a tune is recommended to him to learn but he doesn't have a recording of the tune available or anyone to learn it aurally from, in fact the only easily obtainable resource is a music book like O'Neill's?
I'm sure I'm not the first to notice that Llig doesn't approve of ye olde sheet music but I really think he's like an ostrich with his head in the sand on this one.
Firstly I agree it's far far far better to learn the music by ear, but I am also convinced that once a musician has gained a good enough understanding of the music then there is no reason why they can't learn a tune from sheet music and play it just as well as Llig or anyone else can when learnt by ear. Many of the greatest players have learnt at least some of their repertoire from sheet-music.
Learning how to read and write music doesn't handicap you, it actually opens up a whole new world to you. I used to be wary of sheet-music, I was convinced sheet-music and music theory were the work of the devil, but that was when I was 13! I grew up then.....seems like Llig never got over his teenage angst.
I think it's a bad idea for anyone beginning to learn this music to use any form of written notation. And I would actively discourage them from doing so. Especially if they can already read music and play something other than this music.
If you can already play, then by all means use the dots.
People don't reccomend tunes to me, I reccomend myself to tunes.
and with this serious cockness, i really think you owe it to us llig to give us a recording of you! if you have nothing to prove to us, then let us learn from your mastery!!
Michael puts a lot of work into explaining his position. I don't (and didn't) necessarily agree with everything he said, but he and others made a lot of good points that are worth considering.
You know Llig, I almost agree with you believe it or not. I thought you were 100% against anyone of any level learning tunes from sheet-music. You come across on this site as a complete sheet-music basher, so hopefully my post and your response has helped clear up this little bit of confusion.
I understand the no-sheet music for beginners point and almost agree with it but there is one historical example that makes me think again.
Do you know that Padraic O'Keeffe used to make a point of notating everything for his students, particularly the beginners, he'd notate the tunes in his own system and include bowing and so on. Why did he do this shocking act of betrayal to the 'tradition' you may ask? Well so the young kids could easily go back over the music he taught them and learn it correctly.
Julia Clifford and Denis Murphy were students of his......and they didn't turn out too badly now did they?!
Finally maybe people don't recommend tunes to you cos they're afraid you'll eat their head off for suggesting you try anything.
k, i read lligs first post anyhow and it's fine on a basic level but what is staff notation? to me its a means of communication of yes, often, the skeleton of a tune. but the issue i think llig has is with the issue of performance practice and perhaps that's what we should be discussing... perhaps to compile a list of the issues of performance practice in irish traditional music (which yeah, can't be communicated through dots) and use it as a reference point and referral for beginner musicians of this style... and a list of recordings would be a big part of that i'll agree...
although, as dave (frisbee) said, for someone who is well grounded in aspects of performance practice in a traditional irish style, then the communication of the tune through staff notation should not generate a less than authentic performance of the tune....
although, as dave (frisbee) said, for someone who is well grounded in aspects of performance practice in a traditional irish style, then the communication of the tune through staff notation should not generate a less than authentic performance of the tune....
i can also authoritively say that the practice of stylistically grounded musicians learning from sheet music was common practice in east donegal between circa 1850 and 1930...
If sheet music is used in conjunction with learning by ear it can be helpful in speeding the learning process. Learning by ear speeds the learning of sight reading and vice versa. I learned and have taught this way. I've never noticed a difference in getting the "heart" of the music between students who learn by ear in conjunction with sight reading and those who learn totally by ear. Learning purely by the dots is another story, however, as Irish music doesn't lend itself to sheet music particularly well. My accordion has 41 treble keys and 120 bass buttons, as opposed to the smaller squeezeboxes more popularly associated with the music, so I have to be extra careful about learning and teaching the more complex and potentially more rewarding instrument.
I've been on this site for only two years now, but in that two years, the subject of notation in ITM has reared its ugly head quite often; more so than it should.
I hear things like "you should never learn ITM through the notation" and "no one can come to this by using the dots" and it's all so silly and unnecessary. Sometimes I think that the anti-dot crowd can't read music at all and is somehow apologizing for it.
Music notation tells you two things- 1) the pitch of each note, and 2) how long you hold it. Nothing else. Every classically-trained musician reading this will surely agree with me when I say that no one expects you to play Bach the way you play Beethoven; or Tschaikovsky the way you play Stravinsky. Those stylistic differences can never be captured in the notation. Once you learn the correct notes and how long to hold them, you study the individual styles; the dynamics; the interpretation; the tradition. Notation is pitch and duration. That's all.
So when it comes to ITM, what's the big debate? Don't our reels and jigs demand certain pitches? There sure are lots of posts on tuning correctly. And rhythm- isn't ITM all about rhythm?
Are you able to listen to music slowly and learn it aurally? Yes? Great! That's a wonderful way to learn. Can you read the notated pitches? Great! You still have lots to interject into the music. The notation may take you there quicker but no real musician opens up O'Neills or the Comhaltas book and expects a dry reading to be ITM any more than a dry reading of the pitches in a Bach fugue or Mozart sonata.
It would take me a lot longer to learn a tune by listening to it over and over, when at a glance I can see the pitch patterns and the rhythms. But no real musician stops at that point, since it's only the beginning of the learning process.
The end goal is to play our session tunes well. Whether we come to a tune by listening or by reading, we still have an obligation to play it correctly, within the tradition.
So, many of old masters notated tunes for their students. But they would tell their students to bring tape or mini disc recorders to record tunes, if they were alive now. This saves much time and trouble in teaching, and gives you a much better idea of how tunes should be played.
Those people who stick to the dots closely even after playing what they consider ITM for a while are in my opinion most likely those that are unable (or unwilling or prevented by some other twist of fate or character flaw) to pick up the proper style from recordings or life musicians anyways. If they were left with only recordings and no sheetmusic available, they'd probably never get started. (If that's good or bad is a different question, but music is there to give joy and pleasure, which it certainly does for those people as well.)
Those that come to the music with the right approach and attitude take out of sheetmusic, recordings, concerts, etc. whatever they can to learn and to keep learning.
Sheetmusic can be an entry point or the final destination - it all depends what the individual person makes with it.
I totally agree with Greg, the music notation gives you the bare bones of the tune, but interpretation and style are another matter. However once a good player has learnt a tune from the dots they will add their own style, ornamentation, etc. to it. Without people like O'neill who collected and wrote down tunes in the era before recording, many good tunes would be lost forever.
Firstly, you cannot learn this music from the dots. There is universal agreement here for this and for that I am truly thankful.
Secondly, anyone who thinks they can learn a tune from the dots is tragically deluded. The dots carry only a miniscule of the information that is a diddley tune. A recording is better, but still woefully inadequate. Even a very good recording by a good player is only three times through on a particular day in a particular mood. To know a tune is to have many many years of playing and listening to it, and understanding and knowing its relations.
Thirdly, this diddley music has a lot of notes in it, most of which are not represented in your average dots. Your average dots are often described as being the skeleton of the tune that the musician can then put the flesh onto. I profoundly disagree with this analogy, I think it's much more accurate to take a more holistic view where every bit of the sound is equally important and flexible. However, I think it's reasonably straight forward that this, so called, skeleton bit is the easy bit, compared to the twiddly diddley bits, not to mention the so called variations. So the killer point is, if you have trouble getting the easy bit by ear alone, you haven't a feckin cat in hell's chance of getting the rest of it.
Yes I read music, But the irony is, the vast majority of times I use it is when people mention tunes on this website and I don't know what tune they are refering to. I do a quick seach of the name, glance at the dots and can say, Oh yeah, that one.
OK, an admission. I occasionally - and it is occasionally - learn tunes from dots. When I do, I always look for lots of different versions of it before I start and, if possible, try to find a recording or something to supplement (why not *just* learn from this recording? Because it likely won't be the version I've heard out somewhere which would have been why I wanted to learn the tune in the first place).
After all that, I have a *start* with the tune. But I don't know it, and wouldn't claim to, until it's been out and about with me for a year or so at least, and I've had a chance to hear what various 'real' (as opposed to recorded - odd concept, but I hope you get my drift!) people do with it.
The rest of the time, I just wait until I pick up the tune(s) from session playing.
It would be extremely inadvisable for a beginner to learn tunes from sheet music. It's one thing for a fiddler to learn the names of all the notes in first position, and quite another for the same player to recognise the sound of these notes (even relative to a known note). The second is ultimately more useful to the musician. It's the age old point, but when you listen to the .midi file, you are listening to exactly what the notation tells you to do. But, to my ears at least, it isn't musical. Could you learn a tune aurally from that?
The point of interpretation is very true. A few months back, a group I play with was trawling tunebooks for new material, and we found a tune we particularly liked (an American-Irish reel), and proceeded to learn them from the dots with no aural reference. In this case, the musicians in question had sufficient experience to be able to be able to play it in their own style. However, when I eventually tracked down a recording of it, the tune played by us sounded very unlike the tune played by someone else - we were playing it as a sort of English-Northumbrian reel.
First paragraph: there is universal agreement on reading the "dots" not being suitable for learning this music.... weather you turn out to be right or wrong; the fact that one or more people here have disagreed, then your opinion is certainly not universal.... and why would you be thankful for the celebration of one less means of transmission of this tradition?
i've already talked about the start of the second paragraph when i spoke of communication versus performance practice... and i'd agree with greg the tuners bit on not playing beethoven like bach... same with learning a jazz solo from sheet music, you know it's supposed to be swung; even if it's all quavers! this debate is applicable to all areas of music...
although it has been said that llig explained his point very well with his now re-posted post, i don't really think so... the detail llig talks about this issue with is something we should all learn from.. for example when he talks of recordings of tunes as possessing only a particular mood, whilst being played 3 times on a certain day i think well then we should be starting a discussion, led by llig in talking us through what this means with explanations on what musical devices and features give rise to different moods in music.. slow/minor=sad etc... that's a basic level, perhaps he'd expand?
for your third paragraph, if understanding a tune takes many many years, (and perhaps it does) then perhaps you could be so kind to pick a tune you have been playing for years and help us here by writing an essay on what you learned about a particular tune over the years.... i.e what you knew about it at the 15 year mark that you didn't after 5 years.. perhaps how your view on what the pure version is, to new variations you used on it, how your opinion on ornamentating the tune has developed; what ornaments you've found more suitable as time passed, maybe you've found the perfect tempo for the tune...or do you like to use a crescendo with an ascending passage or against it? how has your bowing of the tune changed? articulation? should we learn one tune in all 12 keys to get a sense of all its possible colors? do you do that?
you see, here i am wondering weather llig is a truly great musician who understands what he's doing or another sooped up romanticist blathering away and not having any apparent thought process behind what would then be meaningless statements...
it's not about having to prove yourself in front of us llig but why deny us the chance to learn from your apparent wealth of experience and only tempt us with remote smells of the fantastic tales of your knowledge?!! you'll have my sincerest apologies for knocking you if you do end up giving us the ulysses report on a tune..
oh and if anyone feels like answering the above question, then i'm sure it would be very well appreciated by the bored! (pun intended)
I'd also like to offer my thanks to Greg and Martin for their sensible and reasoned opininions which seem to me to be a more balanced view on this subject than we've read before.
