Everybody tells me that you should ONLY buy tunable whistles and flutes for playing with others and for sessions.
But if you purchase a good whistle or flute that is non-tunable but in correct or concert pitch why couldn't you use that? Why should you have to buy a more expensive tunable whistle or flute? What's the big deal about tunable instruments anyway? When did Tunable whistles and flutes actually start appearing?
Well, yes it is, if the accordion is about 30 cents flat overall, you can tune a tunable flute down to that (pipes are more likely to be flat or sharp than accordions in general, and while they can sort of be tuned, it's a lot easier for a flute with a slide to push in or pull out than it is it tune the pipes. I know, I play both of them).
If the accordion (or pipes) was out of tune with itself though, that would be another matter.
But, a non-tunable flute can be played flatter if you're competent. Maybe not a whole 30 cents, I don't know, I haven't tested to see how much I can change the pitch without the slide.
But I do know it's pleasanter to tune the flute and not worry about bending the pitch up or down while you're playing.
Also, some people are just naturally sharp or flat players (on flute anyway, maybe not whistle), and if you're one of those, the tuning slide is necessary, unless you want to spend a lot of time and effort changing your embouchure.
I have a couple of cheapo whistles that were originally fixed tuning that I put in boiling water to loosen up the glue on the plastic heads so that I could move them slightly to make them tunable.
And the piper I play with actually cut open his brass low D Chieftan whistle and soldered in a slide tube to make it tunable! It actually works quite well. It was always a nice sounding whistle, but played at about 436. It's better now
A drastic measure would be to dent a metal one. I did this accidentally to a cheap whistle that was never in tune, and untuneable, and it is almost perfect now...
For a flute, the tuning usually changes a bit as you warm it up, and /or as the surroundings vary .... cold hot etc. (also your breath changes if you have a hot drink or lots of cold gassy stuff
.... and different people play (flute) differently - I play flat and need the adjustment! If you can try out a non-tunable flute for a while and stay in tune, fair enough.
I'm told by Overton that if you have a non-tunable whistle of theirs they can convert to a tuneable one. The tunable option is of course always the best as few sessions are at A=440. An out of tune session doesn't just sound bad it sounds weak as the discordant contributory elements detract from the overall sound - unlike an in-tune one where the in-tune elements reinforce each other - increasing amplitude, in simple physics terms.
About "non-tunable" flutes, that would only be a one-piece flute (such as a plastic or bamboo flute). All D wooden flutes I've ever seen have at least two sections, the headjoint and the body. That connexion gives you a bit of tuning latitude. Ideally, the flute should be a tad sharp, say, 442 or 444 with the headjoint shoved all the way in, which allows you to tune with a slightly sharp accordion etc or to get the flute up to pitch when it's cold. Then you can pull the headjoint out a bit to play in 440 when the flute is warmed up, and you can pull it out a tad more to play with people who are playing flat.
But a one-piece whistle you can't do much about. I cut an old non-tunable low G whistle which played too sharp in half and made a crude tuning slide out of a brass tube.
So, you don't necessarily need a tuning slide on a flute as long as it's a two-piece flute, but you do need some sort of tuning latitude on a whistle. Why? Because you'll encounter people who are playing flat or sharp of 440, and you'll find yourself playing in unusually cold or warm conditions.
I do the same as Reverend to make generations tunable. It works fine! No need for fancy schmancy whistles. But do remember about the temperature effect as the evening goes on and it tends to get warmer, then it'll expand and possibly go a bit flat (but hardly noticeably, really).
I have a non-tunable flute. It's at perfect pitch (or so the maker says) with the head joint all the way in, so there's no way to sharpen it. Only flatten it.
I noticed that it wasn't in tune with the others, and so did the others who would change seats so they wouldn't be next to me.
The whistle player in our group simply attaches a piece of index card with a rubber band at the bottom of his whistle. Extending about 1/4 inch or so, he says it helps keep it in tune when the whistle has warmed up. Seems to work. He always sounds great. He's the best player in our group if you ask me.
So save your money if you play the whistle and try a cheaper method first. But spend the money on a tunable flute.
It appears that a tunable whistle or flute is a must. Has this always been so? When did tunable whistle and flutes first come out? I don't remember seeing or hearing about tunable whistle and flutes until recently.
What I really notice is the different tunings between octaves. Wooden & silver flutes often have a head cork which might (carefully) need a slight adjustment. There was a flute thread where Ailin describes how; http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8587/
Some people have asked about how to designate the key using ABC.
