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Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
A report on the BBC today confirms what we all knew - rock stars have a shorter life span: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6976583.stm
(I couldn't access the relevant publication in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health - maybe someone else could try.)
So, does this extend to traditional music 'stars' or even yer run of the mill session players? Personally, I think playing the music is life-affirming and thus possibly even life-extending. I doubt if any proper epidemiological study has ever been undertaken though. Views, news, screws?
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Danny, I agree with you about the positive aspects of playing traditional music. Unfortunately, because the music is more often than not, played in a socialable location where drink's available, drinking more than may be wise to do so, is very common - with an eventual and inevitable toll on health.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
A shorter life span, but they probably enjoy it more not having to agonise over purity, the harmonisation of traditional music, shaky eggs, how many bodhran players can fit in a revolving door, is Tony MacMahon's beard real, should the Ballynahascragh ceili band have got second place in the Carlow fleadh in 1983, how many rolls should you put in the Kesh jig, B/C or C#/D, can you teach traditional music in a university, is a session a performance, is the World Fleadh a Fleadh, trad. arr., free pints, etc etc.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
I have the September issue of that journal in front of me, and I can't spot the relevant article. However, drugs and alcohol apart, tradiitonal musicians do have one thing in common with their rock counterparts - lack of sleep.
It's only my hunch, but I do feel that regularly staying up until the small hours (even if you *are* enjoying yourself) isn't the best way to ensure a healthy old age...
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
You must be feeling your age! But the good news is - looking at the 'lads' of 80+ that I was playing with last night, you may have little to fear. If I'm as healthy as they are and can play as well and if I can stay the course that long, I'll be doing OK and so will you.
Anyway, brain activities like playing music are supposed to be good for keeping the neural pathways in good order etc. etc. - might keep the dementia at bay??
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
I went to the report, and of course Elvis is at the top of the list, his death blamed on drugs. Just to put the record straight, whatever the cause for anyone else, Elvis Presley died of..............constipation.
I'm sure someone else can point us at his autopsy report, but basically his ruinous diet of excessive amounts of fatty processed food lead to serious problems down below, leaving his large bowel full of a glutinous mass of material, and when you constrict your abdomen severely it collapses the Posterior Vena Cava, the major blood vessel returning blood to the heart from the abdomen and legs, 60% of the body's blood volume. In extreme cases the heart can't cope, hence a heart attack. Of course the abdomen immediately relaxes, leaving no trace of the cause. This is why many old people are found dead on the thunderbox.
They didn't mention other reasons for early death, did they ? Flying in light aircraft ( Buddy Holly et al.) driving fast cars ( Eddie Cochran, Marc Bolan, et al.) being shot, etc..
It's a dangerous world, let's all be careful out there.
Better stay in the pub and play sone diddley-dee.
Any chance of turning this thread in this direction - greatest trad deaths ever?
(Nomination no. 1: The W**** F*****).
(Nomination no. 2: Larry Murphy's Government Report - not so much a death mind you as stillborn).
(Nomination no.3: a certain trad. programme broadcast some years ago - the presenter seemed to die on their feet every week...)
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Well - I had tunes recently with a fiddler from Fermanagh, Paddy Flannagan, who just turned 94 and he is playing away to his heart's content still.
Indeed, at Derrygonnelly last year, when he was a mere 93 he pointed out two of his classmates from primary school standing at the bar enjoying the tunes!!
