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Green eyed monsters?

Green eyed monsters?

I would like to hear people's opinion on a recent experience. I want to avoid names and places etc, because I do not want to get into personalities

I went on holiday this year to a town, in Ireland, that I had not been to before. Found out where the session was and went along. Session is led by a lovely player, used to be part of a big band here, which I really liked and have most of their recordings.

I asked if people minded if I joined in. I was made to feel welcome. Some nice tunes I threw in my tuppence worth. Everyone happy, I started a set which people seemed to enjoy. The well known player said she really enjoyed my playing. So I thought, good enough, looks like this should be a good night.

There was another fiddle player, who, with the best will in the world, wasn't great. She asked me to join in with a set of hornpipes. I said I didn't know them. In fact I do not know any hornpipes. I do not like them. She played them any way as she is perfectly entitled to do. I sat in silence, because there was not much else I could do. I clapped at the end. She then started scowling at me.She started a set of reels at an impossibly past pace. I played as best I could and made no comment.

By this stage, the atmosphere was starting to get tense. Or perhaps in fairness it wasn't and it is just my perception of it. Anyway, wisely or unwisely, I asked the guitarist to have a loan of his guitar. I asked him if he minded me changing the tuning from dadfad to dadgad/ The guitar simply was not in tune generally and so I tuned up. I asked the leader of the session to play a set. She did I accompanied her. She said "lovely, you played that very well".

And that was it. I was not spoken to for the rest of the night.

Now I do not know what happened and I am sure my subjective experience is a factor here. But I got a sense that people felt I was arrogant or too clever by half or something.

My feeling about it is this. Most people who hear me would probably say 'Yeah he's good enough'. I am welcome at sessions I've tried to play in and in the North, the standard is so high that does mean something.

Now I know how good or bad I am. What I play is in tune, is in time, is very precise and I have good tone. I am not however in the least talented. I play at the standard I do because I am reasonably bright, love the music and work very, very, very hard. Nothing I do is original or musical in the sense that Tommy Peoples or Matt Molloy are musical.

I do not have a problem with this in the least. Belfast has the rare privielge of its endless brillaint sessions. The best must be the Duke of York on a Thursday night. There you will find John Mc Sherry and Donal O'Connor. They are truly brilliant. I do not play at that session, though the lads are terribly welcoming to everyone who wants to join in, because I have nothing to add. They are better than me because like me they are bright and work hard, but very diifferently to me, they are very talented. It is not their fault they are talented, and it is not my fault I am not. That is simply the way it worked out. It would not make any sense to get cross because they can play better than I can. It seems better just to celebrate the achievement of people who can play so well.

So, all in all, it seems a pity that if you are in a session and people think you play better than them, they get cross. What do you think

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Pól

Re: Green eyed monsters?

>it seems a pity that if you are in a session and people think you play better than them, they get cross

I never have that problem :-)

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Nick Splease

Re: Green eyed monsters?

If I'm in a session and people are better than me (which is pretty much always) I feel that hearing them play is a privelige. I see a session with fantastic musicians as a private gig (with audience participation!) and I feel honoured to be able to listen in such an intimate setting : )

And if I'm not in such an angelic mood, I rest assured in the knowledge that I can probably play the nose flute better than the best sessioners : )

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by mehitabel23

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Whenever a high-level player drifts into one of our humble little sessions, we cherish the hell out of it - we often stall them from leaving until we've milked every single tune out of them. It seems to me you played every card politely - who knows why some people get put out. Then again, you know how egg-shell thin some people's egos can be...;-}

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Some sessions are concerned more with playing tunes as a group of like-minded friends rather than with celebrating the musical achievements of strangers and you may have been at one of those, Pól.

Although playing tunes with an out-of-tune guitar isn't polite, neither is it a particularly polite move to borrow a stranger's instrument, mess with its tuning then outplay him with it. Next time don't borrow. If you actually told the fiddler that you didn't like hornpipes, as you are perfectly entitled to do, that would not have been a good move either, or maybe complimenting her tunes, as was done for you, rather than clapping would have been more appropriate. Maybe your asking the leader to play a set so you could show your stuff on someone else's quitar was seen as presumptuous because you were a blow-in. The final polite compliment from the leader to you followed by silence seems to indicate that in the final analysis you were seen to be *performing* for the group rather than fitting in with them. You imply that *everyone* quit talking to you instead of appreciating you and your versatility. If that's accurate, I'd say you were too clever by half. It's too bad they couldn't appreciate for who you are, or maybe they did and just couldn't find words to express it.