With K:D
you will generate a tune in D major with 2 sharps in the key signature. You can also designate different modes to generate the same effect. Each of the following will give you a tune with 2 sharps;
K:D, K:D major, K:D ionian;
K:E dorian;
K:A mixolydian;
K:B minor, K:Bm, K:B aeolian
Just a quick science question to anyone who may know - is the *rate* of expansion, and consequent flattening of note - in equally warm conditions faster or slower - or the same - for a flute vis a vis a whistle?
I suppose they need to be made of the same material - so, say a metal flute, or a low whistle.
Just curious. My guess is it would be the flute or low whistle, as they have greater mass, but I don't know.
well, i would imagine the first tunable whistle came out when they started making the head separate from the body. to tune most whistles you just move the head up or down a bit on the body. if you play generations or other whistles with a plastic head you might have experienced the same as Reverend did initially, and not realize you can tune them. usually you have to boil it a bit to make the head move. i prefer tunable because you never know if you're gonna be playing w/ someone who can't tune their instrument. this was already discussed, but i figured i'd add my 2 cents
Whistles I am not so sure, but, flutes are design to be played in tune at one pitch level ie a=440 not a=445. So theoretically, when played at the proper temperature these flutes will be in perfect tune with 440 if played by an accomplished musician. Therefore if played in an environment with less than optimal temperature or tuned to play with an accordian say at 445 or 396 or 441 the flute will be less than perfectly in tune. The reason that flutes are built with slides is because of temperature irregularities, but they still won't play in tune at an outdoor football game (not soccer) in Wisconsin in December. Nor will they be in tune if you have to tune to an accordian that is 30 cents off. The flute world is less perfect than other musical worlds that is why we are more perfect than others that foster the illusion of perfect self intonation.
That is the unvarnished truth... So yes the slide is theoretically unnecessary!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Play bamboo, I do.
That's an interesting question Maniac raises. From practical experience, thin-walled metal flutes and whistles get cold very quickly but can be warmed back up very quickly- usually blowing warm air into them for less than a minute is enough to get them back up to pitch. Wood flutes and whistles take a lot longer to get cold but cannot be warmed up quickly. Many's the time I've had to leave off playing flute (wooden) at a cold outdoor gig and switch to whistle (thin metal tubing) because the flute was unusably flat. Or, I've taken the flute apart and put it in an inside pocket to keep it warm when not in use.
I've never actually taken an electronic tuner reading of a cold very flat flute or whistle, but they get far too flat to use in an ensemble.
A cold metal flute will play at a lower pitch than a warmed (or hot) one. You are correct regarding the shrinking & swelling of metal with temperature. However, it is the air (which is likewise heated) passing through the flute which raises pitch. Air becomes less dense with a rise in temp. In summer I run cold water over my metal whistles to stabilize the tuning.
Waymer, the metal or wood does shrink when cold, which makes the pitch go down. That effect is called "acoustic impedence". Anything that impedes the air column makes the pitch go down. You can see this effect for yourself by blowing on a whistle, then gradually closing your hand around the top of the whistle. As the impedence increases the pitch goes down.
In a wind instrument, for a given length of tubing, the narrower the bore the flatter the pitch and visa versa.
A clear example of this is the fact that the Scottish Highland pipe's "practice chanter" plays a full octave lower than the actual Highland bagpipe's chanter, though it is slightly shorter. The practice chanter has a very narrow bore which greatly flattens the pitch, while the actual pipe chanter has a large bore.
Then why, you ask, does a low D whistle have a bigger bore than a high D whistle? That's because in any whistle or flute there's an ideal ratio of bore diameter to bore length. If the bore is too small (for a given length) the low notes will be very quiet or may not sound at all. If the bore is too big the high notes will be difficult to play. There's a compromise bore diameter which gives acceptably full-sounding low notes and acceptably easy-to-play high notes.
Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Everybody tells me that you should ONLY buy tunable whistles and flutes for playing with others and for sessions.
But if you purchase a good whistle or flute that is non-tunable but in correct or concert pitch why couldn't you use that? Why should you have to buy a more expensive tunable whistle or flute? What's the big deal about tunable instruments anyway? When did Tunable whistles and flutes actually start appearing?
