How is it that Electric Pianos seem to have become universally accepted into sessions? As far as I can tell they are the only electric instrument allowed in sessions without protest.
If I was to bring an electric guitar into a session and try to play along, no matter how well I played and blended in with everyone else I'm sure I'd get a fair few dirty looks, if not worse, but I don't and probably never will bring an electric guitar into a session because to me the electric guitar wouldn't work in a session where everything else is acoustic.
So why does the same not apply to pianos? Does anyone else hate the sound of an electric piano in a session? I'll be honest and say I'm not too pushed about piano in trad aside from a few tasteful players who go beyond the old US style. In fact if more pianists played like Cape Breton pianists I'd be much more open to pianos, but that's another debate.
So my main question, what do you all think of electric pianos in sessions? I know they probably first started being used in places where there was no real piano, but now you often see real pianos being neglected in corners while electric pianos are in abundance.
Electric pianos are fine for electronic music, but aren't they really out of place in acoustic Irish traditional music?
Discuss?...Ermm....I'm too scared to, now.
Do you mean a smallish keyboard? I've only ever seen two to be honest, so I'm not quite sure they're exactly "universally accepted". Personally speaking, I'm not very keen on them, even if played well, which both were. A, because they are electric, and B, because they still have an electronicky sound even if they have good samples (OK, maybe that does not include a high quality Korg, or something.) It just somehow goes against the grain. But surely they're not the only electric instrument - what about miked up fiddles and semi-acoustic guitars?
When I've been to a session with a piano, it always seemed to dominate the session and was not played very well(bass, chord, bass, chord, and so on). I have used the excuse when asked about a piano(and a stand up bass more than once), that our session space is too small for this. This may not make sense to some, given the fact that we have use a piano in our Ceili band. I guess it is just 2 different styles of ITM.
Danny, I mean ANY size electric keyboard played with a piano sound, I've never heard anyone play a synth at a session, now that would be interesting!!
I've noticed electric pianos are used an awful lot in Clare and I've seen a few editions of the show Geantrai on TG4 where electric pianos are used, this is unforgivable to me, a TV show where everything is pre-arranged, surely they could get a real bloody piano in!
As for miked fiddles and semi-acoustic guitars, I'm talking about sessions here, not gigs. Miked up 'Sessions' are gigs not sessions, I'm not talking about them. In a miked up gig every instrument becomes electric.
Just so you know I'm not 100% anti-piano I do think Charlie Lennon, Jim Corry (Tulla Ceili Band) and Padraic O'Reilly are very good trad pianists, still I much prefer hearing them play a real piano.
Maybe I should actually carry an electric guitar and amp around in my car and whenever an electric piano appears at a session I'll take my electric guitar and amp out and see what happens
I recently went to a club concert where a supposed semi famous professional musician was playing, with the nufolk indie scottish flair that is much touted. He jumped around with a great deal of energy, hitting the pre recorded backing singers (himself in different harmonics) while banging on a very sophisticated keyboard (with more sound effects) alternatively playing one of those keyboard guitar things. He was promoting himself as an innovative traditional musician. Apparently he won some awards once.
One of the regular sessions I attend at the Plough & Stars in San Francisco is co-hosted by an excellent piano player who brings an electric keyboard. Of course, it helps that she's a great player, knows the tunes, etc. I really feel it's a legitimate exception; because its loudness can be so well controlled to the appropriate level of the pub and musicians, it's far nicer to play with than an acoustic piano might be. And, it's always in tune!
I agree with everything you said, Keith, except about having a preference for an electric piano. I prefer to play with an acoustic piano for a couple of reasons. One is that you can hear all of the tones, and two; it blends with the acoustic instruments better. Because the session at the Plough happens in the center of the pub instead of over by the stage where the acoustic piano is, Barb's electric piano allows her to play in the session. She has a light touch, and even though the acoustic piano isn't tuned perfectly -- I still prefer to hear her play that. Since the session isn't near the acoustic piano, her electric one is fine, but not preferable... to me anyway.
I guess the difference is that electric piano sounds like a piano, while, electric guitar sounds like, erm, electric guitar. I've seen couple of e-pianos played throughout sessions, sometimes to the detriment, but at least two times to the advantage of the session (both in Bun Beag, Donegal... coincidence?).
I guess the convenient thing about e-pianos is that they are:
1. Portable
2. In tune
and this is why they are now generally accepted e.g. in Cape Breton music. Easier to play gigs, dance parties and all that. It also helps to control the volume, I guess - even though that's not an exuse to me - a good musician will control his volume anyway, while a bad one won't hear that he's making a racket.
Of course, nothing like a good old acoustic piano - as long as it's in tune and played by the right person.
Get that sh*t off my lawn...... I can tell you now, if someone came into our session with a piano the wouldnt be able to play it.... we play in a 200 year old pub. the only electricity in it is for the fridge.
Candles, parrafin lamps, fiddles, whistles and bodhrans, thats the way to go mate.
And if he brought batteries with him... I would flog em out the window.
Our pub is 4,000 years old, we get pains in our bottoms from sitting on stone chairs, the fridge opens only when struck with a sledgehammer, the fireplace is fuelled with black coal, and we get the light through a single slot of a window only on winter solstice.
Frisbee wrote:
"If I was to bring an electric guitar into a session ..... I'd get a fair few dirty looks ..... So why does the same not apply to (electric) pianos?"
