Any defenders of GDae tuning on octave mandolins out there? It seems almost everyone playing Irish music on stretchy 4-course instruments is using some "open" tuning such as GDad or ADad (and even on mandolins in the case of Andy Irvine and Johnny Moynihan.)
I want to use my 22" scale length OM for tune and song accompaniment (chords, cross-picking, melody, and countermelody lines. It would also be nice to figure out some solo chord-melodies as well if I can find them on the fingerboard.
GDae is very tempting since I can immediately transfer all of my knowledge from the tenor banjo without relearning the top string or making position jumps to hit the high b note. Lots of interesting chord voicings seem to be available as well, along with "power chords" that work nicely for tune accompaniment. The open e string works well as a drone (like the 5 string banjo idea) for Aminor, or its capoed variations, but maybe not so well for songs and tunes in D or G.
I can see the intersting possibilities of GDad , especially to use the high d string as a drone, but I wonder if it's not a bit limiting?
I play octave mando in GDAE. That way I don't have to rethink the tunes when switching from regular mando, fiddle, or tenor banjo. I have never felt that GDAE was limiting me somehow on the octave mando. But I am not a big fan of the droney type of accompaniment (don't even get me started about the tedious cliche that is DADGAD guitar).
This is more of an apples and oranges discussion in that the two tunings, while they seem similar, are really very different.
The GDAD tuning begs that the open D become a drone and is probably more suited to accompaniment than the GDAE tuning. Not that you can't play single string notes with GDAD, of course, but it works better as a chordal tuning while it limits the use of the B note. An drone open string has a wonderful sound for backup.
The other issue is scale length. Rather than get into an argument over what constitutes an Octave Mandolin or a bouzouki, lets just look at scale length. The longer scale length instruments (24" and over) have more sustain and may be louder. The result is that they are much better than a 22" double coursed instrument for that job as the sustain carries the chords.
A 22" instrument has a more defined sound suitable for melody work. Granted, instruments in both scales can be used for melody and backup, but the tendencies are there.
In addition, it is no problem to play the fifth or even seventh fret on a 22" inch instrument but quite a stretch at 24"-25" although it can be done.
Hence the apples (short scale) are better suited for GDAE and melody work while the oranges (longer scale) do better with GDAD. It all depends on what you want to do.
You can play backup with GDAE and you can play melody with GDAD, but in each circumstance you give up a little (drone with GDAE, melodic range with GDAD) so if you are making a decision, keep this in mind.
I'm a 'zouk player on GDae.
Yes, you may have to throw your hand about a bit more for tune-playing. Have you got a problem with that ?
And I like the chord shapes and sounds that you can get, especially on things in G. Don't like D so much for accompanying, there isn't a real bottom root D there.
Make up your own mind, even invent a new tuning. There are no rules in 'zouk-playing, only preferences and short-term habits.
I use GDAD on Bouzouki, and capo on fret 7 if I need to play melody. I know its a limited place to be, and requires some dexterity to play all the notes in all the tunes, but for handy chording it is hard to beat . And if Lunny and Irvine use it, it cant be bad.
Normally though I'll stick to backing. For tunes i prefer mandolin or tenor B. (gdae)
I switch back and forth. When I am playing tunes on the zouk more (which doesn't happen all that much these days), I'll use GDAE, when accompanying you have a lot more possibility with GDAD, as you mentioned with the droning string.
I find that GDAD works very nicely for crosspicking, picking pattern (as opposed to strumming) accompaniment, and counter-melody.
If you're comfortable with shifting your hand, you can get used to playing tunes in GDAD. You only have to re-orient the brain on the one string. For me, that works until I am trying to play tunes fast, and then I can't keep up.
Or just capo the 7th fret and have DAEA, and just play tunes on the lower three courses...
Mikeyes, that's pretty much along the lines I was thinking of, which still leaves me experimenting for a while before deciding. I'm probably going to use a 22" apple to do a 24" orange's work for the most part. If I choose to go GDad I may have to get a heavier pair of strings, though.
