does anyone know how to get into the upper registers of a recorder
smoothly without having to blow really hard? I've heard that there are some
fingerings that do this.
ne sequatur, try humming while playing recorder: you can get a really
neat bagpipe-esque effect which sounds nice on slow, meaningful songs like 'the home ruler' and
'mo ghile mear'
Open the thumb-hole a little bit. This causes an upper harmonic to sound. Some notes may need slightly different fingerings from the lower register. You could maybe look at a fingering chart.
Best luck,
Helen
Apologies if this appears twice, my first posting seemed to disappear into the ether…
The upper notes of a recorder do use different fingerings to the lower register. Overblowing won’t work at all on some instruments and will almost certainly be way out of tune and have a pretty awful tone.
Second E up to second A on C-fingering instruments and second A to second D on F-fingering instruments use the same fingering as the corresponding lower notes but with the thumb hole approximately half open, except that for the upper F natural/ B flat you don’t put the right hand little finger down as you do for the lower register.
For notes above that the fingerings are totally different to the lower register, and also depend on whether you are playing a baroque or a renaissance recorder.
(Top C sharp/F sharp is an interesting one – it uses the same fingering as top D/G but you have to stop the recorder bell with your leg. I was once advised ALWAYS to bring the leg up to the recorder rather than the recorder down to the leg, otherwithe thooner or later you loothe your front teeth 8>)
Baroque fingering charts are provided with the better quality plastic/student instruments, such as the Yamaha “woodgrain” baroque trebles and descants, so if you know anyone that has such a recorder, or buy one yourself, you should find what you are looking for. (There aren’t many “German fingering” charts around these days but if you do come across one, ignore it or use it to light a cigar or line the budgie cage with it.)
I’ll see whether I can find a good fingering chart on the internet – if I do, I’ll e-mail you the link.
Hi Micelfife.
Ignore Don, he's a bit of a stick in the mud as regards "traditional" instruments.
I play trad music on recorder and its great for the job, especially if your using a Mic were the volume discrepancy between the lower and upper registers of a whistle can be a right pain in the arse.
Though the fingering is more complicated than for the whistle you have all the chromatic possibilities and an ability to play in any key. As a Tish said the fingering gets a bit "non-intuitive" towards the top end of the second octave and notes above b tricky and a bit harsh (top d can paralyse a fox hound at 200 yards).
Aulos have recently produced a new range of recorders and Descant (I think were supposed to call them Sopranos now) is a very good deal.
I've just bought a Mollenhauer "Dream" soprano, which is a wooden Renaissance style Recorder with Baroque fingering, it's wide bore and string tone make it ideal for trad stuff.
I've just found out they do a Treble (alto) in the same series so I'll be saving up my pennies for one of those.
Hi Brad.
You’re talking out your arse. The fact that you have not encountered them being played traditionally does not mean that it is impossible.
There is a Recorder player of long standing playing in Irish sessions here in Manchester and very good he is too.
It’s not the instrument it's the way that you play it.
You may be able to play and make a pleasant contribution to a session with a recorder, but they aren't part of the tradition and they can't be 'played traditionally' for that reason. I've heard plenty of recorders in sessions, and they sound very nice - but the overall effect is to make the tunes sound more 'baroque' than they otherwise would. And that's the opinion of MY arse.
Hi Zina
Micelfife posted a question about recorders and the first response he got was from Don, who in a most friendly and polite way just writes "No", maybe Don meant to say was "Hi Micelfife can't help you because I don't play the recorder" but I think not.
And you’re accusing ME of bad manners.
Well, English is not my native language, though i do have an MA in Communications in English, but it looked like he asked if someone knew how to play the second octave in a recorder. Don just said no, he didn't. Is that so bad?
Now look at the question: this is a *very* basic question, which is usually answered by scanning the fingering chart which comes with the recorder. Add that to the fact that the recorder is not an instrument which you will hear being used for traditional Irish dance music, even by Lunacy or some of the more modern bands. So this is obviously the wrong forum to ask that question.
So take a very basic RTFM kind of question and ask it in the wrong forum, you're bound to get some interesting answers and very little real help.
Now, that's just my arse talking; the other end is busy with work right now.
Yes, Pied, I *am* accusing you of bad manners. You've crashed around like a bull in a china shop since you've started posting here, and I wish you'd get a clue. Today you've crossed over the line of being civil. I personally don't agree with a great deal of what you've said in the past, but who cares? So far you haven't shown yourself as being worth arguing with. There's plenty of ways to disagree without being unfriendly and unpolite. and you crossed over the line with both Danny and Brad. You owe both of them an apology.
Blah blah blah, Pied if you think recorder fits in well to Irish music I'd have to say that you probably don't know much about Irish music. I am not talking out of my ass, I was just trying to give micelfife fair warning that the recorder won't be welcome. It's not an accepted norm in Irish sessions, outside of Manchester anyway...
Pied is certainly welcome to his opinion, puppy bob, and as far as I'm concerned he's welcome to state it. What is objectionable is that he has been uncivil while doing it. Be Civil is our only rule. If you can't deal with that, don't post.
Not quite right puppy bob. Yes, everyone here *is* entitled to their opinion, but Jeremy asks us to be civil in how we express it. That's his only rule: "Be civil." We've noticed that several previous participants here have vanished after breaking that rule.
Perhaps Pied Piper meant his comments in a lighter tone of voice than they came across, but who can tell? It's one thing to disagree--quite another to say someone is talking out their arse. And from what I can see, Brad said nothing in his post to provoke such a response from PP.
Some of us who've been participating at thesession.org since Jeremy first opened it up are mighty tired of the careless shoot-from-the-hip, dislodge-foot-from-mouth-later approach taken by a few people. So the next time you start to post something insulting, stop and edit before you click send. And the next time someone points out that you're crossing the civility line, please take a moment to reflect on your behavior and whether it's contributing to or detracting from the friendly craic that's at the heart of this site. And if you genuinely don't like being civil, take it somewhere else.