It boils down to the fact that notated music (for whatever genre) is simply an aid to be used in conjunction with all the other requirements of listening, experience etc etc.
Those who rail against the written form of musical language might as well rail against the written form of any language.
Without being able to read or write they wouldn't be able to cotribute to this discussion.........Hmm....
Llig I notice in order to answer this question again you pasted your points from a previous thread again. In doing this you contradicted yourself
You first offer the generalised rant
"anyone who thinks they can learn a tune from the dots is tragically deluded"
Then after my post you say
"If you can already play, then by all means use the dots"
Then you chose to repost your original comments.......
Please clarify which opinion you agree with.
I think it's only fair I respond in a similar copy and paste manner until you actually answer the question properly. If sheet-music shouldn't be used by beginners, how do you respond to this?
"Do you know that Padraic O'Keeffe used to make a point of notating everything for his students, particularly the beginners, he'd notate the tunes in his own system and include bowing and so on. Why did he do this shocking act of betrayal to the 'tradition' you may ask? Well so the young kids could easily go back over the music he taught them and learn it correctly.
Julia Clifford and Denis Murphy were students of his......and they didn't turn out too badly now did they?!"
So can we now perhaps refine your beliefs on the use of sheet-music to the following points
1. It is wrong to learn the music purely from sheet-music
2. Sheet-music is a valuable reference resource for the student provided they are mainly learning by ear.
3. Once a musician reaches a certain standard then there is nothing wrong with learning some tunes from the dots, presuming they don't come to rely on this form of learning.
I am asking these questions of Llig in order to clarify his position on the matter that seems to annoy him the most (along with bodhráns!)
Despite his many comments on the matter I don't feel he has made his point clearly and soundly.
I'm sorry if this comes across as a bit of a victimisation of Llig but he should be well able for it considering the amount of abuse he has given other people on this site. I often see Llig making a lot of sense but unfortunately he often words his posts in such a hostile way that people just won't take him seriously.
So Llig do you agree with the 3 points I've made above? If so then perhaps you can stop hurling abuse at anyone who mentions the idea of learning a tune from the dots.
Since we’re all playing “Let’s pretend like we know what Llig is saying” I’m going to join in. Looks like fun!
If you know what the tune sounds like already, then by all means, read it off the dots. For the love of, if you have a teacher, even if it's me, it doesn't have to be some big name, play the tune for you correctly so you can hear the diddly bits done properly, then you will be able to translate those dots into what the heck the tune should sound like.
So yes, if you go to a session and hear the tune all the time and go "Damn, why the heck haven't I learned that yet?" and go and learn it from the dots, it sounds GREAT because...
...you've heard it a million times at session, OR, you've heard your teacher play it correctly 47 times, OR you've listened to Kevin Burke and Jackie Daly play it so many times that your favorite Patrick Street CD no longer works because of the scratches on it, etc.
But if you are just learning Irish music and do not understand lift, rhythm, etc. yet, then reading from the dots without knowing the tune is a recipe for disaster. I'd made mockeries of tunes simply reading dots blind because I'd never heard the tune before. Don’t do it.
That's it, I think, IMHO, and what does it come down to in the end, dots or no dots?
Know the tune. Have you been listening to the concertina player play it for months now at your session? Has your teacher played it over and over for you so you can understand it? Then the dots will do you wonders, but what's the kicker? Know the tune. You can't learn a tune you don't know or haven't heard repeatedly in your ear hole.
"Those who rail against the written form of musical language might as well rail against the written form of any language."
Interesting analogy. Let me see: could you learn a natural language from its written form only? Well, sort of, but you would have to guess at the pronunciation, so when you then tried to talk to a native speaker, all your knowledge of the grammar, syntax and vocabulary would amount to nought: you would just be talking a bunch of garbage.
If you listened to native speakers as you tried to learn the language, you stand a much better chance of getting your head around it properly.
If, however, you learnt the basics aurally, got a feel for the way the language sounded and then worked on how that was represented in the written form (and this is basically how most people learn a language), then the written form can be very useful indeed. But start with written language? Bonkers!
Now, how does that compare with learning a musical style from written notation?
American funk pioneers Parliament/Funkadelic had a song called "Good To Your Ear Hole" that always made me chuckle. I think that's where that vaguely suggestive notion of music going 'into' an ear hole comes from.
I refuse to believe that ANYONE here could tell which tunes a person in a session learned by ear alone or by using notation, just by listening to them play.
And there it is. IT DOESN'T feckING MATTER HOW YOU LEARNED THE TUNES...
what matters is that you appreciate them, and play them properly.
If the only way I could learn tunes was to suck the puss out of a rabit pigs arse boil, then I would because thats all that matters is that I know the tunes. I dont care how I learned them.
From what I can see, it doesn't really matter how someone learns a tune, once they understand the style it should be played in. Someone with a good understanding of and feel for Irish jigs, say, would be able to learn new ones however they liked (though I'm not sure about the thing with the pig). If, however, all you saw was 6:8 and didn't know how jigs should feel, you're going to sound like crud.
There is no contradiction. Anyone who thinks they can "learn" a tune from the dots is tragically deluded, though if you can already play, then by all means "use" the dots.
The Padraic O'Keeffe thing is interesting in that he used his own notation system. He's writing a little reminder of what he's been teaching. However, I think I stressed earlier about the dangers especially if you can already read music and you are coming to this from another discipline. Such a person will be reading the dots and by virtue of their previous knowledge, be getting a very wrong idea of what the music is.
Anyway, 1 2 3
1. It is wrong to learn the music purely from sheet-music.
I don't think "wrong" is the right word. Try impossible
2. Sheet-music is a valuable reference resource for the student provided they are mainly learning by ear.
"is a" is a bit to harsh. I'd say "can be". If you have a good ear then it can be valuable. But if you struggle to learn by ear and use the dots as a short cut, your short term gains will be outweighed by the long term damage you will be doing to your ability to learn to hear. As I said above. the information that is in the dots is the easy bit. If you can't get that by ear, how are you gonna get all the stuff that's not in the dots.
3. Once a musician reaches a certain standard then there is nothing wrong with learning some tunes from the dots, presuming they don't come to rely on this form of learning.
I wouldn't really say this was true. Though a really good player can "make" a tune out of the dots, by adding to them their knowledge and experience. Also, it's hard to define what's meant by "certain standard". Is it something you define yourself? I dunno.
I think that that is an admirable response to questions 1,2 and 3 posed above by frisbee. I am in full and wholehearted agreement and don't really see how anyone could be otherwise. Could they?
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........ martin posts a comment!
llig, could i be so bold as to trouble you for a reply to some or all of the questions in my last post? i think that for once, it'd be nice to have a discussion with some depth and show of musical understanding... not just musical philosophy..
Point of observation - there was a beginner "slow session" that started up in our town a few years ago in which the participants were all learning tunes together out of a big book. Eventually, some began to also learn by ear (from recordings, other players, etc.) while some continued to learn only from the book. Four years later, those that also began to learn by ear with the dots only as a back-up resource now have hundreds of tunes under their belts and play at the faster sessions around town. However, those that continue to learn ONLY from sheet music are still plodding along with their hand-full of tunes at the slow session.
Seeing as you responded to my analogy and concluded with '....start with written language. Bonkers!', may I urge you read my post again in which I offered the idea that all written representations of oral and aural communication are an aid to understanding not a replacement for the meaning of the sound.
As far as I understand nobody is arguing the case for starting with written notation at the expense of listening to the actual sounds in context.
Seems clear enough to me anyway!
SWFL - My little brother once got to play sax behind George Clinton a few years ago at a corporate gig (he still tours by the way) He sent a set list to the horn players, but gave no indication as to when each tune was changing into another during the show. (Since you obviously know Paliament's music, you know how easy that could be) However, since my brother is also used to playing in Irish sessions, he knew whenever George turned to the band and said something like "hup" or "hey" it was time to change. (Who says lessons learned in ITM don't transfer to other genres?)
I have a video of them from the 2005 Montreaux festival, I believe? George even has a fiddler on stage with him among the 20-30 musicians he normally has, good man that George!
Whle you nitpicked about my phrasing a bit you basically agree with me on points 1 & 2.
Regarding point 2 your bit about using dots as a short-cut is made redundant by the end of my sentence "provided they are mainly learning by ear" if a student is mainly learning by ear then they will not take the short-cuts you are referring to, if they did they would not be mainly learning by ear anymore.
You then disagree with point 3
"I wouldn't really say this was true"
but then agree with it
"though a really good player can "make" a tune out of the dots"
then you nitpick over what a 'certain standard' means.
I meant that by a player reaching a certain standard they are a really good player who have enough knowledge and experience to see a tune in a book and 'learn' it from the dots and then play it is well as anyone could who learnt it by ear. If you disagree with this then you are very much deluded, because it is a fact that many of the best players have learnt at least some of their repertoire this way. Refer to CD notes and see how many times you'll come across top class players mentioning "I got this tune from O'Neill's" and so on.
I don't think anyone is claiming that the dots contain all the information you need to be able to play it and of course a musician who has never heard the music couldn't hope to play it properly just by reading it but once a musician has figured out how to play the music (that's the hardest part) then they can take any tune from a book. memorise it and by adding their own learned sense of rhythm, ornamentation, pitch and so on turn it into perfectly good music.