Pete, I thought of switching back and forth between tunings, but doing that on a cheapy bouzouki I had led to frequent string breaks. I'm not sure my heart can take too many more of the sudden "b'doyng's" The capo on the 7th fret trick is interesting, but leaves me with an okay but much quieter instrument - it wouldn't be such a problem on a bouzouki I'm sure, but I've committed probably my last instrument acquisition to the OM.
Guernsey, actually I find I have to throw my hand around less in GDae than in GDad, so no problem.
Crazy fingerz, I sympathize with your comment on the droney type accompaniment, at least when applied to absolutely everything. That's what I meant by "limited" in my original thread.
>> I thought of switching back and forth between tunings, but doing that on a cheapy bouzouki I had led to frequent string breaks.
You have to choose your string gauge wisely if you're going to do that. I tune them back and forth fairly often and almost never break a string (I break my A strings much more often, and they're running at the same tension as the others, so I probably have a nut issue or something...)
>> ...but I've committed probably my last instrument acquisition to the OM.
Can you tell me what witch doctor or 12 step program you've used to be able to say that? I don't think I'll ever stop buying instruments! Fortunately, unlike some people I know, I also SELL instruments a lot too! (Usually to be able to afford to buy new ones...)
Without trying to be over-simplistic, GDAE is better suited to melody playing? It seems to me that GDAD is better for chord accompaniment. There are other options as well, the most obvious being ADAD. Some friends of mine use ADAE for mainly melody-style. I struggled for a while trying to play in this tuning until I realised that GDAD suited me best. There was a certain amount of pain involved in re-learning chords etc., along with the realisation that for example, key of A can be problematic in GDAD whereas it is quite natural for ADAE. Every tuning has advantages and disadvantages, you just need to sort out what suits best and also don't be afraid to switch tunings if/when needed.
I have a 22" OM and use GDAD for song and tune backing, but play the occasional tune on it. When playing tunes on the OM I try to avoid tunes that go higher than an A so I don't have to move from first position. If I really want to play a tune on a stringed instrument (as opposed to Flute and Whistle) I play Mandolin and I tune mine to GDAE because it is easier to play tunes in GDAE. I also use GDGD on the OM because I can capo up and sing songs that I know in D in a better key for my voice such as B and still play the same chord shapes I would in D only I have another string which I can use as a drone.
I think GDAD is definitely the best tuning for accompaniment - it works very well with the cross-picking style because you can use double-stops and leave the other strings to drone. Done well this can sound fantastic - it just seems so suited to ITM.
I've toyed with the idea of retuning to ADAD after hearing Eoin O'Neill play, but I'm not sure I want to relearn all my chords.
Instrument acquisition syndrome withdrawal: It's not a12 step program, Pete: it's a two-step program. You wake up one morning and your oldest teen needs to research which university he is going to go to next year - and you figure out what the cost will be.
Step 2: you realize his sister will be doing the same thing in a year's time.
Unfortunately Irish citizens will not have access to this wonderful program, what with their free 3rd level education and all. Poor sods.
lol grego... Those kids will be out of college sometime in, well, 5 to 10 years... Are you planning on being so broke from all of this that there's no fun left for you anymore? Are you planning on being so old that your arthritic fingers can't hold an instrument anymore?
Maybe you should consider your OM the last acquisition *for a while* instead. It just seemed to have such a note of finality to it. Not good!
GDae versus GDad tuning
GDae versus GDad tuning
Any defenders of GDae tuning on octave mandolins out there? It seems almost everyone playing Irish music on stretchy 4-course instruments is using some "open" tuning such as GDad or ADad (and even on mandolins in the case of Andy Irvine and Johnny Moynihan.)
I want to use my 22" scale length OM for tune and song accompaniment (chords, cross-picking, melody, and countermelody lines. It would also be nice to figure out some solo chord-melodies as well if I can find them on the fingerboard.