Oh do stop bickering naughty people I don't think anyone's severely out of line really, it's just that PP disagrees very very strongly and that's his way of doing so - I don't think he actually means to insult. I'm not taking sides tho', before anyone has a go at me.
I'd never thought of using the recorder. I like the idea of it actually. I mean: who's to say what's traditional and what's not? I've mentioned before the fact that the bouzouki (for example) is not an Irish traditional instrument in the sense that the pipes are, but Planxty started using a Greek one and their shape transformed over the decades, the neck broadened and the back flattened. Alec Finn always played a Greek one. Now everyone wants to play the Irish flatback, and nobody would bat an eyelid if it were brought into a traditional session.
Now, imagine this scenario. Think of a modern band everyone likes, err, Lunasa let's say. If Lunasa were to start using recorders to great effect on their albums I bet other bands would follow suit to get the same sound after a while. Then after about 30 years or so, nobody would be able to remember a time when most bands *didn't* contain a recorder. ITM music might even spawn its own version of the recorder (maybe a special spit collector attached to the end, or what about "Automatic Ornamentation Devices" - press a special pressure sensitive pad and play long rolls effortlessly!). Okay, maybe not. But you never know!
Having said that I'd probably draw the line at saxophone...
LOL, no, I was speaking in terms of "oneself", not me personally, but sure, why the hell not?
Actually, I played both soprano and alto recorders for a brief time. My cat at the time, Dexter, hated them. He would sit in front of me while I played, meowing ever more piercingly, and then if I kept playing, he'd stand on his hind legs and start trying to hook the recorders out of my mouth. It always worked, I always started laughing, so I guess he knew what he was about.
I learned "Napolean Crossing the Rhine" on the recorder, but that's the only even remotely traditional tune I really knew on them. The rest was all baroque and previous.
I saw a recorder player sit in with the Chieftains once about 20 years ago. He was Galician, if I remember right. He did some Irish tunes and was awesome. It sounded a wee bit odd -- possibly because some of the ornaments come off differently on recorder, or because he did them differently, anyway. But rather wonderful, really.
what about oh so ever untraditional silver flutes? same as the recorder really in terms of untradness but yet is not definitely ok with the authorities to play some tunes on that
I wondered whether recorder was adopted as a traditional Galician instrument. And he may have played the ornaments in more of a Galician interpretation. Any Galicians out there? Are ornaments different in Celto-Galician tradition? Or did I have too much to drink that night....
Come to think of it, he may have been playing a sax.
There may be a good recorder player in Manchester, just the same as the Johnny Carty album clips on Antee-Harmon's thread featured a good sax player, but any time a recorder turns up at my session my heart sinks. And if a sax appeared there would be a mass exodus from the pub.
My stick-in-the-mud empirical observations regarding non-traditional instruments has led me to conclude that bearers of these instruments have not done their homework, ie:
first of all, believing that they should be accepted into a session playing traditional music on traditional instruments,
second, they technically can't play them very well (in a traditional idiom),
third, they have a very limited repertoire and
consequently, their contribution to the session is either close to zero or has a negative value.
I am reporting my conclusions drawn from my observations in as objective a manner as I can. Agree, disagree or ignore, that's how I see it.
I must say I'm still baffled as to what "traditional" means in The Music. For instance, how long have boxes, of various sorts sizes and descriptions, been played in sessions? There must have been a time when the first box was played in a session or at a dance or whatever. So what happened? Did people throw up their hands in horror at this untraditional monstrosity, or did they just accept this new sound and a fresh way of playing and hearing The Music?
There must have been a time when the piano was a much commoner backing instrument than the guitar, so which is now part of The Tradition? Or are both? And if a fiddle is set up and played in the tradition of say 250 years ago then the difference in sound would be noticeable, and would it be "traditional" in today's terms?
The recorder certainly has a history going back centuries and I find it difficult to believe that some of The Music wasn't played on it in the 18th c. on some sort of a regular basis by some musicians. And if The Music was so played on the recorder then doesn't that make the recorder as traditional as any other instrument now used in sessions? To be sure, the recorder doesn't have the same sound as the whistle, but there is a wide variation in the sound of the flute, and indeed of whistles, and no two fiddles sound the same. Personally, I find the occasional sound of the recorder in a session, played well, a refreshing change from the whistle and the flute - and no disrespect whatsoever to those fine instruments or the people who play them!
Didn't someone say recently in a discussion something to the effect that the main thing with any out-of-the-ordinary instrument in a session is that the player should be competent, should know well the tunes he plays, and shouldn't hog the dynamics. I think that says it all.
Ah, but yer fergetting the traditional Irish contrariness, Trev. That's all very true. It's also true that in some places that it still wouldn't get you any joy, and you'd still be pariah'ed out of the pub. I think beginners need to know what may happen to them if they blithely walk into a strange session with one idea if there are other dynamics possible.. 'S only fair to warn.
Whenever we have these arguments, I always end up saying the same thing. The tradition has to change slowly to still be traditional, and it does that by having people on all sides of the change/not-change/don't-care argument. The purists have their place, so do the change-at-all-costs adherents, and of course you have to have the who-cares-as-long-as-the-crack-is-good folks.
Well said, the pair of ye's. For a minute I thought ye's meant the dynamics of the instrument (as in the dynamics of the pianoforte), thinking, how d'you manage that on the whistle? - and me been playin' all them decades.
I've probably never heard Irish music played well on the recorder - only enough played badly for me to arrive at the aforementioned conclusion.
And yeah zeen, yer 2nd paragraph - it must be a generational thing, so that as soon as something is out of living memory, or is only remembered by very senior (in age) people, does it become what we call traditional.
I bought a wooden whistle recently by the recorder makers Adler, and was not very impressed. It loses it in the upper register, unless it's been warmed up and all sorts of palava..these days I couldn't be bothered - I just need something to crash out loadsa tunes.
Oh God, Danny, now there's a lovely mental/aural picture...picture Danny, simply crashing out lotsa tunes. Let's see...are we on to dynamics on the whistle? *snort*
Someone smart once told me that there are three possible reactions to change:
1) Adapt to change (ie: change yourself in order to deal with the change, leave the area of change, etc.)