I think Janek makes a key (npi) point here:
"... the difference is that electric piano sounds like a piano, while, electric guitar sounds like, erm, electric guitar."
- and he goes on to make more valid points regarding portability and in-tune-ness.
An electric piano (or *digital* piano - since 'electric piano' properly refers to instruments such as the Fender Rhodes and Wurlitzer piano, which are a very different kettle of fish) at least *tries* to sound like a piano. The sheer convenience of it is a *vast* leap from an acoustic piano, which needs to be tuned regularly by a trained tuner - at least an hour's work - and it is very awkward to transport. Furthermore, a change of environment and just the movement itself will knock it out of tune. So, considerable savings can be made on time and money.
Digital piano technology advanced enormously over the last 20 years or so, with increased sampling rates, improved amplification systems, the development and refinement of weighted keys and touch sensitivity (making it *feel* as well as *sound* more like a piano). So, by now, they must surely be just as good as, if not better than any 'real' piano.
But, as Key Manic Lad so eloquently put it, "they still have an electronicky sound even if they have good samples". No matter how good the amplifier and speakers, it will always sound like it is coming out of a speaker, because it is.
Do they have a place in sessions? Who am I to say? (which begs the question "Why did I enter this discussion?") I don't like the sound of them, personally. I don't see that its being the only amplified instrument in an otherwise acoustic session is inherently problematic - if it weren't amplified, it wouldn't make any noise. I think the inherent flaw in a digital piano is that its very reason for being is to try to be something it is not. I would much rather play in a session with a well-played electric guitar.
Ok, a little off topic here, don't shoot me Dave,
but what are your opinions on someone like Mick Kinsella who brings a little amp for his tin sandwich?
I think the one big advantage electric/digital pianos have over acousite ones is the portability. A smallish keyboard or even a full size 81 key one is a lot more portable than an upright piano. They don't sound the same as an acoustic piano, it's true, but modern ones sound pretty good, and they're a lot better than the Hammond organ in my local . When they're played by a skilled and imaginative player, they can be a really good alternative to no piano at all.
May the pint never settle. You see, the trouble with this progress business is, once it starts, it just doesn't stop. One day the light and dark separate and then, before you know it, in the space of *5 days*, the place is crawling with animals. Whoever invented the Venetian blind has a lot to answer for.
Ah, Sean, but you try telling that to the young folk, they'll just laugh at you !
PS You may get a call from a fiddler from the BSO when she gets back to the States, I've been trying to advise her on London sessions while she's over these few days ( me, that doesn't go South of Camden Town ! ).
PPS I have a friend who plays the electric piano; she can play at much as she likes at her own session, but I do try to subtly discourage her from taking it anywhere else - I'm not a great fan, and it's not a clubbable instrument.
The sound of an electronic piano comes out through speakers and is therefore coloured by the speakers. The same applies to anything we hear from TV, radio, CD players, LPs, the cinema, etc, and in every case this is enabled by a complex train of electronics from the original live sound to what eventually reaches our ears. I think we're all used to hearing music via speakers. ITM sessions, orchestral and choir concerts are among the few music sources that are played live without electronics and listened to as such by the players and their audience. We should be proud to maintain this tradition.
"what are your opinions on someone like Mick Kinsella who brings a little amp for his tin sandwich?"
By tin sandwich I presume you mean harmonica? I've seen Mick in a few sessions and not once has he used an amp. Perhaps he uses it occasionally when he's booked to do a tourist pub session, i.e. a gig. and needs to be heard over all the accordions!
"the amount of electric accordions I see is vast, and they seem to have been accepted without protest as well"
I'm sure a lot of accordionists are laughing at that one. I've never seen anyone with a battery operated accordion or a plug in one! Accordions are like concertinas and harmonicas, reed operated instruments that get their sound through air.circulating through the reeds. Yes there are digital accordions but I've never seen one at a session.
"the difference is that electric piano sounds like a piano, while, electric guitar sounds like, erm, electric guitar"
I was refering to using an electric guitar to play tunes, it is possible to get an electric guitar to sound quite like the uilleann pipes, but still I wouldn't do that in a session unless it was a session with a bunch of friends who thought it would be fun to try. Try telling any classical pianists that an electric piano sounds like a real one, you'll get some horrified looks! I think we're only accepting the sound because we've become used to it and are maybe forgetting what a real piano sounds like! If you really compared an acoustic piano to an electric piano you'll notice there is a huge difference despite the 'amazing' advances in technology. Acoustic pianos have a much warmer, fuller sound and they don't have to be loud, a good player can play it as quietly as a electric one on its lowest volume.
"When they're played by a skilled and imaginative player, they can be a really good alternative to no piano at all"
I disagree I'd rather no piano at all. Would you say the same about a skilled and imaginative electric guitar tune player?! Arty McGlynn has played tunes on electric guitar on some records, if he turned up at your session with his electric guitar how would you feel about it? I've only ever seen him play acoustic guitar in a session, for good reason too, sessions are meant for acoustic instruments. If we continue the way we're going it won't be long before someone brings electric uilleann pipes into it! Electric pipes might be an interesting addition to a rock band, but not a trad session, I feel the same way about pianos.
Snowyowl - Have you seen electric accordions in *sessions*? Presumably, what you are referring to is 'real' accordions (i.e. with reeds and bellows) with built in transducers and possibly midi electronics - if so, then htey are perfectly capable of being played as acoustic instruments, so I can't imagine why anyone would want to use one plugged in a session (God knows, they can be loud enough as it is!).
