I was listening to some Junior Crehan tunes on my iPod the other day and finally figured out what it is about the older players that I like so much that the newer players don't have...the intonation has a *bluesy* feel to it. He slides up to the note but never quite lands on it, so it sounds a little flat (to the uninitiated) but very minorish in feel. I just love that sound! Gospel singers also sing this way, Aretha Franklin sings this way---they really dig into the slide and emphasize the flat end of the tone (think "R-E-S-P-E-C-T"...that first R...it's maybe a quarter-tone lower than the rest, and you can't play it on a piano!). Modern Irish playing seems to be all about concert pitch, unfortunately. Anyone know what I mean?
I have not got around to hearing Junior Crehan playing solo yet but from what you're saying, I think Paddy Canny does the same thing. If it is this type of playing then maybe you just have an interest in the old Clare style. I don't think John Doherty (Donegal fiddler) played this way and neither did the Sligo boys (Michael Coleman, Jim Morrison etc).
If you listen to martin Hayes he does a lot of these slides but his intonation is more exact so I know its not what you're after but, at the same time, Martin probably took this from the older generation Clare players when he spent his time with the Tulla Ceili Band. His Dad (P.J. Hayes) would have had a similar style to Paddy Canny too.
Lets hope you have a good few more years on this earth before you get around to hear Junior playing, PaddyC!!!
But there is a retrospective CD, The Last House in Ballymakea or something like that.
Well said, Kennedy, spot on about the concert pitch, note perfect nonsense that dominates much of todays music (all genres). If anyones interested, listen to an album called "One Foot In The Grave" by Beck to hear how good an out of tune guitar really sounds.
Its not just about slides either, semi/neutral tones are a big part of traditional fiddling in general. Some people see that part of trad. music as "bad technique" or whatever and that is far from the truth... master fiddlers hit those notes because they WANT to.
On the other hand Ive seen/heard mediocre fiddlers who claim they are using semi/neutral tones when they are plainly off key tempered or nontempered scale!
Also its not just about semi/neutral tones. Many of the oldest fiddling traditions will sharp the 4th of the scale completely. For example, the scale Id use for "Soldiers Joy" wouldnt be DEFGABC# but DEFGABC# and G#
Not all of the Gs are sharped, but its a matter of selection. I hear this trait in Hardanger music alot as well.
Where I grew up the oldest of all players used something like that. Also it could be (G half sharp.) I hear this in Irish music as well and of course its just not the 4th of the scale but the third is a good example as well.
"I don't think John Doherty (Donegal fiddler) played this way and neither did the Sligo boys (Michael Coleman, Jim Morrison etc)."
Not really true - some people would argue that every area of Ireland has a slightly different flavor of intonation and all the real traditional players use their regional scale. Doherty's particular intonation can probably be heard best on a simple tune like the Mountain Road off The Floating Bow - especially the F-F sharp family (not to mention he's tuned down a half-step). Coleman on the other hand, try listening to - errr, Good Morning to Your Nightcap? I think, comes after Farrell o'Gara's on the MC 1891-1945 record. Here's it's the C-C sharp bits that stand out. You should be able to pick up pieces of special intonation in more or less all the older players, given enough head space and ear time.
the late martin rochford of east clare was also an exemplar of this special quality:...there is a short fiddle clip if you enter the site & then click on his name. he is at the top of my dream cd-release list....
www.claremusic.tripod.com
the music of east clare's vincent griffen, though not snugly in the rochford or canny mode, also often has this "blue" pitch quality.
Dan, I know what you're saying. As the ornamentation and general styles of players varies throughout the regions, it appears that this intonation style is a feature which also varies and, in effect, could be classified as ornamentation itself. We can certainly agree though that the Doherty and the Coleman style of fiddling contrast greatly with the Clare style on this point of intonation but there are plenty of other things that contrast too between regional styles so I think I'll leave it at that.
That sound, Pt. II
That sound, Pt. II
I was listening to some Junior Crehan tunes on my iPod the other day and finally figured out what it is about the older players that I like so much that the newer players don't have...the intonation has a *bluesy* feel to it. He slides up to the note but never quite lands on it, so it sounds a little flat (to the uninitiated) but very minorish in feel. I just love that sound! Gospel singers also sing this way, Aretha Franklin sings this way---they really dig into the slide and emphasize the flat end of the tone (think "R-E-S-P-E-C-T"...that first R...it's maybe a quarter-tone lower than the rest, and you can't play it on a piano!). Modern Irish playing seems to be all about concert pitch, unfortunately. Anyone know what I mean?