2) Fight the change (ie: attempt to arrest or reverse the change, etc.)
3) Refuse to accomodate the change (die)
Maybe recorders are worrying because when someone turns up with one you think "Why did they bring a recorder and not a whistle or flute?". You know that if they only bring a recorder, it's not because they want to add a new dimension to the the sound of the session, it's because they don't play the whistle. So basically they learned the recorder at school, and now they want to play it in the session. Given that they are not going to have heard a lot of great Irish players, or CDs thereof, playing this instrument, you wonder what their influences are. And that is one reason why recorders are worrying...
Yes, but if that Galician man I was talking about walked into your session, he'd kick your ass, I'm telling you! So then, what if that recorder player could play?
Hmmm - just my opinion but I think the *sound* of the recorder is irritating - even before I played trad - when I learnt it at school I thought it was whiney and weird. Anyhow - who in their right mind would seriously learn tunes on a recorder if they could learn the flute?? PS - If anyone walked into a session I was a with a sax - I would drown my sorrows at the bar
Bb, I agree. Most instruments being learnt by kids at school sound weird and/or whiney, it's part of the learning process. Many kids give up playing long before they leave school but there are a few who persevere and become good or even excellent.
The reason I mention the recorder is that at one of the sessions I go to we have an occasional visitor, a lady who plays the recorder at what I would be inclined to say is a professional level, and she knows a lot of Irish tunes. At this particular session, consisting mainly of fiddles, a guitar/banjo/mandolin (according to how the spirit takes him), and a very good concertina we rarely have a flute or whistle, so a recorder player at her level is very welcome.
does it make a difference if the recorder is wooden or not? i find that i have a reasonable tone when i play that, and have always been accepted in the sessions where i've played it. i don't just play the recorder either - i have a variety of whistles (including a D bass whistle), and i have been known (at this point you'll prob'ly all have heart attack) to play a melodica in an accordion like way with certain tunes. i've never had any bad comments about the tone as i've been playing since i was 4, and have therefore been able to work on that for the last 20 years. does this all make me a musical leper?
You guys learned recorder in school? Wow. We had these weird plastic things with raised bits round the fingerholes to make it easier to cover them. They were, in retrospect, completely horrible, but they certainly did make little kids feel successful at "playing a musical instrument". We also had various noise-making objects like wooden blocks and things that made a musical sounding clunk, or so we thought, which must have been very soothing for the music teacher at 9 am.
My friend Beth is a music teacher at an elementary school. I have enormous respect for her musical stamina.
Thanks for your contributions folks.
All forums need a Bull in a china shop every now and again, and whilst it was not my intention to be the Cheshire cat amongst the Colonial pigeons, it does seem to have sparked a spirited debate, which can't be a bad thing.
To clear up a few points.
1- The phrase “ Ignore Don, he's a bit of a stick in the mud as regards "traditional" instruments" could have been written, " Don't mind Don he's a bit of a stick in the mud as regards "traditional" instruments". Were I come from both these phrases carry the same meaning, namely that Don has strong views about Recorders at Irish sessions so don't take his brusqueness too seriously. It certainly didn't mean ignore every thing that Don says.
2- What is wrong with the following syllogisms?
Classical Violinists don't play in Irish traditional style.
Therefore
It is not possible play traditional Irish music on the Violin.
All the Classical Violinist I've heard cannot play Irish traditional music well.
Therefore
No Classical Violinist can play Irish traditional music well.
None of the Classical violinists I've met play the Banjo.
Therefore
No Classical violinists play the Banjo.
Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
3- The reason some Recorder players don't sound "traditional" is that they play most the notes articulated. Despite a belief to the contrary it is quite possible to play the recorder Legato and use all the traditional ornamentation patterns (plus a few more not possible on the Whistle), slides and finger vibrato.
It's the Ignorance about these facts that annoys me.
I play the Whistle, Recorder, Flute, Highland Pipes, Bombard Guitar, Bodhran, and play regularly at ITM sessions so I actually know what I’m talking about.
I remember those little plastic recorders with the raised finger holes, Zina. They tried to teach us those back in elementary school. They were called "Flute-A-Phones", and they cost your parents about $3.50 each.
I still have vivid memories of our stodgy music teacher trying to lead a class of eight year olds in "Mary Had A Little Lamb", while all the children had a different song in mind (namely "FWEEEEEEETTTT!").
You play an ironing board *instead* of playing at a session, and it's an annoying thing to be doing instead of sleeping or playing, Danny. That work thing, who thought it up? (I make Irish stepdancing dresses for a living and I'm trying to get a last minute dress done for a friend in time for her St. Pat's day shows. I just burned my thumb, too, dammit.)
Bigdave (formerly violadave, which is probably how I'll think of him for the rest of ever, just habit) plays the banjo? Did I know that?
Did you know that? I don't know - I can't read your mind. If I could I wouldn't bother going on the internet.
Burned your thumb? must be difficult to iron and type at the same.
(Sorry - I'm not very sympathetic am I.)
I think he does too. On an international site such as this, different cultural mores aren't much of an excuse, and it still doesn't address the outright insult given Brad.
Be happy you can't read my mind, Danny. I haven't cleaned up in there for, Jeepers Mary and Joseph, a good long while. I check my e-mail, The Session, my other e-mail, and the Irish dressmaker's bb for a break between bits. Applying interlining is one of the the most boring jobs God ever gave man.
Never any time for cleaning with all them horizontal sessions, I suppose.
You'd be glad you can't read mine - you wouldn't believe how anyone could live in something so small - and narrow.
I personally don't like the tone quality of the recorder, at least not in Irish music; Medieval tunes like Orientis Partibus (french, also known as Song of the Ass) sound nice, and are easier to play on recorder than whistle. Unless you have an easier time half-holing than cross fingering.
I think that the cross fingering is often better than half-holing; take away that tone, and I think recorder would be just fine. Hmm...I build whistles/flutes, so that gets the wheels turning...to the spreadsheets!
Tim
I begun to play ITM in the '70s, with a steeleye span vinyl ( or vynil? ), and a wooden recorder.
