A couple years ago there was a discussion about ITM tunes that crossover into bluegrass (see http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6441/comments#comment137391). As a follow-up extension of this topic, I'm wondering if any of you mix bluegrass and ITM tunes in the groups in which you play (not necessarily sessions)? How do you combine the two or do you separate the two when you play them? What tune sets go together? In what order to you present the tunes so the excitement of the music builds? Obviously, groups have done this successfully before: the Chieftains, for example, and Ricky Skaggs, who has put a Celtic flavor into a couple of his songs/instrumentals. Are any of you doing this now? If so, what sets have you put together? Have any of you tried this and given up?
Interesting, I was just at a (fantastic!) bluegrass festival this weekend, and ran across one impromptu session of Irish-type musicians---there was a fiddle, mandolin, tin whistle, bodhran, and guitar. They didn't mix tunes so much as they played the Irish tunes bluegrass-style---round the circle, each instrument played the tune while the rest played rhythm---it sounded okay but a little odd too because there was no creative improv from the soloing instruments like you would expect in bluegrass, but it took a long time to get through a tune because each instrument had to have a turn, which kind of sapped it of the energy you usually hear in Irish music. And that was just for each tune. A whole set would have taken a long time!
I know there are professional musicians who combine the styles successfully---I just got the impression that it's not as easy as you might think to do it in an informal setting.
I've always found it impossible to combine Irish and American tunes - or, for that matter, even Irish and Scottish or English, or other Irish! The swing and accentuation is so different that the tunes just can't really flow into one another, you know? It's gotten to the point where I tend to play Sliabh Luachra sets, Sligo sets, Donegal sets, because the intonation and accentuation can make it legitimately tough to transition from one to the next.
There are a number of tunes that seem to find their way across the traditions (Irish, Scottish, bluegrass, old time...)
However, in my experience, problems arise because of this. Irish doesn't sound like bluegrass, and that fact is lost on a lot of players. If I play a Scottish tune, it tends to come out sounding like Irish. If a bluegrass player sits down in an Irish session, they may know the tunes, but it will end up sounding like bluegrass as far as swing, lift, etc.
And that can drag a session down.
So I'll second SWFL Fiddler's vote: "please don't"
I started with Old TIme fiddle which has some shared tunes with Irish, but even those are played quite a bit differently. And, as mentioned already, the lilt and swing in Irish music doesn't exist in the Old Time world, so I can't imagine it working too well with Bluegrass either.
I don't think I could ever be a big fan, but to each his own. I'm with the 3 before me. I'm reminded of an anti-drug campaign in the states "Just say NO".
I was recently at a neighborhood BBQ where a bunch of bluegrass musicians played to amuse the folks. They were good at bluegrass, but when they strayed across into Celtic they kept to the bluegrass style and the results were tooth-gritting. I've seen that go the other way, too; trad players mangling bluegrass idioms. I think they're just too different to marry well.
On the other hand, I was at an Irish session not long ago (led by one of the best fiddlers in town) and this bluegrass fiddler sat in for an hour or so and mostly played along quietly...but then he started playing harmony on a few tunes, the way he would have improvised in a bluegrass jam, and it sounded terrific. They had obviously played together before and knew each other's styles, though, so again, I suspect it takes a lot of experience and skill to make it sound halfway decent.
Once in a blue moon at our session, we toss in a set of tunes in a bluegrass or old timey style. But we don't mix them in a set with Irish tunes. The pulse is too different.
It also makes a difference that several of us have played (some professionally) for many years in all three of those genres. So we know precisely how to shift gears from one idiom to the next.
A lot of the responses in this thread may have to do with the level of competency heard with each music. It is very likely that you have not heard musicians who share the same level of musicianship with each genera.
In our session if there is an old time tune played (and OT and bluegrass are as different as Scottish and Irish music, at least so we don't play BG) it is usually coupled with other old time tunes with the exception of "Wind That Shakes The Barley" which for some reason which seems to go well with "Soldier's Joy."
It is rare to find musicians who can play both genera well and it is awful to hear someone play one well and botch up the other. It's even worse to find players who botch both and insist on playing anyway. (There are very few musicians who can play BG competently but there are a lot of pretenders out there.)
But there are musicians who are capable of playing in more than one style and when that happens, the result can be very enjoyable. Too bad there are so few who can do so (Bruce Molsky is one.)
OT and Irish have more in common than BG and Irish. In fact, BG music (i.e the music of Bill Monroe and descendants) is not very much like Irish or Scottish music at all since it is partially blues based, has a back beat, and is a commercial concert style of music. Old Time music, on the other hand, is dance music, played ensemble, and repeated far more times than would be accepted in a session. OT shares a number of tunes and has a lot of the cultural values of a session, too.
I agree that BG musicians have a hard time hearing Irish music (and vice versa) but if an effort is made, the twain can meet. I just think a lot of you have never heard those musicians who can do that well <G>
I play celtic music. I recently moved in Alberta, for studying and my roommate got inspired by my playing and took up the 5 strings banjo 3 years ago. No need to remind me I am crazy to let him take up this instrument ; ). But he likes bluegrass and I personally think bluegrass is cool. So I took up some bluegrass. So we started a little band who plays a mix of both. But It is hard to mix both music, we do a set mostly bluegrass and then a set mostly celtic. The beat is so different.
