Kennedy; you are saying there were dances (rhythm) which were performed * but no one played (or hummed) a melody. At the same time there were airs to which no one danced. Eventually the 2 parts came together. Neither came 1st?
*{I know which came 1st the Irish session or gigs?}
Muse, no, not like that---for many tunes (not all), the dance came first, meaning there was this hornpipe dance that people knew, there were already existing melodies for it, but people wanted a greater variety of melodies and so the musicians composed new ones to fit the existing form and rhythm---sometimes brand new melodies, and sometimes melodies borrowed from existing airs and laments that they sped up and shaped to fit the dance. Did I explain it better that time?
Adam and Eve McEden
Before they fouled earth with their breedin
Ate of the snake's fig, then they danced to his jig
So God yanked 'em and shrugged,
'I'm just weedin'
The dance and the music always comes out at the same time. The Twist came out with the Twist. The Monster Mash came out with Monster Mash. The Macarena came out with the Macarena. Etc.
My understanding, as it relates to ITM, is that around 300 years ago people were arriving back to Ireland from other parts of Europe after learning dances. They didn't have any means of recording the music, so they approached local players and asked, "Can you play something so we can dance like this?" And the musician took the Irish melodies in his or her head and reinvented them with the danceable rhythm. The rest is history.
well for me this is a bit of a no brainer, of course the music came first because as 'hard to pin down' says 'why would you be dancin around if there was no music huh?'
Many of the tunes people dance to now and way back then were originally songs which were then transfered to instruments. The dancing aspect would obviously had to have come after this and while many tunes have probably been written for the dance since, surely the original function of the music was not for dancing but rather for other social means such as songs to sing while working, songs of celebration and songs of lamentation.
kennedy seems a bit confused when she says
'the dance came first, meaning there was this hornpipe dance that people knew, there were already existing melodies for it, but people wanted a greater variety of melodies and so the musicians composed new ones to fit the existing form and rhythm---sometimes brand new melodies, and sometimes melodies borrowed from existing airs and laments that they sped up and shaped to fit the dance.'
So kennedy you've stated the dance came first but then said there were already existing melodies for the hornpipe dance when people started dancing the hornpipe, in other words people adopted already existing music for this hornpipe dance, therefore the music came first! I know more and more tunes were then created but this doesn't hide the fact that the music came before the dance and the rhythms we know as reel, jig, hornpipe etc., were not originally dancing rhythms they were just the rhythms of songs and tunes which dancers adapted for dancing. Perhaps you mean that the term hornpipe originated through dancers, this is possibly true but is there any proof of this?
Therefore is it not reasonable for musicians to treat ITM as music for listening rather than music for dancing? Tommy Potts, Con Cassidy, Martin Hayes and many others have been criticised for taking the music out of its 'dancing roots' but are they not simply going back further into the music's 'listening roots'? Paddy Fahey has explicitly stated his tunes are for listening rather than dancing and anyone who has heard him playing will understand his point of view. He plays the music at a very relaxed pace that would surely be too slow for most dancers. Yet it is much more satisfying for me as a listener to hear him play his tunes at this pace rather than hear some ceílí band battering it out at 100mph.
I enjoy ITM primarily as a listener and performer, I don't dance to it and don't particularly see the need to appreciate the dance aspect of the tradition, yet some people see it as essential.
I don't buy this whole argument 'you can't know the music unless you know the dance', to me all I have to do is listen instensely to great musicians playing the music and I have all the info I need. The dancing can be a great thing to witness and an entertaining addition to the music (particularly sean-nós dancing) but considering the real roots of this music is the dancing as essential as some people make out?
To me this is only true if your primary reason for playing ITM is to play it for dancers. Is it not valid to just treat ITM as music for listening and personal expression rather than being a tool for the dancers?!!
Oh and 'sbhikes', dance and music cannot possibly come at the same time, the contrived dances you mentioned were manufactured for popular consumption and the style of music they put the dances to were already there. To quote wikipedia
"The Twist was a rock and roll dance popular in the early 1960s named after the song that originated it, The Twist. It was the first major international rock and roll dance style in which the couples did not have to touch each other while dancing.
The dance was first popularized by Chubby Checker in 1960 with a hit cover of the 1959 B-side and minor hit "The Twist" written by Hank Ballard."
In other words Hank Ballard wrote a song called 'The Twist' which was a 12 bar blues in style, he and his band then contrived some twisting movements to go along with the music thus creating the dance form known as 'The Twist' so any tunes written for Twisting were therefore based on the style of 12 bar blues used in the original song.