Thanks.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by gerard1973
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
its like playing an accordion .. how the hell are yuo supposed to tune that? well, you dont, you just hope others are ready to tune up or down
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by vboyd100
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
A tunable whistle or flute is still not going to be in tune with an accordion or any other instrument that is OUT of tune.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by gerard1973
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Well, yes it is, if the accordion is about 30 cents flat overall, you can tune a tunable flute down to that (pipes are more likely to be flat or sharp than accordions in general, and while they can sort of be tuned, it's a lot easier for a flute with a slide to push in or pull out than it is it tune the pipes. I know, I play both of them).
If the accordion (or pipes) was out of tune with itself though, that would be another matter.
But, a non-tunable flute can be played flatter if you're competent. Maybe not a whole 30 cents, I don't know, I haven't tested to see how much I can change the pitch without the slide.
But I do know it's pleasanter to tune the flute and not worry about bending the pitch up or down while you're playing.
Also, some people are just naturally sharp or flat players (on flute anyway, maybe not whistle), and if you're one of those, the tuning slide is necessary, unless you want to spend a lot of time and effort changing your embouchure.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by seisflutes
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
I have a couple of cheapo whistles that were originally fixed tuning that I put in boiling water to loosen up the glue on the plastic heads so that I could move them slightly to make them tunable.
And the piper I play with actually cut open his brass low D Chieftan whistle and soldered in a slide tube to make it tunable! It actually works quite well. It was always a nice sounding whistle, but played at about 436. It's better now
Pete
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
A drastic measure would be to dent a metal one. I did this accidentally to a cheap whistle that was never in tune, and untuneable, and it is almost perfect now...
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Djaque
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
For a flute, the tuning usually changes a bit as you warm it up, and /or as the surroundings vary .... cold hot etc. (also your breath changes if you have a hot drink or lots of cold gassy stuff
.... and different people play (flute) differently - I play flat and need the adjustment! If you can try out a non-tunable flute for a while and stay in tune, fair enough.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by spindizzy
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
I'm told by Overton that if you have a non-tunable whistle of theirs they can convert to a tuneable one. The tunable option is of course always the best as few sessions are at A=440. An out of tune session doesn't just sound bad it sounds weak as the discordant contributory elements detract from the overall sound - unlike an in-tune one where the in-tune elements reinforce each other - increasing amplitude, in simple physics terms.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
About "non-tunable" flutes, that would only be a one-piece flute (such as a plastic or bamboo flute). All D wooden flutes I've ever seen have at least two sections, the headjoint and the body. That connexion gives you a bit of tuning latitude. Ideally, the flute should be a tad sharp, say, 442 or 444 with the headjoint shoved all the way in, which allows you to tune with a slightly sharp accordion etc or to get the flute up to pitch when it's cold. Then you can pull the headjoint out a bit to play in 440 when the flute is warmed up, and you can pull it out a tad more to play with people who are playing flat.
But a one-piece whistle you can't do much about. I cut an old non-tunable low G whistle which played too sharp in half and made a crude tuning slide out of a brass tube.
So, you don't necessarily need a tuning slide on a flute as long as it's a two-piece flute, but you do need some sort of tuning latitude on a whistle. Why? Because you'll encounter people who are playing flat or sharp of 440, and you'll find yourself playing in unusually cold or warm conditions.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
I do the same as Reverend to make generations tunable. It works fine! No need for fancy schmancy whistles. But do remember about the temperature effect as the evening goes on and it tends to get warmer, then it'll expand and possibly go a bit flat (but hardly noticeably, really).
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by pfft
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
I have a non-tunable flute. It's at perfect pitch (or so the maker says) with the head joint all the way in, so there's no way to sharpen it. Only flatten it.
I noticed that it wasn't in tune with the others, and so did the others who would change seats so they wouldn't be next to me.
The whistle player in our group simply attaches a piece of index card with a rubber band at the bottom of his whistle. Extending about 1/4 inch or so, he says it helps keep it in tune when the whistle has warmed up. Seems to work. He always sounds great. He's the best player in our group if you ask me.
So save your money if you play the whistle and try a cheaper method first. But spend the money on a tunable flute.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Thank you everyone for your advice and comments.
It appears that a tunable whistle or flute is a must. Has this always been so? When did tunable whistle and flutes first come out? I don't remember seeing or hearing about tunable whistle and flutes until recently.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by gerard1973
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
What I really notice is the different tunings between octaves. Wooden & silver flutes often have a head cork which might (carefully) need a slight adjustment. There was a flute thread where Ailin describes how;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8587/
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Some people have asked about how to designate the key using ABC.