It is like a culture, or language. You can speak a language using the wording of another language and people might understand you, but the spirit, ambiance, nuances will just not sound right. It takes lot of practices to learn the particularities of another language.
I think that you can put Irish into Bluegrass but you can't put Bluegrass into Irish.
The former is how it probably happened historically anyway.
Also there would be certain types of tunes that would work as bluegrass eg. Teetotaller Reel (the G to Em one) . You'd have to dig for them I reckon because there'd only be a certain percentage say of reels that work.
There is no mixing oil and water. I hear people say there are common tunes????? I cant think of one. People often have a misunderstanding of bluegrass... it is music that developed in the 1940's based largely on the original songwriting of Bill Monroe and the Stanley Brothers. You may ask... what about the fiddle tunes? Bill Monroes music was more fiddled based than anyone elses but the instrumentals they played were mainly his compositions... some of them have a hint of "celtic" modality to them, but they are very different. Old-Time is a very different type of music altogther... and also in its current state has little to do with irish music. I know Im taking up space with this but look at the the top 30 bluegrass ongs (that could also include instrumentals---tunes)----- They are all original songs by modern writers.... Yea, but what about Ricky Skaggs and the Chiftans and down the old plank road and all of that???? Some of those tunes arent normally even played by bluegrass bands... Check out the top 30 and tell me what bluegrass has to do with irish or even trad. music....
01 SADIE'S GOT HER NEW DRESS ON
Writer: (Connie Leigh)
Album: MORE BEHIND THE PICTURE THAN THE WALL
Label: Rounder (#0588) DOYLE LAWSON & QUICKSILVER
02 RITA MAE
Writer: (Connie Leigh)
Album: CATCH TOMORROW
Label: Compass (#4445) DALE ANN BRADLEY
03 PILL OR POTION
Writer: (Russell Johnson)
Album: HOME TO CAROLINA
Label: NewTime (#1009) GRASS CATS
04 YOUR EYES
Writer: (Laurie Lewis)
Album: THE GOLDEN WEST
Label: Hightone (#8194) LAURIE LEWIS & THE RIGHT HANDS
05 ROCKWELL'S GOLD
Writer: (R. Kohrs, D. Goodwin, A. Brown)
Album: OLD PHOTOGRAPH
Label: Rural Rhythm (#1030) RANDY KOHRS
06 LEFTY'S OLD GUITAR
Writer: (Dave Maggard, Jack Spencer)
Album: LEFTY'S OLD GUITAR
Label: Rounder (#0512) J.D. CROWE & THE NEW SOUTH
07 FORK IN THE ROAD
Writer: (Chris Jones, John Pennell)
Album: FORK IN THE ROAD
Label: Sugar Hill (#4021) INFAMOUS STRINGDUSTERS
08 SAWING ON THE STRINGS
Writer: (Lewis Compton)
Album: A HUNDRED MILES OR MORE: A COLLECTION
Label: Rounder (#0555) ALISON KRAUSS
09 COLD BLUE DAY
Writer: (Tim Stafford)
Album: LIFE IN A SONG
Label: Rounder (#0576) NEWFOUND ROAD
10 DOWN THE TRAIL OF ACHING HEARTS
Writer: (Jimmy Kennedy, Nat Simon)
Album: THE TRAIL OF ACHING HEARTS
Label: Pinecastle (#1156) SPECIAL CONSENSUS
11 LIVIN' IT DOWN
Writer: (Elmer Burchett, Jr., Danny Barnes)
Album: SOUNDS LIKE HOME
Label: Lonesome Day (#010) STEVE GULLEY
12 POWDERFINGER
Writer: (Neil Young)
Album: LET THE RIDE BEGIN
Label: Pinecastle (#1154) CIRCUIT RIDERS
13 THE LAST SUIT YOU WEAR
Writer: (L. Shell, L. Williams, K. Williams)
Album: THE LAST SUIT YOU WEAR
Label: McCoury Music (#0004) LARRY SPARKS
14 LONESOME WON'T GET THE BEST OF ME
Writer: (J. Salley, J. Johnson, C. Stefl)
Album: THE ROAD WITH NO END
Label: Mountain Home (#10992) LONESOME RIVER BAND
15 THAT'S HOW THE COOKIE CRUMBLES
Writer: (Jim Lauderdale)
Album: SITTIN' ON TOP OF THE WORLD
Label: Pinecastle (#1157) JACK COOKE
16 IN MY HOUR OF DARKNESS
Writer: (Gram Parsons, Emmylou Harris)
Album: SLIDIN' HOME
Label: Rebel (#1820) JOHN STARLING & CAROLINA STAR
17 LONG LIST OF HEARTACHES
Writer: (J. Johnson, M. Lindsey, R. Wayland)
Album: LONG LIST OF HEARTACHES
Label: Rounder (#0583) GRASCALS
18 THE OLD COAL MINE
Writer: (Mark Brinkman)
Album: THE LAST SUIT YOU WEAR
Label: McCoury Music (#0004) LARRY SPARKS
19 GOING ON THE NEXT TRAIN
Writer: (Jennifer Strickland)
Album: CARRIE HASSLER AND HARD RAIN
Label: Rural Rhythm (#1028) CARRIE HASSLER AND HARD RAIN
20 BOTTOM OF A GLASS
Writer: (Donna Hughes)
Album: GAINING WISDOM
Label: Rounder (#0554) DONNA HUGHES
21 HILLBILLY HEMINGWAY
Writer: (Mike Ward, Tommy Meece, Carl Jackson)
Album: HILLBILLY HEMINGWAY
Label: Rebel (#1819) MARK NEWTON BAND
22 IF IT WEREN'T FOR BLUEGRASS MUSIC, I'D GO CRAZY
Writer: (Tommy Webb)
Album: EASTERN KENTUCKY
Label: Kindred Records (#47186) TOMMY WEBB
23 DIXIE FLYER
Writer: (Susan Longacre, Jim Photoglo, Russell Smith)
Album: THE ROAD HEADIN' HOME
Label: Pinecastle (#1158) GRASSTOWNE
24 BORN LONESOME
Writer: (Bryan Simpson)
Album: BLIND MAN WALKING
Label: Skaggs Family (#172) CADILLAC SKY
25 POOR BOY'S DELIGHT
Writer: (Benny Galloway)