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: That sound, Pt. II
Can I hear an Amen? AAAAAAAAAAAAAmen!!!!!!!!
Can I hear a Hallelujah? HaaLLeluuuuuuuuuyah!!!!!!!
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: That sound, Pt. II
I hear you, brother!
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: That sound, Pt. II
I have not got around to hearing Junior Crehan playing solo yet but from what you're saying, I think Paddy Canny does the same thing. If it is this type of playing then maybe you just have an interest in the old Clare style. I don't think John Doherty (Donegal fiddler) played this way and neither did the Sligo boys (Michael Coleman, Jim Morrison etc).
If you listen to martin Hayes he does a lot of these slides but his intonation is more exact so I know its not what you're after but, at the same time, Martin probably took this from the older generation Clare players when he spent his time with the Tulla Ceili Band. His Dad (P.J. Hayes) would have had a similar style to Paddy Canny too.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by PaddyCmusic
Re: That sound, Pt. II
Lets hope you have a good few more years on this earth before you get around to hear Junior playing, PaddyC!!!
But there is a retrospective CD, The Last House in Ballymakea or something like that.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: That sound, Pt. II
I think its the Bb that Junior used. I like that sound my self.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by I_Fel
Re: That sound, Pt. II
I think this sliding technique is more characteristic of southern styles, like Clare and Sliabh Luachra.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by seán_óg
Re: That sound, Pt. II
Check out “An Bhabog Sa Bhadog” by Junior’s grandson, Kevin Crehan. You can definitely hear Junior’s sound in Kevin’s playing.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/57
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by fidkid
Re: That sound, Pt. II
Well said, Kennedy, spot on about the concert pitch, note perfect nonsense that dominates much of todays music (all genres). If anyones interested, listen to an album called "One Foot In The Grave" by Beck to hear how good an out of tune guitar really sounds.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by strayaway
Re: That sound, Pt. II
Its not just about slides either, semi/neutral tones are a big part of traditional fiddling in general. Some people see that part of trad. music as "bad technique" or whatever and that is far from the truth... master fiddlers hit those notes because they WANT to.
On the other hand Ive seen/heard mediocre fiddlers who claim they are using semi/neutral tones when they are plainly off key tempered or nontempered scale!
Also its not just about semi/neutral tones. Many of the oldest fiddling traditions will sharp the 4th of the scale completely. For example, the scale Id use for "Soldiers Joy" wouldnt be DEFGABC# but DEFGABC# and G#
Not all of the Gs are sharped, but its a matter of selection. I hear this trait in Hardanger music alot as well.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: That sound, Pt. II
Example B part of Soldiers Joy
X:1
K:D
| f3 ^g a2f2 | edef gfed | f3 ^g a2f2 | efec A2de |
Where I grew up the oldest of all players used something like that. Also it could be (G half sharp.) I hear this in Irish music as well and of course its just not the 4th of the scale but the third is a good example as well.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: That sound, Pt. II
"I don't think John Doherty (Donegal fiddler) played this way and neither did the Sligo boys (Michael Coleman, Jim Morrison etc)."
Not really true - some people would argue that every area of Ireland has a slightly different flavor of intonation and all the real traditional players use their regional scale. Doherty's particular intonation can probably be heard best on a simple tune like the Mountain Road off The Floating Bow - especially the F-F sharp family (not to mention he's tuned down a half-step). Coleman on the other hand, try listening to - errr, Good Morning to Your Nightcap? I think, comes after Farrell o'Gara's on the MC 1891-1945 record. Here's it's the C-C sharp bits that stand out. You should be able to pick up pieces of special intonation in more or less all the older players, given enough head space and ear time.
--DtM
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: That sound, Pt. II
the late martin rochford of east clare was also an exemplar of this special quality:...there is a short fiddle clip if you enter the site & then click on his name. he is at the top of my dream cd-release list....
www.claremusic.tripod.com
the music of east clare's vincent griffen, though not snugly in the rochford or canny mode, also often has this "blue" pitch quality.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: That sound, Pt. II
Dan, I know what you're saying. As the ornamentation and general styles of players varies throughout the regions, it appears that this intonation style is a feature which also varies and, in effect, could be classified as ornamentation itself. We can certainly agree though that the Doherty and the Coleman style of fiddling contrast greatly with the Clare style on this point of intonation but there are plenty of other things that contrast too between regional styles so I think I'll leave it at that.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by PaddyCmusic