Tommy Potts (for those of you who don't know) was a fiddle player from Dublin who died in 1988. He approached ITM in a completely unique way, he played around with rhythm and phrasing and his variations were far more elaborate than most players before and afterwards. He was almost completely shunned by the establishment in his lifetime.
As far as I can tell he is still not exactly well known, many people have heard his name but how many of you have heard recordings of him, particularly his only album 'The Liffey Banks'?
If you haven't heard him perhaps you could go find his music listen to it and let us know what you think. Many of today's top fiddle players including players as diverse as Frankie Gavin, Paddy Glackin and Martin Hayes are huge admirers of Potts and Michael O'Suilleabhain admired him so much he did a thesis about him.
Yet despite the obvious respect he has I rarely ever hear anyone trying anything even close to what Potts did with ITM,
Do people think he was a once off and no one else should attempt to break away from the conventions of ITM like he did?
But of course in the end who cares......really, does anybody care?!!
I recorded The Butterfly on my CD and, through my lack of scholarship, failed to attribute the tune to him. I know we all play it too much but, for goodness sake, that's because it's a great tune, eh!
It is traditional, but it was composed by Tommy Potts! Any tune that gets generally accepted into the tradition is considered 'traditional' whether it was written 10 or 300 years ago!
I like what Mr Potts did to make the music his own. But the aspect of this music I most enjoy is sessions--playing with other people. That begs me to stay within the "generally accepted" bounds of how the tunes get played. No Pottsian adventures.
In my circles, it is widely known that Potts penned the Butterfly.
There is considerableargument elsewhere as to whether he wrote the whole thing or adapted two parts with an additional part. I don't really care too much if he did actually write it, but isn't the 4-part minor-ish Rambling pitchfork from Tommy Potts; that one I love. See last track on KBurke/Ged Foley album.
He didn't compose the Butterfly, he cobbled it together from two very old slip jigs his father John (a piper) played. The new title was for the resulting fluttery effect.
What he did with the music was wholly unique, he was very passionate in his playing, too. Technically his playing was far beyond the traditional approach to playing tunes, which is difficult enough, don't you think?
There are plenty of people who've gone on excursions with the music, Spillane, Ivers, etc. The result sounds like WASPy jazz to me. Tommy was more of a Coltrane. He was even more inspired on private recordings, too.
My favorite recording of the Butterfly is from a Paddy Keenan concert at NPU where he just played the beejeezus out of the thing, nothing fluttery.
Why do we have to put people into boxes? I hate being given two rather limited alternatives to choose from. I know this sort of thing is very popular on the internet but it tends to distort reality.
Of course T.Potts was a great man and I'm glad I've got a recording of his playing again (thanks to a session member).
Would one of the slip jigs be "The Rocky Road to Dublin"? I have always thought that "The Butterfly" is very similar to that, just played in a different key!
David a......The Charlatan argument is a reference to the fact that some players are often slated for moving away from what have become considered the standards of the tradition, even if they do so only slightly. Since Potts went so far in his explorations then his approach is possibly that of a charlatan to some. (Not me!)
I'm sorry to suggest we put him into a box of either genius or charlatan, it's just a handy title for the thread I guess. I'm mainly just wondering how someone would be viewed today if they started getting into a similar train of thought, I don't mean copying him as someone said, but taking the music in similar directions.
Finally regarding 'The Butterfly" whether or not Potts put parts from two different tunes together to create the Butterfly he is still generally credited with composing the tune. The fact is the tune as we know it didn't exist before Potts. Many tunes were created like this, part A from one tune and part B from another.
TheButterfly is a good tune[he is part composer]
I can take or leave his playing,although he is very clever to play the way he does.
Idont think his playing is good for dancing.
Parts two and three are Skin the Peeler in Ryan's, or Óró, a Thaidhg, a Ghrá as it's in Ceol Rince Vol I; first part is Bob and Joan, also in Vol I, which would be familiar to Northumbrian musicians before Tommy came along, at least. Sorry, can't even give him a third of a royalty, except perhaps in the way Paddy Moloney is a "composer" for arranging tunes in a medley (which he receives royalties for, BTW).
"He was almost completely shunned by the establishment in his lifetime."
