I suppose this as a request for some cheap psychiatric advice and exposing my self to some teasing from those with strange senses of humor.
As I have bored everyone to tears with (why I have become more economical in my postings of late), I am learning box not that it matters specifically. Self taught for a year or so. Have been tutored for three months now by highly regarded teacher whose CD's many people here probably have.
Anyway. On with the kvetching.
There are lesson days where I can be really on top of things regardless of how long I have practised, and I have days that are positively embarassing despite very diligent practice. I have been playing other instruments professionally for over thirty years, so the embarrasing days really.....are embarrassing.
Any ideas, thoughts, advice, words of wisdom or any words of non-wisdom (not including copious amounts of alcohol) to deal with this?
In that vein, just take it easy. I'm sure you're doing fine. This is something I need to remind myself of too. Decent folk are their own worst critics and we need to lighten up on ourselves.
Now for the craic. Have you even thought of giving some booze to the box? Maybe if you're both piffled...?
Well, the most obvious advice is to just keep at it! A year isn't a very long time, but the more you do it, the faster you will progress, even if it doesn't feel that way.
You should find that even though there are bad days even when you've practiced, the more you play, the quicker you will hit the "plateaus" of playing. It's fun when you hit a new plateau (and not so fun when you've been stuck on one for a while). When I had only been playing for a year, I found that I could consciously "trigger" a new plateau in my playing by a solid week of practicing. One time, I just practiced for a couple of hours with a metronome, and my playing jumped up significantly. More recently, it takes something more significant, like a two week trip to Ireland to trigger newfound highs.
The thing is, there's a fine line between wanting to progress and getting frustrated. If you're not having fun with it, or you're in a "slump", put it down for a couple of days until you can come back to it with a new perspective.
I too have played another instrument for 40 + years (guitar) and have been at the box for 2 and a half. (i know ....2 strikes against me.... no make that 3 .I am playing clawhammer banjo as well (smartass smile)
I know exactly what you are talking about. There are days where everything just flows and days where a tune I should know in my sleep , sounds like I am just learning it. Like everyone says above , just stay with it and yes , it does seem to get easier.I make a point of playing everyday for at least 30 minutes so I am sure that is a helping factor.
tim
First off, you have to keep up! Playing music is just too wonderful!
I remind you that you are not only learning a mechanical skill. You are learning music, refining your ear, learning what sounds good and doesn't. So you're raising the standard for your playing all the time whether you realize it or not. At this state, it's my strong opinion that this dissatisfaction is a sign that you really are learning music, and doing so at a very respectable rate.
It is a phenomenon not limited to music that learning is not linear even if the effort has to be. You might be surprised, and sooner than you think, at how much it will together for you because of this daily effort. I had something similar happen to me with computing recently when I had a ghastly blue-screen-of-death experience. Because I'd kept up on learning in that area -- not a massive effort, just day-to-day keeping informed via articles and such -- I was able to cope, discovering in the process that I could do a lot more with the wretched things than I ever realized. I strongly suspect the same general type of experience is in the cards for you and your box.
So keep on doing what you're doing. It really is the right path.
One thing I've noticed over the years, and it has happened consistently so the first time wasn't just a one-off, is that if I go to a workshop my playing improves soon afterwards. It doesn't matter if it's a specifically fiddle workshop or a more general one for playing for dancers. Anyone else had a similar experience?
I've experienced that, too. Went to a 3 day workshop in Ireland and something that was mentioned about bowing just hit me like a ton of bricks, and it's made a big difference in my playing. (I think so anyway.) It hasn't worked with every workshop, but it did this last time. Sometimes, taking a break from lessons and doing whatever I want has helped too.
Keep at it Zippydw. It will come. I've dabbled at the concertina and my first few attempts made me feel like a complete idiot. Slow is your friend. I know how hard it is not to progress at the speed you would LIKE to. I think we've all felt that. No matter how I feel, I've just learned to play everyday and have as much fun as I can. And remember those lessons where everything seemed impossible and then you had it conquered by your next lesson. You've had weeks like that, haven't you?
"Slow is your freind". Yes indeed. But there is that point where the teacher says "let's play that one together". Buckle up. It's going to be a wild ride.
nofrets. To your question. That's the frustration. One week the conquering hero. The next, I leave feeling that somewhere in heaven, the patron saint of Accordion players is having a very hearty laugh.