Album: FORK IN THE ROAD
Label: Sugar Hill (#4021) INFAMOUS STRINGDUSTERS
26 CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?
Writer: (T. Hall, D. Hall, J. Williams)
Album: MORE BEHIND THE PICTURE THAN THE WALL
Label: Rounder (#0588) DOYLE LAWSON & QUICKSILVER
27 THE CROW
Writer: (Stephen Glenn Martin)
Album: DOUBLE BANJO BLUEGRASS SPECTACULAR
Label: Rounder (#0548) TONY TRISCHKA WITH STEVE MARTIN
28 YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT LOVE IS
Writer: (Cia Cherryholmes)
Album: CHERRYHOLMES II: BLACK AND WHITE
Label: Skaggs Family (#182) CHERRYHOLMES
29 LOVIN' PRETTY WOMEN
Writer: (Graham Sharp)
Album: LOVIN' PRETTY WOMEN
Label: Rebel (#1824) STEEP CANYON RANGERS
30 CAROLINA ROAD
Writer: (Tom T. Hall, Dixie Hall)
Album: CAROLINA ROAD
Label: Blue Circle (#006)
Outside of the aforementioned Ricky Skaggs, I have never heard an Old Timey or Bluegrasser mesh well with Irish music. Living in the American Southwest we get the occasional Bluegrass fiddler who stops into one of our local sessions. Usually, they haven't the faintest notion of ITM. We may share a few crossover tunes - Ashokan Farewell, Soldier's Joy, etc. But the similarities end there. They are simply not used to playing within the stylistically rigid confines of a contemporary Irish session, and usually muck it up. With out fail, at some point somebody turns to the bluegrasser and says "It's not a jam session bro, if you don't know the tune , please don't play."
Although I play both ITM and BG, I don't really mix them, mostly for the reasons stated above. I will say, however, that Kevin Burke's version of Bill Monroe's terrific tune "Jerusalem Ridge" (between Shepherd's Daughter and another reel on the album he did with the hamonica players) sure seems to fit in the tradition.
Tim O'Brien's band "The Crossing" did this about as well as I've ever heard it done. It didn't sound bad at all, but honestly, I think it's pretty difficult to get it right. I've heard dozens of others try, and it usually sounds like a half-baked version of one or the other...
There's a very delicate balance between merging two different kinds of music. In the end, it's not likely to sound like something that real fans of either music really like, but if that balance is nailed just right, it might sound good to someone else...
For the record, I've heard it done wrong more often than right...
I seem to have struck a chord...shoulda played the tune instead. That was awful, sorry.
The real issue here is with the word: "noodling"
At an Irish music session, it means to play along only when you know the exact tune and to be silent and listen when you don't, or at least play inaudibly, if possible.
At a Bluegrass session it appears to mean playing notes that aren't the tune.
Disclaimer: Old Timey ain't bad. There are plenty of grand old American fiddle tunes, many related to Irish tunes that immigrated as well as their players. There are even regional styles of American and Canadian fiddling, of course.
The typical instrumentation of the two styles don't even match. How's this supposed to work?
It takes seasoned musicians that understand both styles across the board to be able to mix the two within a single group. Every instrument plays completely different in each of the two styles if the instrument appears in both at all. It only takes one player that doesn't understand the differences to turn the whole affair into an impromptu experiment.
There are other fundamental issues. The recent topic on trying to play bass in a session touched on several. ITM is driven the melody, the melody instruments define the rhythmic pulse of the tune. ITM has "lift". Bluegrass and other similar styles are driven by the chord changes and the rhythm section. The bass and the guitar player set the foundation. Instead of "lift" Bluegrass has "drive". Many players of traditional/folk music do not understand technically what gives melody its lift, or a rhythm section its drive. They typically find it by accident after years of repetition listening to those that can produce it. Most can't even read standard notation or, God forbid, count the beats in a bar. (Not to say that can't produce some wonderful music, they just don't need to have this kind of background.) Asking them to switch between the two is typically going to give you a train wreck. If freaky hybrids are you're thing, have at it.
If you are personally motivated to learn to play both styles, then you'll probably be better off playing in two different bands rather than trying to coerce a band centered on one style to play in another.
