especially by the "best" players" is the EFFORT they put into precision. A novice such as myself is more apt to,... how can I say it, ... to "slide" as I changes tones, (I'm talking mostly about the left hand, flesh side hand, obviously) but also a laziness in moving the tipper to various strike points can result in muddled notes and a lack of good bodhran articulation. I'd think that to achieve the drumset effect, it might be a good idea to have 6 or more playing positions that you can hit perfectly, and rapidly.
What I'm comparing this to in my mind is a good "double-bass" fiddle player. There are times they slide on the strings, but mostly, they make great effort to be precise and accurate in their note formation.
What do you think about this as a bodhran technique to aspire to?
I have used a similar tipper for a few years. I made it by getting a package of bamboo shish-kabab (sp?) sticks, glueing them together in the middle, leaving the ends loose. Then sanding the tips round. One package can make about 3 tippers for about $1. sell the other two and triple your investment.
Mate of mine uses a bunch of barbecue sticks with the sharp end cut off [mores the pity hee hee] taped up with some plumbers tape. Also uses a jazz brush.
I must admit, though, that I don't like the sound. I much prefer the bodhr
I try and get the bodhran player to use snare brush for the slower waltzes just to fill in a bit more - you are limited in what you can do with really slow stuff.
For that reason I prefer snare drum to goat if there is any old-time to be played.
I think I'll go to the "craft's" shop and look through their stock of dowl material for starters. I am interested in some longer tippers, the standard size seems to be about 8 3/4" but length's up to 10-12" work great. I've discovered this using cut off drumsticks. But if I care to upgrade, where can I obtain an ebony or rosewood rod?
I have heard about drummers using split-sticks and I wondered what they were? I am looking for a split design that is heaver than a bundle of rods, - more like a true split, such as the old fashioned clothes pins - except about 11" long.... I like the drum sound that matches a hard "click" super-imposed over the deep drum beat... I believe it is actually wood-on-wood that would be the result from a split tipper, and not the click of the tipper as it glances/strikes the skin, but I could be wrong....
Greenman, or anyone, do you know the sound I'm asking about?
(I will 2nd the previous remark about "just using a snare drum" instead of truing to make a bodhran impersonate a snare drum).... but still, there IS a way of striking the muted drum that really can produce a close approximation..... It's amazing!
The drummer in the Cork group North Cregg uses a snare drum. On the CD notes of their album mi.da:za (no typo -- that's the name of the CD), the drummer is listed as "Martin Leahy - snare drum, percussion". Not a bad album.
Thanks... I have tried a "goatwacker" before... (what a name!) The wood I have mine in is cocabola. Beautiful, and fairly heavy, but it's not exactly right for me...
That is actually one of the most complicated elements of drumming,... finding the right tipper. I have about a dozen and none are perfect - and some are terrible. The closest I have to perfect right now is Kirk Witmers "thumb thumper". I'm left handed and I do like the thumb groove, but the ends are way too large. I've talked to Kirk and asked him to try again on some refinements I have in mind. He also has a limited supply of a wood he calls "corian"... It's a white wood that looks like bone, very dense and hard. He can't make a thumb groove in this wood because he says he doesn't have the right tool, but I think a nice paddle design in corian might be worth trying, plus I just like the wood.
I have some power tools and may try making tippers myself. It's kind of like tying your own flys for flyfishing.... I plan to make them out of drumsticks which come in a huge array of thicknesses, wood types and densities.... If I come up with a functional split end design, and I think I will, I'll send you some.... Until then, I am going to try some oriental chop sticks (seriously) taped together and cut to size. Not the balsa-wood version you get with take-out, but some of the nicer ones that are sold in oriental markets.... Something to think about.... That click/thump sound of Ronan O'Snodaigh of Kila is very desireable!
Thanks. I'll look forward to trying out your woodwork .
You're a man with a mission, Charlie. I like that! Have a great time with your experimenting. Good to know another drummer, too.
Linda
It's nice to have some people to discuss celtic drumming with. Before I found this site I was kind of an island. My interest has kind of taken me by surprise. I bought a Belgarth from Eoin Leonard about three or four years ago after I saw Kevin Connor play his drum with the Chieftans. Have you ever seen him live? Awesome! During a break, Kevin takes his drum out to the edge of the stage and solo's and sings in the spotlight - and it was something I had never seen before. I was shocked! I left thinking "what was that?" I found a drum on the internet but I did not know what to do with it for the first two years. I would mess around, and get discouraged and put it away. Ha, and I have been a drummer for 30 years but I could not get the hang of the bodhran. I don't know what "clicked" but something did, and I discovered how fascinating and complex a percussion instrument it was. Luckily!
So yes, I hope all the drummers out there find this site and care to participate in the discussion. I'm sure it will make us better session players.
Yeah, all the different sounds (not tones) from the bodhran are made by different tippers. Brush tippers sound very brushy to the extent of a jazz brush. Rake tippers are those which are basically a bunch of wooden skewers rounded off and bound together. They sound much like a pick hitting the strings of a guitar. Try using a rake tipper and just playing with a guitarist who's cranking out some chords. Of course, you also have the various designs of wooden tippers, which makes a difference in sound. Slimmer tippers have a more crisp, sharp sound. Fatter, if you will, tippers have a more blunt, resonant sound. Let's not forget the old felt mallet tippers. These have a great base sound to them. Sounds like Ruff could benefit from this website: http://www.mance.com/acebodhrans/boacc.html
BTW, it's Kevin Conneff who plays with the Chieftains.