I once went to see Phil Cunningham performing solo. He played a midi piano accordion, with the bass side set to mimic the sound of a piano. My thought was, if he wanted piano backing, why didn't he recruit a pianist? If you're going to play a piano accordion, what's wrong with having it sound like a piano accordion? If he doesn't like the sound of a piano accordion, why did he put all that work into getting so good at playing it?
"I was referring to using an electric guitar to play tunes .... I wouldn't do that in a session unless it was a session with a bunch of friends who thought it would be fun to try."
I'm up for it, Frisbee. I'll bring along my mandotron.
I have never actually been in a session with an electric keyboard, and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm not a huge fan of piano accompaniment anyway. (It can be OK, but half the time, it ends up sounding like the painful Coleman recordings, because the person has little to no clue how to do it well).
I like the acoustic nature of sessions, and consider miked sessions to be a performance. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if the intention is for it to be a performance.
But do you think it is inevitable as technology progresses for it to start taking over? I like to hope not...
An electric piano sounds more like a piano nowadays, does that make it OK? The vPipes are pretty cool too, and easier to lug around, and play in tune... But I wouldn't want to see them in a session either...
Well, There's not many pubs with real pianos, and a real piano is not a thing you can carry around easily, is it?
So piano players have no choice. They have to bring an electric piano to sessions, whereas guitar players CAN play acoustic guitars. Besides. many digital pianos have a quite decent real piano sound. I honestly would give hard looks to anyone playing an electric guitar (no matter how well is played) in a session.
Spell's in Ballaghaderreen, Co. Roscommon, has a real upright in the corner. When I was there, there was a piano player from Clare, sometimes member of the Tulla Ceili Band, who had tuned the piano himself earlier in the evening. They're not all bad, you know.
Changed days - there used to be many a pub had an old Joanna in the corner -as did many a house. I remember in my student days in Sheffield in the late 70's, slumming it by going to old local dives, and many of them had pianos, around which the locals would congregate for a knees up on a Saturday night. A kind of singing session, 'cept they'd do Bing and Sinatra numbers.
In a certain pub in North London, there's an old upright piano in the corner. Except, when you open the lid, you discover that it has been gutted, the innards being replaced with.....a Yahama Clavinova or some such like.
Some of the trendy chain pubs - Firkin (Are they still around?) etc. - have a piano as an ornament. They mostly haven't been tuned in 20 years and have their lids permanently locked, lest - Heaven forbid - some young and spirited punter should feel the urge to wax musical of a Friday night.
The Castle inn, Commercial Rd., Whitechapel, has a piano. Horribly out of tune, worn dampers, misaligned hammers - despite being a mere 3 minutes' walk from an institution teaching piano tuning and restoration.
Absolutely brilliant, frisbee, electric pipes, I'm besides myself with excitement at the thought. Just imagine them with a wah-wah pedal and a bit of distortion, played through a Vox AC30. This is the future, no doubt about it.
The very first session I ever went to in the San Francisco bay area had me seated near a gentleman with a set of electronic bagpipes. I believe he purchased it from Lark in the Morning. The entire evening it sounded as if a robotic goat was trying to expell a kuzoo from it's rear end. I was terrified.
Reverend, thanks for the link. Cillian sounds fantastic, this really is something. Played through my computer speakers they sound brilliant. Any thoughts from those that have listened to it?
Hey strayaway, I think they sound great too. I think their main UP sample is from Cillian's set. And you could put just about any sample in there for any kind of pipes (or whatever).
While I could see the vPipes being useful for performances where you're going to be amplified anyway, I would hate to see someone bring a set with an amp into a session. As has already been mentioned in this thread, sound coming out of speakers is shaped by the speakers, and doesn't necessarily blend with acoustic instruments well.
Then again... A volume knob on a set of pipes can't be a bad thing
We have some dudes from the Harp & Thistle GHB band stop by and play with us. They bring their electronic pipes that have a key shifter on them so they can turn the dial and play in D or G.
Everybody quit looking down your nose. I'm in freaking Florida for heaven's sakes. Beggars can't be choosers.
I play in a pub called 'the Thatch'.
Its a legendary pub. It really is a couple of hundred years old, has the original slab floor, thatched roof, the original oak bar, turf fire burning in the fireplace, candles and lanterns for light. The walls are about 2 foot thick and the little 'den' where we play has the best acoustics.
Its like a time machine.
I love that place. Had my first guinness there at 13. aaaah! the memories.
At least the digital pianos have reached the point where it’s hard to distinguish them from a piano played through a microphone. The same can’t be said for a guitar with a pickup. The best are tolerable, but most have a quacky plastic sound.
I don't find it hard to distinguish between a digital piano and a real one played through a mic, providing there's a good sound engineer. Only bad sound engineers make real pianos sound like digital ones!
Most acoustic guitars with cheap pick-ups have 'quacky plastic sound' however a top quality contact mic pick-up can get much closer to sounding like a real guitar than a digital piano can ever get to sounding like a piano.
I think you've just heard too many bad pub singers with bad guitars and bad pick ups and bad sound engineers, unfortunately they are all very common!
besides, I wasn't refering to acoustic guitars with pick-ups I was refering to electic guitars as in telecasters and stratocasters. They aren't meant to sound like acoustic guitars, they have their own sound. As tradpiper says
"I think the inherent flaw in a digital piano is that its very reason for being is to try to be something it is not", the electric guitar isn't trying to be something it's not.