Im not against anyone playing the 2 different styles of music... theres just a lot of misconception about what bluegrass is... I used to play it semi-pro and I was and am amazed at the people (musicians) who thought they were/are playing "ancient" music... also there is a misconception that "if you can play bluegrass... you can play anything...." Its just not true.
Tim Obrien's Crossings cd really isnt very bluegrassy... ever since he left "Hotrize" he has leaned towards older trad. styles with his CDs...
In his live shows... at least the ones Ive seen and Ive seen many... and even played the same festival with him once or twice, it's alot more bluegrassy than his CDs.... Overall, Id say he is a bluegrass musician who can play different styles and "gets it," but the Crossing is definitely not a CD bluegrass fans are listening to. (see my top 30)
One thing thats easy to do is to lump all American trad. music into the "bluegrass" category.... that's just not accurate. We shouldnt forget that the USA does have Irish music traditions that dont have anything to do with bluegrass or old time.... some of these traditions are well known "city" traditions like New York and Chicago... but Irish music is and has been a part of rural American areas as well like the Mid Atlantic Appalachian area, Pennsylvania (see some of my tune submissions), Montana http://www.butteamerica.com/birish.htm), and Im sure there are other "pockets."
Funny, Butte had the Irish when it was in its mining hayday, but hardly anyone there plays now, despite a healthy Irish heritage among the locals. John "The Yank" Harrington was a Butte box player till the day he died (RIP), and he pretty much carried the music on his own. Now it's up to Mick Cavanaugh and Tom Powers, with Cindy Powers keeping the dance alive. At one point, the surrounding county had the highest per capita Irish ethnicity of any place in America.
Bozeman and Helena MT have vibrant, well-rounded Irish sessions. (Helena still has a strong Irish-American population and a beautiful catholic cathedral). But the rest of Montana is fairly thin for Irish music, although there have been sessions in the Bitterroot Valley, up by Libby, and over in Billings.
I played 5-string banjo in a bluegrass band up and down the East coast and Appalachians USA for 10 years (many years ago). I was also learning Irish trad fiddle at the time. It definitely takes an understanding of both (very different) genres to play them well, and to hear where a tune might be slanted the other way. But it's definitely a difference of trad vs. blues-derived improv, and the two just don't blend well for me.
Isnt the rest of Montana just plain thin for people? (lol) John the Yank... I was thinking about him when I wrote that post! One of the last paid bluegrass shows I did was in Helena. I love Montana and tried to to talk my wife into moving there... which she almost considered since shes from Bismarck ND.
Thanks for all of your responses. This discussion has confirmed my thoughts that the two types of music should, for the most part, be kept separate. I enjoy both types of music and both types of sessions, but, as stated above, it is extremely difficult to be good at both and, as one person said, "you can't mix oil and water." I was asked to play some Irish in a bluegrass band and had major reservations about it for some of the reasons you've all pointed out. I didn't understand how the two would be combined and didn't envision the BG people playing ITM without an understanding of the music or the BG audience sitting through ITM when they're there for BG. Your responses have put the issue for me to rest -- "it ain't goin' to happen."
We just got back from Montana, and there were just enough people. And the dried cherries were delicious!
I agree with what's said above about BG and ITM not mixing. But I've heard a Bluegrass band with a really good Irish flute player. It sounded a lot better than I would have expected, and the player must have great chops to be able to keep up. Never heard the name of the band though.
“There's a very delicate balance between merging two different kinds of music. In the end, it's not likely to sound like something that real fans of either music really like, but if that balance is nailed just right, it might sound good to someone else...”
Yes! Somebody might enjoy it and there’s nothing wrong with that. And that’s partly why I try to avoid criticizing folks for taking my favorite music into directions that I personally don’t like. Sometimes it’s hard, though.
And thanks to Merry-H for elaborating on those misconceptions. If you could somehow remove all the Irish genetic material from bluegrass music, most BG fans would never notice the difference. And the core of Appalachian old-time is largely independent of ITM, their common ancestry being mostly from three hundred years ago.
A couple of decades ago, Gerald Trimble put out an album with some tunes explicitly aimed at bringing bluegrass-style improv into Irish and Scottish tunes. The playing was excellent, but it was, ultimately, oil and water.
I am all for mixing different musical genres if one is not sacrificed for the other. Neither Irish or bluegrass is at its best during some of the crossover tunes ~ they do not always bring out the magic. I would love to find a session where bluegrass & Irish "successfully" combine. Our local musicians tend to be guarded of their 'roots'. Opinions & egos are in abundant supply.
I am grateful for musicians like Tim O'Brien. He is able to show respect for both bluegrass & Irish traditions. I believe if I were to met a bluegrass player who listens to someone like Seamus Ennis then there are possibilities.
Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
A couple years ago there was a discussion about ITM tunes that crossover into bluegrass (see http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6441/comments#comment137391). As a follow-up extension of this topic, I'm wondering if any of you mix bluegrass and ITM tunes in the groups in which you play (not necessarily sessions)? How do you combine the two or do you separate the two when you play them? What tune sets go together? In what order to you present the tunes so the excitement of the music builds? Obviously, groups have done this successfully before: the Chieftains, for example, and Ricky Skaggs, who has put a Celtic flavor into a couple of his songs/instrumentals. Are any of you doing this now? If so, what sets have you put together? Have any of you tried this and given up?
