In my view,basically whistle/flute tequnique is built with
the irea of Piping technique.
We do cuts/taps rolls,so why not the Circular Breathing?
I tried it,and knew I could do any whistle/flute technique
'with' the Circular Breathing.like tounging,throating,of cource
piping ornamentations.
I also tried Circular Breathing on the flute ,but it requires
so much air to produce a powerful Irish tone,so I can only play
the long note on the high register.But in few years I will...
I am also trying playing 2,3 whistles with the Circular Breathing big grin
Please let me hear your opinion about using curcluar breating in
Irish traditional music.
_________________
Japanese Wooden Flute & Whistle player.
As a former trumpet player from many many years ago, I can tell you that I'm definitely impressed.
However, taking breaths in Irish music is something that adds some "space" in the tune. Good players use it to achieve lift and add interest to the tunes. I miss that when I listen to your recordings a bit...
It's slightly unnerving, IMHO! I'd agree with reverend about the use of breaths in tunes. With your technique there's no phrasing, it seems to me, which I always enjoy and try to pay attention to. It's one of the first things I listen out for in someone's playing, actually.
Anyway well done but don't hyperventilate!
I have a question for pipers. How does it compare?
You are trying to reproduce some piping technique on pennywhistle & flute. The rub is that an essential element of Irish flute is phrasing (taking a breath. . . ) Having said that ~ flute players are always listening to pipers to develop their technique.
I must be naturally cynical!! but how do we know this isn't a recording trick!! Record the tune a few times, breath in diiferent spots and splice it all together. I maybe even be able to detect the odd jump/ glitch in the tracks which could be natural and then again might not ... anyone else?
Some time back on the C&F flute forum, someone did just this to a tune only using 4 or 5 different flutes .. the point being in that case to see if the different flutes were detectable.
I think everyone's being way too nice. The thing is, they can't put their finger on why it sounds so odd/nasty so they're saying things like " there's no phrasing" or "it's a bit unnerving".
Come out with it, chaps, it just sound horrible. Don't ask me why, 'cos I don't know, but it does.
It's not the circular breathing itself that's the problem, but the hurring on to the next phrase or note. Circular breathing shouldn't dictate the timing between notes or phrases, as it seems to in hatao's samples here. I for one want to hear a longer pause in those transitions from one phrase to the next.
Most trad whistle players and fluters learn to breathe much as a singer might, so it sounds natural and enhances the phrasing. And it's easier to do than circular breathing....
I'm really surprised and rather dismayed at the sour grapes expressed here by our members. Hatao has obviously spent a long time mastering not only circular breathing but also very good technique of rolls and cuts. He/she does manage to phrase by tonguing, and does so effectively, and without the pause for breath , so the preceding note is taken right up to the tonguing punctuation, yet still producing a continuous flow. I for one am very very impressed by the playing (knowing of course I'll never become that good!) and would go as far as to say this could even be regarded as a rare step forward in technique. Well done Hatao, and thank you for sharing your music with us. Have you made any commercial recordings (yet)?
I'm still not convinced it's real. My brother does circular breathing on his alto sax and his siver flute. And I've heard it done very well on the oboe. On the oboe, the pressure is such that a reasonable amount of time can be taken to inhale through the nose. On the sax though, the inhalation has to be snatched. And when my brother does it on the flute, because of the relative volume of tghe flute, the snatch of air is really quite audible. I just can't hear this snatch on the recordings above which makes me suspicious.
(As an aside though, even if someone did manage to get do this, the same rule applies to any of our clever little tricks that we learn. And that is ... don't do it all the time. By all means, play a long phrase, including a few circular breaths. Then play some phrases with breathing. Mix it up.)
BTW I just checked out Hatao's thread at Chiff and Fipple and they were much less hostile to Hatao over there...in fact, there was mostly friendly interest.
(OK, maybe hostile is not the right word. I'm just surprised at the negativity here.)
I can see no earthly reason why anyone would want to post fake recordings. But I guess it takes all sorts.
For that reason, I'm going to take it at face value.
May I suggest Mr. Gill perhaps you cannot take your brothers' circular breathing at face value either? There may well be techniques different from his own.