The question wasn't 'music', it was as stated, reels and jigs:
"Simple question really, were reels, jigs and so on originally pieces of music that people later put dance steps to or vice-versa?"
In this case, yes, it is a 'no brainer' ~ dance, though they kind of chase each other, like the famous oroboros, the snake eating it's own tail. As long as it grows as fast as it eats things will be OK... However, both have and do exist without the other, for example, the silent kolos of Kosovo and Hercegovena...
The Hokey Kokey is an ironic indictment of poor manual handling techniques that were frequently used in Lancashire cotton mills. The verses deal with a suitable warm-up for the potential man-handler: put you left leg in, your left left in, in / out, in / out, shake it all about (the industry standard manual handling adivce was that a worker that had done a full and proper warm up prior to working would protect him from serious lumbar issues that would prevent him from working).
The chorus focused upon the new improved methods - namely "knees bent, arms straight" thus keeping the back from being damaged. It is included in on of Vaughan Williams' collections, and was cited by Ewan McColl as a classic example of the working class struggle manifesting itself through folk song.
On a more serious note, I'm very agin people becoming too comfortable with the separation of music and dance. One of the best things I ever did for my playing was take up dance. Whether or not it is essential is debateable, but certainly the players who I have the greatest respect for all seem to be capable ceilidh dancers at the very least, and all will take up the opportunity to dance if it ever presents itself. In my playing as part of a group I strive to make people move physically, secondary is to make them think "wow, what artistic and technically skilled playing and arrangement" - and I think that's more achievable if the musician has dancing experience.
Dear hardtopindown;
You are so warped in the weave you mistake the subject title for the question:
"Simple question really, were reels, jigs and so on originally pieces of music that people later put dance steps to or vice-versa?"
Give ceolachan more credit.
Kennedy I think you are really on to something about the evolution of dance & the development of new melodies (more tunes). But it really is a different thread.
Anyway I live in California where many people still noodle dance. It is really primeval. In a time before rhythm people made sounds & move around. It is that hypnotic think that happens when you stare into a fire, or imbibe imbibibals.
It was the dance that came 1st.
Way, way, way back everyone was doing this moving about & making sounds all without rhythm. Then, one of the move abouters started it. With their feet, clapping hands, & chanting (oh, that's pre-song) 1- 2 7-8-9. all the sound makers were in a trance anyway so they got into the grove. It was long long ago & I think after the 1st session they had a slip jig. That was the dance & the tune for nearly 1,000 years. No one knew about saddness so laments came much later.
Chill?
Reading the question is not reason enough for sadness.
"Have to scroll to the top . . . ?"
Someone needs noodle time.
Warp, thread, weave, looms, webster's
Frisbee, I'm not confused---my memory is a little fuzzy, however, and I can't remember exactly where I read about dances coming into Ireland from other places and the local musicians responding with new music. I did read it somewhere, though. It's not a coincidence that many of the reels, jigs, hornpipes, slides, polkas, and other tunes we know are usually about 200 years old---it was about that long ago that European dancing, especially from France and Italy, came into fashion. It happened in Scotland too---the upper classes went to France, learned the dances there, and came back wanting to continue dancing at home---and the local musicians were happy to adapt.
I'm not saying there were no dances native to Ireland, only that many of the tunes that have come down to us were in response to the fashionable new dances of the 18th and 19th century. Mazurkas and schottishes and polkas were not originally Irish, as far as I know, and yet we now have many of these tunes within the tradition.
And if you need an example of local melodies being adapted for new settings, look to some of the tunes Junior Crehan composed. He created the jig the "Mist Covered Mountain" from a much older air (of the same name and other names), and I believe the hornpipe "Caislean an Oir" from "The Priest Lament"---it's a common device in Irish traditional music.
Now, as for your claim, "this doesn't hide the fact that the music came before the dance and the rhythms we know as reel, jig, hornpipe etc., were not originally dancing rhythms they were just the rhythms of songs and tunes which dancers adapted for dancing"---I don't know how you can prove this. Were you around the first time anyone ever played a jig? Did you see whether there was someone dancing to it? It's like trying to argue the existence of heaven---no one has any recorded proof, so people come up with all sorts of fantastic ideas. As for me, I don't know. Can't know.
I agree that rhythm originally set humans in motion - everything else followed in a wonderfully chaotic way, probably.