Bob, I found guitar pickups are a matter of throwing money at the problem to get a result. I've got a Baggs dual source in my main guitar, which has a piezo (which sounds quacky) and a internal mic (which sounds boomy), a preamp with an adjustable high-pass on the mic, the option of phase inversion and an overall mix control. Sticking the resultant through mix a DI box (I eventually bought my own) results in a level that sounds pretty good each source (for live work), has too much level on it for a crap mixer pre-amp to muck up, and (excepting the cut for the room's resonant frequency) sounds fine with the EQ knobs left at 12 o'clock.
Yep, the best pickup/mic combos are quite tolerable, if they're installed carefully. They don't fool me, but I'm not distracted by them. I once saw Arty McGlynn playing through a piezo pickup and it literally almost made me sick. Great playing; horrible, teeth-gritting sound.
Maybe we haven't heard the same digital pianos. I've heard plenty that wouldn't fool my ninety year old mother-in-law ("What? Huh? Hello?"), but I've also heard a few, with each of the eighty-eight notes sampled, that could sound almost convincing, depending on the dynamics of the playing. However, they'd be too big and heavy to haul to a session.
Maybe some of it could also be that I care more about guitars than pianos.
Maurice Lennon uses a small mini-amp when he's in sessions. Doesn't bother me. So why should an electric piano bother me? In both cases, surely it's the quality of the playing that counts?
I find even the very best electric "keyboards" still sound fake and plastic. Their presence is like adding Kool-Aid to good wine. If one showed up at a session I would just pack up and leave.
there are some very strange comments there about Mick Kinsella and Maurice Lennon using amps, I've not seen either of them using amps in sessions and to be honest if they do I think its a terrible shame they've felt the need to turn to amplification. I'd say the sessions they use amps in are just loud tourist type sessions where they feel the need to be heard, I'd be very surprised if either of them used amps in general session situations. However I could be wrong.
Hugo, where did you see Mick use an amp?
and Ben where did you see Maurice use an amp?
Anyway, there's still a huge difference between an acoustic instrument being played through an amp and a digital keyboard. Digital keyboards can't react to a musicians fingers in the same way a real piano can.
That’s true, Ben. The weighted keys on a good digital piano do feel very much like a real piano, but the matter of digitally/electronically varying the loudness of a note according to the player’s attack is a different issue - frisbee's last point.
My understanding could well be out-of-date, but here’s how I have it: When you plonk a key on a really good digital piano (RGDP), it essentially plays a recording of the same note played on a real, live concert grand piano. That’s why it can sound so much better than an ordinary electronic keyboard, which usually is based on a small number of sampled notes which are then artificially stretched across the entire range.
Getting the dynamics of the RGDP note to respond naturally to the players touch is where the Subtlety Engineering comes it. It’s not practical to sample a hundred different levels of intensity for each key, so it has to be emulated in the software and electronics. This is where, to my ear, an RGDP loses the most points. Turning up the volume on a recording of a piano playing mezzo-forte does not sound the same as playing the same piano fortissimo, so shaping that part of the sound is challenging.
Anyway, I think all of this is more about what is subjectively acceptable to each of us than what the actual difference are. My reaction to a cheap guitar pickup is far more visceral than my reaction to a cheap keyboard.
I think you're right in a number of different ways, Bob himself. I take your point on the attack thing, but, amazingly, the variation in attack *does* seem to happen with a good digital piano. I'm finding myself wondering, after thinking about your post, Bob, whether this might be imagination 'filling in the blanks' as it were.
And I *totally* agree with your last point - it's about what's "subjectively acceptable" - good phrase, that. (Must write it in the book.)
Yes, I'm impressed with how well the attack emulation *does* work. But maybe, as you said, Ben, I'm filling the blanks with my imagination. I'd be more likely to do that with keyboards than with guitars. I haven't melded with the piano, but I dream in "guitar".
Electric Pianos in Sessions
Electric Pianos in Sessions
How is it that Electric Pianos seem to have become universally accepted into sessions? As far as I can tell they are the only electric instrument allowed in sessions without protest.
If I was to bring an electric guitar into a session and try to play along, no matter how well I played and blended in with everyone else I'm sure I'd get a fair few dirty looks, if not worse, but I don't and probably never will bring an electric guitar into a session because to me the electric guitar wouldn't work in a session where everything else is acoustic.
So why does the same not apply to pianos? Does anyone else hate the sound of an electric piano in a session? I'll be honest and say I'm not too pushed about piano in trad aside from a few tasteful players who go beyond the old US style. In fact if more pianists played like Cape Breton pianists I'd be much more open to pianos, but that's another debate.
So my main question, what do you all think of electric pianos in sessions? I know they probably first started being used in places where there was no real piano, but now you often see real pianos being neglected in corners while electric pianos are in abundance.
Electric pianos are fine for electronic music, but aren't they really out of place in acoustic Irish traditional music?
Discuss
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Discuss?...Ermm....I'm too scared to, now.
Do you mean a smallish keyboard? I've only ever seen two to be honest, so I'm not quite sure they're exactly "universally accepted". Personally speaking, I'm not very keen on them, even if played well, which both were. A, because they are electric, and B, because they still have an electronicky sound even if they have good samples (OK, maybe that does not include a high quality Korg, or something.) It just somehow goes against the grain. But surely they're not the only electric instrument - what about miked up fiddles and semi-acoustic guitars?