Definitely sounds real to me. I tried to do circular breathing simply because I was interested in the idea. I tried to keep a constant stream of bubbles using a straw and a glass of water. I found that it was very hard to release the air at a constant rate once you'd replenished the "bellows" (your cheek pouches) and for a split second it escapes at a higher pressure. You can clearly hear that Hatao just about manages not to overblow the whistle at regular intervals; this is the phenomenon I'm talking about.
I think he has done very well; with practise it will sound much better, once he has gained more control. However I still believe, as others have said, that tunes sound much better with stops. Fiddlers don't have to worry about breathing; they can play a constant stream of notes, uninterrupted, but very few do. At the very least, long notes at the end of a phrase should not be rushed.
Conan gets at what I was trying to say--don't rush the ends of one phrase to get to the next.
I think this is more a matter of timing than whether the player is circular breathing or not--given that most trad wind players usually avoid breathing between phrases.
I think it sounds pretty good, and I hope Hatao has some thick skin. Putting your music out for people to critique is courageous, and I wouldn't think to try it myself. It is unusual to listen to a whistle tune and not hear pauses for breath, but in a live performance, I bet you could really get a crowd going.
I'm sure this is something that wouldn't be used all the time, but the idea that it CAN be done is pretty interesting. I do think there is some validity to playing like other instruments. (Like Hatao's playing whistle in the style of a piper.)
In my last fiddle lesson, my teacher gave me an exercise that did something similar. I was to hold my bow with my thumb and forefinger and use the entire bow, slur all notes, and not reverse directions until I reached the tip or the frog. It kinda reminded me of a piper-like sound, as there was always going to be a note being played. It also made my left hand do some different things to make the tunes sound decent. Wasn't a bad exercise for the right hand either, as you learn what the bow is capable of doing all by itself. He said he learned this from Martin Hayes this summer in the Catskills.
Bottomline, it's OK to experiment, and it's OK be supportive of others.
That's cool nofrets, I do that too. In fact, playing an absurd amount of notes with one bowstroke is how I usually keep up to speed when things get real zippy at sessions.
Impressive indeed. Having acquired this technique, the only question is I now see is how will you choose apply it, especially when expressing your own personal taste in music.
I have no comment, positive or negative, on the "authentic ITM musicality" of your recordings, hatao, myself being a lesser student of ITM than many here. I will venture that you have, IMHO, a very interesting tool at your disposal which many wind musicians do not, and it should be interesting to see how it can be applied to the music. Introduced gradually and used conservatively, you may find some less-explored areas of interpretation, which should offend noone so long as you keep close to the values of the "style".
BTW, all of it is much better technically than I could offer on a flute or whistle. Well done.
OK, maybe I should be less rebuking of the detractors, but what I mean is don't knock this technique, especially since Hatao has gone to such great lengths to get it up and running as a viable technique. In my opinion this should be regarded as yet another useful tool in the box of techniques, to be used or not as the player requires. There have been many times when I could have done with a bit more breath at the end of a phrase.
Danny, I listened to it again. He plays really well, I agree, but it just seemed a bit odd to me. I guess I must be one of the most reactionary people on this site, what with my dislike of backers and all, and now this. I suppose if you were introduced to the music through this sort of playing it would sound "natural", even though it is clearly a difficult technique to master, and you wouldn't think about it.
Hatao, yes I stand by my remarks about phrasing - I just cant hear any in your playing (except for the obvious invisible bars in the tunes which are there anyway).
I agree with key maniac lad,it is good.
to have no breaths is better than to be breathing in the middle of a phrase.,a common failing of many whistle players.
however I believe that use of pauses [breaths] in the correct place actually enhances slow airs.
so now you ,have mastered circular breathing,put a few breaths back in[think of them like grace notes]
I believe pipers call them pats.
anyway well done hatao,you make good music.,I find it enjoyable to listen to.Dick Miles
last week on television on tg4, JuliaClifford was featured[a repeat]the presenter Nicolas Carolan made the comment she appears to be putting nothing into her bowing,compared to the sound coming out.[left hand important here]
Hatao is doing something like this ,with his left hand[cuts etc],and with tongueing,.I can hear musical phrasing.
Hi Hatao,
I'm happy to take you at your word - I was merely pointing out that it could easily be 'faked' by recording tricks. Congrats - must have required a lot of effort to get it going.