Who know? You probably can't be sure what happened unless you go back there, don't borrow instruments, let the session leader lead, play your fiddle on the tunes you can like everyone else, play a hornpipe they know, buy a round of drinks and discover if anyone talks to you.:-)

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by joesmith

Re: Green eyed monsters?

I guess you could have asked the session leader during a quiet moment away from the session, whether you'd upset them in some way. But sound like just "one of those things". I guess the most difficult part of your experience must have been actually leaving the session?

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Mark Harmer

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Maybe they'd had a bad day, and maybe, they were desperate to have someone help them with their own confidence in those hornpipes. It is so easy to misunderstand others, and in a session there is often not enough time to communicate effectively between tunes. Hopefully, if I understand this, you didn't take it personally. Don't look for fault in either yourself or the other, such things happen... It sounds like, aside from the one person, that it was just that, one person. If the mood was general, then just possibly, as a visitor, you might have overstepped the mark by doing more 'contributing' and 'directing' than just tagging along. Whatever the situation, it is 'their' session, and there is a history, and it may be the person who you slighted unintentionally, was part of that history.

So, the moral of the story ~ learn more hornpipes, and get an understanding of them verging on appreciation. The lack of that may not be the fault of the form, but of yourself. I can't for the life of me imagine anyone hating a form, but I know they exist. Some folks hate polkas. Sometimes dealving deeper you find that they don't actually hate polkas, but they hate the way they are played in sessions, in general, not the fault of the form. Maybe that is your case with hornpipes, or maybe it is just a lack of understanding, which often accompanies a lack of appreciation. However you cut it, hornpipes and their related forms ~ barndances, Germans, Highland Flings, etc. ~ are an integral part of this music we share a love and passion for. Try to get past your bias, learn some hornpipes... You say you are especially fond of the music of Donegal, well, the hornpipe family is an important part of that.

Whew! ~ where did that come from? Anyway, best of luck with your music and your future travels... Walk softly...

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by ceolachan

Re: Green eyed monsters?

As with any social situation, what is appropriate depends very much on the people present and the specific context in which words and deeds occur. It sounds to me, based on your side of the story, that it is likely that you behaved reasonably. And yet the people were threatened or annoyed by you...or something. Don't let this stuff overly trouble you. It happens to all of us at some point, and I think often for the most insubstantial and petty of reasons. Sessions are teeming with undercurrents of anxiety, insecurity, snobbishness, meanness, emotional instability, and all sorts of other baggage and psychopathologies. The fact that the sessions keep happening at all, and usually don't end in physical violence, is a minor miracle. The fact that you are concerned about whether you are behaving appropriately indicates to me that there is not a problem -- it's when you stop caring that the real trouble starts.

I say just hope for better luck next time. If you are having the cold reception thing repeatedly, then I would be more concerned.

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by timmy!

Re: Green eyed monsters?

firstly i think the way those musicians treated you was way out of line: sessions are a social thing.

on the other hand, something which i think is useful for joining sessions is to listen to the general style, playing level, and interaction between the musicians before you join in... see who's the most approachable to ask to join in, suss out weather it's old style, or more modern, fast/slow and doctor your playing to suit, so you're not playin in a way that might inadvertently intimidate some people with your skill...

now, sometimes i bother with this rule, other times i couldn't give a sh*te and please myself so i'm really not one to preach! but it is a social encounter with different personalities and to communicate with them most effectively, you have to be at their level... and that way you will actually get the most out of the experience.. a good analogy is how i'd talk/act differently to my m8s in a disco/club than i would to sister nuala!

just food for thought and an extra skill you might enjoy developing.. this is in no way a justification for the silly people in your story..but it can help you get round the narrow minds a bit better....

all the best,

martin.

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by martin t

Re: Red-eyed monsters?

"The fact that you are concerned about whether you are behaving appropriately indicates to me that there is not a problem -- it's when you stop caring that the real trouble starts."