From the sounds of things he didn't really strive for attention in the first place. He was very flashy musically but he wasn't trying to amaze an audience or anything, he played that way to express himself, I think.
I've only heard bits of his album a long time ago. Certainly odd! I'd listen again with interest if it came my way again, though I'd hardly go out of my way to get it. Where ITM went out on a limb to meet atonal arhythmic high modernist art music, perhaps - I wonder what Potts was interested in listening to.
Don't know about genius, but I've no reason to think he was a charlatan. I think he's the only trad player I've heard who has deliberately tweaked and twisted the music out of its normal rhythms. Makes a change, but if we all did it there'd be no sessions!
More genius than charlatan, I'd say, the latter having negative connotations. Better maybe to say he was a player with a highly individual and personal style [ and would that there were more of him around today ] . As for the "Butterfly", someone once pointed out to me the similarities between it and the old Jacobite song "Come Ye Ower Fae France". Interesting comparison, I think. I also think Kevin has it in a nutshell - "he played that way to express himself".
dickens.....Potts music wasn't meant for dancing so of course it wouldn't be good for the dancers....might be good for some contemporary dancers though!
Kevin whilst he didn't strive for attention he didn't go out of his way to be avoided, he wouldn't have made 'The Liffey Banks' if he didn't want attention. I think you are right in saying he played that way to express himself. My 'shunned' comment relates to the fact that 'The Liffey Banks' was met with a lot of bemusement when it came out and still is to some extent.
Nicholas, there are other players who' tweaked and twisted' the music out of its normal rhythms, especially in Donegal. Con Cassidy and John Doherty to name but two.
I believe Tommy Potts to be just brilliant. Like Patrick, I listen to the Liffey Banks several times a week. I don't know about the 'genius' aspect, but I figure eventually some of his stylistic nuances will slowly seep into my playing. Whenever I have his cd on, I can't do anything but listen. So, I naturally have it playing while I am driving. I'm 100% behind those players who strive to have their own voice. I'm struggling with that issue yself.
Arbo
Melodically anyway,
He emloyed the same technique of any other traditional fiddler at the time. Rolls, triplets, grace notes and bowing embellishments. But his ability to improvise on a simple 2 part folk melodies was sheer genuis!
The 2nd 2 parts of what became the butterfly were from a tune which Tommy called Bag 'n Bun. just another name from Skin the Peeler.
Thats what they called the tune in the south after the town Bagginbun which was called after the first 2 Norman ships who landed there, the Bagge and the Bonne.
I've read the threads on Tommy Potts and Butterfly, and how he may or may not have cobbled it together from other tunes. For example part of it resembles Bob and Joan. I've also read a few threads here on copyrights.
I am thinkning of putting it on a modest album I'm recording on my 8track. Please let me know if you think there is someone I should contact about paying for that privelige to see if it is worthwhile. Tried google already.
So i don't know if that means someone else initials or if that number applies to all works in Domain Public?
Elsewhere I see that---
Dp = Copyright designation for a class of published works that are dramatic in character, including musicals, operas and operettas
Thank you so very much for your investigative efforts, Richard!!!!!
I'm probably leaning at this point to maybe put it on and list Tommy Potts as the arranger....but then of course I'll rearrange into a medley with "Rolling Wave"
Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Tommy Potts (for those of you who don't know) was a fiddle player from Dublin who died in 1988. He approached ITM in a completely unique way, he played around with rhythm and phrasing and his variations were far more elaborate than most players before and afterwards. He was almost completely shunned by the establishment in his lifetime.
As far as I can tell he is still not exactly well known, many people have heard his name but how many of you have heard recordings of him, particularly his only album 'The Liffey Banks'?
If you haven't heard him perhaps you could go find his music listen to it and let us know what you think. Many of today's top fiddle players including players as diverse as Frankie Gavin, Paddy Glackin and Martin Hayes are huge admirers of Potts and Michael O'Suilleabhain admired him so much he did a thesis about him.
Yet despite the obvious respect he has I rarely ever hear anyone trying anything even close to what Potts did with ITM,
Do people think he was a once off and no one else should attempt to break away from the conventions of ITM like he did?
But of course in the end who cares......really, does anybody care?!!