With K:D
you will generate a tune in D major with 2 sharps in the key signature. You can also designate different modes to generate the same effect. Each of the following will give you a tune with 2 sharps;
K:D, K:D major, K:D ionian;
K:E dorian;
K:A mixolydian;
K:B minor, K:Bm, K:B aeolian
More information on fields is described in the last draft standard by Chris Walshaw
http://www.walshaw.plus.com/abc/abc-draft.txt
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Sorry that was meant for the ABC thread.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Just a quick science question to anyone who may know - is the *rate* of expansion, and consequent flattening of note - in equally warm conditions faster or slower - or the same - for a flute vis a vis a whistle?
I suppose they need to be made of the same material - so, say a metal flute, or a low whistle.
Just curious. My guess is it would be the flute or low whistle, as they have greater mass, but I don't know.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
well, i would imagine the first tunable whistle came out when they started making the head separate from the body. to tune most whistles you just move the head up or down a bit on the body. if you play generations or other whistles with a plastic head you might have experienced the same as Reverend did initially, and not realize you can tune them. usually you have to boil it a bit to make the head move. i prefer tunable because you never know if you're gonna be playing w/ someone who can't tune their instrument. this was already discussed, but i figured i'd add my 2 cents
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Whistles I am not so sure, but, flutes are design to be played in tune at one pitch level ie a=440 not a=445. So theoretically, when played at the proper temperature these flutes will be in perfect tune with 440 if played by an accomplished musician. Therefore if played in an environment with less than optimal temperature or tuned to play with an accordian say at 445 or 396 or 441 the flute will be less than perfectly in tune. The reason that flutes are built with slides is because of temperature irregularities, but they still won't play in tune at an outdoor football game (not soccer) in Wisconsin in December. Nor will they be in tune if you have to tune to an accordian that is 30 cents off. The flute world is less perfect than other musical worlds that is why we are more perfect than others that foster the illusion of perfect self intonation.
That is the unvarnished truth... So yes the slide is theoretically unnecessary!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Play bamboo, I do.
# Posted on September 9th 2007 by red_tiger
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
That's an interesting question Maniac raises. From practical experience, thin-walled metal flutes and whistles get cold very quickly but can be warmed back up very quickly- usually blowing warm air into them for less than a minute is enough to get them back up to pitch. Wood flutes and whistles take a lot longer to get cold but cannot be warmed up quickly. Many's the time I've had to leave off playing flute (wooden) at a cold outdoor gig and switch to whistle (thin metal tubing) because the flute was unusably flat. Or, I've taken the flute apart and put it in an inside pocket to keep it warm when not in use.
I've never actually taken an electronic tuner reading of a cold very flat flute or whistle, but they get far too flat to use in an ensemble.
# Posted on September 9th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
doesn't metal shink when cold and therefore sharpen the tuning? I would think a hot day would produce a Flat pitch.
# Posted on September 10th 2007 by Waymer
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
A cold metal flute will play at a lower pitch than a warmed (or hot) one. You are correct regarding the shrinking & swelling of metal with temperature. However, it is the air (which is likewise heated) passing through the flute which raises pitch. Air becomes less dense with a rise in temp. In summer I run cold water over my metal whistles to stabilize the tuning.
# Posted on September 10th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Non-Tunable Whistles and Flutes
Waymer, the metal or wood does shrink when cold, which makes the pitch go down. That effect is called "acoustic impedence". Anything that impedes the air column makes the pitch go down. You can see this effect for yourself by blowing on a whistle, then gradually closing your hand around the top of the whistle. As the impedence increases the pitch goes down.
In a wind instrument, for a given length of tubing, the narrower the bore the flatter the pitch and visa versa.
A clear example of this is the fact that the Scottish Highland pipe's "practice chanter" plays a full octave lower than the actual Highland bagpipe's chanter, though it is slightly shorter. The practice chanter has a very narrow bore which greatly flattens the pitch, while the actual pipe chanter has a large bore.
Then why, you ask, does a low D whistle have a bigger bore than a high D whistle? That's because in any whistle or flute there's an ideal ratio of bore diameter to bore length. If the bore is too small (for a given length) the low notes will be very quiet or may not sound at all. If the bore is too big the high notes will be difficult to play. There's a compromise bore diameter which gives acceptably full-sounding low notes and acceptably easy-to-play high notes.
# Posted on September 22nd 2007 by Richard D Cook