I don't play the recorder anymore, but I think is possible to play ITM with it.
Is possible make rolls and crans with the recorder in the same way of the whistle.
There are some wooden whistles that plays like a recorder, and there are some wide bore recorders that have a tone very different from the normal & plastic ones.
...I have an idea : why don't you all learn to speak italian?
Hi Tim.
The "song of the Ass", I'm very tempted to atri..... No but I won't.
Actually it’s a lovely tune, and if you play it resolving on A, you can play it on the Whistle without any half holing or cross-fingering. It goes well on Big Pipes.
"Song of the Ass" ?? - is that the one where the guy sticks his finger in his ear and goes "Hee Haw... Hee Haw... Hee Haw.. etc " ? I saw a young singer (Irish) doing this on a TV programme some years ago, taking the p... out of sean-nos singing.
Recorders, eh ...I think the Galician musician referred to above was piper Carlos Nunez. He did a duet with Scottish piper Fred Morrison on a music programme about 3 or 4 years ago,which I still have a tape of. Small-pipes and recorder playing the "Laird Of Drumblair". It was an excellent piece of playing. Many people would say it wasn't good Scottish traditional music, but who cares? I think most of the contributers to this discussion, if not site, would have liked it. I say this as someone who doesn't generally like the sound of recorders, but there are always exceptions.
Scottish band "Capercaillie" had a recorder-player for many of their formative years - Marc Duff, who is also a very good whistle-player. He played the recorder on several of their early recordings, and although I always preferred him on whistle, I have to admit, it worked.
I can't think of any recording of traditional Irish music played on the recorder. Nor have I ever come across one being played in a session in Ireland. I can't help but think if it was worth doing, some-one would have done it by now.
What a brilliant idea Gian! Italian might sound very much like Irish to someone who didn't understand either, and what right has anyonone got to say that singing sean-nos in Italian is not a part of the tradition? I bet if that Mario Lanza turned up at our session, he'd kick our singer's ass!
I believe that there were many 78 records made in Boston in the 1930s, where you can clearly hear the Italian accents coming through (Although even then the regional variations were slurring together, with only 'Sliabh Lucca' still providing a distinct regional style).
AND what about that fiddler Tony De Marco...?
I appreciate all the comments: I've heard all these opinions before.
Responding to some earlier comments . . .
Actually, while I play recorder quite seriously (for a student), and while the great majority of what I
play is Irish, I haven't actually ever heard a bona fide irish band in serious concert (well, one time
that doesn't count), though I will tomorrow, so I guess I don't have the background to judge
'traditional' sound or not. But, I jam with a friend who has a pennywhistle all the time, and though
I still have my 6th grade yamaha plastic recorder/instrument of war, it can sound as soft and sweet as ever, and
it can blend very well- well, I think so. Usually one of us plays the tune while the other improvises a harmony.
This sounds phemonenal playing ta mo chleamhnas.
I've found that playing whistle I use virtually the same
ornamentations that I do on the recorder- but that's 'cause I just started playing recorder on whistle with a little bit of change.
The fingerings work, and so does the thumb stuff- thanks
In general, I think folks should leave their recorders, saxes, tamborines, etc.. at home. I personally would not want to show up at a session and have folks roll their eyes if I were to pull out a recorder. In other aspects of my life, I'm a rebel. But when it comes to sessions, I'm completely respectful and do my best to adhere to the Irish music tradition. Just my humble opinion.
I once had a whistle student who had a degree in recorder performance. I wish I'd concentrated on getting her interested in Irish music rather than trying to "teach" her the tin whistle, because she was a great player. If she'd taken out a recorder at any session I've ever been to, you'd be blown away before you ever had time to think of a witty remark about the appropriateness of recorders. I'll bet they're few and far between though...
I love the recorder and its "natural" repertoire (as opposed to the zillions of non-idiomatic transcriptions aimed at those who see it *only* as a cheap and accessible means to being able to play tunes) and would like to see the day when people think of Michael Grinter, Fred Morgan or Joanne Saunders hand-made, professional instrument as readily as they think of the shockers handed round in schools.
However, I personally wouldn't take one to a session. Regardless of whether or not it "fits" in the tradition (which is not an area I'm "qualified" to comment on), a baroque treble holds its own with other period instruments but is fighting above its weight with modern violin so I can't see it working next to multiple fiddles, steel string guitars, concertinas, etc. Even the wooden flutes used are generally much much louder than baroque flutes. To be heard, I would think you'd need to play descant and sopranino and I don't think that would be a good idea, you might end up playing the end-blown variant of the moravian nose flute, or even two at once in organum.
But then, I wouldn't take any instrument, even my fiddle, to a session anyway until I had "sussed" the session and the regulars out. (I was very good, bb, wasn't I? I left my consort of recorders and my compost of crumhorns and my surfeit of spoons ALL at home in the drawer 8>)
recorders, quirks thereof
recorders, quirks thereof
does anyone know how to get into the upper registers of a recorder
smoothly without having to blow really hard? I've heard that there are some
fingerings that do this.
ne sequatur, try humming while playing recorder: you can get a really
neat bagpipe-esque effect which sounds nice on slow, meaningful songs like 'the home ruler' and
'mo ghile mear'
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by micelfife
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
No
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Open the thumb-hole a little bit. This causes an upper harmonic to sound. Some notes may need slightly different fingerings from the lower register. You could maybe look at a fingering chart.
Best luck,
Helen
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by fiddlefingers
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Apologies if this appears twice, my first posting seemed to disappear into the ether…
The upper notes of a recorder do use different fingerings to the lower register. Overblowing won’t work at all on some instruments and will almost certainly be way out of tune and have a pretty awful tone.
Second E up to second A on C-fingering instruments and second A to second D on F-fingering instruments use the same fingering as the corresponding lower notes but with the thumb hole approximately half open, except that for the upper F natural/ B flat you don’t put the right hand little finger down as you do for the lower register.
For notes above that the fingerings are totally different to the lower register, and also depend on whether you are playing a baroque or a renaissance recorder.