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
I recorded The Butterfly on my CD and, through my lack of scholarship, failed to attribute the tune to him. I know we all play it too much but, for goodness sake, that's because it's a great tune, eh!
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Yes that's another thing, not many people know Tommy Potts composed The Butterfly do they?!
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
I had no idea that he composed The Butterfly. I always assumed that it was traditional. It's one of my favorite tunes.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
It is traditional, but it was composed by Tommy Potts! Any tune that gets generally accepted into the tradition is considered 'traditional' whether it was written 10 or 300 years ago!
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Well, yeah...but I mean I thought it was one of those tunes from long ago by persons unknown, where the by-line can only say "traditional."
It's obviously a part of the tradition, absolutely everyone knows the tune.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Marklar
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
I like what Mr Potts did to make the music his own. But the aspect of this music I most enjoy is sessions--playing with other people. That begs me to stay within the "generally accepted" bounds of how the tunes get played. No Pottsian adventures.
In my circles, it is widely known that Potts penned the Butterfly.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
There is considerableargument elsewhere as to whether he wrote the whole thing or adapted two parts with an additional part. I don't really care too much if he did actually write it, but isn't the 4-part minor-ish Rambling pitchfork from Tommy Potts; that one I love. See last track on KBurke/Ged Foley album.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Donough
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
He didn't compose the Butterfly, he cobbled it together from two very old slip jigs his father John (a piper) played. The new title was for the resulting fluttery effect.
What he did with the music was wholly unique, he was very passionate in his playing, too. Technically his playing was far beyond the traditional approach to playing tunes, which is difficult enough, don't you think?
There are plenty of people who've gone on excursions with the music, Spillane, Ivers, etc. The result sounds like WASPy jazz to me. Tommy was more of a Coltrane. He was even more inspired on private recordings, too.
My favorite recording of the Butterfly is from a Paddy Keenan concert at NPU where he just played the beejeezus out of the thing, nothing fluttery.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Actually Kevin he took two part of other tunes and made up the third
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Already discussed this year: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12620
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by slainte
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Genius.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by dafydd
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
"But of course in the end who cares......really, does anybody care?!!"
I don't get that. If you don't care, why post?
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Genius.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Irish Trad. Head
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Why do we have to put people into boxes? I hate being given two rather limited alternatives to choose from. I know this sort of thing is very popular on the internet but it tends to distort reality.
Of course T.Potts was a great man and I'm glad I've got a recording of his playing again (thanks to a session member).
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by kuec
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
I've been told that Patrick Ourceau listened to Liffey Banks every morning for a year, in part to try and get inside this genius' approach.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Ere! Where's me copy of The Sun?
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Would one of the slip jigs be "The Rocky Road to Dublin"? I have always thought that "The Butterfly" is very similar to that, just played in a different key!
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Fiddle Fancier
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Llig you either have a very short memory or no sense of irony if you ask about the "who cares" line of my post
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15179/comments#comment313089
David a......The Charlatan argument is a reference to the fact that some players are often slated for moving away from what have become considered the standards of the tradition, even if they do so only slightly. Since Potts went so far in his explorations then his approach is possibly that of a charlatan to some. (Not me!)
I'm sorry to suggest we put him into a box of either genius or charlatan, it's just a handy title for the thread I guess. I'm mainly just wondering how someone would be viewed today if they started getting into a similar train of thought, I don't mean copying him as someone said, but taking the music in similar directions.
Finally regarding 'The Butterfly" whether or not Potts put parts from two different tunes together to create the Butterfly he is still generally credited with composing the tune. The fact is the tune as we know it didn't exist before Potts. Many tunes were created like this, part A from one tune and part B from another.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
TheButterfly is a good tune[he is part composer]
I can take or leave his playing,although he is very clever to play the way he does.
Idont think his playing is good for dancing.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by anon
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Hey kilfarboy,
Parts two and three are Skin the Peeler in Ryan's, or Óró, a Thaidhg, a Ghrá as it's in Ceol Rince Vol I; first part is Bob and Joan, also in Vol I, which would be familiar to Northumbrian musicians before Tommy came along, at least. Sorry, can't even give him a third of a royalty, except perhaps in the way Paddy Moloney is a "composer" for arranging tunes in a medley (which he receives royalties for, BTW).