This being the case Llig I hope I never see you generalising about the evils of sheet-music again. By all means point some newcomers in the right direction if they ask about learning the music from the dots but please refrain from your tired old arguments against sheet-music as whole.
You have clearly demonstrated here by answering my queries that you are not 100% against the use of sheet-music, in fact you are almost admitting to the benefits of it for the advanced player and also by acknowledging Padraic O'Keeffe's use of it as a teaching tool you are agreeing that sheet-music can be useful for a student provided they are well guided by a teacher towards learning by ear.
So since you are obviously not 100% against sheet-music (you even admit to being able to read) then perhaps you should consider that next time you are about to berate someone who admits to sometimes using sheet-music to help them learn tunes.
Gran: fair point and I apologise if I misrepresented your position. I was using your analogy to try to find a way to discuss how a written notation is useless without an understanding of the style of music being notated. I guess I was just doing some rhetorical burbling there and maybe getting a bit carried away.
For the record I have learned (the basics of) quite a few tunes from dots and don't think I really know the style well enough to do them justice yet. But with listening to and playing along with folks at sessions I am slowly improving, I think.
Finally Llig, and this is really my last contribution to this topic. I honestly do think you make a lot of sense at times. You say some things a lot of people don't like to hear but often you hit the mark, unfortunately the antagonising way you often put it across means not many people will take you seriously.
Do you care if people listen to you? Do you want people to learn anything from your remarks? If you do then try being a little less antagonising and perhaps try and explain your point of view more clearly as you have done here rather than making random generalised antagonising remarks as you do most of the time.
Ok, peace, love, righteousness and all that hippy sh*te!
I for one would be disapointed if Llig suddenly became "Politically Correct" in his comments - some of the best threads on this board have been started by one of his curmudgeonly comments.
>>> then perhaps you could be so kind to pick a tune you have been playing for years and help us here by writing an essay on what you learned about a particular tune over the years...
Respectfully, Martin, that is a load of carp (yeah, the fish)
Understanding a tune to a good depth after playing it for years is not something that you could just write a little essay about very easily, IMO.
To really understand a tune, not only does that include playing it with the proper rhythm, swing, lift, drive, etc. It also includes some rather nebulous things, like understanding the shape of the tune, and the "message", if you will. And then being so familiar with that message that you can express it in different ways. I would think that trying to break that down for a specific tune and write about it would be near impossible and a complete waste of time, because you still wouldn't be able to get across all the nuances of how your relationship with the tune has progressed over the years.
FWIW, I personally think that Michael has pegged it here. Sheet music can be a very useful tool, but it is much more useful to someone who has a firm grasp of what it *should* sound like after years of playing.
As I mentioned recently in another thread, there is a difference between people who grew up around the music, and those of us that didn't come to it until adulthood. A fairly common occurrence in the US is for people to come at this music from a completely different direction, without having any perspective on what makes it sound Irish. If those people are "paper trained", as opposed to learning the music by ear from someone who plays it well, they are at a HUGE disadvantage in the long run. They may eventually get there, but it's not likely.
So the effect of that is that there are often numerous players who have played "Irish music" for years, and still don't have a clue that they're not playing it well. You get whole sessions that play the music poorly, because they have no perspective, other than the other people that they play with that play poorly.
I think a point that keeps getting missed is that you can't learn ANY form of music, ITM or otherwise, from written music. It is virtually impossible to play a form of music you have never heard from written music properly. Absolutely no one would assert otherwise. Even with all of the markings that go into classical music, you can't get the style without having heard the music. That's a simple fact.
Once you know the style, you can play a written piece properly from written music, and it is the quickest way to learn if you possess the skill to sight read.
So can we agree there is a difference between "learning" a tune and "learning" how to play ITM?
Save your sympathy Slainte. Two guys here in this thread seem to be out for his blood, but if Llig were insulted, I have a feeling he'd make short work of them both in a verbal showdown.
Since this began as a personalised thread, possibly aimed at giving llig a (possibly) well-deserved kicking, could I say that, in the absence of any virtuoso piece of his on YouTube or elsewhere (as proposed by Martin), all we really have to go on is what he *says*- (i.e. writes), though I personally am inclined to believe that the man knows what he's talking about most of the time, despite the odd contradiction.
However, I've noticed that his spelling tends to be erratic, swinging from faultless to faultful ("My possition is straight forward...People don't reccomend tunes to me, I reccomend myself to tunes etc."). I suspect llig knows how to spell- but just doesn't think it is of primary importance- rather like, by his own admission, politeness. Maybe it reminds him too much of the tyranny of the dots.
Well, we all do it, but my further guess is that while some people can't spell, or misspell by accident, llig actually spells things wrong deliberately just to p*ss people off- all part of the pantomime villain role he enjoys playing here.
I bear him no malice (well, let's say I wouldn't go as far as to condone stoning him to death)- and a pantomime without a villain wouldn't be a pantomime, but my main gripe is that I find him unconvincing in the role. Maybe if he hammed it up a bit more like proper stage villains do, twirled his moustache, smiled villainously?
Anyway, I have detained you all too long.
Come Puss, on with the masquerade!
LOOK OUT, HE'S BEHIND YOU....
(OH, AND.... FECK OFF!- ----- I'll put that in, just to save llig the trouble writing it).
the point of this is to encourage indepth conversation and discussion about music... why is that described as a load of carp?! should (musical) ignorance really be bliss? it is supposed to make people think about what they're talking about and my invitation of writing a report would go a long way in the context of something practical (i.e. an actual tune) in the conservatory they teach us to write reports analysing pieces and why not have a lengthy discussion on cooleys reel for example?!
and as regards the above comment; frisbee (dave) is a respected composer (currently writing a concerto for a big trad name n orchestra) as well as a phd student concerning the compositional structure of irish music... you can learn more about my more humble self from myspace.com/martintourish.. but it's not as if we're banging about the bush for nothing here... promoting further thought and a deeper level of appreciation within this art form i think shouldn't be considered a load of carp... or should it?!!!!
martin.
life is so simple with a bodhran............................no tuning no sheet music .hitting the drum can be therapy and its easy to carry and we are the best a ruining sessions so be nice to us.
Martin, the "load of carp" that I was referring to was you trying to single out Michael, asking him to do something that (IMHO) is totally ridiculous to try to do, at the same time knocking him with backhanded comments.
Listen lads, it's not like Michael is off in his own little world, and people don't know him. He's one of the session leaders at a great session in Edinburgh. I have never played with him personally, but I know quite a number of folks who have. From what I understand, he is a fine player, and I look forward to a chance to have some tunes with him some day (as I do with a lot of the rest of you!)
I think Michael has been honest and succinct in voicing his opinion in this thread. Even frisbee, who started this thread, has apparently come to realize that he and Michael more or less agree on this particular topic.
I understand that Michael's communication style on this forum rubs some people the wrong way. But there are a number of people here that need to get off their high horse, and quit trying to take him to task.
We can have a civil and interesting discussion about the merits and drawbacks of sheet music without it getting personal, can't we?
If not, then I would suggest that maybe Jeremy's Prime Directive is being violated.
Well said Saint, those of us who never got to the conservatory but were content to have a few tunes learned "by ear" in the kitchen are befuddled by all this analysis. It's getting more like Sky Sports around here by the minute, lots of analysis, lots and lots.
The original question was answered by Mr. Gill, but it obviously didnt completely satisfy the blood lust. Challenging someone to play a tune or write an essay sounds very like schoolhouse stuff to me, and I congratulate Llig on his cool and patient replies.
Citing someone's successes as a badge of honour here is probably as embarrassing to the recipient as it is childish to the reader. Are we all to line up our medals in front of the keyboard so we know we have the qualifications to speak? I for one am happy to play a few tunes without getting within an asses roar of "art"......................
I wasn't going to add anymore to this discussion but I have to just say I am a bit embarassed about what Martin said about me. I'd never talk about myself like that on a discussion like this. I know many musicians who have absolutely no formal training who are far better players of ITM than me and I've learnt loads from musicians like that.
I also agree that too much analysis can get a bit much at times but if you don't consider ITM an art-form backer then what is it? Music is generally considered one of the arts, why should ITM be treated any differently?
Finally I think it's funny that some of you have come out defending Llig and calling this a blood lust. Llig is one of the most outspoken and vocal critics on this board. What's wrong with challenging his viewpoint and manner?
As I said I think Llig makes a lot of sense sometimes but his ranting can cloud his clarity.
Debate is good for the music, ranting is not. Thankfully Llig has mostly refrained from ranting on this thread and as a result his views have come out quite clearly and they make sense.
Now that's definitely the last I'll say on the matter.
Mr Llig is entirely correct, from someone who doesn't know one note of music.
A while back I criticised someone for looking for dots to a song, to play on the mandolin. I pointed out it would be more beneficial to learn it by ear. I said that even I could do that. I still believe that to be true.
No harm in using dots once you have mastered an instrument, but if you totally rely on them, well you will run into difficulties. A bit like trying to speak a foreign language using a phrase book.
K.... Firstly, i don't think that to ask anyone to talk about what elements of a piece do they consider not properly communicated by sheet music is ridiculous.. i think it's healthy, and i did open that invite for everyone; not just Michael.. so therefore, i don't think that was totally personal although there was certainly an element of it as he was the fellow in the subject header...
also, i have been playing music long before i went to the conservatory and nearly always have learned by ear, although do so by sheet music also.. but all analysis is, is to listen to a tune in depth and comment on its features as a way of understanding it better... anyone can do that i think.... to know a tune is a reel is to have analysed it.... don't get scared of the term... only a word for something much simpler...
also, i don't think that stating frisbee's musical authority (i.e. that he spends alot of time thinking about trad music etc..)should serve as an embarrassment... what about the harry b is great post?! it seemed that dave wasn't been taken too seriously and i thought it ridiculous that someone with as much thought put into the subject as he shouldn't be listened to.. it's mearly highlighting that there's someone who does know what they're talking about...
finally, this to me, is nothing more than a debate; and a good one! i think it's a very healthy thing to be passionate about music, challenge ideals, and be challenged. so no offense intended on anyone; even llig god bless him!
it's made me give more thought into sheet music: the weaknesses and strengths of it... and i feel what would go a long way in the value of sheet music being extended, is perhaps the publication of a performance practice book on this style... that's why i'd still like to hear your opinions on the points of the style which can't be communicated through the medium... some books for instance do give details on ornamentation which to me is the defining factor in what makes the music sound irish... your opinions on that would be appreciated n i'll try go easier on llig!