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
When I've been to a session with a piano, it always seemed to dominate the session and was not played very well(bass, chord, bass, chord, and so on). I have used the excuse when asked about a piano(and a stand up bass more than once), that our session space is too small for this. This may not make sense to some, given the fact that we have use a piano in our Ceili band. I guess it is just 2 different styles of ITM.
Rob
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by mellow_bellows
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Danny, I mean ANY size electric keyboard played with a piano sound, I've never heard anyone play a synth at a session, now that would be interesting!!
I've noticed electric pianos are used an awful lot in Clare and I've seen a few editions of the show Geantrai on TG4 where electric pianos are used, this is unforgivable to me, a TV show where everything is pre-arranged, surely they could get a real bloody piano in!
As for miked fiddles and semi-acoustic guitars, I'm talking about sessions here, not gigs. Miked up 'Sessions' are gigs not sessions, I'm not talking about them. In a miked up gig every instrument becomes electric.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Just so you know I'm not 100% anti-piano I do think Charlie Lennon, Jim Corry (Tulla Ceili Band) and Padraic O'Reilly are very good trad pianists, still I much prefer hearing them play a real piano.
Maybe I should actually carry an electric guitar and amp around in my car and whenever an electric piano appears at a session I'll take my electric guitar and amp out and see what happens
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I recently went to a club concert where a supposed semi famous professional musician was playing, with the nufolk indie scottish flair that is much touted. He jumped around with a great deal of energy, hitting the pre recorded backing singers (himself in different harmonics) while banging on a very sophisticated keyboard (with more sound effects) alternatively playing one of those keyboard guitar things. He was promoting himself as an innovative traditional musician. Apparently he won some awards once.
See the top photos http://www.klmc.org.nz/gallery_pages/SteveMcDonald.htm
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Joze
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Nah. Not for me. Get a whiste and play the tune, mate, that's what I'd say.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
One of the regular sessions I attend at the Plough & Stars in San Francisco is co-hosted by an excellent piano player who brings an electric keyboard. Of course, it helps that she's a great player, knows the tunes, etc. I really feel it's a legitimate exception; because its loudness can be so well controlled to the appropriate level of the pub and musicians, it's far nicer to play with than an acoustic piano might be. And, it's always in tune!
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I agree with everything you said, Keith, except about having a preference for an electric piano. I prefer to play with an acoustic piano for a couple of reasons. One is that you can hear all of the tones, and two; it blends with the acoustic instruments better. Because the session at the Plough happens in the center of the pub instead of over by the stage where the acoustic piano is, Barb's electric piano allows her to play in the session. She has a light touch, and even though the acoustic piano isn't tuned perfectly -- I still prefer to hear her play that. Since the session isn't near the acoustic piano, her electric one is fine, but not preferable... to me anyway.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I guess the difference is that electric piano sounds like a piano, while, electric guitar sounds like, erm, electric guitar. I've seen couple of e-pianos played throughout sessions, sometimes to the detriment, but at least two times to the advantage of the session (both in Bun Beag, Donegal... coincidence?).
I guess the convenient thing about e-pianos is that they are:
1. Portable
2. In tune
and this is why they are now generally accepted e.g. in Cape Breton music. Easier to play gigs, dance parties and all that. It also helps to control the volume, I guess - even though that's not an exuse to me - a good musician will control his volume anyway, while a bad one won't hear that he's making a racket.
Of course, nothing like a good old acoustic piano - as long as it's in tune and played by the right person.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by EastPole
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Get that sh*t off my lawn...... I can tell you now, if someone came into our session with a piano the wouldnt be able to play it.... we play in a 200 year old pub. the only electricity in it is for the fridge.
Candles, parrafin lamps, fiddles, whistles and bodhrans, thats the way to go mate.
And if he brought batteries with him... I would flog em out the window.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by session savage
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
That's nothing... our pub is 300 years old, we play in the dark and the fridge uses ice delivered daily via donkey cart.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Oh did I say 200 years. ooops I meant 1200........ really.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by session savage
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Our pub is 4,000 years old, we get pains in our bottoms from sitting on stone chairs, the fridge opens only when struck with a sledgehammer, the fireplace is fuelled with black coal, and we get the light through a single slot of a window only on winter solstice.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by EastPole
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Liar.........
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by session savage
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Frisbee wrote:
"If I was to bring an electric guitar into a session ..... I'd get a fair few dirty looks ..... So why does the same not apply to (electric) pianos?"
I think Janek makes a key (npi) point here:
"... the difference is that electric piano sounds like a piano, while, electric guitar sounds like, erm, electric guitar."
- and he goes on to make more valid points regarding portability and in-tune-ness.
An electric piano (or *digital* piano - since 'electric piano' properly refers to instruments such as the Fender Rhodes and Wurlitzer piano, which are a very different kettle of fish) at least *tries* to sound like a piano. The sheer convenience of it is a *vast* leap from an acoustic piano, which needs to be tuned regularly by a trained tuner - at least an hour's work - and it is very awkward to transport. Furthermore, a change of environment and just the movement itself will knock it out of tune. So, considerable savings can be made on time and money.
Digital piano technology advanced enormously over the last 20 years or so, with increased sampling rates, improved amplification systems, the development and refinement of weighted keys and touch sensitivity (making it *feel* as well as *sound* more like a piano). So, by now, they must surely be just as good as, if not better than any 'real' piano.