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by FiddleCrazy
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Interesting, I was just at a (fantastic!) bluegrass festival this weekend, and ran across one impromptu session of Irish-type musicians---there was a fiddle, mandolin, tin whistle, bodhran, and guitar. They didn't mix tunes so much as they played the Irish tunes bluegrass-style---round the circle, each instrument played the tune while the rest played rhythm---it sounded okay but a little odd too because there was no creative improv from the soloing instruments like you would expect in bluegrass, but it took a long time to get through a tune because each instrument had to have a turn, which kind of sapped it of the energy you usually hear in Irish music. And that was just for each tune. A whole set would have taken a long time!
I know there are professional musicians who combine the styles successfully---I just got the impression that it's not as easy as you might think to do it in an informal setting.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I've always found it impossible to combine Irish and American tunes - or, for that matter, even Irish and Scottish or English, or other Irish! The swing and accentuation is so different that the tunes just can't really flow into one another, you know? It's gotten to the point where I tend to play Sliabh Luachra sets, Sligo sets, Donegal sets, because the intonation and accentuation can make it legitimately tough to transition from one to the next.
--DtM
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Oh, please don't.
That's just my opinion. Do as thou wilt.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
There are a number of tunes that seem to find their way across the traditions (Irish, Scottish, bluegrass, old time...)
However, in my experience, problems arise because of this. Irish doesn't sound like bluegrass, and that fact is lost on a lot of players. If I play a Scottish tune, it tends to come out sounding like Irish. If a bluegrass player sits down in an Irish session, they may know the tunes, but it will end up sounding like bluegrass as far as swing, lift, etc.
And that can drag a session down.
So I'll second SWFL Fiddler's vote: "please don't"
Pete
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I will third the motion.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I started with Old TIme fiddle which has some shared tunes with Irish, but even those are played quite a bit differently. And, as mentioned already, the lilt and swing in Irish music doesn't exist in the Old Time world, so I can't imagine it working too well with Bluegrass either.
I don't think I could ever be a big fan, but to each his own. I'm with the 3 before me. I'm reminded of an anti-drug campaign in the states "Just say NO".
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by nofrets
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Fourth.
I was recently at a neighborhood BBQ where a bunch of bluegrass musicians played to amuse the folks. They were good at bluegrass, but when they strayed across into Celtic they kept to the bluegrass style and the results were tooth-gritting. I've seen that go the other way, too; trad players mangling bluegrass idioms. I think they're just too different to marry well.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by sara g
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
On the other hand, I was at an Irish session not long ago (led by one of the best fiddlers in town) and this bluegrass fiddler sat in for an hour or so and mostly played along quietly...but then he started playing harmony on a few tunes, the way he would have improvised in a bluegrass jam, and it sounded terrific. They had obviously played together before and knew each other's styles, though, so again, I suspect it takes a lot of experience and skill to make it sound halfway decent.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Once in a blue moon at our session, we toss in a set of tunes in a bluegrass or old timey style. But we don't mix them in a set with Irish tunes. The pulse is too different.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
It also makes a difference that several of us have played (some professionally) for many years in all three of those genres. So we know precisely how to shift gears from one idiom to the next.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
A lot of the responses in this thread may have to do with the level of competency heard with each music. It is very likely that you have not heard musicians who share the same level of musicianship with each genera.
In our session if there is an old time tune played (and OT and bluegrass are as different as Scottish and Irish music, at least so we don't play BG) it is usually coupled with other old time tunes with the exception of "Wind That Shakes The Barley" which for some reason which seems to go well with "Soldier's Joy."
It is rare to find musicians who can play both genera well and it is awful to hear someone play one well and botch up the other. It's even worse to find players who botch both and insist on playing anyway. (There are very few musicians who can play BG competently but there are a lot of pretenders out there.)
But there are musicians who are capable of playing in more than one style and when that happens, the result can be very enjoyable. Too bad there are so few who can do so (Bruce Molsky is one.)
OT and Irish have more in common than BG and Irish. In fact, BG music (i.e the music of Bill Monroe and descendants) is not very much like Irish or Scottish music at all since it is partially blues based, has a back beat, and is a commercial concert style of music. Old Time music, on the other hand, is dance music, played ensemble, and repeated far more times than would be accepted in a session. OT shares a number of tunes and has a lot of the cultural values of a session, too.
I agree that BG musicians have a hard time hearing Irish music (and vice versa) but if an effort is made, the twain can meet. I just think a lot of you have never heard those musicians who can do that well <G>
Mike Keyes
http:www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I play celtic music. I recently moved in Alberta, for studying and my roommate got inspired by my playing and took up the 5 strings banjo 3 years ago. No need to remind me I am crazy to let him take up this instrument ; ). But he likes bluegrass and I personally think bluegrass is cool. So I took up some bluegrass. So we started a little band who plays a mix of both. But It is hard to mix both music, we do a set mostly bluegrass and then a set mostly celtic. The beat is so different.
It is like a culture, or language. You can speak a language using the wording of another language and people might understand you, but the spirit, ambiance, nuances will just not sound right. It takes lot of practices to learn the particularities of another language.
I am totally against this mix in session!
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Carabus
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I have never smoked "Blue" grass, so have no opinion on the matter.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I think that you can put Irish into Bluegrass but you can't put Bluegrass into Irish.
The former is how it probably happened historically anyway.