A lot of musicians around this part of the country are playing well into their 70's and 80's - so I would suggest that's a serious recommendation to play to the wee hours, and drink your fill to tunes, songs and lies.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Seems like many trad musicians that pass before their time can have bizarre circumstance surrounding their demise. Take the tragic story of piping great, Johnny Doran who died at the age of 43:
On January 30, 1948, Doran's caravan was parked on waste ground near Back Lane in Dublin's Cornmarket area. It was very windy, and a brick wall collapsed, falling on to the caravan, and also on Johnny who was outside at the time, lacing up his shoes. Johnny was completely covered by bricks and rubble. Johnny's lower back was injured during the rescue process as he was pulled free from the debris (according to one of his daughters). Johnny was afterwards paralysed from the waist down. His injuries led to continuing ill health and he died on January 9, 1950 in Athy, Co. Kildare. He is buried in Rathnew cemetery
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Not to discount the tobacco fog swirling over the pints for time immemorial. Until now. I surely don't miss playing with blurry, burning eyes and ever-blackening lungs.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
From my extensive reading of www.thesession.org I have determined that old trad musicians are in ABUNDANCE, therefore, the life expentancy of said musicians is seriously freaking long, man, no matter how many pints you have or how late you stay up. Party on lads.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
The good thing about playing ITM, the older you get the more respect your playing gets. Even though your playing might be getting a bit ropey, people are still inclined to admire the fact that you are still knocking out the tunes.. The same applies to Jazz Musicians, great respect for the old guys. Poor rockers, once you hit the thirties you are referred to as 'an ageing rocker' Just look at the slagging that the Stones get. Looking at a list of 48 Rockers who died young, I notice that 12 died of drugs. 6 in various crashes, 5 were shot, and there were a few suicides as well. I've never heard of any ITM musicians dying from drugs (fags excluded) or been shot over the past fifty years.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
"the older you get the more respect your playing gets" -
hope for me yet!
Many classical musicians I've known enjoy longevity, playing well into old age. Two ladies in my chamber orchestra, one a violinist and the other a cellist, decided to retire in their 90's. Two other violinists and a violist died in their 80's, still in harness. Both my cello teachers died well in their 80's. The list goes on ...
Unfortunately, playing expertise in old age isn't recognised by local education authorities where I live. Two fine music teachers running local and regional youth orchestras were forced to retire when they reached the magic age of 60, thus depriving hundreds of children of a wealth of experience, knowledge and leadership - the sort of thing that comes with age and is difficult to find in the younger generation. Those two teachers continued conducting other amateur orchestras and teaching privately well into old age.
There aren't all that many older Irish trad musicians in my area, presumably for demographic reasons. I'm among of the older ones - but a late start means I'm still acquiring that all-important experience.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Oh, my, this thread has sent me back to the days when I worked as a strategist in the NHS and could reel off on demand epidemiological details relating to death rates by occupation (one that sticks in the mind is the high level of alcohol-related deaths among shunters' mates, but I've never found a use for that information).
From that experience my guess would be that the life expectancy of traditional musicians largely reflects that of the overall population within whichever country they inhabit. However, in relation to Ireland (and the fact that most sessions take place in pubs), there's the caveat that there'd be probably a higher than average rate of death from alcohol-related causes and from smoking-related diseases as well as from late night traffic accidents.
All told then, it's surprising how few well-known Irish musicians have died young (i.e. 20s-50s). Frankie Kennedy, Luke Kelly, Dino Sands, Liam Weldon and Caitlín Maude spring to mind, but I can also think of several who failed to reach pensionable age for various reasons.
As for 'being shot', as Free Reed mentions, I can think of at least two Northern Irish musicians who suffered such a fate (though not for being musicians) and, though they weren't professionally trad musicians, there was also the notorious murder of the Miami Showband.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Peter Horan can still outplay and outdrink most younger musicians at the age of 85. Must be all the fresh air and excercise he gets when he goes out for a cigarette.
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
What I'd like to know is.....who's the Keith Richards of ITM?
i.e. the dude (or chick) who has survived mega abuse over the years and is still plugging away....!
Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
A report on the BBC today confirms what we all knew - rock stars have a shorter life span:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6976583.stm
(I couldn't access the relevant publication in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health - maybe someone else could try.)
So, does this extend to traditional music 'stars' or even yer run of the mill session players? Personally, I think playing the music is life-affirming and thus possibly even life-extending. I doubt if any proper epidemiological study has ever been undertaken though. Views, news, screws?
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Danny, I agree with you about the positive aspects of playing traditional music. Unfortunately, because the music is more often than not, played in a socialable location where drink's available, drinking more than may be wise to do so, is very common - with an eventual and inevitable toll on health.