(Top C sharp/F sharp is an interesting one – it uses the same fingering as top D/G but you have to stop the recorder bell with your leg. I was once advised ALWAYS to bring the leg up to the recorder rather than the recorder down to the leg, otherwithe thooner or later you loothe your front teeth 8>)
Baroque fingering charts are provided with the better quality plastic/student instruments, such as the Yamaha “woodgrain” baroque trebles and descants, so if you know anyone that has such a recorder, or buy one yourself, you should find what you are looking for. (There aren’t many “German fingering” charts around these days but if you do come across one, ignore it or use it to light a cigar or line the budgie cage with it.)
I’ll see whether I can find a good fingering chart on the internet – if I do, I’ll e-mail you the link.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Tish
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
There are actually some avante-garde recorder compositions that require the player to sing/hum one part whilst they play another!
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Tish
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Hi Micelfife.
Ignore Don, he's a bit of a stick in the mud as regards "traditional" instruments.
I play trad music on recorder and its great for the job, especially if your using a Mic were the volume discrepancy between the lower and upper registers of a whistle can be a right pain in the arse.
Though the fingering is more complicated than for the whistle you have all the chromatic possibilities and an ability to play in any key. As a Tish said the fingering gets a bit "non-intuitive" towards the top end of the second octave and notes above b tricky and a bit harsh (top d can paralyse a fox hound at 200 yards).
Aulos have recently produced a new range of recorders and Descant (I think were supposed to call them Sopranos now) is a very good deal.
I've just bought a Mollenhauer "Dream" soprano, which is a wooden Renaissance style Recorder with Baroque fingering, it's wide bore and string tone make it ideal for trad stuff.
I've just found out they do a Treble (alto) in the same series so I'll be saving up my pennies for one of those.
All the best
PP
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
No don't ignore Don - get a tin-whistle if you must, but leave the recorder in the drawer. They just don't work for Irish music, period.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Mad Baloney
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Hi Brad.
You’re talking out your arse. The fact that you have not encountered them being played traditionally does not mean that it is impossible.
There is a Recorder player of long standing playing in Irish sessions here in Manchester and very good he is too.
It’s not the instrument it's the way that you play it.
All the best PP
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Pied, telling someone to outright ignore somebody else is just asking for trouble. Get some manners.
Zina
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
You may be able to play and make a pleasant contribution to a session with a recorder, but they aren't part of the tradition and they can't be 'played traditionally' for that reason. I've heard plenty of recorders in sessions, and they sound very nice - but the overall effect is to make the tunes sound more 'baroque' than they otherwise would. And that's the opinion of MY arse.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Ottery
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Hi Zina
Micelfife posted a question about recorders and the first response he got was from Don, who in a most friendly and polite way just writes "No", maybe Don meant to say was "Hi Micelfife can't help you because I don't play the recorder" but I think not.
And you’re accusing ME of bad manners.
All the best PP
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Well, English is not my native language, though i do have an MA in Communications in English, but it looked like he asked if someone knew how to play the second octave in a recorder. Don just said no, he didn't. Is that so bad?
Now look at the question: this is a *very* basic question, which is usually answered by scanning the fingering chart which comes with the recorder. Add that to the fact that the recorder is not an instrument which you will hear being used for traditional Irish dance music, even by Lunacy or some of the more modern bands. So this is obviously the wrong forum to ask that question.
So take a very basic RTFM kind of question and ask it in the wrong forum, you're bound to get some interesting answers and very little real help.
Now, that's just my arse talking; the other end is busy with work right now.
All the best GMPR
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by glauber
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Yes, Pied, I *am* accusing you of bad manners. You've crashed around like a bull in a china shop since you've started posting here, and I wish you'd get a clue. Today you've crossed over the line of being civil. I personally don't agree with a great deal of what you've said in the past, but who cares? So far you haven't shown yourself as being worth arguing with. There's plenty of ways to disagree without being unfriendly and unpolite. and you crossed over the line with both Danny and Brad. You owe both of them an apology.
Zina
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Blah blah blah, Pied if you think recorder fits in well to Irish music I'd have to say that you probably don't know much about Irish music. I am not talking out of my ass, I was just trying to give micelfife fair warning that the recorder won't be welcome. It's not an accepted norm in Irish sessions, outside of Manchester anyway...
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Mad Baloney
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Pied is certainly welcome to his opinion, puppy bob, and as far as I'm concerned he's welcome to state it. What is objectionable is that he has been uncivil while doing it. Be Civil is our only rule. If you can't deal with that, don't post.
Zina
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Not quite right puppy bob. Yes, everyone here *is* entitled to their opinion, but Jeremy asks us to be civil in how we express it. That's his only rule: "Be civil." We've noticed that several previous participants here have vanished after breaking that rule.
Perhaps Pied Piper meant his comments in a lighter tone of voice than they came across, but who can tell? It's one thing to disagree--quite another to say someone is talking out their arse. And from what I can see, Brad said nothing in his post to provoke such a response from PP.
Some of us who've been participating at thesession.org since Jeremy first opened it up are mighty tired of the careless shoot-from-the-hip, dislodge-foot-from-mouth-later approach taken by a few people. So the next time you start to post something insulting, stop and edit before you click send. And the next time someone points out that you're crossing the civility line, please take a moment to reflect on your behavior and whether it's contributing to or detracting from the friendly craic that's at the heart of this site. And if you genuinely don't like being civil, take it somewhere else.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Oh do stop bickering naughty people
I don't think anyone's severely out of line really, it's just that PP disagrees very very strongly and that's his way of doing so - I don't think he actually means to insult. I'm not taking sides tho', before anyone has a go at me.
I'd never thought of using the recorder. I like the idea of it actually. I mean: who's to say what's traditional and what's not? I've mentioned before the fact that the bouzouki (for example) is not an Irish traditional instrument in the sense that the pipes are, but Planxty started using a Greek one and their shape transformed over the decades, the neck broadened and the back flattened. Alec Finn always played a Greek one. Now everyone wants to play the Irish flatback, and nobody would bat an eyelid if it were brought into a traditional session.