I agree the phrasing could be stronger, but still, that's an amazing technique. I favor a few tunes where the best end for the phrase is just a bit too far for me(on flute). It would be nice to squeeze out a couple more notes before taking a real breath. Nice work Hateo.
Circular breathing is quite an accomplishment in itself. You are obviously devoted to improving your technique. The few doubters praise your accomplishment when they say what you have recorded is not possible. I will look forward to hearing the progress.
Yep, you're right, Tonya. I should have paid more attention. So. What that means to me is that here we have someone who sounded brilliant on whistle, who then went on to develop a new circular breathing technique and now sounds (just my opinion, I realise) awful. I wonder if there's a lesson in there ...
Thanks for all of comments.
I can't answer all of you but let me point out something.
1.Why do I CB all the time?
I think I shouldn't do it all the time too,but this technique is
quite hard to find for listeners.To show what CB is this time,
I did it all the time and end of the tunes on purpose.
If I apply it on the stage or session,of cource I will do for
the sake of better phrasing.
2.Why these clips sound worse than past my recordings?
CB is very new technique to me,I need immence concentration to do it.
As a flute and whistle player,I believe breath can enhance
ryhtms and phrasing,and I feel they ( breath )are built in tunes
by nature.I need to separate them cousiously,and it's not easy as it says.
So I reluctantly omit the posibility of variations,good timing
and things.
3.How can I be good?
With CB,one can breath anywhere he / she wants without
stopping the series of notes.So I can employ it for the
better phrasing if I use carefully.
I think I'd better to see how fiddlers and pipers playing tunes
with and without stop because they are non-stop instrument
naturally, but good players surely have phrases by using
silence effevtively.
4.Why I think CB is useful?
It's not a authentic way of playing I agree though,one
can be free from breaking a long phrase with CB.
And any finger / tongue technique is limited when you
employ CB.
For the poeple who don't believe these clips are real ;
I will post a video to you tube soon,I will announce on
this thread if done.
I think it's really impressive that you've pushed yourself to try out something new. You've obviously put a lot of hours of practice in to get it that good.
There is something to be said for phrasing using breaths, though. I enjoyed your flute playing in that set where you play Sean Reid's on bamboo nose flute - that was funny! And also the one where you're playing London Lasses using standard breathing technique. The phrasing you do gives the music a lot more excitement and lift. Bear in mind that on the pipes, too, you can create similar effects by doing staccato stops on the knee, or whatever they do in that closed style. I think you should keep CB as a trick to be used sparingly.
I think Ben's being really harsh when he says you sound "awful". There's no way you sound "awful" in any of your clips. Keep doing what you're doing.
PS do you play in sessions in Kansai? I wouldn't mind checking out the trad scene there next time I'm in Japan. I've played in Tokyo a couple of times, and they mentioned there was stuff going on in Kansai too.
Not all the time I am practicing these kind of funny stuffs,
but I practice tone,scales,ornamentations more ..seriously !
That is not a "nose flute" Dow, that is a Patrick Olwell
bamboo G flute.^^
PS.
Yes,theare are sessions in Kansai - Kyoto,Osaka.
And loads of players we have at the sessions ,most are
beginners,but some are really good.
You can contact me when you come to Japan next time
and I will take you to any good one.
Cool. I have a friend who works at a university in Kyoto who I haven't seen for years. He's Japanese and into trad, altho he doesn't play an instrument. He introduced me to Dervish CDs back in the 90s. And I wouldn't mind going back to Osaka again. It'd be good to get to know the places a bit more instead of just doing the touristy stuff like going round all the Kyoto temples and shrines. I've done all that and am all templed out. I don't wanna see another damn temple in my whole life!
Sorry to have been harsh, folks, and I do find hatao's explanation above interesting.
However, he's clearly a really good player when *not* using CB, and, to me, I don't see the point - despite hatao's explanation - of using it unless it *improves* the music, which it doesn't seem to do.
Hi Hatao,
just checked back here and that's far out but kinda weird too. Looked at on the funny side, it's a bit like seeing a fish play the whistle!!!
Fair dues to you and either way your music sounds great.
You should post this video clip as a new topic though because people rarely look back and it is kinda remarkable to see.
You could make a small fortune going around festivals as a whistle stuntman!!!
Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Saorry for posting same topic as Chiff and fipple.