A couple of things Martin.
"to know a tune is a reel is to have analysed it." I don't agree.. That's like saying you've analysed a novel once you've found out how many pages it has..
Books and sheet music are not the way to learn ITM. They are handy as reference and so on, but you don't learn a thing about irish music from a tune book and a "performance practice book". Its like learning in isolation.. ITM is not just the tunes, its the people, the fun, the learning, which you can't get through a book.
I learned to play ITM by watching, listening, playing and playing and playing.. not through a book. I believe anyone who thinks they can learn ITM from a book is, as Michael said, deluding themselves.
Come to think of it, I have not learned a single tune by the notes, though I can read music just fine. All the better for it.
ok... it's IS far from a full analysis but analysis is about breaking somethin down into smaller managable parts so that when you put those parts together again, you understand it better... so one could go farther to say, it's a reel, in a major, mostly quavers... i know one could go much further than that!!!
i'd agree also with that sheet music is not the way to learn from scratch how to play trad... i didn't learn entirely in that way.. although i was often given sheet music to learn at home and it did work although it wouldn't have had i never been exposed to the style through gigs and recordings etc...
i just wonder as to how much more helpful it would be if the performance issues were to be outlined in a book.. it'd be less of a mystery to people not living in ireland then... what's if the accordionist llig leahcim had mentioned in the "one mans meat..." conversation had read it? there are loads of people in his shoes... it would have made the people, fun, and consequently learning from people aspect a whole lot more probable...
i'm not about to write any book on performance practice but the concept of it certainly interests me...
Michael's last post above this one explains his position lucidly (for once) and I agree with it completely. I am currently working with a chap who has not been playing this music for very long and his reliance on the dots is leading to rigidity. He needs to listen to a lot more ITM to get it under his skin before doing any more dot-learning.
I was always taught to read from sheet music, never taught by ear. Then one day I suddenly was and regret never doing it before. They notes on the paper just give you a basic idea of the tune but you can interpret it your own way. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't use the music. For some tunes I just find it easier. I guess i sort of agree with Llig.
I see- a book for those whom lessons, sessions and the like are out of reach? It might be of some use, but i dare say not as much use as taking a trip every month or two for a workshop or lesson. Valid point.
I wonder what you mean by performance though! Heheheh.
The problem I see is that one version of a tune in sheet music is that and that only. If one takes a genuinely traditonal tune (i.e. one that's been around so long it's cited as "trad." in the Gow collections - for example), the number of variations on the tune depending on when and where a tune is/was being played is endless. Take, for example, the Mason's Apron. Thanks to the wonders of an iTunes library & a few tunebooks, I can access at least 6 versions of the tune (not variations upon, but actually versions of). Which one is the correct one? Is there even a "correct" version? Is the one in the most popular tunebook the best? If only one shall survive, which one should it be?
When there is no definitive version of a tune laid down, the dissemination of one version of a tune in sheet music may result in other variations getting brushed aside in favour of "the one true way". Definately something to be aware of.
It's on these grounds that I grow uneasy at the reference to someone's "musical authority". No matter how experienced a player is, thoses that ultimately become the best are those that accept that these are only opinions we hold and that we make our own truth. Indeed, whenever I see something like that, I'm always tempted to challenge theopinions, even at the detriment of my own, of the "authority".
Now, who was it who said something about "art".....
well i suppose i'm the last person to be a believer in one true version of a tune... i don't think i ever play the same tune the same way twice... i get bored way too easily so i'd have had it with trad music if i stuck to one true version....
it's just that i'm trying to learn gypsy swing at the min and i've this book by Matt Glaser and Stephane Grappelli and it's brilliant because it gives essays on grappellis style, his bowing, left hand, improvisational style, musical language, and then a table of his motifs... then it tells you how to approach the reading of the sheet music.. with what sort of ornaments to use and it's pretty effective... it gives you about 14 tunes, and many times there'll be 5 different takes on the same piece.. and also site which recordings the transcriptions are taken off..
but i can tell you i'm finding it a great help because to my untrained gypsy swing ears, i can hardly catch any of the notes that stephane plays... and i've been told non trad heads have the same probs which i can understand when one is not used to a style... so i do wonder if having a similar book from a trad (dare i say) authority like maybe martin hayes would be as good as it is on the jazz side.... maybe that's a little better explained hopefully!
and i know the first thing that's going to be said is "it don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing!" don't worry, that aspect is well drilled in, in the book!!! and for those of you who are new to this, i'm not advocating this as a complete alternative to listening!! but i just wonder how much more helpful it would be......
But I will say that the next time someone posts a discussion saying they have such and such a recording and does does anyone have the dots so the can learn it. They will get the same treatment they always get.
(And by the way, my spelling is consistently dreadful, though getting better. I'm learning. So dreadful in fact, that I habitually need the spell check. It's just that sometimes I forget. That's why the spelling looks OK most of the time, but dreadful sometimes)
Actually, I'd never thought about it before, but maybe there is a correlation? I mean about spelling correctly and playing tunes rigidly. I've never been able to spell, though I do try. My brain just doesn't seem to hold the exact repetition of the letters. My grammar, punctuation and vocabulary are OK, I think. Just checking this, there were seven wrong spellings
if you use firefox there's a spellcheck extension you can get that checks your spelling as you type (as in word). It puts red lines under misspellings - I've got two already (see if you can guess which words they are ).
There was a piece of graffiti on a bridge that was near my school, which read "Homes for the homelless." [sic] Eventually a few schoolfriends and I, after a some drinks one evening, added "Literacy for the illliterate [sic]" Shortly after the city council, evidently appalled at the poor spelling of one group of resident graffiti artists and the idea of another group being pathologically determined to prove they knew how to spell "illiterate" correctly, saw fit to remove both slogans.
Since then, realising the waste of valuable public resources that these youthful hijinx inflicted upon York City Council, I rescinded my role as "Colonel Correction"
I have not read the comments above. I do not agree with Mr. Gill's intolerance of sheet music. Up until yesterday I thought him arrogant & unwilling to admit that it is so.
Having said that, I have read some excellent commentary from Michael. I may not always agree with his opinion . . . but I have a new found respect for his clarity. Now I will read each & every comment above.
I missed this thread when it started - thankfully. Surprised it hasn't been deleted, addressing a particular member in the title. Very bad form, I say. I know what the reply will be - Oh, I was only being ironic, you're sad if you can't take a joke.... all that pathetic half hearted sh!te.
I've never met michael, but know and trust a few people who have, and they say he is a sound man, but doesn't like all the tosspot drama queen nonsense that goes on on here; and if that IS the case, I'm with him on that one.
Interesting discussion.
I suggest that it is a very valuable skill to be able to pick up tunes by ear. That reliance upon sheet music can be a disadvantage.
It is also a valuable skill to be able to read music. Not being able to read can be a disadvantage..
Key, you might try reading some of the thread. Mr. Gill is not as offended as you are. Chauncey, that is a very sweeping indictment. There must be at least one bit of wisdom above. Maybe you should try reading the whole thing again.
This response alone is not from some one,"loving their own voice . . ." http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15097/comments#comment312113
If anything it is humble. Chauncey, you should read your interjections. They are not engaging ~ done it myself of course ~ they are in fact sad. So what would Chaun . . .
O.K. KML I'll go Cheers!
So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
a tune is recommended to him to learn but he doesn't have a recording of the tune available or anyone to learn it aurally from, in fact the only easily obtainable resource is a music book like O'Neill's?
I'm sure I'm not the first to notice that Llig doesn't approve of ye olde sheet music but I really think he's like an ostrich with his head in the sand on this one.
Firstly I agree it's far far far better to learn the music by ear, but I am also convinced that once a musician has gained a good enough understanding of the music then there is no reason why they can't learn a tune from sheet music and play it just as well as Llig or anyone else can when learnt by ear. Many of the greatest players have learnt at least some of their repertoire from sheet-music.
Learning how to read and write music doesn't handicap you, it actually opens up a whole new world to you. I used to be wary of sheet-music, I was convinced sheet-music and music theory were the work of the devil, but that was when I was 13! I grew up then.....seems like Llig never got over his teenage angst.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
My possition is straight forward:
I think it's a bad idea for anyone beginning to learn this music to use any form of written notation. And I would actively discourage them from doing so. Especially if they can already read music and play something other than this music.
If you can already play, then by all means use the dots.
People don't reccomend tunes to me, I reccomend myself to tunes.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by ...
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
ha! looking forward to the drama here!!!!
next we're going to be asking how many llig leahcims does it take to change a light bulb!
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
and with this serious cockness, i really think you owe it to us llig to give us a recording of you! if you have nothing to prove to us, then let us learn from your mastery!!
martin.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Not just to say "it's all been discussed before," but to be helpful ... If you go here:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13426/
Michael puts a lot of work into explaining his position. I don't (and didn't) necessarily agree with everything he said, but he and others made a lot of good points that are worth considering.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by grego
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
You know Llig, I almost agree with you believe it or not. I thought you were 100% against anyone of any level learning tunes from sheet-music. You come across on this site as a complete sheet-music basher, so hopefully my post and your response has helped clear up this little bit of confusion.
I understand the no-sheet music for beginners point and almost agree with it but there is one historical example that makes me think again.
Do you know that Padraic O'Keeffe used to make a point of notating everything for his students, particularly the beginners, he'd notate the tunes in his own system and include bowing and so on. Why did he do this shocking act of betrayal to the 'tradition' you may ask? Well so the young kids could easily go back over the music he taught them and learn it correctly.
Julia Clifford and Denis Murphy were students of his......and they didn't turn out too badly now did they?!