Now, imagine this scenario. Think of a modern band everyone likes, err, Lunasa let's say. If Lunasa were to start using recorders to great effect on their albums I bet other bands would follow suit to get the same sound after a while. Then after about 30 years or so, nobody would be able to remember a time when most bands *didn't* contain a recorder. ITM music might even spawn its own version of the recorder (maybe a special spit collector attached to the end, or what about "Automatic Ornamentation Devices" - press a special pressure sensitive pad and play long rolls effortlessly!). Okay, maybe not. But you never know!
Having said that I'd probably draw the line at saxophone...
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Dow
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
You mean the time-honored rule of "It's all right so long as it's me doing it", Mark? ;)
zls
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
"Me" as in "you" you mean? Zina, I'd love to hear you play the recorder
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Dow
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
LOL, no, I was speaking in terms of "oneself", not me personally, but sure, why the hell not?
Actually, I played both soprano and alto recorders for a brief time. My cat at the time, Dexter, hated them. He would sit in front of me while I played, meowing ever more piercingly, and then if I kept playing, he'd stand on his hind legs and start trying to hook the recorders out of my mouth. It always worked, I always started laughing, so I guess he knew what he was about.
I learned "Napolean Crossing the Rhine" on the recorder, but that's the only even remotely traditional tune I really knew on them. The rest was all baroque and previous.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I saw a recorder player sit in with the Chieftains once about 20 years ago. He was Galician, if I remember right. He did some Irish tunes and was awesome. It sounded a wee bit odd -- possibly because some of the ornaments come off differently on recorder, or because he did them differently, anyway. But rather wonderful, really.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Ahh it's all coming out now Zina. Bring it along in August. I want to hear you play "Napoleon Crossing The Rhine".
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Dow
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
what about oh so ever untraditional silver flutes? same as the recorder really in terms of untradness but yet is not definitely ok with the authorities to play some tunes on that
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by timo
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I wondered whether recorder was adopted as a traditional Galician instrument. And he may have played the ornaments in more of a Galician interpretation. Any Galicians out there? Are ornaments different in Celto-Galician tradition? Or did I have too much to drink that night....
Come to think of it, he may have been playing a sax.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Hi, Just thought I'd look in - not bad mileage for two letters, ehh?
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Danny, I saw your post, I composed a brilliant, responsorial "no" in my head and went to add it to your list, only to find it spirited away.
Cool.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
It' easy - just say "no"....
There may be a good recorder player in Manchester, just the same as the Johnny Carty album clips on Antee-Harmon's thread featured a good sax player, but any time a recorder turns up at my session my heart sinks. And if a sax appeared there would be a mass exodus from the pub.
My stick-in-the-mud empirical observations regarding non-traditional instruments has led me to conclude that bearers of these instruments have not done their homework, ie:
first of all, believing that they should be accepted into a session playing traditional music on traditional instruments,
second, they technically can't play them very well (in a traditional idiom),
third, they have a very limited repertoire and
consequently, their contribution to the session is either close to zero or has a negative value.
I am reporting my conclusions drawn from my observations in as objective a manner as I can. Agree, disagree or ignore, that's how I see it.
The End.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I must say I'm still baffled as to what "traditional" means in The Music. For instance, how long have boxes, of various sorts sizes and descriptions, been played in sessions? There must have been a time when the first box was played in a session or at a dance or whatever. So what happened? Did people throw up their hands in horror at this untraditional monstrosity, or did they just accept this new sound and a fresh way of playing and hearing The Music?
There must have been a time when the piano was a much commoner backing instrument than the guitar, so which is now part of The Tradition? Or are both? And if a fiddle is set up and played in the tradition of say 250 years ago then the difference in sound would be noticeable, and would it be "traditional" in today's terms?
The recorder certainly has a history going back centuries and I find it difficult to believe that some of The Music wasn't played on it in the 18th c. on some sort of a regular basis by some musicians. And if The Music was so played on the recorder then doesn't that make the recorder as traditional as any other instrument now used in sessions? To be sure, the recorder doesn't have the same sound as the whistle, but there is a wide variation in the sound of the flute, and indeed of whistles, and no two fiddles sound the same. Personally, I find the occasional sound of the recorder in a session, played well, a refreshing change from the whistle and the flute - and no disrespect whatsoever to those fine instruments or the people who play them!
Didn't someone say recently in a discussion something to the effect that the main thing with any out-of-the-ordinary instrument in a session is that the player should be competent, should know well the tunes he plays, and shouldn't hog the dynamics. I think that says it all.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Ah, but yer fergetting the traditional Irish contrariness, Trev. That's all very true. It's also true that in some places that it still wouldn't get you any joy, and you'd still be pariah'ed out of the pub. I think beginners need to know what may happen to them if they blithely walk into a strange session with one idea if there are other dynamics possible.. 'S only fair to warn.
Whenever we have these arguments, I always end up saying the same thing. The tradition has to change slowly to still be traditional, and it does that by having people on all sides of the change/not-change/don't-care argument. The purists have their place, so do the change-at-all-costs adherents, and of course you have to have the who-cares-as-long-as-the-crack-is-good folks.
zls
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Thanks Zina! Yes, I think your second paragraph must be close to the ultimate answer!
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Well said, the pair of ye's. For a minute I thought ye's meant the dynamics of the instrument (as in the dynamics of the pianoforte), thinking, how d'you manage that on the whistle? - and me been playin' all them decades.
I've probably never heard Irish music played well on the recorder - only enough played badly for me to arrive at the aforementioned conclusion.
And yeah zeen, yer 2nd paragraph - it must be a generational thing, so that as soon as something is out of living memory, or is only remembered by very senior (in age) people, does it become what we call traditional.
I bought a wooden whistle recently by the recorder makers Adler, and was not very impressed. It loses it in the upper register, unless it's been warmed up and all sorts of palava..these days I couldn't be bothered - I just need something to crash out loadsa tunes.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Oh God, Danny, now there's a lovely mental/aural picture...picture Danny, simply crashing out lotsa tunes. Let's see...are we on to dynamics on the whistle? *snort*
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Someone smart once told me that there are three possible reactions to change:
1) Adapt to change (ie: change yourself in order to deal with the change, leave the area of change, etc.)