But, as Key Manic Lad so eloquently put it, "they still have an electronicky sound even if they have good samples". No matter how good the amplifier and speakers, it will always sound like it is coming out of a speaker, because it is.
Do they have a place in sessions? Who am I to say? (which begs the question "Why did I enter this discussion?") I don't like the sound of them, personally. I don't see that its being the only amplified instrument in an otherwise acoustic session is inherently problematic - if it weren't amplified, it wouldn't make any noise. I think the inherent flaw in a digital piano is that its very reason for being is to try to be something it is not. I would much rather play in a session with a well-played electric guitar.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
"we play in the dark and the fridge uses ice delivered daily via donkey cart"
Donkey cart? You mean you use the *wheel*?
Anyway, in our pub, dark hasn't been separated from light yet.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Ok, a little off topic here, don't shoot me Dave,
but what are your opinions on someone like Mick Kinsella who brings a little amp for his tin sandwich?
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
You have to wait a while for the pint to settle, Name..etc.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by RockyRoader
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I think the one big advantage electric/digital pianos have over acousite ones is the portability. A smallish keyboard or even a full size 81 key one is a lot more portable than an upright piano. They don't sound the same as an acoustic piano, it's true, but modern ones sound pretty good, and they're a lot better than the Hammond organ in my local . When they're played by a skilled and imaginative player, they can be a really good alternative to no piano at all.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by snowyowl
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
and the amount of electric accordions I see is vast, and they seem to have been accepted without protest as well
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by snowyowl
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
May the pint never settle. You see, the trouble with this progress business is, once it starts, it just doesn't stop. One day the light and dark separate and then, before you know it, in the space of *5 days*, the place is crawling with animals. Whoever invented the Venetian blind has a lot to answer for.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
NameChangesRConfusing, Janek, Phantom Button, Session Savage, I only have one thing to say:
Luxury!
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by sts
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Ah, Sean, but you try telling that to the young folk, they'll just laugh at you !
PS You may get a call from a fiddler from the BSO when she gets back to the States, I've been trying to advise her on London sessions while she's over these few days ( me, that doesn't go South of Camden Town ! ).
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
PPS I have a friend who plays the electric piano; she can play at much as she likes at her own session, but I do try to subtly discourage her from taking it anywhere else - I'm not a great fan, and it's not a clubbable instrument.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
The sound of an electronic piano comes out through speakers and is therefore coloured by the speakers. The same applies to anything we hear from TV, radio, CD players, LPs, the cinema, etc, and in every case this is enabled by a complex train of electronics from the original live sound to what eventually reaches our ears. I think we're all used to hearing music via speakers. ITM sessions, orchestral and choir concerts are among the few music sources that are played live without electronics and listened to as such by the players and their audience. We should be proud to maintain this tradition.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
"what are your opinions on someone like Mick Kinsella who brings a little amp for his tin sandwich?"
By tin sandwich I presume you mean harmonica? I've seen Mick in a few sessions and not once has he used an amp. Perhaps he uses it occasionally when he's booked to do a tourist pub session, i.e. a gig. and needs to be heard over all the accordions!
"the amount of electric accordions I see is vast, and they seem to have been accepted without protest as well"
I'm sure a lot of accordionists are laughing at that one. I've never seen anyone with a battery operated accordion or a plug in one! Accordions are like concertinas and harmonicas, reed operated instruments that get their sound through air.circulating through the reeds. Yes there are digital accordions but I've never seen one at a session.
"the difference is that electric piano sounds like a piano, while, electric guitar sounds like, erm, electric guitar"
I was refering to using an electric guitar to play tunes, it is possible to get an electric guitar to sound quite like the uilleann pipes, but still I wouldn't do that in a session unless it was a session with a bunch of friends who thought it would be fun to try. Try telling any classical pianists that an electric piano sounds like a real one, you'll get some horrified looks! I think we're only accepting the sound because we've become used to it and are maybe forgetting what a real piano sounds like! If you really compared an acoustic piano to an electric piano you'll notice there is a huge difference despite the 'amazing' advances in technology. Acoustic pianos have a much warmer, fuller sound and they don't have to be loud, a good player can play it as quietly as a electric one on its lowest volume.
"When they're played by a skilled and imaginative player, they can be a really good alternative to no piano at all"
I disagree I'd rather no piano at all. Would you say the same about a skilled and imaginative electric guitar tune player?! Arty McGlynn has played tunes on electric guitar on some records, if he turned up at your session with his electric guitar how would you feel about it? I've only ever seen him play acoustic guitar in a session, for good reason too, sessions are meant for acoustic instruments. If we continue the way we're going it won't be long before someone brings electric uilleann pipes into it! Electric pipes might be an interesting addition to a rock band, but not a trad session, I feel the same way about pianos.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Snowyowl - Have you seen electric accordions in *sessions*? Presumably, what you are referring to is 'real' accordions (i.e. with reeds and bellows) with built in transducers and possibly midi electronics - if so, then htey are perfectly capable of being played as acoustic instruments, so I can't imagine why anyone would want to use one plugged in a session (God knows, they can be loud enough as it is!).
I once went to see Phil Cunningham performing solo. He played a midi piano accordion, with the bass side set to mimic the sound of a piano. My thought was, if he wanted piano backing, why didn't he recruit a pianist? If you're going to play a piano accordion, what's wrong with having it sound like a piano accordion? If he doesn't like the sound of a piano accordion, why did he put all that work into getting so good at playing it?