To all, thanks for the kind words. I was feeling like the guy pushing the rock up the hill, but it rolls down every time he gets is up the hill.
My teacher told me once that as you improve, the details become more important, and so to be encouraged rather than discouraged. Hard to feel that positively when the frustration is hitting you in the face like that, but in the long run, it really is true. I've found that I've felt the most depairing when I was on the verge of learning something very important and fundamental to my playing---really correcting my technique.
Also, if you don't have a teacher, see if you can find one, or at least find some player in a session you admire to show you something new or help you with a tricky spot. Try and get as much input as you can from sources you respect---it'll trigger new ideas in your head and keep you from trudging over the same old rut every day.
I go though one of these periods about once a month for several days. A couple of things help. 1st, on a lark, I was in a fiddle shop and they were selling a 12-sided die (D&D anyone?) when I get stuck on a bit that just isn't working out, I roll the die and practice it that many times. Sometimes it's 1, sometimes it's 12. Then I stop and move on to something else (incidentally i can't seem to keep track for more than 6 play throughs, oh well) The randomness makes the practicing a little less tedious, and yes it always hits tedium at somepoint. 2nd, I play for someone that doesn't know the first thing about Irish music. Maybe they're just being nice when they praise me but at least I never have to hear them say: you know, your triplets are kinda muddy. I may still think I sound like shi'ite, but it's nice to know that somebody thinks it's nice to listen to. 3rd, by accident I stumbled on some old recording that a teacher had made for me and was blown away at how simplistic they were! No longer living in a center of Irish culture as I used to, I've been spending time woking from recordings of Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, etc...of course after only two years of playing I don't hold a candle to them, but the fact that I can learn from their recordings rather than the somewhat simplified stuff I was working with only a few months ago really made me feel pretty fantastic. I'd like to get in the habit of once a week or so recording myself playing acouple of tunes and having an archive of my improvement as it were, so then when i'm feeling down on my playing I can pull something up that's a year old and something that's a month old and compare.
I also definately feel that often I have to take a step down to take to steps forward. One of the first tunes I learned was Cooley's, and had gotten to the point where it was one of the few tunes I felt comfortable playing in front of other people. Then a friend suggested I change my bowing for a small potion of it and I learned a variation I liked better for the B part...for a month it almost hurt to listen to myself play. But now...ah, now it actually sounds like music and much better than anything I was playing before.
Have you tried checking your biorhythms ?
Or the more ancient sort, casting your astrological chart ?
Try recording the days when you feel you're absolute rubbish, then, after a while so you're not just projecting, try plotting these dates by one of these two methods.
There is also the effect that, as you learn, you become more critical of your own efforts.
Don't be afraid to take a break once in a while, take a few weeks off from playing, or play another instrument, or just listen. Or practice different tunes than the one giving you problems. Often I find that if I keep pounding my head against a wall that I take a break, and come back to find the wall gone.
Sorry, AlBrown, I don't agree. When you are just getting started on an instrument--say, the first couple of years--it's important to play every day. You need to get those brain pathways well established, and make the finger movements automatic.
And sometimes you say, "I really don't feel like it, I'll just play for a few minutes"--but once you get warmed up, you end up having a great practice. If not, you quit after 5 nimutes. But at least you reminded your brain and fingers what to do, so it's easier next time.
a break can make you hungry to get back to it.Short periods of playing rather than hours on end seems to be good advise from alot of people Ive meet. But enjoy it thats the main thing.
Good points, mickray, sometimes too long a break can be counterproductive, especially for a newbie. And you do need to get in the habit of practicing regularly. I like your idea of starting to practice consistently, but stopping sometimes if things just aren't working.
And I like saint's idea of short periods of practice rather than one big marathon practice session.
Myself, I will take a break from one instrument to work on another, but I rarely go a day without making some sort of music.
By necessity, I am trying the the play another instrument method. I was asked to do something with my wifes choir so I am having to spend more time on piano and organ. But I am still trying to keep working on the box. But I am making a point of spending part of the time on older tunes I (should have , may have, might have) learned.
Still one good day, then a clunker. This is the first time I have ever had lessons on any instrument and so I am figuring that my sensitivity to this has to do with having the discipline and expectations of a real teacher.....not just sitting there alone banging away learning bad habits.
I am also beginning to put some stock in the biorhythms theory above.