"He was almost completely shunned by the establishment in his lifetime."
From the sounds of things he didn't really strive for attention in the first place. He was very flashy musically but he wasn't trying to amaze an audience or anything, he played that way to express himself, I think.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
I've only heard bits of his album a long time ago. Certainly odd! I'd listen again with interest if it came my way again, though I'd hardly go out of my way to get it. Where ITM went out on a limb to meet atonal arhythmic high modernist art music, perhaps - I wonder what Potts was interested in listening to.
Don't know about genius, but I've no reason to think he was a charlatan. I think he's the only trad player I've heard who has deliberately tweaked and twisted the music out of its normal rhythms. Makes a change, but if we all did it there'd be no sessions!
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
More genius than charlatan, I'd say, the latter having negative connotations. Better maybe to say he was a player with a highly individual and personal style [ and would that there were more of him around today ] . As for the "Butterfly", someone once pointed out to me the similarities between it and the old Jacobite song "Come Ye Ower Fae France". Interesting comparison, I think. I also think Kevin has it in a nutshell - "he played that way to express himself".
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
dickens.....Potts music wasn't meant for dancing so of course it wouldn't be good for the dancers....might be good for some contemporary dancers though!
Kevin whilst he didn't strive for attention he didn't go out of his way to be avoided, he wouldn't have made 'The Liffey Banks' if he didn't want attention. I think you are right in saying he played that way to express himself. My 'shunned' comment relates to the fact that 'The Liffey Banks' was met with a lot of bemusement when it came out and still is to some extent.
Nicholas, there are other players who' tweaked and twisted' the music out of its normal rhythms, especially in Donegal. Con Cassidy and John Doherty to name but two.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
I believe Tommy Potts to be just brilliant. Like Patrick, I listen to the Liffey Banks several times a week. I don't know about the 'genius' aspect, but I figure eventually some of his stylistic nuances will slowly seep into my playing. Whenever I have his cd on, I can't do anything but listen. So, I naturally have it playing while I am driving. I'm 100% behind those players who strive to have their own voice. I'm struggling with that issue yself.
Arbo
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Imnotirish
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
The only recording I have of him is The Gathering:
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1093
He plays Little Jennifer and Spalpeen a Ruin if I'm not mistaken. Brilliantly, of course.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Genius...
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by meemtp
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Genius
# Posted on September 29th 2007 by Jode
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Genius,
Melodically anyway,
He emloyed the same technique of any other traditional fiddler at the time. Rolls, triplets, grace notes and bowing embellishments. But his ability to improvise on a simple 2 part folk melodies was sheer genuis!
The 2nd 2 parts of what became the butterfly were from a tune which Tommy called Bag 'n Bun. just another name from Skin the Peeler.
Thats what they called the tune in the south after the town Bagginbun which was called after the first 2 Norman ships who landed there, the Bagge and the Bonne.
Tommy
# Posted on October 1st 2007 by tompipes
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
I've read the threads on Tommy Potts and Butterfly, and how he may or may not have cobbled it together from other tunes. For example part of it resembles Bob and Joan. I've also read a few threads here on copyrights.
I am thinkning of putting it on a modest album I'm recording on my 8track. Please let me know if you think there is someone I should contact about paying for that privelige to see if it is worthwhile. Tried google already.
THANK YOU
Mick
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by LagansLove.Com
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
Mick - if you search http://iswcnet.cisac.org/ for the Butterfly by Potts it lists him as the arranger - it doesn't give a composer
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
hmmmm,,For composer it has DP 00039657154
So i don't know if that means someone else initials or if that number applies to all works in Domain Public?
Elsewhere I see that---
Dp = Copyright designation for a class of published works that are dramatic in character, including musicals, operas and operettas
Thank you so very much for your investigative efforts, Richard!!!!!
I'm probably leaning at this point to maybe put it on and list Tommy Potts as the arranger....but then of course I'll rearrange into a medley with "Rolling Wave"
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by LagansLove.Com
Re: Tommy Potts.Genius or Charlatan?
"Little Jennifer" from "The gathering" is mesmerizing. He plays first a jig, then a reel - Does anyone know the name of this second part ? thanks
# Posted on May 1st 2009 by GuillaumeD