Finally maybe people don't recommend tunes to you cos they're afraid you'll eat their head off for suggesting you try anything.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
k, i read lligs first post anyhow and it's fine on a basic level but what is staff notation? to me its a means of communication of yes, often, the skeleton of a tune. but the issue i think llig has is with the issue of performance practice and perhaps that's what we should be discussing... perhaps to compile a list of the issues of performance practice in irish traditional music (which yeah, can't be communicated through dots) and use it as a reference point and referral for beginner musicians of this style... and a list of recordings would be a big part of that i'll agree...
although, as dave (frisbee) said, for someone who is well grounded in aspects of performance practice in a traditional irish style, then the communication of the tune through staff notation should not generate a less than authentic performance of the tune....
although, as dave (frisbee) said, for someone who is well grounded in aspects of performance practice in a traditional irish style, then the communication of the tune through staff notation should not generate a less than authentic performance of the tune....
martin tourish.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
i can also authoritively say that the practice of stylistically grounded musicians learning from sheet music was common practice in east donegal between circa 1850 and 1930...
martin.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
ah but were talking about Irish music here martin not that scottish/donegal sh*te!
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
i said stylistically grounded musicians, when refering to the donegal connection, irish music wasn't even mentioned!!!
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Leo Rowsome would routinely write out the "dots" by hand for his students.
O'Neill collected tunes and had them published for a reason.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by brianc
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I can't tell whether you have'nt read Micheal's posts carefully, or if you're deliberately misrepresenting him in order to take the pi**.
Bad form.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Murph
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
If sheet music is used in conjunction with learning by ear it can be helpful in speeding the learning process. Learning by ear speeds the learning of sight reading and vice versa. I learned and have taught this way. I've never noticed a difference in getting the "heart" of the music between students who learn by ear in conjunction with sight reading and those who learn totally by ear. Learning purely by the dots is another story, however, as Irish music doesn't lend itself to sheet music particularly well. My accordion has 41 treble keys and 120 bass buttons, as opposed to the smaller squeezeboxes more popularly associated with the music, so I have to be extra careful about learning and teaching the more complex and potentially more rewarding instrument.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Stuporman
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
The real art is sounding like yourself when your reading it .
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I've been on this site for only two years now, but in that two years, the subject of notation in ITM has reared its ugly head quite often; more so than it should.
I hear things like "you should never learn ITM through the notation" and "no one can come to this by using the dots" and it's all so silly and unnecessary. Sometimes I think that the anti-dot crowd can't read music at all and is somehow apologizing for it.
Music notation tells you two things- 1) the pitch of each note, and 2) how long you hold it. Nothing else. Every classically-trained musician reading this will surely agree with me when I say that no one expects you to play Bach the way you play Beethoven; or Tschaikovsky the way you play Stravinsky. Those stylistic differences can never be captured in the notation. Once you learn the correct notes and how long to hold them, you study the individual styles; the dynamics; the interpretation; the tradition. Notation is pitch and duration. That's all.
So when it comes to ITM, what's the big debate? Don't our reels and jigs demand certain pitches? There sure are lots of posts on tuning correctly. And rhythm- isn't ITM all about rhythm?
Are you able to listen to music slowly and learn it aurally? Yes? Great! That's a wonderful way to learn. Can you read the notated pitches? Great! You still have lots to interject into the music. The notation may take you there quicker but no real musician opens up O'Neills or the Comhaltas book and expects a dry reading to be ITM any more than a dry reading of the pitches in a Bach fugue or Mozart sonata.
It would take me a lot longer to learn a tune by listening to it over and over, when at a glance I can see the pitch patterns and the rhythms. But no real musician stops at that point, since it's only the beginning of the learning process.
The end goal is to play our session tunes well. Whether we come to a tune by listening or by reading, we still have an obligation to play it correctly, within the tradition.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
So, many of old masters notated tunes for their students. But they would tell their students to bring tape or mini disc recorders to record tunes, if they were alive now. This saves much time and trouble in teaching, and gives you a much better idea of how tunes should be played.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by slainte
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I fully agree with you, Greg.
Those people who stick to the dots closely even after playing what they consider ITM for a while are in my opinion most likely those that are unable (or unwilling or prevented by some other twist of fate or character flaw) to pick up the proper style from recordings or life musicians anyways. If they were left with only recordings and no sheetmusic available, they'd probably never get started. (If that's good or bad is a different question, but music is there to give joy and pleasure, which it certainly does for those people as well.)
Those that come to the music with the right approach and attitude take out of sheetmusic, recordings, concerts, etc. whatever they can to learn and to keep learning.
Sheetmusic can be an entry point or the final destination - it all depends what the individual person makes with it.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by heike
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I totally agree with Greg, the music notation gives you the bare bones of the tune, but interpretation and style are another matter. However once a good player has learnt a tune from the dots they will add their own style, ornamentation, etc. to it. Without people like O'neill who collected and wrote down tunes in the era before recording, many good tunes would be lost forever.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by cathycook
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Firstly, you cannot learn this music from the dots. There is universal agreement here for this and for that I am truly thankful.
Secondly, anyone who thinks they can learn a tune from the dots is tragically deluded. The dots carry only a miniscule of the information that is a diddley tune. A recording is better, but still woefully inadequate. Even a very good recording by a good player is only three times through on a particular day in a particular mood. To know a tune is to have many many years of playing and listening to it, and understanding and knowing its relations.
Thirdly, this diddley music has a lot of notes in it, most of which are not represented in your average dots. Your average dots are often described as being the skeleton of the tune that the musician can then put the flesh onto. I profoundly disagree with this analogy, I think it's much more accurate to take a more holistic view where every bit of the sound is equally important and flexible. However, I think it's reasonably straight forward that this, so called, skeleton bit is the easy bit, compared to the twiddly diddley bits, not to mention the so called variations. So the killer point is, if you have trouble getting the easy bit by ear alone, you haven't a feckin cat in hell's chance of getting the rest of it.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by ...
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
"To know a tune is to have many many years of playing and listening to it, and understanding and knowing its relations"
Unless you are a bodhran player, of course. Then "once through" is usually enough.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Well said Greg. The fisrt posting of any sense since this debate began. Its about time there was a bit of common sense posted about this topic.
Well done Greg.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by session savage
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I would nt touch sheet music like all great bodhran players....................................lol
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Saint
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Yes I read music, But the irony is, the vast majority of times I use it is when people mention tunes on this website and I don't know what tune they are refering to. I do a quick seach of the name, glance at the dots and can say, Oh yeah, that one.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by ...
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
OK, an admission. I occasionally - and it is occasionally - learn tunes from dots. When I do, I always look for lots of different versions of it before I start and, if possible, try to find a recording or something to supplement (why not *just* learn from this recording? Because it likely won't be the version I've heard out somewhere which would have been why I wanted to learn the tune in the first place).
After all that, I have a *start* with the tune. But I don't know it, and wouldn't claim to, until it's been out and about with me for a year or so at least, and I've had a chance to hear what various 'real' (as opposed to recorded - odd concept, but I hope you get my drift!) people do with it.
The rest of the time, I just wait until I pick up the tune(s) from session playing.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
It would be extremely inadvisable for a beginner to learn tunes from sheet music. It's one thing for a fiddler to learn the names of all the notes in first position, and quite another for the same player to recognise the sound of these notes (even relative to a known note). The second is ultimately more useful to the musician. It's the age old point, but when you listen to the .midi file, you are listening to exactly what the notation tells you to do. But, to my ears at least, it isn't musical. Could you learn a tune aurally from that?
The point of interpretation is very true. A few months back, a group I play with was trawling tunebooks for new material, and we found a tune we particularly liked (an American-Irish reel), and proceeded to learn them from the dots with no aural reference. In this case, the musicians in question had sufficient experience to be able to be able to play it in their own style. However, when I eventually tracked down a recording of it, the tune played by us sounded very unlike the tune played by someone else - we were playing it as a sort of English-Northumbrian reel.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Andy V
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
First paragraph: there is universal agreement on reading the "dots" not being suitable for learning this music.... weather you turn out to be right or wrong; the fact that one or more people here have disagreed, then your opinion is certainly not universal.... and why would you be thankful for the celebration of one less means of transmission of this tradition?
i've already talked about the start of the second paragraph when i spoke of communication versus performance practice... and i'd agree with greg the tuners bit on not playing beethoven like bach... same with learning a jazz solo from sheet music, you know it's supposed to be swung; even if it's all quavers! this debate is applicable to all areas of music...
although it has been said that llig explained his point very well with his now re-posted post, i don't really think so... the detail llig talks about this issue with is something we should all learn from.. for example when he talks of recordings of tunes as possessing only a particular mood, whilst being played 3 times on a certain day i think well then we should be starting a discussion, led by llig in talking us through what this means with explanations on what musical devices and features give rise to different moods in music.. slow/minor=sad etc... that's a basic level, perhaps he'd expand?
for your third paragraph, if understanding a tune takes many many years, (and perhaps it does) then perhaps you could be so kind to pick a tune you have been playing for years and help us here by writing an essay on what you learned about a particular tune over the years.... i.e what you knew about it at the 15 year mark that you didn't after 5 years.. perhaps how your view on what the pure version is, to new variations you used on it, how your opinion on ornamentating the tune has developed; what ornaments you've found more suitable as time passed, maybe you've found the perfect tempo for the tune...or do you like to use a crescendo with an ascending passage or against it? how has your bowing of the tune changed? articulation? should we learn one tune in all 12 keys to get a sense of all its possible colors? do you do that?
you see, here i am wondering weather llig is a truly great musician who understands what he's doing or another sooped up romanticist blathering away and not having any apparent thought process behind what would then be meaningless statements...
it's not about having to prove yourself in front of us llig but why deny us the chance to learn from your apparent wealth of experience and only tempt us with remote smells of the fantastic tales of your knowledge?!! you'll have my sincerest apologies for knocking you if you do end up giving us the ulysses report on a tune..
oh and if anyone feels like answering the above question, then i'm sure it would be very well appreciated by the bored! (pun intended)
all the best,
martin.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I'd also like to offer my thanks to Greg and Martin for their sensible and reasoned opininions which seem to me to be a more balanced view on this subject than we've read before.
It boils down to the fact that notated music (for whatever genre) is simply an aid to be used in conjunction with all the other requirements of listening, experience etc etc.
Those who rail against the written form of musical language might as well rail against the written form of any language.
Without being able to read or write they wouldn't be able to cotribute to this discussion.........Hmm....