Also, listen to John Joe Kelly from Flook if you are looking for that drum kit sound. http://www.flook.co.uk
Okay, one more post, because an acquaintance has come up with a new kind of tipper. *grin* Go ahead, try using one and not smirking, or at the very least giving it back to the owner and surreptiously wiping your hand on your jeans. http://www.alltel.net/~bb24459/bp-tipper/
I couldn't imagine what you were talking about, now I agree. BP tippers. My God. Who, where, what, when,..how,.......... They say that every part of a cow (or bull) except the moo is used for something. They must have seen that site too... Try the cow catapult however... it's a hoot. I got 380 pts on my 4th try.
Thank you Aj. I've seen Mance bodhrans before but not his tippers, beautiful, .. functional, but not for the faint of heart or light of wallet... $55 dollars...??? I suppose, if I knew exactly what I wanted.
BTW, on those Mance Grady drums, what do you think about his sliding sound bar?
It's a "timing shot" Linda, as a drummer, you ought to score at least a 300 cow points if you try this advice. ... Load up your cow with a double mouse click and count to five with the same slow tempo every time before you launch him.... Bullseye, (or CowsEye). Yes, I agree with you... the B.P. tippers are to be avoided..... that is insane, and I see that the drummer for Siucra uses one. They are going to be in town in a few weeks, I hope I don't see it on stage, or it will ruin the show for me, I won't be able to quit snickering about it,... he, he, he. Ask Zina about Rocky Mountain Oysters sometime.... equally as bizarre... and only in Colorado.
I had a chance to try out Mance's drums at NEFFA last year. I don't particularly care for his drums, but his innovations are notable. I did like this sweet 14" he had. But, I went for one of his wide rake tippers instead. The slide bar is something to behold. I do just fine without it, but can see where it could come in handy. It is just one of those things. You either like it or you don't. Certainly a creative idea.
That would be ideal, to try one out. I can think of many positives and negatives with the slide bar. In it's favor would be a precision in repetative sounds, (see, i did not use the incorrect word "tones"). It is similar to frets on a guitar, also, maybe, the ability to achieve increased pressure on the drum head. Against it would be the same problem as cross bars... THEY ARE ALWAYS IN THE WAY!!! What is the NEFFA?
and Which maker do you currently perfer.... O'Kane?
Thanks for the link Conan. I saw that thread when I did a search on this site for bodhran. I was wondering what Aj ki preferred because he seemed to arrive with so much background. I need to look up McNeela again. Is that the Irish Maker in the small coastal town... ?
I am familiar with all the makers you listed, and about that many more. I am continually told that the fundamental difference is in the skin. Each maker, - the best ones at least, have a propriatary technique for processing the skins. I like that! I am a little leery of the makers who just go out and purchase commercially processed skins even thought they may be buying the best quality.
I'll mention one maker who I'm interested in and that is Kevin O'Conner in southwestern England. Kevin has been at it a long time and his drums are the best selling brand carried by Custy's, a famous music shop in Central England, I believe. Kevin intrigued me enough with his history and craftsmanship that I have commissioned two drums from him. Unfortunately, it will be at least a two month wait, so i can't report and specifics just yet...
I don't know that Beth actually does use her BP tipper. I do have a new one for her, though -- Barb has now developed a *braided* tipper and gave me one to give to Beth...it even has her name engraved on it. I had to hide it from the dog that lived at the house I was staying at, as, let's face it, it's more or less a rawhide chew toy, c'mon. A braided one - must make the guys' eyes water just thinking about it, really.
Zina, I really like you.... I hope that doesn't make your husband jealous. On the B.P. tipper site, it was the guy, the guitar player part-time boudhranii-saurus for Suicra that conveyed a compliment for the BP tipper, not Beth... She probably thinks he is just being macho, just like my ex-wife said about me the time I tried a plate of Rocky Mountain Oysters at the Denver Buffalo Company... She was right!..Cheers!
Matt? Really? I need to go look at that again, I didn't really read all the way through the site! Heh. Shannon (Matt's wife) is the one who played the BP tipper joke on me. I arrived late for their Lincoln concert, just in time for the last number and the encore. Afterwards, Shannon handed me the tipper and asked me to try it on Beth's bodhran to see what I thought of it. I don't actually play, so I was a little puzzled. I said, well, it's...interesting...and she said, yes, well, guess what it's made of? I said, rawhide? she says, close... and starts laughing. That's where I found out that after using one, you can't quite keep yourself from wiping your hand on your jeans...
I can hardly wait to give the new braided tipper to Beth. She had come up with a new motto for Barb -- something like "what *doesn't* sound better played with a bull penis?" but I think Barb has come up with a new one, something about, um, keeping a beat...*grin*
Charlie, my husband will just assume you have good taste. *snort*
Laughing out loud... ! as always, when you post. Insight and humor. The perfect internet forum moderator.
What I have been wondering, drummers, is what you know of Gerhard Kress... he calls his percussion company, and bodhrans "Gurt Mint".... His claim to fame, and that a large claim, in that Stefan Hannigan plays Gurt Mint drums,... and Stefan is right up there with JoeJohn and the other few in the "elite" ranks.