But I would like you to announce that I have finally
masterd circular breathing on Tin(and low ) whistles.
I had been working on leaning the circular breathing for few years,
and finally mastered on Tin Whislte(also low whistles).
Here are some tracks I recorded recently.
1. Eleanor Plunkett
http://www.irishflute.info/mp3/01.mp3
2. Reels (Dunmore Lasses - Green Mountain)
http://www.irishflute.info/mp3/02.mp3
3. Jigs
http://www.irishflute.info/mp3/03.mp3
4.Air"Mna Eireann" to Reels (same tune as no.2)
http://www.irishflute.info/mp3/04.mp3
In my view,basically whistle/flute tequnique is built with
the irea of Piping technique.
We do cuts/taps rolls,so why not the Circular Breathing?
I tried it,and knew I could do any whistle/flute technique
'with' the Circular Breathing.like tounging,throating,of cource
piping ornamentations.
I also tried Circular Breathing on the flute ,but it requires
so much air to produce a powerful Irish tone,so I can only play
the long note on the high register.But in few years I will...
I am also trying playing 2,3 whistles with the Circular Breathing big grin
Please let me hear your opinion about using curcluar breating in
Irish traditional music.
_________________
Japanese Wooden Flute & Whistle player.
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by hatao
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
As a former trumpet player from many many years ago, I can tell you that I'm definitely impressed.
However, taking breaths in Irish music is something that adds some "space" in the tune. Good players use it to achieve lift and add interest to the tunes. I miss that when I listen to your recordings a bit...
Pete
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
It's slightly unnerving, IMHO! I'd agree with reverend about the use of breaths in tunes. With your technique there's no phrasing, it seems to me, which I always enjoy and try to pay attention to. It's one of the first things I listen out for in someone's playing, actually.
Anyway well done but don't hyperventilate!
Max
Max
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by maxF
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
thanks ,Reverend,max F.
Sorry I mad many mistakes on my English spelling.
I am a bit drunk...
> Reverend
I usually thinking about phrasing as you mention,but
speaking about curcular whistling,I refer to uileann piping
phrasing much.
how can I be good like a uileann pipers on circular whistle?
>Max F
Really no phrase?
Some very long breath players (like Matt Molloy) play
like circular breathing.But they definitely has a phrase...
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by hatao
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I have a question for pipers. How does it compare?
You are trying to reproduce some piping technique on pennywhistle & flute. The rub is that an essential element of Irish flute is phrasing (taking a breath. . . ) Having said that ~ flute players are always listening to pipers to develop their technique.
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I got a little dizzy listening to you. I had to go out for some air. Whew. That's amazing. As a smoker and a fiddler I'm really amazed. That's wild.
What's even wilder is how much the Japanese like Irish music.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11850
I've often wondered, is this similiar to the Germans love David Hasselhoff thing?
http://dartreview.com/issues/2.7.00/hasselhoff.html
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I must be naturally cynical!! but how do we know this isn't a recording trick!! Record the tune a few times, breath in diiferent spots and splice it all together. I maybe even be able to detect the odd jump/ glitch in the tracks which could be natural and then again might not ... anyone else?
Some time back on the C&F flute forum, someone did just this to a tune only using 4 or 5 different flutes .. the point being in that case to see if the different flutes were detectable.
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
> the wounded hussar
I will promise this is not a recording trick!
Please listen to this track.
http://www.irishflute.info/mp3/04.mp3
Accordion and harp players are accompaning me,and
this was taken just in last night's gig !!
Can you hear my breath noise on track while playing 01-03 ?
I should post a video to youtube soon...
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by hatao
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I think everyone's being way too nice. The thing is, they can't put their finger on why it sounds so odd/nasty so they're saying things like " there's no phrasing" or "it's a bit unnerving".
Come out with it, chaps, it just sound horrible. Don't ask me why, 'cos I don't know, but it does.
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
It's not the circular breathing itself that's the problem, but the hurring on to the next phrase or note. Circular breathing shouldn't dictate the timing between notes or phrases, as it seems to in hatao's samples here. I for one want to hear a longer pause in those transitions from one phrase to the next.
Most trad whistle players and fluters learn to breathe much as a singer might, so it sounds natural and enhances the phrasing. And it's easier to do than circular breathing....