I teased my teacher that his approach had this strange zen character to it.....
look, irish button accordion is a very tough instrument to learn. one year is no time at all. upon telling a master teacher & fiddler (who has teamed with one of the best box players out there and knows about box) during clancy week one time that i had been playing box about four years, he said, "oh, but you're just a baby," meaning, in the music, as a musician. don't know if you are in america, but adult learners, particularly the american ones, have lots of dopey misconceptions about expecting to get good quickly, or even, get to session speed quickly. you can't. those teenagers in ireland who are so amazing have been training for years, and not by going to open sessions. they are with teachers who train them in technique and musicianship like classical teachers do.
so.....my advice is, take it slow in both senses---don't have that silly idea that it's going to happen right away. and also, play slow. playing slow is the way to become fast. and if you do insist on "pushing" your speed, do it by finding the fastest you can play and still play well (rhythm, beat, fingering, not choking or stunting note enunciation, keeping your button inflection smooth, etc.), and practicing at that speed. it will gradually rise. it's the folks who try raise speed by playing FASTER than they can play well....who run into problems.
i have the on-again, off-again, biorhythm thing too. and i lose ground if i go without playing for more than a day or two. guess what? so do "the masters." all of them. it's just that, they have practiced and played for so long that their "lowest common denominator," off-day performance sounds pretty darned good.
A concert pianist (it might have been Artur Rubinstein, I'm not sure) once remarked that if he stopped practicing for one day he noticed it;
no practice for two days, the orchestra and conductor noticed;
no practice for three days the audience noticed.
On the other hand, there are players who can leave the instrument alone for weeks and then come back to it and resuming playing like they've never got off the bus.
After leaving the army in 1899, Fritz Kreisler wnet off to practice for a couple of weeks before embarking on his solo career. He never practiced again
My advice would be to not look for reward,. just practise.
With one eye on the destination, you have only one for the road.
Play for the enjoyment of playing, not some achievment some time down the road. live for today.
enjoy
Dealing with learning curve frustration
Dealing with learning curve frustration
I suppose this as a request for some cheap psychiatric advice and exposing my self to some teasing from those with strange senses of humor.
As I have bored everyone to tears with (why I have become more economical in my postings of late), I am learning box not that it matters specifically. Self taught for a year or so. Have been tutored for three months now by highly regarded teacher whose CD's many people here probably have.
Anyway. On with the kvetching.
There are lesson days where I can be really on top of things regardless of how long I have practised, and I have days that are positively embarassing despite very diligent practice. I have been playing other instruments professionally for over thirty years, so the embarrasing days really.....are embarrassing.
Any ideas, thoughts, advice, words of wisdom or any words of non-wisdom (not including copious amounts of alcohol) to deal with this?
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Most decent folk are the hardest on themselves.
In that vein, just take it easy. I'm sure you're doing fine. This is something I need to remind myself of too. Decent folk are their own worst critics and we need to lighten up on ourselves.
Now for the craic. Have you even thought of giving some booze to the box? Maybe if you're both piffled...?
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Well, the most obvious advice is to just keep at it! A year isn't a very long time, but the more you do it, the faster you will progress, even if it doesn't feel that way.
You should find that even though there are bad days even when you've practiced, the more you play, the quicker you will hit the "plateaus" of playing. It's fun when you hit a new plateau (and not so fun when you've been stuck on one for a while). When I had only been playing for a year, I found that I could consciously "trigger" a new plateau in my playing by a solid week of practicing. One time, I just practiced for a couple of hours with a metronome, and my playing jumped up significantly. More recently, it takes something more significant, like a two week trip to Ireland to trigger newfound highs.
The thing is, there's a fine line between wanting to progress and getting frustrated. If you're not having fun with it, or you're in a "slump", put it down for a couple of days until you can come back to it with a new perspective.
Pete
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
I too have played another instrument for 40 + years (guitar) and have been at the box for 2 and a half. (i know ....2 strikes against me.... no make that 3 .I am playing clawhammer banjo as well (smartass smile)
I know exactly what you are talking about. There are days where everything just flows and days where a tune I should know in my sleep , sounds like I am just learning it. Like everyone says above , just stay with it and yes , it does seem to get easier.I make a point of playing everyday for at least 30 minutes so I am sure that is a helping factor.
tim
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by timK
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Greetings:
First off, you have to keep up! Playing music is just too wonderful!