I'm pushing on this topic because I have found there really are huge differences in handmade, professional instruments. All drums are not the same in quality or performance. I have a lot of information and opinions on this topic and I'm just trying to see if I can "spark" the discussion. Let me know if anybody wants to take up the ball and run with it for a while?
You might ask about Alphonse's drums -- Kevin, does he have a website? -- Beth was saying that a lot of people have really liked his drums, especially people who are in desert climes like ours here in Denver -- he's in Texas, I think, so I think people have said there's less humidity related problems..
Good god, I'm not the moderator at The Session -- we don't actually have a moderator here. It's Jeremy's session, though, and any actual leadership duties fall upon his unfortunate head, thank all the saints, not mine. I already run a session, keeping two going would probably kill me, especially one virtual. I can't even keep the SCTLS files up to date -- it's been ages since we've posted new mp3s to the playlist, and people are starting to hint around. No, I'm just mouthy. Ask anybody, they'll tell you.
Okay, Ruff. Actually, when speaking about the head of the drum you would use "tones". Referring, of course, to the highs and lows produced by the position of the hand on the skin. My drum has a single bar. I use it to suppport the drum on my leg when I am moving around on the back of the skin. Crossbars are more invading, definitely. I play an Aidan McRory tunable bodhran made in Dublin. It is the best and loudest drum I have ever played. The tones you get are clear and crisp. The skin is great. NEFFA is the New England Folk Festival. http://www.neffa.org
Hi Ruff
Padraig McNeela is from the small coastal town of Dublin He's often to be seen selling his wares at festivals the length and breadth of the country. They take a good deal of breaking in but the skins are definitely worth it.
Aiki, you mentioned using the word "tones" when speaking of the different sounds of a bodhr
Can't agree on getting just the same sound from a cheap drum as a high end one. But, I can agree that you can make a cheap drum sound good. My old Pakistani still does a good job if I ever play it.
Tone would refer to the 'notes' of the drum. Hence the diatonic scale - tonic, supertonic, mediant, etc. Just a little mucky-muck music theory here.
A tone has four characteristics: pitch, duration, dynamics, and timbre.
Pitch: The highness and lowness of a tone.
Duration: The length of a tone.
Dynamics: The force or power of a tone. (Loudness or softness).
Timbre: Quality of a tone.
A 'note' represents the Pitch and Duration of a tone.
In essence, a tone embodies a note.
I made a distinction between the 'sound' and the 'tone' of a drum.
A tipper can give the bodhran head a different 'sound' (ie, scratchy, brushy, dull, crisp, etc.). But, 'tones' of the skin are made my pressing or depressing the drum head. Thereby creating a higher or lower pitch. Then, achieving a note.
Rocky Mountain Oysters are a, er, delicacy roundabout these parts, Linda. They're, um, close, er, relatives of the bp tippers, but not usually served in the rather dessicated style that makes the bp tipper something to play with, har har. I've never actually eaten any of them. I don't even know how they cook them (sauted? poached? broiled?) or what they look like (in their cooked form, I mean). Charlie apparently has eaten them, so I'll let him describe the bits I don't know about...taste, consistency, etc.
Aiki,about the tone/note thing sorry I misunderstood - I didn't read your previous posts thoroughly enough! Although, likewise, I didn't say you could get just the same sound from a cheap drum as a decent drum.
It's got Paraic McNeela on there as well, although the pics of the bodhrans aren't representative of the quality instruments he makes.
A friend of mine from Belfast, Rohan Young, makes really beautiful drums - some in a dodecahedron shape! They really are works of art and sound terrific. If anyone wants his number drop me an email.
Hi.... on the Rocky Mountain Oysters thing, they are sliced and fried like a french fry or a fish stick, they are not very good, the mystique comes from the fact that everyone around the table giggles that you were drunk enough to order them... Kind of like escargot, but escargot tastes better.
Linda, I think the #1 bodhran maker in the world today is Brendan White in the Netherlands (Holland). And he is going solely off of reputation... Past reputation. His name is "out there" in the musician circles and he has a snazzy web site. I have a double headed 42cm drum of his. In a brief statement, the quality of manufacture is sorely lacking. It has a good sound but the wood is rough and unfinished, the sanding is uneven, the skins have cosmetic defects. This is not really a "slam" on Brendan, it happens in the real world when you become as busy as he is. When I placed my order, he was in the middle of completing a batch of 32 drums and I bought the last double headed drum available. He completes a batch like this every three weeks. He would not accept any special or custom requests... It's a one man assembly line. I cannot recommend him because of this fact. Craftsmanship is very important to me. And I an willing to pay extra for it. Why should a guitar player, or a bouzouki, or a fiddle or a flute be gorgeous, and finished to perfection and be visually and aestetically perfect and a drum be slammed out on a belt sander and have rough saw marks and numerous cosmetic defects. That works for the "masses" (as Brendan White has found) but that does not work for serious drummers. That is a problem...!!! Brendon will not even accomodate a request for a drum with a higher set of finishing standards, even at an increased price. So, sadly, I have to say that he is to be avoided unless you can find one of his old drums that was made back in the days when I was still building up his reputation.