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
er....that should be "hurrying." See what happens when you get in a rush?
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I'm really surprised and rather dismayed at the sour grapes expressed here by our members. Hatao has obviously spent a long time mastering not only circular breathing but also very good technique of rolls and cuts. He/she does manage to phrase by tonguing, and does so effectively, and without the pause for breath , so the preceding note is taken right up to the tonguing punctuation, yet still producing a continuous flow. I for one am very very impressed by the playing (knowing of course I'll never become that good!) and would go as far as to say this could even be regarded as a rare step forward in technique. Well done Hatao, and thank you for sharing your music with us. Have you made any commercial recordings (yet)?
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I'm still not convinced it's real. My brother does circular breathing on his alto sax and his siver flute. And I've heard it done very well on the oboe. On the oboe, the pressure is such that a reasonable amount of time can be taken to inhale through the nose. On the sax though, the inhalation has to be snatched. And when my brother does it on the flute, because of the relative volume of tghe flute, the snatch of air is really quite audible. I just can't hear this snatch on the recordings above which makes me suspicious.
(As an aside though, even if someone did manage to get do this, the same rule applies to any of our clever little tricks that we learn. And that is ... don't do it all the time. By all means, play a long phrase, including a few circular breaths. Then play some phrases with breathing. Mix it up.)
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
BTW I just checked out Hatao's thread at Chiff and Fipple and they were much less hostile to Hatao over there...in fact, there was mostly friendly interest.
(OK, maybe hostile is not the right word. I'm just surprised at the negativity here.)
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
>I'm still not convinced it's real
I can see no earthly reason why anyone would want to post fake recordings. But I guess it takes all sorts.
For that reason, I'm going to take it at face value.
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I never take anything at face value
# Posted on September 28th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
May I suggest Mr. Gill perhaps you cannot take your brothers' circular breathing at face value either? There may well be techniques different from his own.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Definitely sounds real to me. I tried to do circular breathing simply because I was interested in the idea. I tried to keep a constant stream of bubbles using a straw and a glass of water. I found that it was very hard to release the air at a constant rate once you'd replenished the "bellows" (your cheek pouches) and for a split second it escapes at a higher pressure. You can clearly hear that Hatao just about manages not to overblow the whistle at regular intervals; this is the phenomenon I'm talking about.
I think he has done very well; with practise it will sound much better, once he has gained more control. However I still believe, as others have said, that tunes sound much better with stops. Fiddlers don't have to worry about breathing; they can play a constant stream of notes, uninterrupted, but very few do. At the very least, long notes at the end of a phrase should not be rushed.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
If you blow through your mouth, you breath through your nose. What other technique can there be? Maybe the man has had a tracheotomy?
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Conan gets at what I was trying to say--don't rush the ends of one phrase to get to the next.
I think this is more a matter of timing than whether the player is circular breathing or not--given that most trad wind players usually avoid breathing between phrases.
Otherwise, it's lovely playing indeed.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I think it sounds pretty good, and I hope Hatao has some thick skin. Putting your music out for people to critique is courageous, and I wouldn't think to try it myself. It is unusual to listen to a whistle tune and not hear pauses for breath, but in a live performance, I bet you could really get a crowd going.
I'm sure this is something that wouldn't be used all the time, but the idea that it CAN be done is pretty interesting. I do think there is some validity to playing like other instruments. (Like Hatao's playing whistle in the style of a piper.)
In my last fiddle lesson, my teacher gave me an exercise that did something similar. I was to hold my bow with my thumb and forefinger and use the entire bow, slur all notes, and not reverse directions until I reached the tip or the frog. It kinda reminded me of a piper-like sound, as there was always going to be a note being played. It also made my left hand do some different things to make the tunes sound decent. Wasn't a bad exercise for the right hand either, as you learn what the bow is capable of doing all by itself. He said he learned this from Martin Hayes this summer in the Catskills.
Bottomline, it's OK to experiment, and it's OK be supportive of others.
Have a great weekend!
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by nofrets
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
That's cool nofrets, I do that too. In fact, playing an absurd amount of notes with one bowstroke is how I usually keep up to speed when things get real zippy at sessions.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Impressive indeed. Having acquired this technique, the only question is I now see is how will you choose apply it, especially when expressing your own personal taste in music.