But maybe it's just personal taste.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
"I was referring to using an electric guitar to play tunes .... I wouldn't do that in a session unless it was a session with a bunch of friends who thought it would be fun to try."
I'm up for it, Frisbee. I'll bring along my mandotron.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I agree.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by maxF
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Same here. What are we talking about, though?
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I have never actually been in a session with an electric keyboard, and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm not a huge fan of piano accompaniment anyway. (It can be OK, but half the time, it ends up sounding like the painful Coleman recordings, because the person has little to no clue how to do it well).
I like the acoustic nature of sessions, and consider miked sessions to be a performance. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if the intention is for it to be a performance.
But do you think it is inevitable as technology progresses for it to start taking over? I like to hope not...
An electric piano sounds more like a piano nowadays, does that make it OK? The vPipes are pretty cool too, and easier to lug around, and play in tune... But I wouldn't want to see them in a session either...
Pete
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Well, There's not many pubs with real pianos, and a real piano is not a thing you can carry around easily, is it?
So piano players have no choice. They have to bring an electric piano to sessions, whereas guitar players CAN play acoustic guitars. Besides. many digital pianos have a quite decent real piano sound. I honestly would give hard looks to anyone playing an electric guitar (no matter how well is played) in a session.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Toni Ribas
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Spell's in Ballaghaderreen, Co. Roscommon, has a real upright in the corner. When I was there, there was a piano player from Clare, sometimes member of the Tulla Ceili Band, who had tuned the piano himself earlier in the evening. They're not all bad, you know.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Changed days - there used to be many a pub had an old Joanna in the corner -as did many a house. I remember in my student days in Sheffield in the late 70's, slumming it by going to old local dives, and many of them had pianos, around which the locals would congregate for a knees up on a Saturday night. A kind of singing session, 'cept they'd do Bing and Sinatra numbers.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I agree with you Reverend.... but why did you go and say the P word....... I'm off!!!
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by session savage
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
In a certain pub in North London, there's an old upright piano in the corner. Except, when you open the lid, you discover that it has been gutted, the innards being replaced with.....a Yahama Clavinova or some such like.
Some of the trendy chain pubs - Firkin (Are they still around?) etc. - have a piano as an ornament. They mostly haven't been tuned in 20 years and have their lids permanently locked, lest - Heaven forbid - some young and spirited punter should feel the urge to wax musical of a Friday night.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
The Castle inn, Commercial Rd., Whitechapel, has a piano. Horribly out of tune, worn dampers, misaligned hammers - despite being a mere 3 minutes' walk from an institution teaching piano tuning and restoration.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Absolutely brilliant, frisbee, electric pipes, I'm besides myself with excitement at the thought. Just imagine them with a wah-wah pedal and a bit of distortion, played through a Vox AC30. This is the future, no doubt about it.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
The very first session I ever went to in the San Francisco bay area had me seated near a gentleman with a set of electronic bagpipes. I believe he purchased it from Lark in the Morning. The entire evening it sounded as if a robotic goat was trying to expell a kuzoo from it's rear end. I was terrified.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Strayaway - Why would you want wah-wah on uillean pipes? That would be like putting reverb on a church organ.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
For those of you that haven't seen them, the vPipes are actually pretty cool, but again, I wouldn't want to see them in a session...
http://www.vpipes.com
Pete
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
"The very first session I ever went to in the San Francisco bay area had me seated near a gentleman with a set of electronic bagpipes."
Wow... I seem to miss all the really weird sessions.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Reverend, thanks for the link. Cillian sounds fantastic, this really is something. Played through my computer speakers they sound brilliant. Any thoughts from those that have listened to it?
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Hey strayaway, I think they sound great too. I think their main UP sample is from Cillian's set. And you could put just about any sample in there for any kind of pipes (or whatever).
While I could see the vPipes being useful for performances where you're going to be amplified anyway, I would hate to see someone bring a set with an amp into a session. As has already been mentioned in this thread, sound coming out of speakers is shaped by the speakers, and doesn't necessarily blend with acoustic instruments well.
Then again... A volume knob on a set of pipes can't be a bad thing
Pete
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I agree, not in an acoustic setting. The potential is amazing, though, don't you think?
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
where is that pub you play in session savage???
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by cg.f
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
We have some dudes from the Harp & Thistle GHB band stop by and play with us. They bring their electronic pipes that have a key shifter on them so they can turn the dial and play in D or G.
Everybody quit looking down your nose. I'm in freaking Florida for heaven's sakes. Beggars can't be choosers.
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I play in a pub called 'the Thatch'.
Its a legendary pub. It really is a couple of hundred years old, has the original slab floor, thatched roof, the original oak bar, turf fire burning in the fireplace, candles and lanterns for light. The walls are about 2 foot thick and the little 'den' where we play has the best acoustics.
Its like a time machine.
I love that place. Had my first guinness there at 13. aaaah! the memories.
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by session savage
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I'm going there tonight
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by session savage
AAAAAAAAH! I love fridays.
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by session savage
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
At least the digital pianos have reached the point where it’s hard to distinguish them from a piano played through a microphone. The same can’t be said for a guitar with a pickup. The best are tolerable, but most have a quacky plastic sound.
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I don't find it hard to distinguish between a digital piano and a real one played through a mic, providing there's a good sound engineer. Only bad sound engineers make real pianos sound like digital ones!
Most acoustic guitars with cheap pick-ups have 'quacky plastic sound' however a top quality contact mic pick-up can get much closer to sounding like a real guitar than a digital piano can ever get to sounding like a piano.