I have an O'Kane drum on order. I an anxious to see what kind of product Seaums is making these days. I know another maker in Scandanavia who specializes in extremely high quality drums but I don't know about the sound he gets... That's the one issue I have yet to resolve in my mind. What good is a beautiful drum that has a 2nd tier tone? It becomes a decoration and not an instrument.... Somebody out there is making perfect drums with the appropriate high level of finish and a fabulous sound. I just need to find them.
It's not a problem,.... I have the patience and actually,... I enjoy the "hunt" so to speak, as I learn of bodhran makers around the globe, and their products. It will turn out as I want it to in the end.
Here's a link to another drum maker called David Settles, here in Calgary Alberta (snowy AND drier than a fish fart rolled in sand, at the same time!).
Dave makes nice drums, from what I've seen, and he did a nice job of re-skinning my old Eamonn McGuire drum, including converting it to tuneable. He tells me that he's had good luck building drums for dry climates for people all over N. America. Plus he's a good guy.
Conan, I didn't say you said that. I said that, and then agreed with you. The website you reference is hardly indicative of Aidan's workmanship either. What terrible pictures! Just to get it out of the way. Rocky Mountain oysters are bull testicles. Plain and simple. Nothing to be shy or grossed out about. I hear they are very good and would have no qualms about trying one (or two).
Hi Aiki, just having a quiet laugh to myself - it's funny but these message board conversations always end up in some sort of crossed-wire situation. I know you didn't say that - I thought I'd posted a message about 5 minutes later to recognise the fact, and also to reply to Zina; it didn't manage to make it through cyberspace obviously. You're right about the pics - the ones on the link I posted are pretty dire. I like the idea of a T-bar on the back of the drum. It's a good compromise for people who generally don't need a crossbar but might need to do gigs standing up.
Zina, I honestly don't have a notion as to how thick skins behave in hot, dry conditions. I guess they would tighten up, just not as quickly as thin skinned drums. Glad you liked the wishing stick story!
Conan, the thick drum skins are not a problem in the dry climates... They don't work well in humid climates... the get soft. I have a Belgarth, it's actually the painted one on the home page of Eoin Leonards web site. It's an 18" and the heavy skin is killer! I tune it down and play it and it sounds like the war rumble theme on Braveheart... It sends shivers up my spine... I am worried about thin drum heads like Seamus' drum in dry weather... They do split. I have several vintage snare drums with the old velumn calf snare side heads.... (Hey Aj....... you want a gross-out...? Ask me what velum skins are sometime...). Anyway, they require super-human care in very dry climates....
I don't know if I'm real happy to hear that Seamus is not making the drums any more...!!! Is it like getting a Stratovarious (sp) made by his son, or nephew.
Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Hi, I was wondering if greenman, or any of the other drummers on the forum could explain something for me. I am confused by how certain tones, for example, the snare sound, are achieved on a bodhran? Is it electronic,... or with a brush-ended tipper, or something concocted in a studio, or sampled and triggered.
It seemed like such a simple instrument that I was reluctant to take it up, but the more I study it and develop my technique, the more complex it becomes. Then, when I listen to Kila for the first time as I did today, I stop and say - whoa, there are methods of playing this drum that I have no clue about. Zina mentioned the other day how Ringo McDonagh's playing in fact resembles an entire drumkit. Is this true?... And he does it all done with one acoustic drum, a mic, a tipper and a bare hand...
Charlie C.
# Posted on March 25th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
I've seen people using brushes to get this effect, and I think it was the guy from Easy Club that had the idea. Easy Club were a Scottish Band that did jazzy arrangements of Trad material here in the UK in the 80's.
http://www.jackevans.net/dadgad.html
All the best PP
# Posted on March 25th 2003 by Pied Piper
Oops try http://www.jackevans.net/dadgad.htm
pp
# Posted on March 25th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Hello Charlie and All! Johnny "Ringo" McDonagh's playing is indeed wonderful. I've heard him on Mary Bergin recordings (whistles) and I love the way he plays. Obviously he doesn't really sound like he's playing a full drumkit but I think I know what Zina might have meant. Have a listen and see what you think...
Snare sound? That might be got by using what's sometimes called a hot-rod tipper (probably a trade name). I made one myself cos I saw someone using it and I liked it. It's a bunch of thin rods (got mine from a model-makers shop) taped or lashed together in the middle (or to taste). Cut them to size, sand off the ends to make a smooth rounded surface. Then you'll find you get a snare-ish sound. I've not tried brushes but I've heard them and they can sound snarey, too.
I usually take three tippers out with me now - a straight thin heavy stick, the roddy stick, and a tipper with thick ends covered with chamois leather (U use to dry your car with). The latter has less of the stick sound, more of the drum.
I used to get carried away and take a bag of tippers out with me but it got a bit silly! Those three cover all the sounds I really might need in a session. The straight one's the one I use mostly, the others as the tune or combination of other instruments calls for.
Sounds like you're having fun! All the best...
# Posted on March 26th 2003 by greenman
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Thanks mates! I'm glad I asked, I learned something... there's no such thing as a dumb question, (only dumb questioners)..
Much better idea to carry those distinct tipper styles than three or four drums,... not that I do, I just hear of players doing this more and more, usually with a word of derisiveness by the more experienced drummers. Actually, I am in need of all three tipper styles you've described. And I especially like the concept of leather covers on the beater. Brilliant!