I remind you that you are not only learning a mechanical skill. You are learning music, refining your ear, learning what sounds good and doesn't. So you're raising the standard for your playing all the time whether you realize it or not. At this state, it's my strong opinion that this dissatisfaction is a sign that you really are learning music, and doing so at a very respectable rate.
It is a phenomenon not limited to music that learning is not linear even if the effort has to be. You might be surprised, and sooner than you think, at how much it will together for you because of this daily effort. I had something similar happen to me with computing recently when I had a ghastly blue-screen-of-death experience. Because I'd kept up on learning in that area -- not a massive effort, just day-to-day keeping informed via articles and such -- I was able to cope, discovering in the process that I could do a lot more with the wretched things than I ever realized. I strongly suspect the same general type of experience is in the cards for you and your box.
So keep on doing what you're doing. It really is the right path.
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Learning to play new instruments does tend to keep a musician humble and able to understand beginners/students more easily.
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by morning star
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
One thing I've noticed over the years, and it has happened consistently so the first time wasn't just a one-off, is that if I go to a workshop my playing improves soon afterwards. It doesn't matter if it's a specifically fiddle workshop or a more general one for playing for dancers. Anyone else had a similar experience?
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Lazyhound,
I've experienced that, too. Went to a 3 day workshop in Ireland and something that was mentioned about bowing just hit me like a ton of bricks, and it's made a big difference in my playing. (I think so anyway.) It hasn't worked with every workshop, but it did this last time. Sometimes, taking a break from lessons and doing whatever I want has helped too.
Keep at it Zippydw. It will come. I've dabbled at the concertina and my first few attempts made me feel like a complete idiot. Slow is your friend. I know how hard it is not to progress at the speed you would LIKE to. I think we've all felt that. No matter how I feel, I've just learned to play everyday and have as much fun as I can. And remember those lessons where everything seemed impossible and then you had it conquered by your next lesson. You've had weeks like that, haven't you?
Take care!
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by nofrets
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
"Slow is your freind". Yes indeed. But there is that point where the teacher says "let's play that one together". Buckle up. It's going to be a wild ride.
nofrets. To your question. That's the frustration. One week the conquering hero. The next, I leave feeling that somewhere in heaven, the patron saint of Accordion players is having a very hearty laugh.
To all, thanks for the kind words. I was feeling like the guy pushing the rock up the hill, but it rolls down every time he gets is up the hill.
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
My teacher told me once that as you improve, the details become more important, and so to be encouraged rather than discouraged. Hard to feel that positively when the frustration is hitting you in the face like that, but in the long run, it really is true. I've found that I've felt the most depairing when I was on the verge of learning something very important and fundamental to my playing---really correcting my technique.
Also, if you don't have a teacher, see if you can find one, or at least find some player in a session you admire to show you something new or help you with a tricky spot. Try and get as much input as you can from sources you respect---it'll trigger new ideas in your head and keep you from trudging over the same old rut every day.
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
I go though one of these periods about once a month for several days. A couple of things help. 1st, on a lark, I was in a fiddle shop and they were selling a 12-sided die (D&D anyone?) when I get stuck on a bit that just isn't working out, I roll the die and practice it that many times. Sometimes it's 1, sometimes it's 12. Then I stop and move on to something else (incidentally i can't seem to keep track for more than 6 play throughs, oh well) The randomness makes the practicing a little less tedious, and yes it always hits tedium at somepoint. 2nd, I play for someone that doesn't know the first thing about Irish music. Maybe they're just being nice when they praise me but at least I never have to hear them say: you know, your triplets are kinda muddy. I may still think I sound like shi'ite, but it's nice to know that somebody thinks it's nice to listen to. 3rd, by accident I stumbled on some old recording that a teacher had made for me and was blown away at how simplistic they were! No longer living in a center of Irish culture as I used to, I've been spending time woking from recordings of Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, etc...of course after only two years of playing I don't hold a candle to them, but the fact that I can learn from their recordings rather than the somewhat simplified stuff I was working with only a few months ago really made me feel pretty fantastic. I'd like to get in the habit of once a week or so recording myself playing acouple of tunes and having an archive of my improvement as it were, so then when i'm feeling down on my playing I can pull something up that's a year old and something that's a month old and compare.
I also definately feel that often I have to take a step down to take to steps forward. One of the first tunes I learned was Cooley's, and had gotten to the point where it was one of the few tunes I felt comfortable playing in front of other people. Then a friend suggested I change my bowing for a small potion of it and I learned a variation I liked better for the B part...for a month it almost hurt to listen to myself play. But now...ah, now it actually sounds like music and much better than anything I was playing before.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by matan_fiddler
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Have you tried checking your biorhythms ?