Also there would be certain types of tunes that would work as bluegrass eg. Teetotaller Reel (the G to Em one) . You'd have to dig for them I reckon because there'd only be a certain percentage say of reels that work.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
There is no mixing oil and water. I hear people say there are common tunes????? I cant think of one. People often have a misunderstanding of bluegrass... it is music that developed in the 1940's based largely on the original songwriting of Bill Monroe and the Stanley Brothers. You may ask... what about the fiddle tunes? Bill Monroes music was more fiddled based than anyone elses but the instrumentals they played were mainly his compositions... some of them have a hint of "celtic" modality to them, but they are very different. Old-Time is a very different type of music altogther... and also in its current state has little to do with irish music. I know Im taking up space with this but look at the the top 30 bluegrass ongs (that could also include instrumentals---tunes)----- They are all original songs by modern writers.... Yea, but what about Ricky Skaggs and the Chiftans and down the old plank road and all of that???? Some of those tunes arent normally even played by bluegrass bands... Check out the top 30 and tell me what bluegrass has to do with irish or even trad. music....
01 SADIE'S GOT HER NEW DRESS ON
Writer: (Connie Leigh)
Album: MORE BEHIND THE PICTURE THAN THE WALL
Label: Rounder (#0588) DOYLE LAWSON & QUICKSILVER
02 RITA MAE
Writer: (Connie Leigh)
Album: CATCH TOMORROW
Label: Compass (#4445) DALE ANN BRADLEY
03 PILL OR POTION
Writer: (Russell Johnson)
Album: HOME TO CAROLINA
Label: NewTime (#1009) GRASS CATS
04 YOUR EYES
Writer: (Laurie Lewis)
Album: THE GOLDEN WEST
Label: Hightone (#8194) LAURIE LEWIS & THE RIGHT HANDS
05 ROCKWELL'S GOLD
Writer: (R. Kohrs, D. Goodwin, A. Brown)
Album: OLD PHOTOGRAPH
Label: Rural Rhythm (#1030) RANDY KOHRS
06 LEFTY'S OLD GUITAR
Writer: (Dave Maggard, Jack Spencer)
Album: LEFTY'S OLD GUITAR
Label: Rounder (#0512) J.D. CROWE & THE NEW SOUTH
07 FORK IN THE ROAD
Writer: (Chris Jones, John Pennell)
Album: FORK IN THE ROAD
Label: Sugar Hill (#4021) INFAMOUS STRINGDUSTERS
08 SAWING ON THE STRINGS
Writer: (Lewis Compton)
Album: A HUNDRED MILES OR MORE: A COLLECTION
Label: Rounder (#0555) ALISON KRAUSS
09 COLD BLUE DAY
Writer: (Tim Stafford)
Album: LIFE IN A SONG
Label: Rounder (#0576) NEWFOUND ROAD
10 DOWN THE TRAIL OF ACHING HEARTS
Writer: (Jimmy Kennedy, Nat Simon)
Album: THE TRAIL OF ACHING HEARTS
Label: Pinecastle (#1156) SPECIAL CONSENSUS
11 LIVIN' IT DOWN
Writer: (Elmer Burchett, Jr., Danny Barnes)
Album: SOUNDS LIKE HOME
Label: Lonesome Day (#010) STEVE GULLEY
12 POWDERFINGER
Writer: (Neil Young)
Album: LET THE RIDE BEGIN
Label: Pinecastle (#1154) CIRCUIT RIDERS
13 THE LAST SUIT YOU WEAR
Writer: (L. Shell, L. Williams, K. Williams)
Album: THE LAST SUIT YOU WEAR
Label: McCoury Music (#0004) LARRY SPARKS
14 LONESOME WON'T GET THE BEST OF ME
Writer: (J. Salley, J. Johnson, C. Stefl)
Album: THE ROAD WITH NO END
Label: Mountain Home (#10992) LONESOME RIVER BAND
15 THAT'S HOW THE COOKIE CRUMBLES
Writer: (Jim Lauderdale)
Album: SITTIN' ON TOP OF THE WORLD
Label: Pinecastle (#1157) JACK COOKE
16 IN MY HOUR OF DARKNESS
Writer: (Gram Parsons, Emmylou Harris)
Album: SLIDIN' HOME
Label: Rebel (#1820) JOHN STARLING & CAROLINA STAR
17 LONG LIST OF HEARTACHES
Writer: (J. Johnson, M. Lindsey, R. Wayland)
Album: LONG LIST OF HEARTACHES
Label: Rounder (#0583) GRASCALS
18 THE OLD COAL MINE
Writer: (Mark Brinkman)
Album: THE LAST SUIT YOU WEAR
Label: McCoury Music (#0004) LARRY SPARKS
19 GOING ON THE NEXT TRAIN
Writer: (Jennifer Strickland)
Album: CARRIE HASSLER AND HARD RAIN
Label: Rural Rhythm (#1028) CARRIE HASSLER AND HARD RAIN
20 BOTTOM OF A GLASS
Writer: (Donna Hughes)
Album: GAINING WISDOM
Label: Rounder (#0554) DONNA HUGHES
21 HILLBILLY HEMINGWAY
Writer: (Mike Ward, Tommy Meece, Carl Jackson)
Album: HILLBILLY HEMINGWAY
Label: Rebel (#1819) MARK NEWTON BAND
22 IF IT WEREN'T FOR BLUEGRASS MUSIC, I'D GO CRAZY
Writer: (Tommy Webb)
Album: EASTERN KENTUCKY
Label: Kindred Records (#47186) TOMMY WEBB
23 DIXIE FLYER
Writer: (Susan Longacre, Jim Photoglo, Russell Smith)
Album: THE ROAD HEADIN' HOME
Label: Pinecastle (#1158) GRASSTOWNE
24 BORN LONESOME
Writer: (Bryan Simpson)
Album: BLIND MAN WALKING
Label: Skaggs Family (#172) CADILLAC SKY
25 POOR BOY'S DELIGHT
Writer: (Benny Galloway)