My thought on the different sounds, especially by the "best" players" is the EFFORT they put into precision. A novice such as myself is more apt to,... how can I say it, ... to "slide" as I changes tones, (I'm talking mostly about the left hand, flesh side hand, obviously) but also a laziness in moving the tipper to various strike points can result in muddled notes and a lack of good bodhran articulation. I'd think that to achieve the drumset effect, it might be a good idea to have 6 or more playing positions that you can hit perfectly, and rapidly.
What I'm comparing this to in my mind is a good "double-bass" fiddle player. There are times they slide on the strings, but mostly, they make great effort to be precise and accurate in their note formation.
What do you think about this as a bodhran technique to aspire to?
# Posted on March 26th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
I have used a similar tipper for a few years. I made it by getting a package of bamboo shish-kabab (sp?) sticks, glueing them together in the middle, leaving the ends loose. Then sanding the tips round. One package can make about 3 tippers for about $1. sell the other two and triple your investment.
# Posted on March 26th 2003 by lrheaume
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Mate of mine uses a bunch of barbecue sticks with the sharp end cut off [mores the pity hee hee] taped up with some plumbers tape. Also uses a jazz brush.
I must admit, though, that I don't like the sound. I much prefer the bodhr
# Posted on March 26th 2003 by breandan
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
I try and get the bodhran player to use snare brush for the slower waltzes just to fill in a bit more - you are limited in what you can do with really slow stuff.
For that reason I prefer snare drum to goat if there is any old-time to be played.
# Posted on March 26th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Our drummer has experimented with everything from pastry brushes to paint brushes. For the most part now, she either uses just her tipper or her hand.
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
I think I'll go to the "craft's" shop and look through their stock of dowl material for starters. I am interested in some longer tippers, the standard size seems to be about 8 3/4" but length's up to 10-12" work great. I've discovered this using cut off drumsticks. But if I care to upgrade, where can I obtain an ebony or rosewood rod?
I have heard about drummers using split-sticks and I wondered what they were? I am looking for a split design that is heaver than a bundle of rods, - more like a true split, such as the old fashioned clothes pins - except about 11" long.... I like the drum sound that matches a hard "click" super-imposed over the deep drum beat... I believe it is actually wood-on-wood that would be the result from a split tipper, and not the click of the tipper as it glances/strikes the skin, but I could be wrong....
Greenman, or anyone, do you know the sound I'm asking about?
(I will 2nd the previous remark about "just using a snare drum" instead of truing to make a bodhran impersonate a snare drum).... but still, there IS a way of striking the muted drum that really can produce a close approximation..... It's amazing!
Charles C.
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
The drummer in the Cork group North Cregg uses a snare drum. On the CD notes of their album mi.da:za (no typo -- that's the name of the CD), the drummer is listed as "Martin Leahy - snare drum, percussion". Not a bad album.
# Posted on March 27th 2003 by lukegarry
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Charlie:
There's an interesting tipper site at
http://fiddlers-grove.com
I'd like to know where to get a split tipper.
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by linda
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Thanks... I have tried a "goatwacker" before... (what a name!) The wood I have mine in is cocabola. Beautiful, and fairly heavy, but it's not exactly right for me...
That is actually one of the most complicated elements of drumming,... finding the right tipper. I have about a dozen and none are perfect - and some are terrible. The closest I have to perfect right now is Kirk Witmers "thumb thumper". I'm left handed and I do like the thumb groove, but the ends are way too large. I've talked to Kirk and asked him to try again on some refinements I have in mind. He also has a limited supply of a wood he calls "corian"... It's a white wood that looks like bone, very dense and hard. He can't make a thumb groove in this wood because he says he doesn't have the right tool, but I think a nice paddle design in corian might be worth trying, plus I just like the wood.
I have some power tools and may try making tippers myself. It's kind of like tying your own flys for flyfishing.... I plan to make them out of drumsticks which come in a huge array of thicknesses, wood types and densities.... If I come up with a functional split end design, and I think I will, I'll send you some.... Until then, I am going to try some oriental chop sticks (seriously) taped together and cut to size. Not the balsa-wood version you get with take-out, but some of the nicer ones that are sold in oriental markets.... Something to think about.... That click/thump sound of Ronan O'Snodaigh of Kila is very desireable!
# Posted on March 28th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Thanks. I'll look forward to trying out your woodwork .
You're a man with a mission, Charlie. I like that! Have a great time with your experimenting. Good to know another drummer, too.
Linda
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by linda
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
It's nice to have some people to discuss celtic drumming with. Before I found this site I was kind of an island. My interest has kind of taken me by surprise. I bought a Belgarth from Eoin Leonard about three or four years ago after I saw Kevin Connor play his drum with the Chieftans. Have you ever seen him live? Awesome! During a break, Kevin takes his drum out to the edge of the stage and solo's and sings in the spotlight - and it was something I had never seen before. I was shocked! I left thinking "what was that?" I found a drum on the internet but I did not know what to do with it for the first two years. I would mess around, and get discouraged and put it away. Ha, and I have been a drummer for 30 years but I could not get the hang of the bodhran. I don't know what "clicked" but something did, and I discovered how fascinating and complex a percussion instrument it was. Luckily!