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Gran Cassa
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Llig I notice in order to answer this question again you pasted your points from a previous thread again. In doing this you contradicted yourself
You first offer the generalised rant
"anyone who thinks they can learn a tune from the dots is tragically deluded"
Then after my post you say
"If you can already play, then by all means use the dots"
Then you chose to repost your original comments.......
Please clarify which opinion you agree with.
I think it's only fair I respond in a similar copy and paste manner until you actually answer the question properly. If sheet-music shouldn't be used by beginners, how do you respond to this?
"Do you know that Padraic O'Keeffe used to make a point of notating everything for his students, particularly the beginners, he'd notate the tunes in his own system and include bowing and so on. Why did he do this shocking act of betrayal to the 'tradition' you may ask? Well so the young kids could easily go back over the music he taught them and learn it correctly.
Julia Clifford and Denis Murphy were students of his......and they didn't turn out too badly now did they?!"
So can we now perhaps refine your beliefs on the use of sheet-music to the following points
1. It is wrong to learn the music purely from sheet-music
2. Sheet-music is a valuable reference resource for the student provided they are mainly learning by ear.
3. Once a musician reaches a certain standard then there is nothing wrong with learning some tunes from the dots, presuming they don't come to rely on this form of learning.
I am asking these questions of Llig in order to clarify his position on the matter that seems to annoy him the most (along with bodhráns!)
Despite his many comments on the matter I don't feel he has made his point clearly and soundly.
I'm sorry if this comes across as a bit of a victimisation of Llig but he should be well able for it considering the amount of abuse he has given other people on this site. I often see Llig making a lot of sense but unfortunately he often words his posts in such a hostile way that people just won't take him seriously.
So Llig do you agree with the 3 points I've made above? If so then perhaps you can stop hurling abuse at anyone who mentions the idea of learning a tune from the dots.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Since we’re all playing “Let’s pretend like we know what Llig is saying” I’m going to join in. Looks like fun!
If you know what the tune sounds like already, then by all means, read it off the dots. For the love of, if you have a teacher, even if it's me, it doesn't have to be some big name, play the tune for you correctly so you can hear the diddly bits done properly, then you will be able to translate those dots into what the heck the tune should sound like.
So yes, if you go to a session and hear the tune all the time and go "Damn, why the heck haven't I learned that yet?" and go and learn it from the dots, it sounds GREAT because...
...you've heard it a million times at session, OR, you've heard your teacher play it correctly 47 times, OR you've listened to Kevin Burke and Jackie Daly play it so many times that your favorite Patrick Street CD no longer works because of the scratches on it, etc.
But if you are just learning Irish music and do not understand lift, rhythm, etc. yet, then reading from the dots without knowing the tune is a recipe for disaster. I'd made mockeries of tunes simply reading dots blind because I'd never heard the tune before. Don’t do it.
That's it, I think, IMHO, and what does it come down to in the end, dots or no dots?
Know the tune. Have you been listening to the concertina player play it for months now at your session? Has your teacher played it over and over for you so you can understand it? Then the dots will do you wonders, but what's the kicker? Know the tune. You can't learn a tune you don't know or haven't heard repeatedly in your ear hole.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
"Those who rail against the written form of musical language might as well rail against the written form of any language."
Interesting analogy. Let me see: could you learn a natural language from its written form only? Well, sort of, but you would have to guess at the pronunciation, so when you then tried to talk to a native speaker, all your knowledge of the grammar, syntax and vocabulary would amount to nought: you would just be talking a bunch of garbage.
If you listened to native speakers as you tried to learn the language, you stand a much better chance of getting your head around it properly.
If, however, you learnt the basics aurally, got a feel for the way the language sounded and then worked on how that was represented in the written form (and this is basically how most people learn a language), then the written form can be very useful indeed. But start with written language? Bonkers!
Now, how does that compare with learning a musical style from written notation?
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by robharper
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
ear hole
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by session savage
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Ya like that one?
American funk pioneers Parliament/Funkadelic had a song called "Good To Your Ear Hole" that always made me chuckle. I think that's where that vaguely suggestive notion of music going 'into' an ear hole comes from.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I'm sick to my stomach of this blasted debate.
I refuse to believe that ANYONE here could tell which tunes a person in a session learned by ear alone or by using notation, just by listening to them play.
And there it is. IT DOESN'T feckING MATTER HOW YOU LEARNED THE TUNES...
what matters is that you appreciate them, and play them properly.
If the only way I could learn tunes was to suck the puss out of a rabit pigs arse boil, then I would because thats all that matters is that I know the tunes. I dont care how I learned them.
COP ON.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by session savage
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Yeah SWFL, i like that one. I'm gonna be using that alot now... thanks
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by session savage
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Breathe, Savage!
From what I can see, it doesn't really matter how someone learns a tune, once they understand the style it should be played in. Someone with a good understanding of and feel for Irish jigs, say, would be able to learn new ones however they liked (though I'm not sure about the thing with the pig). If, however, all you saw was 6:8 and didn't know how jigs should feel, you're going to sound like crud.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by robharper
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
My pleasure ss. All due credit to this innovative fella:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Clinton_(funk_musician)
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Link busted, try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Clinton_(funk_musician)
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Clinton_(funk_musician)
Don't know why it keeps lopping off the close parenthesis on the end but it does. That's it, last try, I'm out. Carry on.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Deep sigh ...
There is no contradiction. Anyone who thinks they can "learn" a tune from the dots is tragically deluded, though if you can already play, then by all means "use" the dots.
The Padraic O'Keeffe thing is interesting in that he used his own notation system. He's writing a little reminder of what he's been teaching. However, I think I stressed earlier about the dangers especially if you can already read music and you are coming to this from another discipline. Such a person will be reading the dots and by virtue of their previous knowledge, be getting a very wrong idea of what the music is.
Anyway, 1 2 3
1. It is wrong to learn the music purely from sheet-music.
I don't think "wrong" is the right word. Try impossible
2. Sheet-music is a valuable reference resource for the student provided they are mainly learning by ear.
"is a" is a bit to harsh. I'd say "can be". If you have a good ear then it can be valuable. But if you struggle to learn by ear and use the dots as a short cut, your short term gains will be outweighed by the long term damage you will be doing to your ability to learn to hear. As I said above. the information that is in the dots is the easy bit. If you can't get that by ear, how are you gonna get all the stuff that's not in the dots.
3. Once a musician reaches a certain standard then there is nothing wrong with learning some tunes from the dots, presuming they don't come to rely on this form of learning.
I wouldn't really say this was true. Though a really good player can "make" a tune out of the dots, by adding to them their knowledge and experience. Also, it's hard to define what's meant by "certain standard". Is it something you define yourself? I dunno.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by ...
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Got it SWFL. Added the last ). What a cool lookin guy.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by session savage
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I think that that is an admirable response to questions 1,2 and 3 posed above by frisbee. I am in full and wholehearted agreement and don't really see how anyone could be otherwise. Could they?
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by pavlf
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........ martin posts a comment!
llig, could i be so bold as to trouble you for a reply to some or all of the questions in my last post? i think that for once, it'd be nice to have a discussion with some depth and show of musical understanding... not just musical philosophy..
many thanks,
martin.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Point of observation - there was a beginner "slow session" that started up in our town a few years ago in which the participants were all learning tunes together out of a big book. Eventually, some began to also learn by ear (from recordings, other players, etc.) while some continued to learn only from the book. Four years later, those that also began to learn by ear with the dots only as a back-up resource now have hundreds of tunes under their belts and play at the faster sessions around town. However, those that continue to learn ONLY from sheet music are still plodding along with their hand-full of tunes at the slow session.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
To robharper;
Seeing as you responded to my analogy and concluded with '....start with written language. Bonkers!', may I urge you read my post again in which I offered the idea that all written representations of oral and aural communication are an aid to understanding not a replacement for the meaning of the sound.
As far as I understand nobody is arguing the case for starting with written notation at the expense of listening to the actual sounds in context.
Seems clear enough to me anyway!
Love, Gran.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Gran Cassa
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
SWFL - My little brother once got to play sax behind George Clinton a few years ago at a corporate gig (he still tours by the way) He sent a set list to the horn players, but gave no indication as to when each tune was changing into another during the show. (Since you obviously know Paliament's music, you know how easy that could be) However, since my brother is also used to playing in Irish sessions, he knew whenever George turned to the band and said something like "hup" or "hey" it was time to change. (Who says lessons learned in ITM don't transfer to other genres?)
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
HA! Jusa Nutter that's awesome...on all counts! Wow, see? Howza 'bout that?
I have a video of them from the 2005 Montreaux festival, I believe? George even has a fiddler on stage with him among the 20-30 musicians he normally has, good man that George!
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Well Llig, you're almost there!
Whle you nitpicked about my phrasing a bit you basically agree with me on points 1 & 2.
Regarding point 2 your bit about using dots as a short-cut is made redundant by the end of my sentence "provided they are mainly learning by ear" if a student is mainly learning by ear then they will not take the short-cuts you are referring to, if they did they would not be mainly learning by ear anymore.
You then disagree with point 3
"I wouldn't really say this was true"
but then agree with it
"though a really good player can "make" a tune out of the dots"
then you nitpick over what a 'certain standard' means.
I meant that by a player reaching a certain standard they are a really good player who have enough knowledge and experience to see a tune in a book and 'learn' it from the dots and then play it is well as anyone could who learnt it by ear. If you disagree with this then you are very much deluded, because it is a fact that many of the best players have learnt at least some of their repertoire this way. Refer to CD notes and see how many times you'll come across top class players mentioning "I got this tune from O'Neill's" and so on.
I don't think anyone is claiming that the dots contain all the information you need to be able to play it and of course a musician who has never heard the music couldn't hope to play it properly just by reading it but once a musician has figured out how to play the music (that's the hardest part) then they can take any tune from a book. memorise it and by adding their own learned sense of rhythm, ornamentation, pitch and so on turn it into perfectly good music.
This being the case Llig I hope I never see you generalising about the evils of sheet-music again. By all means point some newcomers in the right direction if they ask about learning the music from the dots but please refrain from your tired old arguments against sheet-music as whole.
You have clearly demonstrated here by answering my queries that you are not 100% against the use of sheet-music, in fact you are almost admitting to the benefits of it for the advanced player and also by acknowledging Padraic O'Keeffe's use of it as a teaching tool you are agreeing that sheet-music can be useful for a student provided they are well guided by a teacher towards learning by ear.