OK MacKay, it's your round
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by Ron P
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
A shorter life span, but they probably enjoy it more not having to agonise over purity, the harmonisation of traditional music, shaky eggs, how many bodhran players can fit in a revolving door, is Tony MacMahon's beard real, should the Ballynahascragh ceili band have got second place in the Carlow fleadh in 1983, how many rolls should you put in the Kesh jig, B/C or C#/D, can you teach traditional music in a university, is a session a performance, is the World Fleadh a Fleadh, trad. arr., free pints, etc etc.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by continuo
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
There must be an actuary or two on the site- they could tell us.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by P-K
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
I have the September issue of that journal in front of me, and I can't spot the relevant article. However, drugs and alcohol apart, tradiitonal musicians do have one thing in common with their rock counterparts - lack of sleep.
It's only my hunch, but I do feel that regularly staying up until the small hours (even if you *are* enjoying yourself) isn't the best way to ensure a healthy old age...
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by DavyR
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
You must be feeling your age! But the good news is - looking at the 'lads' of 80+ that I was playing with last night, you may have little to fear. If I'm as healthy as they are and can play as well and if I can stay the course that long, I'll be doing OK and so will you.
Anyway, brain activities like playing music are supposed to be good for keeping the neural pathways in good order etc. etc. - might keep the dementia at bay??
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
sex, drugs and diddle-dee!!!!
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by iwerzon
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
I went to the report, and of course Elvis is at the top of the list, his death blamed on drugs. Just to put the record straight, whatever the cause for anyone else, Elvis Presley died of..............constipation.
I'm sure someone else can point us at his autopsy report, but basically his ruinous diet of excessive amounts of fatty processed food lead to serious problems down below, leaving his large bowel full of a glutinous mass of material, and when you constrict your abdomen severely it collapses the Posterior Vena Cava, the major blood vessel returning blood to the heart from the abdomen and legs, 60% of the body's blood volume. In extreme cases the heart can't cope, hence a heart attack. Of course the abdomen immediately relaxes, leaving no trace of the cause. This is why many old people are found dead on the thunderbox.
They didn't mention other reasons for early death, did they ? Flying in light aircraft ( Buddy Holly et al.) driving fast cars ( Eddie Cochran, Marc Bolan, et al.) being shot, etc..
It's a dangerous world, let's all be careful out there.
Better stay in the pub and play sone diddley-dee.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Better still, check out this gem:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2007/08/whats_the_greatest_ever_rock_a.html
Any chance of turning this thread in this direction - greatest trad deaths ever?
(Nomination no. 1: The W**** F*****).
(Nomination no. 2: Larry Murphy's Government Report - not so much a death mind you as stillborn).
(Nomination no.3: a certain trad. programme broadcast some years ago - the presenter seemed to die on their feet every week...)
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by continuo
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Well - I had tunes recently with a fiddler from Fermanagh, Paddy Flannagan, who just turned 94 and he is playing away to his heart's content still.
Indeed, at Derrygonnelly last year, when he was a mere 93 he pointed out two of his classmates from primary school standing at the bar enjoying the tunes!!
A lot of musicians around this part of the country are playing well into their 70's and 80's - so I would suggest that's a serious recommendation to play to the wee hours, and drink your fill to tunes, songs and lies.
Woo Hoo!!
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by breandan
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Seems like many trad musicians that pass before their time can have bizarre circumstance surrounding their demise. Take the tragic story of piping great, Johnny Doran who died at the age of 43:
On January 30, 1948, Doran's caravan was parked on waste ground near Back Lane in Dublin's Cornmarket area. It was very windy, and a brick wall collapsed, falling on to the caravan, and also on Johnny who was outside at the time, lacing up his shoes. Johnny was completely covered by bricks and rubble. Johnny's lower back was injured during the rescue process as he was pulled free from the debris (according to one of his daughters). Johnny was afterwards paralysed from the waist down. His injuries led to continuing ill health and he died on January 9, 1950 in Athy, Co. Kildare. He is buried in Rathnew cemetery
ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Doran
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by RogueFiddler
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
The Galway fiddler Mickey Finn kind of fits the bill here, he's still revered for his craic and reel lifestyle.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by Patkiwi
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Not to discount the tobacco fog swirling over the pints for time immemorial. Until now. I surely don't miss playing with blurry, burning eyes and ever-blackening lungs.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by drone
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
From my extensive reading of www.thesession.org I have determined that old trad musicians are in ABUNDANCE, therefore, the life expentancy of said musicians is seriously freaking long, man, no matter how many pints you have or how late you stay up. Party on lads.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Oh, and lack of sleep makes you fat, too. Nothing to do with the beer intake.