So yes, I hope all the drummers out there find this site and care to participate in the discussion. I'm sure it will make us better session players.
# Posted on March 29th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Yeah, all the different sounds (not tones) from the bodhran are made by different tippers. Brush tippers sound very brushy to the extent of a jazz brush. Rake tippers are those which are basically a bunch of wooden skewers rounded off and bound together. They sound much like a pick hitting the strings of a guitar. Try using a rake tipper and just playing with a guitarist who's cranking out some chords. Of course, you also have the various designs of wooden tippers, which makes a difference in sound. Slimmer tippers have a more crisp, sharp sound. Fatter, if you will, tippers have a more blunt, resonant sound. Let's not forget the old felt mallet tippers. These have a great base sound to them. Sounds like Ruff could benefit from this website:
http://www.mance.com/acebodhrans/boacc.html
BTW, it's Kevin Conneff who plays with the Chieftains.
Also, listen to John Joe Kelly from Flook if you are looking for that drum kit sound.
http://www.flook.co.uk
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by Odin
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Okay, one more post, because an acquaintance has come up with a new kind of tipper. *grin* Go ahead, try using one and not smirking, or at the very least giving it back to the owner and surreptiously wiping your hand on your jeans. http://www.alltel.net/~bb24459/bp-tipper/
zls
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Zina..... ???????????? .......... LOL...!!!
I couldn't imagine what you were talking about, now I agree. BP tippers. My God. Who, where, what, when,..how,.......... They say that every part of a cow (or bull) except the moo is used for something. They must have seen that site too... Try the cow catapult however... it's a hoot. I got 380 pts on my 4th try.
Thank you Aj. I've seen Mance bodhrans before but not his tippers, beautiful, .. functional, but not for the faint of heart or light of wallet... $55 dollars...??? I suppose, if I knew exactly what I wanted.
BTW, on those Mance Grady drums, what do you think about his sliding sound bar?
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Zina, how bizarre! :^D I don't know which to do first, laugh or cringe.
Charles, I only got 200 pts on my 3rd try.
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by linda
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
It's a "timing shot" Linda, as a drummer, you ought to score at least a 300 cow points if you try this advice. ... Load up your cow with a double mouse click and count to five with the same slow tempo every time before you launch him.... Bullseye, (or CowsEye). Yes, I agree with you... the B.P. tippers are to be avoided..... that is insane, and I see that the drummer for Siucra uses one. They are going to be in town in a few weeks, I hope I don't see it on stage, or it will ruin the show for me, I won't be able to quit snickering about it,... he, he, he. Ask Zina about Rocky Mountain Oysters sometime.... equally as bizarre... and only in Colorado.
# Posted on March 30th 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
I had a chance to try out Mance's drums at NEFFA last year. I don't particularly care for his drums, but his innovations are notable. I did like this sweet 14" he had. But, I went for one of his wide rake tippers instead. The slide bar is something to behold. I do just fine without it, but can see where it could come in handy. It is just one of those things. You either like it or you don't. Certainly a creative idea.
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by Odin
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
That would be ideal, to try one out. I can think of many positives and negatives with the slide bar. In it's favor would be a precision in repetative sounds, (see, i did not use the incorrect word "tones"). It is similar to frets on a guitar, also, maybe, the ability to achieve increased pressure on the drum head. Against it would be the same problem as cross bars... THEY ARE ALWAYS IN THE WAY!!! What is the NEFFA?
and Which maker do you currently perfer.... O'Kane?
Thanks. CC.
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
We had a wee chat about S
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Thanks for the link Conan. I saw that thread when I did a search on this site for bodhran. I was wondering what Aj ki preferred because he seemed to arrive with so much background. I need to look up McNeela again. Is that the Irish Maker in the small coastal town... ?
I am familiar with all the makers you listed, and about that many more. I am continually told that the fundamental difference is in the skin. Each maker, - the best ones at least, have a propriatary technique for processing the skins. I like that! I am a little leery of the makers who just go out and purchase commercially processed skins even thought they may be buying the best quality.
I'll mention one maker who I'm interested in and that is Kevin O'Conner in southwestern England. Kevin has been at it a long time and his drums are the best selling brand carried by Custy's, a famous music shop in Central England, I believe. Kevin intrigued me enough with his history and craftsmanship that I have commissioned two drums from him. Unfortunately, it will be at least a two month wait, so i can't report and specifics just yet...
Okay, so, Al ki..... what drums do you like?
Ruff.
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
I don't know that Beth actually does use her BP tipper. I do have a new one for her, though -- Barb has now developed a *braided* tipper and gave me one to give to Beth...it even has her name engraved on it. I had to hide it from the dog that lived at the house I was staying at, as, let's face it, it's more or less a rawhide chew toy, c'mon. A braided one - must make the guys' eyes water just thinking about it, really.
zls
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Zina, I really like you.... I hope that doesn't make your husband jealous. On the B.P. tipper site, it was the guy, the guitar player part-time boudhranii-saurus for Suicra that conveyed a compliment for the BP tipper, not Beth... She probably thinks he is just being macho, just like my ex-wife said about me the time I tried a plate of Rocky Mountain Oysters at the Denver Buffalo Company... She was right!..Cheers!
Charlie.