So since you are obviously not 100% against sheet-music (you even admit to being able to read) then perhaps you should consider that next time you are about to berate someone who admits to sometimes using sheet-music to help them learn tunes.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Gran: fair point and I apologise if I misrepresented your position. I was using your analogy to try to find a way to discuss how a written notation is useless without an understanding of the style of music being notated. I guess I was just doing some rhetorical burbling there and maybe getting a bit carried away.
For the record I have learned (the basics of) quite a few tunes from dots and don't think I really know the style well enough to do them justice yet. But with listening to and playing along with folks at sessions I am slowly improving, I think.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by robharper
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Finally Llig, and this is really my last contribution to this topic. I honestly do think you make a lot of sense at times. You say some things a lot of people don't like to hear but often you hit the mark, unfortunately the antagonising way you often put it across means not many people will take you seriously.
Do you care if people listen to you? Do you want people to learn anything from your remarks? If you do then try being a little less antagonising and perhaps try and explain your point of view more clearly as you have done here rather than making random generalised antagonising remarks as you do most of the time.
Ok, peace, love, righteousness and all that hippy sh*te!
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I for one would be disapointed if Llig suddenly became "Politically Correct" in his comments - some of the best threads on this board have been started by one of his curmudgeonly comments.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
>>> then perhaps you could be so kind to pick a tune you have been playing for years and help us here by writing an essay on what you learned about a particular tune over the years...
Respectfully, Martin, that is a load of carp (yeah, the fish)
Understanding a tune to a good depth after playing it for years is not something that you could just write a little essay about very easily, IMO.
To really understand a tune, not only does that include playing it with the proper rhythm, swing, lift, drive, etc. It also includes some rather nebulous things, like understanding the shape of the tune, and the "message", if you will. And then being so familiar with that message that you can express it in different ways. I would think that trying to break that down for a specific tune and write about it would be near impossible and a complete waste of time, because you still wouldn't be able to get across all the nuances of how your relationship with the tune has progressed over the years.
FWIW, I personally think that Michael has pegged it here. Sheet music can be a very useful tool, but it is much more useful to someone who has a firm grasp of what it *should* sound like after years of playing.
As I mentioned recently in another thread, there is a difference between people who grew up around the music, and those of us that didn't come to it until adulthood. A fairly common occurrence in the US is for people to come at this music from a completely different direction, without having any perspective on what makes it sound Irish. If those people are "paper trained", as opposed to learning the music by ear from someone who plays it well, they are at a HUGE disadvantage in the long run. They may eventually get there, but it's not likely.
So the effect of that is that there are often numerous players who have played "Irish music" for years, and still don't have a clue that they're not playing it well. You get whole sessions that play the music poorly, because they have no perspective, other than the other people that they play with that play poorly.
Pete
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Reverend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I think a point that keeps getting missed is that you can't learn ANY form of music, ITM or otherwise, from written music. It is virtually impossible to play a form of music you have never heard from written music properly. Absolutely no one would assert otherwise. Even with all of the markings that go into classical music, you can't get the style without having heard the music. That's a simple fact.
Once you know the style, you can play a written piece properly from written music, and it is the quickest way to learn if you possess the skill to sight read.
So can we agree there is a difference between "learning" a tune and "learning" how to play ITM?
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Ailin
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I feel deep sympathy for Llig. I admire him for conciseness and clarity in his writing. I wonder why a couple of people don't stop nitpicking him.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by slainte
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Except for his typos. Oops, Nitpicking.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by fidkid
What would Llig Leahcim drive?
Save your sympathy Slainte. Two guys here in this thread seem to be out for his blood, but if Llig were insulted, I have a feeling he'd make short work of them both in a verbal showdown.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by cuchulain54
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Since this began as a personalised thread, possibly aimed at giving llig a (possibly) well-deserved kicking, could I say that, in the absence of any virtuoso piece of his on YouTube or elsewhere (as proposed by Martin), all we really have to go on is what he *says*- (i.e. writes), though I personally am inclined to believe that the man knows what he's talking about most of the time, despite the odd contradiction.
However, I've noticed that his spelling tends to be erratic, swinging from faultless to faultful ("My possition is straight forward...People don't reccomend tunes to me, I reccomend myself to tunes etc."). I suspect llig knows how to spell- but just doesn't think it is of primary importance- rather like, by his own admission, politeness. Maybe it reminds him too much of the tyranny of the dots.
Well, we all do it, but my further guess is that while some people can't spell, or misspell by accident, llig actually spells things wrong deliberately just to p*ss people off- all part of the pantomime villain role he enjoys playing here.
I bear him no malice (well, let's say I wouldn't go as far as to condone stoning him to death)- and a pantomime without a villain wouldn't be a pantomime, but my main gripe is that I find him unconvincing in the role. Maybe if he hammed it up a bit more like proper stage villains do, twirled his moustache, smiled villainously?
Anyway, I have detained you all too long.
Come Puss, on with the masquerade!
LOOK OUT, HE'S BEHIND YOU....
(OH, AND.... FECK OFF!- ----- I'll put that in, just to save llig the trouble writing it).
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
the point of this is to encourage indepth conversation and discussion about music... why is that described as a load of carp?! should (musical) ignorance really be bliss? it is supposed to make people think about what they're talking about and my invitation of writing a report would go a long way in the context of something practical (i.e. an actual tune) in the conservatory they teach us to write reports analysing pieces and why not have a lengthy discussion on cooleys reel for example?!
and as regards the above comment; frisbee (dave) is a respected composer (currently writing a concerto for a big trad name n orchestra) as well as a phd student concerning the compositional structure of irish music... you can learn more about my more humble self from myspace.com/martintourish.. but it's not as if we're banging about the bush for nothing here... promoting further thought and a deeper level of appreciation within this art form i think shouldn't be considered a load of carp... or should it?!!!!
martin.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
life is so simple with a bodhran............................no tuning no sheet music .hitting the drum can be therapy and its easy to carry and we are the best a ruining sessions so be nice to us.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Saint
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Martin, the "load of carp" that I was referring to was you trying to single out Michael, asking him to do something that (IMHO) is totally ridiculous to try to do, at the same time knocking him with backhanded comments.
Listen lads, it's not like Michael is off in his own little world, and people don't know him. He's one of the session leaders at a great session in Edinburgh. I have never played with him personally, but I know quite a number of folks who have. From what I understand, he is a fine player, and I look forward to a chance to have some tunes with him some day (as I do with a lot of the rest of you!)
I think Michael has been honest and succinct in voicing his opinion in this thread. Even frisbee, who started this thread, has apparently come to realize that he and Michael more or less agree on this particular topic.
I understand that Michael's communication style on this forum rubs some people the wrong way. But there are a number of people here that need to get off their high horse, and quit trying to take him to task.
We can have a civil and interesting discussion about the merits and drawbacks of sheet music without it getting personal, can't we?
If not, then I would suggest that maybe Jeremy's Prime Directive is being violated.
Pete
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Reverend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Well said Saint, those of us who never got to the conservatory but were content to have a few tunes learned "by ear" in the kitchen are befuddled by all this analysis. It's getting more like Sky Sports around here by the minute, lots of analysis, lots and lots.
The original question was answered by Mr. Gill, but it obviously didnt completely satisfy the blood lust. Challenging someone to play a tune or write an essay sounds very like schoolhouse stuff to me, and I congratulate Llig on his cool and patient replies.
Citing someone's successes as a badge of honour here is probably as embarrassing to the recipient as it is childish to the reader. Are we all to line up our medals in front of the keyboard so we know we have the qualifications to speak? I for one am happy to play a few tunes without getting within an asses roar of "art"......................
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Backer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Well said reverend, sorry for cross posting..........
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Backer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I wasn't going to add anymore to this discussion but I have to just say I am a bit embarassed about what Martin said about me. I'd never talk about myself like that on a discussion like this. I know many musicians who have absolutely no formal training who are far better players of ITM than me and I've learnt loads from musicians like that.
I also agree that too much analysis can get a bit much at times but if you don't consider ITM an art-form backer then what is it? Music is generally considered one of the arts, why should ITM be treated any differently?
Finally I think it's funny that some of you have come out defending Llig and calling this a blood lust. Llig is one of the most outspoken and vocal critics on this board. What's wrong with challenging his viewpoint and manner?
As I said I think Llig makes a lot of sense sometimes but his ranting can cloud his clarity.
Debate is good for the music, ranting is not. Thankfully Llig has mostly refrained from ranting on this thread and as a result his views have come out quite clearly and they make sense.
Now that's definitely the last I'll say on the matter.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
>>> What's wrong with challenging his viewpoint and manner?
Absolutely nothing - unless it becomes a personal attack, loaded with veiled insults. (a couple of posts in this thread came across that way to me...)
frisbee, I actually appreciated the interaction between you and Llig on this topic, and the lack of ranting on both your parts was appreciated
Pete
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Reverend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Mr Llig is entirely correct, from someone who doesn't know one note of music.
A while back I criticised someone for looking for dots to a song, to play on the mandolin. I pointed out it would be more beneficial to learn it by ear. I said that even I could do that. I still believe that to be true.
No harm in using dots once you have mastered an instrument, but if you totally rely on them, well you will run into difficulties. A bit like trying to speak a foreign language using a phrase book.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
K.... Firstly, i don't think that to ask anyone to talk about what elements of a piece do they consider not properly communicated by sheet music is ridiculous.. i think it's healthy, and i did open that invite for everyone; not just Michael.. so therefore, i don't think that was totally personal although there was certainly an element of it as he was the fellow in the subject header...
also, i have been playing music long before i went to the conservatory and nearly always have learned by ear, although do so by sheet music also.. but all analysis is, is to listen to a tune in depth and comment on its features as a way of understanding it better... anyone can do that i think.... to know a tune is a reel is to have analysed it.... don't get scared of the term... only a word for something much simpler...
also, i don't think that stating frisbee's musical authority (i.e. that he spends alot of time thinking about trad music etc..)should serve as an embarrassment... what about the harry b is great post?! it seemed that dave wasn't been taken too seriously and i thought it ridiculous that someone with as much thought put into the subject as he shouldn't be listened to.. it's mearly highlighting that there's someone who does know what they're talking about...
finally, this to me, is nothing more than a debate; and a good one! i think it's a very healthy thing to be passionate about music, challenge ideals, and be challenged. so no offense intended on anyone; even llig god bless him!
it's made me give more thought into sheet music: the weaknesses and strengths of it... and i feel what would go a long way in the value of sheet music being extended, is perhaps the publication of a performance practice book on this style... that's why i'd still like to hear your opinions on the points of the style which can't be communicated through the medium... some books for instance do give details on ornamentation which to me is the defining factor in what makes the music sound irish... your opinions on that would be appreciated n i'll try go easier on llig!
mt.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
A couple of things Martin.