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by crazy_fingerz

" ~ something which i think is useful for joining sessions is to listen ~ "

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by martin t

Yes, well said, we can only know the one side of this story. Someone recommended opening a conversation, to ask if you might have overstepped somewhere. That seems a good practice, one where there is at least an opportunity to learn from someone else's perspective of ourselves. I've been there, having offended without intention. Discussion cleared it. I've kown other times where folks have not talked and the bad feelings remained for years, sometimes caused over the most foolish of things, like a simple misunderstanding, or a clumsy discourtesy. You are reflecting on this, and sharing it, considering the situation as you remember it. That shows consideration and consideration is a good thing, even if it is late and the situation and people involved are a distance, in time and geography. That is another reason why it is best to try and deal with it as soon as possible. You never know, there is likely to be something to learn from the interaction. I know that mostly that has been the case for me, and more often than not I've ended up with either a better understanding, a new potential friend, or both...

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by ceolachan

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Until I discovered this board a few years ago, I would have walked in to a session, sat down and said "away youse go, give it youir worst" and joined in.

A lot of rules on this board are nonsense. The scene you describe sounds weird, unless it is a few friends who play together and do not want strangers "messing up" their thing. I use "messing up" from their strange viewpoint.

And you are right about the welcome in some places in Belfast. I arrived in Belfast one night, White's on a Saturday, and it was Donal and John, and "Wreckin' Rea" Maria was with them then. Made me welcome, and I had a bodhran!

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss

Re: Green eyed monsters?

I have noticed one thing over the years - the better the player is, the less complaining they do about the other players "messing things up..."

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit

Re: Green eyed monsters?

That's because the better players have invariably been there themselves in the past and have more understanding.

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by lazyhound

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Anything you can reply to these "I did this and thay did that then I went like this and they did that and it was back aout of order etc etc ..." threads is mere conjecture. It's imposible to comment constructively unless you were there.

(However, I really don't understand how someone can get to a place in this music where they play: " in tune, in time, are very precise and I have good tone", and where: "Most people who hear me would probably say 'Yeah he's good enough'. ... and not know even one hornpipe. Not one? As with most posts in this category, something fishy.)

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by llig leahcim

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Pól was there by chance one cynical fiddler at that session? Won't mention any names. I go both ways on hornpipes. I like playing some of them. Others I could do without. How do you know you don't like them if you don't try? As far as judging someone else's session. Don't know. I wasn't there & it could be different next week. Social gatherings are a two way street. You may well know what you did "right". You may not have the foggiest if you did anything "wrong". Perhaps it is impossible to know from just in one night amongst a room of new acquaintances. If you figure out how to break the ice ~ please pass along that information. BTW You did take over for the guitarist at one point. Perhaps something subtle like, "Someone is out. Could we all tune?"
He still might tune correctly. But at least you would not place direct attention on his shortcomings. Cheers!

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Random_notes

Re: Green eyed monsters?

He still might tune incorrectly. My bad.

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Random_notes

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Maybe you just tried to do too much.
Personally, I'm not one for loaning my instruments, and if someone tried to tune it, that would be a step too far - just because you feel that something's wrong, to try to fix it might be taken as a criticism, if you were a stranger in the group. I remember once leaping in and trying to tune a 5-string banjo for a visitor - it turned out the 5th-string key was shot, had stripped the thread, and so the whole banjo was tuned down to the pitch it would take - and I ruined it ! Shame and embarrassement now, and the lady never did return either !
There's been a lot of discussion in the past about what to do your first time in a session new to you; it's nearly always included the advice to feel your way in cautiously till the other regulars get to know you.
There was nothing you did that might have been taken wrong amongst a group of friends - it's just that they were not yet your friends. If you go back, I suggest play a little, buy a round, and say nothing unless you're asked.

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Guernsey Pete

Re: Green eyed monsters?

I might try lending my harp to someone to tune one day - that would certainly occupy them for ...oh... ever!!

# Posted on September 23rd 2007 by Mark Harmer

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Now this is what I love about this board. Can I thank everyone for a very sensible measured discussion. Not everyone agreed with me, but made perfectly sensible posts. All joking apart I really feel that this has given me something to think about

Cheers all!

# Posted on September 24th 2007 by Pól

Re: Green eyed monsters?

Pol, Anyone who has a whole class of tunes, like hornpipes, that they refuse to learn, and announces that to the group when visiting a session, needs to step back a bit and look at themselves in a mirror. You come across as a bit judgemental. A session is a social gathering, and turning your nose up at something someone else enjoys is not going to make any friends. My advice is lighten up, learn a few hornpipes (it is not like the more common ones are difficult). Some tunes that people turn their noses up are other people's cherished favorites--if it is a tune you consider tired, dress it up a little as you play with a few additional ornaments, and that will help make it fresh for you.

# Posted on September 25th 2007 by AlBrown

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