Album: FORK IN THE ROAD
Label: Sugar Hill (#4021) INFAMOUS STRINGDUSTERS
26 CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?
Writer: (T. Hall, D. Hall, J. Williams)
Album: MORE BEHIND THE PICTURE THAN THE WALL
Label: Rounder (#0588) DOYLE LAWSON & QUICKSILVER
27 THE CROW
Writer: (Stephen Glenn Martin)
Album: DOUBLE BANJO BLUEGRASS SPECTACULAR
Label: Rounder (#0548) TONY TRISCHKA WITH STEVE MARTIN
28 YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT LOVE IS
Writer: (Cia Cherryholmes)
Album: CHERRYHOLMES II: BLACK AND WHITE
Label: Skaggs Family (#182) CHERRYHOLMES
29 LOVIN' PRETTY WOMEN
Writer: (Graham Sharp)
Album: LOVIN' PRETTY WOMEN
Label: Rebel (#1824) STEEP CANYON RANGERS
30 CAROLINA ROAD
Writer: (Tom T. Hall, Dixie Hall)
Album: CAROLINA ROAD
Label: Blue Circle (#006)
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Sean MacOda Criobhan
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Outside of the aforementioned Ricky Skaggs, I have never heard an Old Timey or Bluegrasser mesh well with Irish music. Living in the American Southwest we get the occasional Bluegrass fiddler who stops into one of our local sessions. Usually, they haven't the faintest notion of ITM. We may share a few crossover tunes - Ashokan Farewell, Soldier's Joy, etc. But the similarities end there. They are simply not used to playing within the stylistically rigid confines of a contemporary Irish session, and usually muck it up. With out fail, at some point somebody turns to the bluegrasser and says "It's not a jam session bro, if you don't know the tune , please don't play."
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Although I play both ITM and BG, I don't really mix them, mostly for the reasons stated above. I will say, however, that Kevin Burke's version of Bill Monroe's terrific tune "Jerusalem Ridge" (between Shepherd's Daughter and another reel on the album he did with the hamonica players) sure seems to fit in the tradition.
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Jameson Stew
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Tim O'Brien's band "The Crossing" did this about as well as I've ever heard it done. It didn't sound bad at all, but honestly, I think it's pretty difficult to get it right. I've heard dozens of others try, and it usually sounds like a half-baked version of one or the other...
There's a very delicate balance between merging two different kinds of music. In the end, it's not likely to sound like something that real fans of either music really like, but if that balance is nailed just right, it might sound good to someone else...
For the record, I've heard it done wrong more often than right...
# Posted on September 5th 2007 by Georgi
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I seem to have struck a chord...shoulda played the tune instead. That was awful, sorry.
The real issue here is with the word: "noodling"
At an Irish music session, it means to play along only when you know the exact tune and to be silent and listen when you don't, or at least play inaudibly, if possible.
At a Bluegrass session it appears to mean playing notes that aren't the tune.
Disclaimer: Old Timey ain't bad. There are plenty of grand old American fiddle tunes, many related to Irish tunes that immigrated as well as their players. There are even regional styles of American and Canadian fiddling, of course.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
The typical instrumentation of the two styles don't even match. How's this supposed to work?
It takes seasoned musicians that understand both styles across the board to be able to mix the two within a single group. Every instrument plays completely different in each of the two styles if the instrument appears in both at all. It only takes one player that doesn't understand the differences to turn the whole affair into an impromptu experiment.
There are other fundamental issues. The recent topic on trying to play bass in a session touched on several. ITM is driven the melody, the melody instruments define the rhythmic pulse of the tune. ITM has "lift". Bluegrass and other similar styles are driven by the chord changes and the rhythm section. The bass and the guitar player set the foundation. Instead of "lift" Bluegrass has "drive". Many players of traditional/folk music do not understand technically what gives melody its lift, or a rhythm section its drive. They typically find it by accident after years of repetition listening to those that can produce it. Most can't even read standard notation or, God forbid, count the beats in a bar. (Not to say that can't produce some wonderful music, they just don't need to have this kind of background.) Asking them to switch between the two is typically going to give you a train wreck. If freaky hybrids are you're thing, have at it.
If you are personally motivated to learn to play both styles, then you'll probably be better off playing in two different bands rather than trying to coerce a band centered on one style to play in another.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by monkey440
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Well said "Eejit"!
Im not against anyone playing the 2 different styles of music... theres just a lot of misconception about what bluegrass is... I used to play it semi-pro and I was and am amazed at the people (musicians) who thought they were/are playing "ancient" music... also there is a misconception that "if you can play bluegrass... you can play anything...." Its just not true.