"to know a tune is a reel is to have analysed it." I don't agree.. That's like saying you've analysed a novel once you've found out how many pages it has..
Books and sheet music are not the way to learn ITM. They are handy as reference and so on, but you don't learn a thing about irish music from a tune book and a "performance practice book". Its like learning in isolation.. ITM is not just the tunes, its the people, the fun, the learning, which you can't get through a book.
I learned to play ITM by watching, listening, playing and playing and playing.. not through a book. I believe anyone who thinks they can learn ITM from a book is, as Michael said, deluding themselves.
Come to think of it, I have not learned a single tune by the notes, though I can read music just fine. All the better for it.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Sean Clery
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
This is a ridiculous load of hot air to discuss a simple issue. If none of you could work this one out for yourselves you are a wunch of bankers.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by doggone
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
ok... it's IS far from a full analysis but analysis is about breaking somethin down into smaller managable parts so that when you put those parts together again, you understand it better... so one could go farther to say, it's a reel, in a major, mostly quavers... i know one could go much further than that!!!
i'd agree also with that sheet music is not the way to learn from scratch how to play trad... i didn't learn entirely in that way.. although i was often given sheet music to learn at home and it did work although it wouldn't have had i never been exposed to the style through gigs and recordings etc...
i just wonder as to how much more helpful it would be if the performance issues were to be outlined in a book.. it'd be less of a mystery to people not living in ireland then... what's if the accordionist llig leahcim had mentioned in the "one mans meat..." conversation had read it? there are loads of people in his shoes... it would have made the people, fun, and consequently learning from people aspect a whole lot more probable...
i'm not about to write any book on performance practice but the concept of it certainly interests me...
cheers for the post sean!
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Michael's last post above this one explains his position lucidly (for once) and I agree with it completely. I am currently working with a chap who has not been playing this music for very long and his reliance on the dots is leading to rigidity. He needs to listen to a lot more ITM to get it under his skin before doing any more dot-learning.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I was always taught to read from sheet music, never taught by ear. Then one day I suddenly was and regret never doing it before. They notes on the paper just give you a basic idea of the tune but you can interpret it your own way. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't use the music. For some tunes I just find it easier. I guess i sort of agree with Llig.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by creathana
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Sorry ** Can't interpret it
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by creathana
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I see- a book for those whom lessons, sessions and the like are out of reach? It might be of some use, but i dare say not as much use as taking a trip every month or two for a workshop or lesson. Valid point.
I wonder what you mean by performance though! Heheheh.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Sean Clery
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
The problem I see is that one version of a tune in sheet music is that and that only. If one takes a genuinely traditonal tune (i.e. one that's been around so long it's cited as "trad." in the Gow collections - for example), the number of variations on the tune depending on when and where a tune is/was being played is endless. Take, for example, the Mason's Apron. Thanks to the wonders of an iTunes library & a few tunebooks, I can access at least 6 versions of the tune (not variations upon, but actually versions of). Which one is the correct one? Is there even a "correct" version? Is the one in the most popular tunebook the best? If only one shall survive, which one should it be?
When there is no definitive version of a tune laid down, the dissemination of one version of a tune in sheet music may result in other variations getting brushed aside in favour of "the one true way". Definately something to be aware of.
It's on these grounds that I grow uneasy at the reference to someone's "musical authority". No matter how experienced a player is, thoses that ultimately become the best are those that accept that these are only opinions we hold and that we make our own truth. Indeed, whenever I see something like that, I'm always tempted to challenge theopinions, even at the detriment of my own, of the "authority".
Now, who was it who said something about "art".....
# Posted on September 12th 2007 by Andy V
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
... the man who put the "art" into Martin, I think.
# Posted on September 12th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
well i suppose i'm the last person to be a believer in one true version of a tune... i don't think i ever play the same tune the same way twice... i get bored way too easily so i'd have had it with trad music if i stuck to one true version....
it's just that i'm trying to learn gypsy swing at the min and i've this book by Matt Glaser and Stephane Grappelli and it's brilliant because it gives essays on grappellis style, his bowing, left hand, improvisational style, musical language, and then a table of his motifs... then it tells you how to approach the reading of the sheet music.. with what sort of ornaments to use and it's pretty effective... it gives you about 14 tunes, and many times there'll be 5 different takes on the same piece.. and also site which recordings the transcriptions are taken off..
but i can tell you i'm finding it a great help because to my untrained gypsy swing ears, i can hardly catch any of the notes that stephane plays... and i've been told non trad heads have the same probs which i can understand when one is not used to a style... so i do wonder if having a similar book from a trad (dare i say) authority like maybe martin hayes would be as good as it is on the jazz side.... maybe that's a little better explained hopefully!
and i know the first thing that's going to be said is "it don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing!" don't worry, that aspect is well drilled in, in the book!!! and for those of you who are new to this, i'm not advocating this as a complete alternative to listening!! but i just wonder how much more helpful it would be......
# Posted on September 12th 2007 by martin t
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I'm bored of this.
But I will say that the next time someone posts a discussion saying they have such and such a recording and does does anyone have the dots so the can learn it. They will get the same treatment they always get.
(And by the way, my spelling is consistently dreadful, though getting better. I'm learning. So dreadful in fact, that I habitually need the spell check. It's just that sometimes I forget. That's why the spelling looks OK most of the time, but dreadful sometimes)
# Posted on September 12th 2007 by ...
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Your spelling is so variable because you didn't learn it from the dots. Obvious. Sheesh.
# Posted on September 12th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
To be honest, at this stage, I'd swap good spelling for playing well any day. Or maybe someone could invent a 'play checker'?
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
...to avoid confusion, I'd rather play well than spell well.
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by Here Lyeth
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Actually, I'd never thought about it before, but maybe there is a correlation? I mean about spelling correctly and playing tunes rigidly. I've never been able to spell, though I do try. My brain just doesn't seem to hold the exact repetition of the letters. My grammar, punctuation and vocabulary are OK, I think. Just checking this, there were seven wrong spellings
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by ...
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
if you use firefox there's a spellcheck extension you can get that checks your spelling as you type (as in word). It puts red lines under misspellings - I've got two already (see if you can guess which words they are
).
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by pavlf
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
firefox and spellcheck
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by biggus dave
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Only because it's a bugbear of mine, Michael, but did you know that you almost always incorrectly put an apostrophe in the possessive pronoun "its"?
I'm sorry to mention it, really ...
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Yes, it's a bad habit of mine. But you shouldn't let its occurrence annoy you.
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by ...
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
There was a piece of graffiti on a bridge that was near my school, which read "Homes for the homelless." [sic] Eventually a few schoolfriends and I, after a some drinks one evening, added "Literacy for the illliterate [sic]" Shortly after the city council, evidently appalled at the poor spelling of one group of resident graffiti artists and the idea of another group being pathologically determined to prove they knew how to spell "illiterate" correctly, saw fit to remove both slogans.
Since then, realising the waste of valuable public resources that these youthful hijinx inflicted upon York City Council, I rescinded my role as "Colonel Correction"
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by Andy V
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
No, you are dead right, Michael, I shouldn't. But I hope you've noticed that I've been ever so restrained lately on the subject ...
[winning smile]
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I saw this graffito once, apparently put up by devil-worshipping interior decorators:
SATIN RULES
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by fidkid
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
"I sold my soul to Santa"
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Fidkid, a wall in Seattle once held the comment
HAIL SATIN
followed by, in a different color of paint,
RAYON IS GROOVIER
# Posted on September 13th 2007 by sara g
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Satin is Slik
you sad people!
# Posted on September 20th 2007 by doggone
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I have not read the comments above. I do not agree with Mr. Gill's intolerance of sheet music. Up until yesterday I thought him arrogant & unwilling to admit that it is so.
Having said that, I have read some excellent commentary from Michael. I may not always agree with his opinion . . . but I have a new found respect for his clarity. Now I will read each & every comment above.
# Posted on September 20th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
I missed this thread when it started - thankfully. Surprised it hasn't been deleted, addressing a particular member in the title. Very bad form, I say. I know what the reply will be - Oh, I was only being ironic, you're sad if you can't take a joke.... all that pathetic half hearted sh!te.
I've never met michael, but know and trust a few people who have, and they say he is a sound man, but doesn't like all the tosspot drama queen nonsense that goes on on here; and if that IS the case, I'm with him on that one.
# Posted on September 20th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
So what does Key Maniac Lad do when . . . oh sorry that's just me making a half-hearted joke.
# Posted on September 20th 2007 by ain't fluffed
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
you said it, not me.
# Posted on September 20th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Interesting discussion.
I suggest that it is a very valuable skill to be able to pick up tunes by ear. That reliance upon sheet music can be a disadvantage.
It is also a valuable skill to be able to read music. Not being able to read can be a disadvantage..
# Posted on September 20th 2007 by piobagusfidil
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
'Sfunny ... I *like* the tosspot drama queen nonsense ...
# Posted on September 20th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
This whole discussion is a bunch of people loving their own voices talking about nothing. SAD SAD SAD!!!
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by doggone
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
Key, you might try reading some of the thread. Mr. Gill is not as offended as you are. Chauncey, that is a very sweeping indictment. There must be at least one bit of wisdom above. Maybe you should try reading the whole thing again.
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by ain't fluffed
Re: So what does Llig Leahcim do when........
This response alone is not from some one,"loving their own voice . . ."
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15097/comments#comment312113
If anything it is humble. Chauncey, you should read your interjections. They are not engaging ~ done it myself of course ~ they are in fact sad. So what would Chaun . . .
O.K. KML I'll go Cheers!
# Posted on September 21st 2007 by ain't fluffed