I have no comment, positive or negative, on the "authentic ITM musicality" of your recordings, hatao, myself being a lesser student of ITM than many here. I will venture that you have, IMHO, a very interesting tool at your disposal which many wind musicians do not, and it should be interesting to see how it can be applied to the music. Introduced gradually and used conservatively, you may find some less-explored areas of interpretation, which should offend noone so long as you keep close to the values of the "style".
BTW, all of it is much better technically than I could offer on a flute or whistle. Well done.
Good luck.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Rook
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Don't take criticism harshly. Most here are too wussy to even upload a clip of their playing. They claim not to know how to operate a PC microphone.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by silver bow
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Hey, who are you calling wussy?!
Meow.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Whoops, not meant to be directed at you in particular cheshire, but the overall ambience here.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by silver bow
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
LOL, fact is, I don't even own a PC mic.
But silver bow already knows what I sound like....
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
OK, maybe I should be less rebuking of the detractors, but what I mean is don't knock this technique, especially since Hatao has gone to such great lengths to get it up and running as a viable technique. In my opinion this should be regarded as yet another useful tool in the box of techniques, to be used or not as the player requires. There have been many times when I could have done with a bit more breath at the end of a phrase.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I thoroughly enjoyed listening to those MP3's thanks Hatao. Very nice.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Danny, I listened to it again. He plays really well, I agree, but it just seemed a bit odd to me. I guess I must be one of the most reactionary people on this site, what with my dislike of backers and all, and now this. I suppose if you were introduced to the music through this sort of playing it would sound "natural", even though it is clearly a difficult technique to master, and you wouldn't think about it.
Hatao, yes I stand by my remarks about phrasing - I just cant hear any in your playing (except for the obvious invisible bars in the tunes which are there anyway).
Max
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by maxF
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I agree with key maniac lad,it is good.
to have no breaths is better than to be breathing in the middle of a phrase.,a common failing of many whistle players.
however I believe that use of pauses [breaths] in the correct place actually enhances slow airs.
so now you ,have mastered circular breathing,put a few breaths back in[think of them like grace notes]
I believe pipers call them pats.
anyway well done hatao,you make good music.,I find it enjoyable to listen to.Dick Miles
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
last week on television on tg4, JuliaClifford was featured[a repeat]the presenter Nicolas Carolan made the comment she appears to be putting nothing into her bowing,compared to the sound coming out.[left hand important here]
Hatao is doing something like this ,with his left hand[cuts etc],and with tongueing,.I can hear musical phrasing.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Hi Hatao,
I'm happy to take you at your word - I was merely pointing out that it could easily be 'faked' by recording tricks. Congrats - must have required a lot of effort to get it going.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I agree the phrasing could be stronger, but still, that's an amazing technique. I favor a few tunes where the best end for the phrase is just a bit too far for me(on flute). It would be nice to squeeze out a couple more notes before taking a real breath. Nice work Hateo.
Jay
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by J
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Circular breathing is quite an accomplishment in itself. You are obviously devoted to improving your technique. The few doubters praise your accomplishment when they say what you have recorded is not possible. I will look forward to hearing the progress.
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=OvgB4TqDZn4
# Posted on September 30th 2007 by joesmith
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
CB is used in didge playing. (Runs for cover up the nearest gum tree)
# Posted on September 30th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
超かっこういい！
# Posted on September 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Dow, that's a very old-fashioned expression.
# Posted on September 30th 2007 by slainte
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Thanks for that YouTube clip, Laitch. It immediately made me ask 2 questions:
1 Why wasn't Hatao using circular breathing?
2 Why did it sound so much better than the other clips?
# Posted on September 30th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I'm a very old-fashioned person, slainte.
# Posted on September 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Benhall1;
Take your time. Check out the date when hatao submitted the video & read the comments.
Cheers!
# Posted on September 30th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Yep, you're right, Tonya. I should have paid more attention. So. What that means to me is that here we have someone who sounded brilliant on whistle, who then went on to develop a new circular breathing technique and now sounds (just my opinion, I realise) awful. I wonder if there's a lesson in there ...
# Posted on September 30th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Thanks for all of comments.
I can't answer all of you but let me point out something.
1.Why do I CB all the time?