I think you've just heard too many bad pub singers with bad guitars and bad pick ups and bad sound engineers, unfortunately they are all very common!
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
besides, I wasn't refering to acoustic guitars with pick-ups I was refering to electic guitars as in telecasters and stratocasters. They aren't meant to sound like acoustic guitars, they have their own sound. As tradpiper says
"I think the inherent flaw in a digital piano is that its very reason for being is to try to be something it is not", the electric guitar isn't trying to be something it's not.
# Posted on September 7th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Bob, I found guitar pickups are a matter of throwing money at the problem to get a result. I've got a Baggs dual source in my main guitar, which has a piezo (which sounds quacky) and a internal mic (which sounds boomy), a preamp with an adjustable high-pass on the mic, the option of phase inversion and an overall mix control. Sticking the resultant through mix a DI box (I eventually bought my own) results in a level that sounds pretty good each source (for live work), has too much level on it for a crap mixer pre-amp to muck up, and (excepting the cut for the room's resonant frequency) sounds fine with the EQ knobs left at 12 o'clock.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Yep, the best pickup/mic combos are quite tolerable, if they're installed carefully. They don't fool me, but I'm not distracted by them. I once saw Arty McGlynn playing through a piezo pickup and it literally almost made me sick. Great playing; horrible, teeth-gritting sound.
Maybe we haven't heard the same digital pianos. I've heard plenty that wouldn't fool my ninety year old mother-in-law ("What? Huh? Hello?"), but I've also heard a few, with each of the eighty-eight notes sampled, that could sound almost convincing, depending on the dynamics of the playing. However, they'd be too big and heavy to haul to a session.
Maybe some of it could also be that I care more about guitars than pianos.
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Yes it is a harmonica. Have you never heard that expression???
Anyway. When I've played with him, he always uses it.
And its not in "touristy pubs" as you suggest.
Feel free to answer the question tho...
# Posted on September 9th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Maurice Lennon uses a small mini-amp when he's in sessions. Doesn't bother me. So why should an electric piano bother me? In both cases, surely it's the quality of the playing that counts?
# Posted on September 9th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I find even the very best electric "keyboards" still sound fake and plastic. Their presence is like adding Kool-Aid to good wine. If one showed up at a session I would just pack up and leave.
# Posted on September 9th 2007 by gldms
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Really? Maurice amps his fiddle at sessions?
# Posted on September 10th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
there are some very strange comments there about Mick Kinsella and Maurice Lennon using amps, I've not seen either of them using amps in sessions and to be honest if they do I think its a terrible shame they've felt the need to turn to amplification. I'd say the sessions they use amps in are just loud tourist type sessions where they feel the need to be heard, I'd be very surprised if either of them used amps in general session situations. However I could be wrong.
Hugo, where did you see Mick use an amp?
and Ben where did you see Maurice use an amp?
Anyway, there's still a huge difference between an acoustic instrument being played through an amp and a digital keyboard. Digital keyboards can't react to a musicians fingers in the same way a real piano can.
# Posted on September 10th 2007 by Fartknocker
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
A: in Dublin, in an out of the way, non-tourist, quiet pub.
... and these days digital pianos with 'touch' respond to a musician's fingers in a way pretty much indistinguishable from that of a 'real' piano.
# Posted on September 10th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
That’s true, Ben. The weighted keys on a good digital piano do feel very much like a real piano, but the matter of digitally/electronically varying the loudness of a note according to the player’s attack is a different issue - frisbee's last point.
My understanding could well be out-of-date, but here’s how I have it: When you plonk a key on a really good digital piano (RGDP), it essentially plays a recording of the same note played on a real, live concert grand piano. That’s why it can sound so much better than an ordinary electronic keyboard, which usually is based on a small number of sampled notes which are then artificially stretched across the entire range.
Getting the dynamics of the RGDP note to respond naturally to the players touch is where the Subtlety Engineering comes it. It’s not practical to sample a hundred different levels of intensity for each key, so it has to be emulated in the software and electronics. This is where, to my ear, an RGDP loses the most points. Turning up the volume on a recording of a piano playing mezzo-forte does not sound the same as playing the same piano fortissimo, so shaping that part of the sound is challenging.
Anyway, I think all of this is more about what is subjectively acceptable to each of us than what the actual difference are. My reaction to a cheap guitar pickup is far more visceral than my reaction to a cheap keyboard.
# Posted on September 10th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
I think you're right in a number of different ways, Bob himself. I take your point on the attack thing, but, amazingly, the variation in attack *does* seem to happen with a good digital piano. I'm finding myself wondering, after thinking about your post, Bob, whether this might be imagination 'filling in the blanks' as it were.
And I *totally* agree with your last point - it's about what's "subjectively acceptable" - good phrase, that. (Must write it in the book.)
# Posted on September 10th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
Yes, I'm impressed with how well the attack emulation *does* work. But maybe, as you said, Ben, I'm filling the blanks with my imagination. I'd be more likely to do that with keyboards than with guitars. I haven't melded with the piano, but I dream in "guitar".
# Posted on September 10th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
In Dublin, with a loud guitar , fiddle, and tin whistle.
Friday night. Possibly not pin drop quiet, but not the kind of pub you suggested (twice)
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Electric Pianos in Sessions
well I'm quite surprised to hear that Hugo, I must ask Mick why he does it some time.
# Posted on September 11th 2007 by Fartknocker