2) Fight the change (ie: attempt to arrest or reverse the change, etc.)
3) Refuse to accomodate the change (die)
Zina
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Kamikaze's called for, for fear of recorder takeover....
AAAAIIIEEEEEE......
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Maybe recorders are worrying because when someone turns up with one you think "Why did they bring a recorder and not a whistle or flute?". You know that if they only bring a recorder, it's not because they want to add a new dimension to the the sound of the session, it's because they don't play the whistle. So basically they learned the recorder at school, and now they want to play it in the session. Given that they are not going to have heard a lot of great Irish players, or CDs thereof, playing this instrument, you wonder what their influences are. And that is one reason why recorders are worrying...
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Ottery
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Yes.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Yes, but if that Galician man I was talking about walked into your session, he'd kick your ass, I'm telling you! So then, what if that recorder player could play?
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Hmmm - just my opinion but I think the *sound* of the recorder is irritating - even before I played trad - when I learnt it at school I thought it was whiney and weird. Anyhow - who in their right mind would seriously learn tunes on a recorder if they could learn the flute?? PS - If anyone walked into a session I was a with a sax - I would drown my sorrows at the bar
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by bb
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Bb, I agree. Most instruments being learnt by kids at school sound weird and/or whiney, it's part of the learning process. Many kids give up playing long before they leave school but there are a few who persevere and become good or even excellent.
The reason I mention the recorder is that at one of the sessions I go to we have an occasional visitor, a lady who plays the recorder at what I would be inclined to say is a professional level, and she knows a lot of Irish tunes. At this particular session, consisting mainly of fiddles, a guitar/banjo/mandolin (according to how the spirit takes him), and a very good concertina we rarely have a flute or whistle, so a recorder player at her level is very welcome.
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
does it make a difference if the recorder is wooden or not? i find that i have a reasonable tone when i play that, and have always been accepted in the sessions where i've played it. i don't just play the recorder either - i have a variety of whistles (including a D bass whistle), and i have been known (at this point you'll prob'ly all have heart attack) to play a melodica in an accordion like way with certain tunes. i've never had any bad comments about the tone as i've been playing since i was 4, and have therefore been able to work on that for the last 20 years. does this all make me a musical leper?
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by kentishmaid
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
You guys learned recorder in school? Wow. We had these weird plastic things with raised bits round the fingerholes to make it easier to cover them. They were, in retrospect, completely horrible, but they certainly did make little kids feel successful at "playing a musical instrument". We also had various noise-making objects like wooden blocks and things that made a musical sounding clunk, or so we thought, which must have been very soothing for the music teacher at 9 am.
My friend Beth is a music teacher at an elementary school. I have enormous respect for her musical stamina.
*sigh* Well, back to the ironing board...
zls
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Thanks for your contributions folks.
All forums need a Bull in a china shop every now and again, and whilst it was not my intention to be the Cheshire cat amongst the Colonial pigeons, it does seem to have sparked a spirited debate, which can't be a bad thing.
To clear up a few points.
1- The phrase “ Ignore Don, he's a bit of a stick in the mud as regards "traditional" instruments" could have been written, " Don't mind Don he's a bit of a stick in the mud as regards "traditional" instruments". Were I come from both these phrases carry the same meaning, namely that Don has strong views about Recorders at Irish sessions so don't take his brusqueness too seriously. It certainly didn't mean ignore every thing that Don says.
2- What is wrong with the following syllogisms?
Classical Violinists don't play in Irish traditional style.
Therefore
It is not possible play traditional Irish music on the Violin.
All the Classical Violinist I've heard cannot play Irish traditional music well.
Therefore
No Classical Violinist can play Irish traditional music well.
None of the Classical violinists I've met play the Banjo.
Therefore
No Classical violinists play the Banjo.
Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
3- The reason some Recorder players don't sound "traditional" is that they play most the notes articulated. Despite a belief to the contrary it is quite possible to play the recorder Legato and use all the traditional ornamentation patterns (plus a few more not possible on the Whistle), slides and finger vibrato.
It's the Ignorance about these facts that annoys me.
I play the Whistle, Recorder, Flute, Highland Pipes, Bombard Guitar, Bodhran, and play regularly at ITM sessions so I actually know what I’m talking about.
All the best
PP
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I remember those little plastic recorders with the raised finger holes, Zina. They tried to teach us those back in elementary school. They were called "Flute-A-Phones", and they cost your parents about $3.50 each.
I still have vivid memories of our stodgy music teacher trying to lead a class of eight year olds in "Mary Had A Little Lamb", while all the children had a different song in mind (namely "FWEEEEEEETTTT!").
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by RG
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
The only recorder I've ever seen at a session is a tape recorder. Although I have to say my personal preference is Minidisc.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Backer
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
PP - I wasn't insulted when I read it - I laughed actually.
Bigdave plays, or played, banjo, but he's a violist. Doesn't that count?
And Zina, how do you play the ironing board in a session? Easy for flat notes I imagine.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
You play an ironing board *instead* of playing at a session, and it's an annoying thing to be doing instead of sleeping or playing, Danny. That work thing, who thought it up? (I make Irish stepdancing dresses for a living and I'm trying to get a last minute dress done for a friend in time for her St. Pat's day shows. I just burned my thumb, too, dammit.)
Bigdave (formerly violadave, which is probably how I'll think of him for the rest of ever, just habit) plays the banjo? Did I know that?
zls
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Did you know that? I don't know - I can't read your mind. If I could I wouldn't bother going on the internet.
Burned your thumb? must be difficult to iron and type at the same.
(Sorry - I'm not very sympathetic am I.)
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Pied, I still think you owe me on apology.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Mad Baloney
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I think he does too. On an international site such as this, different cultural mores aren't much of an excuse, and it still doesn't address the outright insult given Brad.
Be happy you can't read my mind, Danny. I haven't cleaned up in there for, Jeepers Mary and Joseph, a good long while. I check my e-mail, The Session, my other e-mail, and the Irish dressmaker's bb for a break between bits. Applying interlining is one of the the most boring jobs God ever gave man.
zls
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Never any time for cleaning with all them horizontal sessions, I suppose.