I think I shouldn't do it all the time too,but this technique is
quite hard to find for listeners.To show what CB is this time,
I did it all the time and end of the tunes on purpose.
If I apply it on the stage or session,of cource I will do for
the sake of better phrasing.
2.Why these clips sound worse than past my recordings?
CB is very new technique to me,I need immence concentration to do it.
As a flute and whistle player,I believe breath can enhance
ryhtms and phrasing,and I feel they ( breath )are built in tunes
by nature.I need to separate them cousiously,and it's not easy as it says.
So I reluctantly omit the posibility of variations,good timing
and things.
3.How can I be good?
With CB,one can breath anywhere he / she wants without
stopping the series of notes.So I can employ it for the
better phrasing if I use carefully.
I think I'd better to see how fiddlers and pipers playing tunes
with and without stop because they are non-stop instrument
naturally, but good players surely have phrases by using
silence effevtively.
4.Why I think CB is useful?
It's not a authentic way of playing I agree though,one
can be free from breaking a long phrase with CB.
And any finger / tongue technique is limited when you
employ CB.
For the poeple who don't believe these clips are real ;
I will post a video to you tube soon,I will announce on
this thread if done.
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by hatao
Video
Hi,I poseted a video on youtube.
I am still not as good as non-CB style...
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=SWpv7w5kNk4
And this is a funny video,me playing flute with nose!
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=D8MsSFCxpYU
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by hatao
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
I think it's really impressive that you've pushed yourself to try out something new. You've obviously put a lot of hours of practice in to get it that good.
There is something to be said for phrasing using breaths, though. I enjoyed your flute playing in that set where you play Sean Reid's on bamboo nose flute - that was funny! And also the one where you're playing London Lasses using standard breathing technique. The phrasing you do gives the music a lot more excitement and lift. Bear in mind that on the pipes, too, you can create similar effects by doing staccato stops on the knee, or whatever they do in that closed style. I think you should keep CB as a trick to be used sparingly.
I think Ben's being really harsh when he says you sound "awful". There's no way you sound "awful" in any of your clips. Keep doing what you're doing.
PS do you play in sessions in Kansai? I wouldn't mind checking out the trad scene there next time I'm in Japan. I've played in Tokyo a couple of times, and they mentioned there was stuff going on in Kansai too.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Dow
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Thanks Dow !
Not all the time I am practicing these kind of funny stuffs,
but I practice tone,scales,ornamentations more ..seriously !
That is not a "nose flute" Dow, that is a Patrick Olwell
bamboo G flute.^^
PS.
Yes,theare are sessions in Kansai - Kyoto,Osaka.
And loads of players we have at the sessions ,most are
beginners,but some are really good.
You can contact me when you come to Japan next time
and I will take you to any good one.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by hatao
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
There's no denying that you played it like a nose flute though, no?
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Dow
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Cool. I have a friend who works at a university in Kyoto who I haven't seen for years. He's Japanese and into trad, altho he doesn't play an instrument. He introduced me to Dervish CDs back in the 90s. And I wouldn't mind going back to Osaka again. It'd be good to get to know the places a bit more instead of just doing the touristy stuff like going round all the Kyoto temples and shrines. I've done all that and am all templed out. I don't wanna see another damn temple in my whole life!
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by Dow
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Sorry to have been harsh, folks, and I do find hatao's explanation above interesting.
However, he's clearly a really good player when *not* using CB, and, to me, I don't see the point - despite hatao's explanation - of using it unless it *improves* the music, which it doesn't seem to do.
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Hi Hatao,
just checked back here and that's far out but kinda weird too. Looked at on the funny side, it's a bit like seeing a fish play the whistle!!!
Fair dues to you and either way your music sounds great.
You should post this video clip as a new topic though because people rarely look back and it is kinda remarkable to see.
You could make a small fortune going around festivals as a whistle stuntman!!!
# Posted on October 5th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Circular breathing on Tin whistle/flute
Thanks for comments everybody.
I don't feel I was offenced, and I am very happy to find this is a really good discussion going on about using CB in traditional music.
Here is a follower !!
Mr.James Conway in Chicago posted a cirular tin whistle
video on youtube.
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=WCeoYTliV5s
I am very sure this technique will be a standard
in 21st century traditional tin whistle players !!!
# Posted on October 8th 2007 by hatao