GDae is very tempting since I can immediately transfer all of my knowledge from the tenor banjo without relearning the top string or making position jumps to hit the high b note. Lots of interesting chord voicings seem to be available as well, along with "power chords" that work nicely for tune accompaniment. The open e string works well as a drone (like the 5 string banjo idea) for Aminor, or its capoed variations, but maybe not so well for songs and tunes in D or G.
I can see the intersting possibilities of GDad , especially to use the high d string as a drone, but I wonder if it's not a bit limiting?
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by grego
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
I play octave mando in GDAE. That way I don't have to rethink the tunes when switching from regular mando, fiddle, or tenor banjo. I have never felt that GDAE was limiting me somehow on the octave mando. But I am not a big fan of the droney type of accompaniment (don't even get me started about the tedious cliche that is DADGAD guitar).
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by crazy_fingerz
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
the best bouzouki player I know uses GDAD despite being a good (GDAE) tenor banjo player.
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
This is more of an apples and oranges discussion in that the two tunings, while they seem similar, are really very different.
The GDAD tuning begs that the open D become a drone and is probably more suited to accompaniment than the GDAE tuning. Not that you can't play single string notes with GDAD, of course, but it works better as a chordal tuning while it limits the use of the B note. An drone open string has a wonderful sound for backup.
The other issue is scale length. Rather than get into an argument over what constitutes an Octave Mandolin or a bouzouki, lets just look at scale length. The longer scale length instruments (24" and over) have more sustain and may be louder. The result is that they are much better than a 22" double coursed instrument for that job as the sustain carries the chords.
A 22" instrument has a more defined sound suitable for melody work. Granted, instruments in both scales can be used for melody and backup, but the tendencies are there.
In addition, it is no problem to play the fifth or even seventh fret on a 22" inch instrument but quite a stretch at 24"-25" although it can be done.
Hence the apples (short scale) are better suited for GDAE and melody work while the oranges (longer scale) do better with GDAD. It all depends on what you want to do.
You can play backup with GDAE and you can play melody with GDAD, but in each circumstance you give up a little (drone with GDAE, melodic range with GDAD) so if you are making a decision, keep this in mind.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by mikeyes
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
I'm a 'zouk player on GDae.
Yes, you may have to throw your hand about a bit more for tune-playing. Have you got a problem with that ?
And I like the chord shapes and sounds that you can get, especially on things in G. Don't like D so much for accompanying, there isn't a real bottom root D there.
Make up your own mind, even invent a new tuning. There are no rules in 'zouk-playing, only preferences and short-term habits.
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
I use GDAD on Bouzouki, and capo on fret 7 if I need to play melody. I know its a limited place to be, and requires some dexterity to play all the notes in all the tunes, but for handy chording it is hard to beat . And if Lunny and Irvine use it, it cant be bad.
Normally though I'll stick to backing. For tunes i prefer mandolin or tenor B. (gdae)
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by Backer
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
I switch back and forth. When I am playing tunes on the zouk more (which doesn't happen all that much these days), I'll use GDAE, when accompanying you have a lot more possibility with GDAD, as you mentioned with the droning string.
I find that GDAD works very nicely for crosspicking, picking pattern (as opposed to strumming) accompaniment, and counter-melody.
If you're comfortable with shifting your hand, you can get used to playing tunes in GDAD. You only have to re-orient the brain on the one string. For me, that works until I am trying to play tunes fast, and then I can't keep up.
Or just capo the 7th fret and have DAEA, and just play tunes on the lower three courses...
Pete
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by Reverend
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
Me. Wouldn't have it any other way.
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
Bliss I hope your not taking the p*ss out of us bouzouki players.........(smiley face)...................
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by Saint
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.
Mikeyes, that's pretty much along the lines I was thinking of, which still leaves me experimenting for a while before deciding. I'm probably going to use a 22" apple to do a 24" orange's work for the most part. If I choose to go GDad I may have to get a heavier pair of strings, though.