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Matt? Really? I need to go look at that again, I didn't really read all the way through the site! Heh. Shannon (Matt's wife) is the one who played the BP tipper joke on me. I arrived late for their Lincoln concert, just in time for the last number and the encore. Afterwards, Shannon handed me the tipper and asked me to try it on Beth's bodhran to see what I thought of it. I don't actually play, so I was a little puzzled. I said, well, it's...interesting...and she said, yes, well, guess what it's made of? I said, rawhide? she says, close... and starts laughing. That's where I found out that after using one, you can't quite keep yourself from wiping your hand on your jeans...
I can hardly wait to give the new braided tipper to Beth. She had come up with a new motto for Barb -- something like "what *doesn't* sound better played with a bull penis?" but I think Barb has come up with a new one, something about, um, keeping a beat...*grin*
Charlie, my husband will just assume you have good taste. *snort*
zls
# Posted on March 31st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Laughing out loud... ! as always, when you post. Insight and humor. The perfect internet forum moderator.
What I have been wondering, drummers, is what you know of Gerhard Kress... he calls his percussion company, and bodhrans "Gurt Mint".... His claim to fame, and that a large claim, in that Stefan Hannigan plays Gurt Mint drums,... and Stefan is right up there with JoeJohn and the other few in the "elite" ranks.
I'm pushing on this topic because I have found there really are huge differences in handmade, professional instruments. All drums are not the same in quality or performance. I have a lot of information and opinions on this topic and I'm just trying to see if I can "spark" the discussion. Let me know if anybody wants to take up the ball and run with it for a while?
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
You might ask about Alphonse's drums -- Kevin, does he have a website? -- Beth was saying that a lot of people have really liked his drums, especially people who are in desert climes like ours here in Denver -- he's in Texas, I think, so I think people have said there's less humidity related problems..
Good god, I'm not the moderator at The Session -- we don't actually have a moderator here. It's Jeremy's session, though, and any actual leadership duties fall upon his unfortunate head, thank all the saints, not mine. I already run a session, keeping two going would probably kill me, especially one virtual. I can't even keep the SCTLS files up to date -- it's been ages since we've posted new mp3s to the playlist, and people are starting to hint around. No, I'm just mouthy. Ask anybody, they'll tell you.
zls
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Okay, Ruff. Actually, when speaking about the head of the drum you would use "tones". Referring, of course, to the highs and lows produced by the position of the hand on the skin. My drum has a single bar. I use it to suppport the drum on my leg when I am moving around on the back of the skin. Crossbars are more invading, definitely. I play an Aidan McRory tunable bodhran made in Dublin. It is the best and loudest drum I have ever played. The tones you get are clear and crisp. The skin is great. NEFFA is the New England Folk Festival.
http://www.neffa.org
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by Odin
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Hi Ruff
He's often to be seen selling his wares at festivals the length and breadth of the country. They take a good deal of breaking in but the skins are definitely worth it.
Padraig McNeela is from the small coastal town of Dublin
Aiki, you mentioned using the word "tones" when speaking of the different sounds of a bodhr
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
LOL -- Ah, Con
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Can't agree on getting just the same sound from a cheap drum as a high end one. But, I can agree that you can make a cheap drum sound good. My old Pakistani still does a good job if I ever play it.
Tone would refer to the 'notes' of the drum. Hence the diatonic scale - tonic, supertonic, mediant, etc. Just a little mucky-muck music theory here.
A tone has four characteristics: pitch, duration, dynamics, and timbre.
Pitch: The highness and lowness of a tone.
Duration: The length of a tone.
Dynamics: The force or power of a tone. (Loudness or softness).
Timbre: Quality of a tone.
A 'note' represents the Pitch and Duration of a tone.
In essence, a tone embodies a note.
I made a distinction between the 'sound' and the 'tone' of a drum.
A tipper can give the bodhran head a different 'sound' (ie, scratchy, brushy, dull, crisp, etc.). But, 'tones' of the skin are made my pressing or depressing the drum head. Thereby creating a higher or lower pitch. Then, achieving a note.
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by Odin
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Okay, what's a sliding sound bar? What difference does it make on a bodhran?
And, for those of us less worldly, what's a Rocky Mtn. oyster?
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by linda
I'd be interested in a comparison of Albert's, Kane's, White's, and other drums as regards to their sound (or other commentaries).
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by linda
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Rocky Mountain Oysters are a, er, delicacy roundabout these parts, Linda. They're, um, close, er, relatives of the bp tippers, but not usually served in the rather dessicated style that makes the bp tipper something to play with, har har. I've never actually eaten any of them. I don't even know how they cook them (sauted? poached? broiled?) or what they look like (in their cooked form, I mean). Charlie apparently has eaten them, so I'll let him describe the bits I don't know about...taste, consistency, etc.
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Aiki,about the tone/note thing sorry I misunderstood - I didn't read your previous posts thoroughly enough! Although, likewise, I didn't say you could get just the same sound from a cheap drum as a decent drum.
I must confess I'd never heard of Aidan McCrory but I came across this link:
http://www.perfectpitchmusic.ie/bodhran%20-%20%20main%20page.htm
It's got Paraic McNeela on there as well, although the pics of the bodhrans aren't representative of the quality instruments he makes.