Or the more ancient sort, casting your astrological chart ?
Try recording the days when you feel you're absolute rubbish, then, after a while so you're not just projecting, try plotting these dates by one of these two methods.
There is also the effect that, as you learn, you become more critical of your own efforts.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Don't be afraid to take a break once in a while, take a few weeks off from playing, or play another instrument, or just listen. Or practice different tunes than the one giving you problems. Often I find that if I keep pounding my head against a wall that I take a break, and come back to find the wall gone.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Sorry, AlBrown, I don't agree. When you are just getting started on an instrument--say, the first couple of years--it's important to play every day. You need to get those brain pathways well established, and make the finger movements automatic.
And sometimes you say, "I really don't feel like it, I'll just play for a few minutes"--but once you get warmed up, you end up having a great practice. If not, you quit after 5 nimutes. But at least you reminded your brain and fingers what to do, so it's easier next time.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by John Galt
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
a break can make you hungry to get back to it.Short periods of playing rather than hours on end seems to be good advise from alot of people Ive meet. But enjoy it thats the main thing.
# Posted on September 25th 2007 by Saint
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Good points, mickray, sometimes too long a break can be counterproductive, especially for a newbie. And you do need to get in the habit of practicing regularly. I like your idea of starting to practice consistently, but stopping sometimes if things just aren't working.
And I like saint's idea of short periods of practice rather than one big marathon practice session.
Myself, I will take a break from one instrument to work on another, but I rarely go a day without making some sort of music.
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
Great input.
By necessity, I am trying the the play another instrument method. I was asked to do something with my wifes choir so I am having to spend more time on piano and organ. But I am still trying to keep working on the box. But I am making a point of spending part of the time on older tunes I (should have , may have, might have) learned.
Still one good day, then a clunker. This is the first time I have ever had lessons on any instrument and so I am figuring that my sensitivity to this has to do with having the discipline and expectations of a real teacher.....not just sitting there alone banging away learning bad habits.
I am also beginning to put some stock in the biorhythms theory above.
I teased my teacher that his approach had this strange zen character to it.....
# Posted on September 26th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
look, irish button accordion is a very tough instrument to learn. one year is no time at all. upon telling a master teacher & fiddler (who has teamed with one of the best box players out there and knows about box) during clancy week one time that i had been playing box about four years, he said, "oh, but you're just a baby," meaning, in the music, as a musician. don't know if you are in america, but adult learners, particularly the american ones, have lots of dopey misconceptions about expecting to get good quickly, or even, get to session speed quickly. you can't. those teenagers in ireland who are so amazing have been training for years, and not by going to open sessions. they are with teachers who train them in technique and musicianship like classical teachers do.
so.....my advice is, take it slow in both senses---don't have that silly idea that it's going to happen right away. and also, play slow. playing slow is the way to become fast. and if you do insist on "pushing" your speed, do it by finding the fastest you can play and still play well (rhythm, beat, fingering, not choking or stunting note enunciation, keeping your button inflection smooth, etc.), and practicing at that speed. it will gradually rise. it's the folks who try raise speed by playing FASTER than they can play well....who run into problems.
i have the on-again, off-again, biorhythm thing too. and i lose ground if i go without playing for more than a day or two. guess what? so do "the masters." all of them. it's just that, they have practiced and played for so long that their "lowest common denominator," off-day performance sounds pretty darned good.
# Posted on September 27th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
A concert pianist (it might have been Artur Rubinstein, I'm not sure) once remarked that if he stopped practicing for one day he noticed it;
no practice for two days, the orchestra and conductor noticed;
no practice for three days the audience noticed.
On the other hand, there are players who can leave the instrument alone for weeks and then come back to it and resuming playing like they've never got off the bus.
# Posted on September 27th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
After leaving the army in 1899, Fritz Kreisler wnet off to practice for a couple of weeks before embarking on his solo career. He never practiced again
# Posted on September 27th 2007 by ...
Re: Dealing with learning curve frustration
My advice would be to not look for reward,. just practise.
With one eye on the destination, you have only one for the road.
Play for the enjoyment of playing, not some achievment some time down the road. live for today.
enjoy
# Posted on September 27th 2007 by piobagusfidil