Pete, I thought of switching back and forth between tunings, but doing that on a cheapy bouzouki I had led to frequent string breaks. I'm not sure my heart can take too many more of the sudden "b'doyng's" The capo on the 7th fret trick is interesting, but leaves me with an okay but much quieter instrument - it wouldn't be such a problem on a bouzouki I'm sure, but I've committed probably my last instrument acquisition to the OM.
Guernsey, actually I find I have to throw my hand around less in GDae than in GDad, so no problem.
Crazy fingerz, I sympathize with your comment on the droney type accompaniment, at least when applied to absolutely everything. That's what I meant by "limited" in my original thread.
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by grego
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
>> I thought of switching back and forth between tunings, but doing that on a cheapy bouzouki I had led to frequent string breaks.
You have to choose your string gauge wisely if you're going to do that. I tune them back and forth fairly often and almost never break a string (I break my A strings much more often, and they're running at the same tension as the others, so I probably have a nut issue or something...)
>> ...but I've committed probably my last instrument acquisition to the OM.
Can you tell me what witch doctor or 12 step program you've used to be able to say that? I don't think I'll ever stop buying instruments! Fortunately, unlike some people I know, I also SELL instruments a lot too! (Usually to be able to afford to buy new ones...)
Pete
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by Reverend
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
Without trying to be over-simplistic, GDAE is better suited to melody playing? It seems to me that GDAD is better for chord accompaniment. There are other options as well, the most obvious being ADAD. Some friends of mine use ADAE for mainly melody-style. I struggled for a while trying to play in this tuning until I realised that GDAD suited me best. There was a certain amount of pain involved in re-learning chords etc., along with the realisation that for example, key of A can be problematic in GDAD whereas it is quite natural for ADAE. Every tuning has advantages and disadvantages, you just need to sort out what suits best and also don't be afraid to switch tunings if/when needed.
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by lysaghtm
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
The question was about an octave mandolin. GDAE, that's truly, sacredly, purist and traditional.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
G DAE is obviously Australian.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
bliss how do you tune your drum.........for me its INTIMe........but everone is diff.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Saint
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
I have a 22" OM and use GDAD for song and tune backing, but play the occasional tune on it. When playing tunes on the OM I try to avoid tunes that go higher than an A so I don't have to move from first position. If I really want to play a tune on a stringed instrument (as opposed to Flute and Whistle) I play Mandolin and I tune mine to GDAE because it is easier to play tunes in GDAE. I also use GDGD on the OM because I can capo up and sing songs that I know in D in a better key for my voice such as B and still play the same chord shapes I would in D only I have another string which I can use as a drone.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Unseen122
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
I think GDAD is definitely the best tuning for accompaniment - it works very well with the cross-picking style because you can use double-stops and leave the other strings to drone. Done well this can sound fantastic - it just seems so suited to ITM.
I've toyed with the idea of retuning to ADAD after hearing Eoin O'Neill play, but I'm not sure I want to relearn all my chords.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
Instrument acquisition syndrome withdrawal: It's not a12 step program, Pete: it's a two-step program. You wake up one morning and your oldest teen needs to research which university he is going to go to next year - and you figure out what the cost will be.
Step 2: you realize his sister will be doing the same thing in a year's time.
Unfortunately Irish citizens will not have access to this wonderful program, what with their free 3rd level education and all. Poor sods.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by grego
Re: GDae versus GDad tuning
lol grego... Those kids will be out of college sometime in, well, 5 to 10 years... Are you planning on being so broke from all of this that there's no fun left for you anymore? Are you planning on being so old that your arthritic fingers can't hold an instrument anymore?
Maybe you should consider your OM the last acquisition *for a while* instead. It just seemed to have such a note of finality to it. Not good!
P.S. Good luck with the next 5 to 10 years
Pete
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Reverend