Tim Obrien's Crossings cd really isnt very bluegrassy... ever since he left "Hotrize" he has leaned towards older trad. styles with his CDs...
In his live shows... at least the ones Ive seen and Ive seen many... and even played the same festival with him once or twice, it's alot more bluegrassy than his CDs.... Overall, Id say he is a bluegrass musician who can play different styles and "gets it," but the Crossing is definitely not a CD bluegrass fans are listening to. (see my top 30)
One thing thats easy to do is to lump all American trad. music into the "bluegrass" category.... that's just not accurate. We shouldnt forget that the USA does have Irish music traditions that dont have anything to do with bluegrass or old time.... some of these traditions are well known "city" traditions like New York and Chicago... but Irish music is and has been a part of rural American areas as well like the Mid Atlantic Appalachian area, Pennsylvania (see some of my tune submissions), Montana http://www.butteamerica.com/birish.htm), and Im sure there are other "pockets."
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Sean MacOda Criobhan
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Funny, Butte had the Irish when it was in its mining hayday, but hardly anyone there plays now, despite a healthy Irish heritage among the locals. John "The Yank" Harrington was a Butte box player till the day he died (RIP), and he pretty much carried the music on his own. Now it's up to Mick Cavanaugh and Tom Powers, with Cindy Powers keeping the dance alive. At one point, the surrounding county had the highest per capita Irish ethnicity of any place in America.
Bozeman and Helena MT have vibrant, well-rounded Irish sessions. (Helena still has a strong Irish-American population and a beautiful catholic cathedral). But the rest of Montana is fairly thin for Irish music, although there have been sessions in the Bitterroot Valley, up by Libby, and over in Billings.
I played 5-string banjo in a bluegrass band up and down the East coast and Appalachians USA for 10 years (many years ago). I was also learning Irish trad fiddle at the time. It definitely takes an understanding of both (very different) genres to play them well, and to hear where a tune might be slanted the other way. But it's definitely a difference of trad vs. blues-derived improv, and the two just don't blend well for me.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Isnt the rest of Montana just plain thin for people? (lol) John the Yank... I was thinking about him when I wrote that post! One of the last paid bluegrass shows I did was in Helena. I love Montana and tried to to talk my wife into moving there... which she almost considered since shes from Bismarck ND.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Sean MacOda Criobhan
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
cheshire said----" But it's definitely a difference of trad vs. blues-derived improv, and the two just don't blend well for me."
That's hitting the nail on the head.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Sean MacOda Criobhan
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
This was another good discussion on the differences: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7733/
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
Thanks for all of your responses. This discussion has confirmed my thoughts that the two types of music should, for the most part, be kept separate. I enjoy both types of music and both types of sessions, but, as stated above, it is extremely difficult to be good at both and, as one person said, "you can't mix oil and water." I was asked to play some Irish in a bluegrass band and had major reservations about it for some of the reasons you've all pointed out. I didn't understand how the two would be combined and didn't envision the BG people playing ITM without an understanding of the music or the BG audience sitting through ITM when they're there for BG. Your responses have put the issue for me to rest -- "it ain't goin' to happen."
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by FiddleCrazy
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
We just got back from Montana, and there were just enough people. And the dried cherries were delicious!
I agree with what's said above about BG and ITM not mixing. But I've heard a Bluegrass band with a really good Irish flute player. It sounded a lot better than I would have expected, and the player must have great chops to be able to keep up. Never heard the name of the band though.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Gzeg
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
"Just enough people" Agreed. A welcome respite from Calgary's boom, eh?
Next time swing into Riley's pub in Helena, any Thursday night. We always keep a seat open.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
“There's a very delicate balance between merging two different kinds of music. In the end, it's not likely to sound like something that real fans of either music really like, but if that balance is nailed just right, it might sound good to someone else...”
Yes! Somebody might enjoy it and there’s nothing wrong with that. And that’s partly why I try to avoid criticizing folks for taking my favorite music into directions that I personally don’t like. Sometimes it’s hard, though.
And thanks to Merry-H for elaborating on those misconceptions. If you could somehow remove all the Irish genetic material from bluegrass music, most BG fans would never notice the difference. And the core of Appalachian old-time is largely independent of ITM, their common ancestry being mostly from three hundred years ago.
A couple of decades ago, Gerald Trimble put out an album with some tunes explicitly aimed at bringing bluegrass-style improv into Irish and Scottish tunes. The playing was excellent, but it was, ultimately, oil and water.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I am all for mixing different musical genres if one is not sacrificed for the other. Neither Irish or bluegrass is at its best during some of the crossover tunes ~ they do not always bring out the magic. I would love to find a session where bluegrass & Irish "successfully" combine. Our local musicians tend to be guarded of their 'roots'. Opinions & egos are in abundant supply.
I am grateful for musicians like Tim O'Brien. He is able to show respect for both bluegrass & Irish traditions. I believe if I were to met a bluegrass player who listens to someone like Seamus Ennis then there are possibilities.
# Posted on September 6th 2007 by Random_notes
Re: Mixing Bluegrass and ITM
I can think of two tunes my band does that are ITM but sound like bluegrass. "The Hills of Connemara" and "Real Old Mountain Dew".
# Posted on September 8th 2007 by Pirate-Fiddler