A friend of mine from Belfast, Rohan Young, makes really beautiful drums - some in a dodecahedron shape! They really are works of art and sound terrific. If anyone wants his number drop me an email.
http://www.qub.ac.uk/sa/resources/Belfast_Project/G_Doyle/text/Rohan_Young.html
Con
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Hi.... on the Rocky Mountain Oysters thing, they are sliced and fried like a french fry or a fish stick, they are not very good, the mystique comes from the fact that everyone around the table giggles that you were drunk enough to order them... Kind of like escargot, but escargot tastes better.
Linda, I think the #1 bodhran maker in the world today is Brendan White in the Netherlands (Holland). And he is going solely off of reputation... Past reputation. His name is "out there" in the musician circles and he has a snazzy web site. I have a double headed 42cm drum of his. In a brief statement, the quality of manufacture is sorely lacking. It has a good sound but the wood is rough and unfinished, the sanding is uneven, the skins have cosmetic defects. This is not really a "slam" on Brendan, it happens in the real world when you become as busy as he is. When I placed my order, he was in the middle of completing a batch of 32 drums and I bought the last double headed drum available. He completes a batch like this every three weeks. He would not accept any special or custom requests... It's a one man assembly line. I cannot recommend him because of this fact. Craftsmanship is very important to me. And I an willing to pay extra for it. Why should a guitar player, or a bouzouki, or a fiddle or a flute be gorgeous, and finished to perfection and be visually and aestetically perfect and a drum be slammed out on a belt sander and have rough saw marks and numerous cosmetic defects. That works for the "masses" (as Brendan White has found) but that does not work for serious drummers. That is a problem...!!! Brendon will not even accomodate a request for a drum with a higher set of finishing standards, even at an increased price. So, sadly, I have to say that he is to be avoided unless you can find one of his old drums that was made back in the days when I was still building up his reputation.
I have an O'Kane drum on order. I an anxious to see what kind of product Seaums is making these days. I know another maker in Scandanavia who specializes in extremely high quality drums but I don't know about the sound he gets... That's the one issue I have yet to resolve in my mind. What good is a beautiful drum that has a 2nd tier tone? It becomes a decoration and not an instrument.... Somebody out there is making perfect drums with the appropriate high level of finish and a fabulous sound. I just need to find them.
It's not a problem,.... I have the patience and actually,... I enjoy the "hunt" so to speak, as I learn of bodhran makers around the globe, and their products. It will turn out as I want it to in the end.
Charlie.
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Charlie
Just a further note about O'Kane. I was talking to his son Ruairidh a while ago and he was telling me that S
# Posted on April 1st 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Just curious: Con
# Posted on April 2nd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Here's a link to another drum maker called David Settles, here in Calgary Alberta (snowy AND drier than a fish fart rolled in sand, at the same time!).
http://members.shaw.ca/dsettles/drums/
Dave makes nice drums, from what I've seen, and he did a nice job of re-skinning my old Eamonn McGuire drum, including converting it to tuneable. He tells me that he's had good luck building drums for dry climates for people all over N. America. Plus he's a good guy.
# Posted on April 2nd 2003 by Gzeg
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Conan, I didn't say you said that. I said that, and then agreed with you. The website you reference is hardly indicative of Aidan's workmanship either. What terrible pictures! Just to get it out of the way. Rocky Mountain oysters are bull testicles. Plain and simple. Nothing to be shy or grossed out about. I hear they are very good and would have no qualms about trying one (or two).
# Posted on April 2nd 2003 by Odin
Some pictures of Aidan's drums.
http://www.celticfire.com/Instruments/Percussion/percussion.html
# Posted on April 2nd 2003 by Odin
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Hi Aiki, just having a quiet laugh to myself - it's funny but these message board conversations always end up in some sort of crossed-wire situation. I know you didn't say that - I thought I'd posted a message about 5 minutes later to recognise the fact, and also to reply to Zina; it didn't manage to make it through cyberspace obviously. You're right about the pics - the ones on the link I posted are pretty dire. I like the idea of a T-bar on the back of the drum. It's a good compromise for people who generally don't need a crossbar but might need to do gigs standing up.
Zina, I honestly don't have a notion as to how thick skins behave in hot, dry conditions. I guess they would tighten up, just not as quickly as thin skinned drums. Glad you liked the wishing stick story!
C
# Posted on April 2nd 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Conan, the thick drum skins are not a problem in the dry climates... They don't work well in humid climates... the get soft. I have a Belgarth, it's actually the painted one on the home page of Eoin Leonards web site. It's an 18" and the heavy skin is killer! I tune it down and play it and it sounds like the war rumble theme on Braveheart... It sends shivers up my spine... I am worried about thin drum heads like Seamus' drum in dry weather... They do split. I have several vintage snare drums with the old velumn calf snare side heads.... (Hey Aj....... you want a gross-out...? Ask me what velum skins are sometime...). Anyway, they require super-human care in very dry climates....
I don't know if I'm real happy to hear that Seamus is not making the drums any more...!!! Is it like getting a Stratovarious (sp) made by his son, or nephew.
# Posted on April 3rd 2003 by irish ruff
Re: Snare, and other sounds on bodhran
Charlie, I wouldn't worry too much about the O'Kane drum; his son can put together just as good a frame, from what I've seen. S
# Posted on April 3rd 2003 by Conán McDonnell