You'd be glad you can't read mine - you wouldn't believe how anyone could live in something so small - and narrow.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I personally don't like the tone quality of the recorder, at least not in Irish music; Medieval tunes like Orientis Partibus (french, also known as Song of the Ass) sound nice, and are easier to play on recorder than whistle. Unless you have an easier time half-holing than cross fingering.
I think that the cross fingering is often better than half-holing; take away that tone, and I think recorder would be just fine. Hmm...I build whistles/flutes, so that gets the wheels turning...to the spreadsheets!
Tim
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by loscann7
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I begun to play ITM in the '70s, with a steeleye span vinyl ( or vynil? ), and a wooden recorder.
I don't play the recorder anymore, but I think is possible to play ITM with it.
Is possible make rolls and crans with the recorder in the same way of the whistle.
There are some wooden whistles that plays like a recorder, and there are some wide bore recorders that have a tone very different from the normal & plastic ones.
...I have an idea : why don't you all learn to speak italian?
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by gian marco
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
Hi Tim.
The "song of the Ass", I'm very tempted to atri..... No but I won't.
Actually it’s a lovely tune, and if you play it resolving on A, you can play it on the Whistle without any half holing or cross-fingering. It goes well on Big Pipes.
All the best PP
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
But you just did, didn't you?
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
"Song of the Ass" ?? - is that the one where the guy sticks his finger in his ear and goes "Hee Haw... Hee Haw... Hee Haw.. etc " ? I saw a young singer (Irish) doing this on a TV programme some years ago, taking the p... out of sean-nos singing.
Recorders, eh ...I think the Galician musician referred to above was piper Carlos Nunez. He did a duet with Scottish piper Fred Morrison on a music programme about 3 or 4 years ago,which I still have a tape of. Small-pipes and recorder playing the "Laird Of Drumblair". It was an excellent piece of playing. Many people would say it wasn't good Scottish traditional music, but who cares? I think most of the contributers to this discussion, if not site, would have liked it. I say this as someone who doesn't generally like the sound of recorders, but there are always exceptions.
Scottish band "Capercaillie" had a recorder-player for many of their formative years - Marc Duff, who is also a very good whistle-player. He played the recorder on several of their early recordings, and although I always preferred him on whistle, I have to admit, it worked.
I can't think of any recording of traditional Irish music played on the recorder. Nor have I ever come across one being played in a session in Ireland. I can't help but think if it was worth doing, some-one would have done it by now.
# Posted on March 14th 2003 by Kenny
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
What a brilliant idea Gian! Italian might sound very much like Irish to someone who didn't understand either, and what right has anyonone got to say that singing sean-nos in Italian is not a part of the tradition? I bet if that Mario Lanza turned up at our session, he'd kick our singer's ass!
I believe that there were many 78 records made in Boston in the 1930s, where you can clearly hear the Italian accents coming through (Although even then the regional variations were slurring together, with only 'Sliabh Lucca' still providing a distinct regional style).
AND what about that fiddler Tony De Marco...?
# Posted on March 14th 2003 by Ottery
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I appreciate all the comments: I've heard all these opinions before.
Responding to some earlier comments . . .
Actually, while I play recorder quite seriously (for a student), and while the great majority of what I
play is Irish, I haven't actually ever heard a bona fide irish band in serious concert (well, one time
that doesn't count), though I will tomorrow, so I guess I don't have the background to judge
'traditional' sound or not. But, I jam with a friend who has a pennywhistle all the time, and though
I still have my 6th grade yamaha plastic recorder/instrument of war, it can sound as soft and sweet as ever, and
it can blend very well- well, I think so. Usually one of us plays the tune while the other improvises a harmony.
This sounds phemonenal playing ta mo chleamhnas.
I've found that playing whistle I use virtually the same
ornamentations that I do on the recorder- but that's 'cause I just started playing recorder on whistle with a little bit of change.
The fingerings work, and so does the thumb stuff- thanks
# Posted on March 15th 2003 by micelfife
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
In general, I think folks should leave their recorders, saxes, tamborines, etc.. at home. I personally would not want to show up at a session and have folks roll their eyes if I were to pull out a recorder. In other aspects of my life, I'm a rebel. But when it comes to sessions, I'm completely respectful and do my best to adhere to the Irish music tradition. Just my humble opinion.
Joyce from Vermont
# Posted on March 17th 2003 by JMH
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I once had a whistle student who had a degree in recorder performance. I wish I'd concentrated on getting her interested in Irish music rather than trying to "teach" her the tin whistle, because she was a great player. If she'd taken out a recorder at any session I've ever been to, you'd be blown away before you ever had time to think of a witty remark about the appropriateness of recorders. I'll bet they're few and far between though...
# Posted on March 17th 2003 by Gzeg
Re: recorders, quirks thereof
I love the recorder and its "natural" repertoire (as opposed to the zillions of non-idiomatic transcriptions aimed at those who see it *only* as a cheap and accessible means to being able to play tunes) and would like to see the day when people think of Michael Grinter, Fred Morgan or Joanne Saunders hand-made, professional instrument as readily as they think of the shockers handed round in schools.
However, I personally wouldn't take one to a session. Regardless of whether or not it "fits" in the tradition (which is not an area I'm "qualified" to comment on), a baroque treble holds its own with other period instruments but is fighting above its weight with modern violin so I can't see it working next to multiple fiddles, steel string guitars, concertinas, etc. Even the wooden flutes used are generally much much louder than baroque flutes. To be heard, I would think you'd need to play descant and sopranino and I don't think that would be a good idea, you might end up playing the end-blown variant of the moravian nose flute, or even two at once in organum.
But then, I wouldn't take any instrument, even my fiddle, to a session anyway until I had "sussed" the session and the regulars out. (I was very good, bb, wasn't I? I left my consort of recorders and my compost of crumhorns and my surfeit of spoons ALL at home in the drawer 8>)
# Posted on March 17th 2003 by Tish