http://www.bris.ac.uk/researchreview/2004/1113989409
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by DavyR
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
The good thing about playing ITM, the older you get the more respect your playing gets. Even though your playing might be getting a bit ropey, people are still inclined to admire the fact that you are still knocking out the tunes.. The same applies to Jazz Musicians, great respect for the old guys. Poor rockers, once you hit the thirties you are referred to as 'an ageing rocker' Just look at the slagging that the Stones get. Looking at a list of 48 Rockers who died young, I notice that 12 died of drugs. 6 in various crashes, 5 were shot, and there were a few suicides as well. I've never heard of any ITM musicians dying from drugs (fags excluded) or been shot over the past fifty years.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by Free Reed
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
"the older you get the more respect your playing gets" -
hope for me yet!
Many classical musicians I've known enjoy longevity, playing well into old age. Two ladies in my chamber orchestra, one a violinist and the other a cellist, decided to retire in their 90's. Two other violinists and a violist died in their 80's, still in harness. Both my cello teachers died well in their 80's. The list goes on ...
Unfortunately, playing expertise in old age isn't recognised by local education authorities where I live. Two fine music teachers running local and regional youth orchestras were forced to retire when they reached the magic age of 60, thus depriving hundreds of children of a wealth of experience, knowledge and leadership - the sort of thing that comes with age and is difficult to find in the younger generation. Those two teachers continued conducting other amateur orchestras and teaching privately well into old age.
There aren't all that many older Irish trad musicians in my area, presumably for demographic reasons. I'm among of the older ones - but a late start means I'm still acquiring that all-important experience.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Oh, my, this thread has sent me back to the days when I worked as a strategist in the NHS and could reel off on demand epidemiological details relating to death rates by occupation (one that sticks in the mind is the high level of alcohol-related deaths among shunters' mates, but I've never found a use for that information).
From that experience my guess would be that the life expectancy of traditional musicians largely reflects that of the overall population within whichever country they inhabit. However, in relation to Ireland (and the fact that most sessions take place in pubs), there's the caveat that there'd be probably a higher than average rate of death from alcohol-related causes and from smoking-related diseases as well as from late night traffic accidents.
All told then, it's surprising how few well-known Irish musicians have died young (i.e. 20s-50s). Frankie Kennedy, Luke Kelly, Dino Sands, Liam Weldon and Caitlín Maude spring to mind, but I can also think of several who failed to reach pensionable age for various reasons.
As for 'being shot', as Free Reed mentions, I can think of at least two Northern Irish musicians who suffered such a fate (though not for being musicians) and, though they weren't professionally trad musicians, there was also the notorious murder of the Miami Showband.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Peter Horan can still outplay and outdrink most younger musicians at the age of 85. Must be all the fresh air and excercise he gets when he goes out for a cigarette.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
MacCruiskeen - I guess the only thing for it then is to ban drinking in pubs. Seems logical to me.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
clare concertina players live long....and prosper.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
What I'd like to know is.....who's the Keith Richards of ITM?
i.e. the dude (or chick) who has survived mega abuse over the years and is still plugging away....!
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by lysaghtm
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
lysaghtm, I can think of one particular musician who'd fit your bill but could not possibly name her/him for legal reasons!
Danny, I just can't see Pioneers' sessions taking off somehow.
Geoff
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
Allegedly it's easier to name the ones that HAVEN'T survived.
# Posted on September 4th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Rock and roll stars die young - what about trad musicians?
I didn't have advance knowledge of this report, honest!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7009927.stm
# Posted on September 24th 2007 by DavyR