(I was going to say that chickens evolved from weird looking swimming reptile thingies ..... oh never mind)
I would have thought that most things evolve in such a way that many parallel paths of change happen and interact with each other along the way. Every now and again that interaction leads to a new pathway or line of evolution. So it is not a straight line but lots of squiggly lines transecting each other.
I very much doubt that someone composed a tune and called it a reel specifying the beats etc and then asked a dance friend to choreograph a dance. Similarily I doubt that the full steps of the Reel were choreographed and then passed on to a musician to write a melody fitting into that framework.
With the Sets (dances), I believe some Irish soldiers returned from the continent having learned those group dances. They asked the musicians to adapt exisiting tunes to give those group dances an Irish feel. That is an entirely different process.
In African culture as far as I know from TV docos, there has long been a tradition of dancing to beat without melody, not that they dont have a melody tradition as well.
Oh, oh, kennedy, you've opened the 'performance' door!
"fashion........upper classes...."
Dance, music, and other arts had and have drawn on folklore and folk art. The manifestation of contrived and formal dance and music is not necessarily an indication of their origins.
Choreographers and composers do, of course, have Original Performances, with or without giving credit to their rustic sources.
This all has little to do with the primal stirrings in quiet communities which may eventually develop into specific dances and their accompanying tunes.
Free - I WAS talking about music and dance or at least how things in general evolve. Those broad principles probably apply to how dance music came into being.
Irish music cant be looked at with solid clear boundaries, it's constantly evolving and was always something that has changed gradually over time with foreign influences-(reels come from Scotland, polkas from Bohemia etc), mixing with the already existing musical styles. Dancing also would have changed over time, and was essential for music, and when it comes to irish dance music, the music and dance are symbiotic.
dancing was never essential for slow airs was it? seeing as many 'dance' tunes are speeded up slow airs it is therefore reasonable to say that the real roots of ITM is music for social function other than dancing, i.e. music for listening, for comfort, for celebration, for spiritual means etc. I reckon the dancing aspect probably came with the music for celebration but I can't imagine people dancing to a slow air lametning the death of someone!
Incidentally I previously mentioned people like Tommy Potts, Con Cassidy and Martin Hayes because they have taken the music in directions where dancing to it would be either extremely difficult, impossible or just plain silly. If people think the music and dance are inseparable then that means these great musicians were doing things counter to the tradition.
My argument is that if you look beyond the dancing aspect to the original social function as music for expression then these musicians are in fact closer to the tradition than those who stick religiously to dance music tempi, dynamics and rhythm.
Rhythm stems from hard repetitive labour- whether your breaking rocks or sawing wood or whatever-when done to a rhythm makes it easier and more bearable. Music is often put to it, e.g: Scottish Walking songs and songs sung by African American slaves while building railroads etc. And for all those who think chickens evolved are wrong, chickens are sentient beings created by thier own magic for us to eat!
I did say dance music. The origins of all music does come from rhythm, then parts evolve to a stage where whether it speeds up or slows down, to become music for listening to, all depending on countless chance circumstances within countless societies and evolution of culture over thousands of years
Scottish Wa*u*lking songs were used to keep time when "waulking" cloth/wool - softening it after it had been soaked in sheep's urine and dired by scrunching it up then stretching it.
Frisbee, the trouble is that I'm not inclined to believe the musicians you cite are performing for social function, I think they're performing for artistic and (if you allow me some healthy cynicism) probably for financial reasons as well. I think it's absolutely vital for performing musicians to accept and embrace the fact that their performances are contrary to the tradition - it serves to prevent a build up of arrogance and focuses them on doing the genuinely traditional things like teaching.
I think that as the musicians you mentioned are playing largely dance tunes (or tunes derived from the style of), then the ability to dance and play for dancer is very important for a musician looking to become skilled in playing for listening. Could you also cite some examples of "dance tunes [that] are speeded up slow airs" beyond 'Mist on the Mountain'?
I can't comment on the true origins of dance and music, I'm about 50x too young. Nonetheless, for anyone genuinely interested, I've read the following and found them interesting & informative:
A.L. Lloyd "Folksong in England" ISBN 0586082107
F. Vallely "The Companion to Traditional Irish Music" 1859181481
F. Collinson "The Traditional & National Music of Scotland" 0710012136
I have heard that over time airs become jigs & jigs become songs & so on & so forth.
Don't know about which came 1st ~ tune or dance.
It seems in Irish dance that stepdancers work out specific dances for specific tunes.
But as far as tunes evolving I been told the following tunes began as airs;
Poll Ha'Penny http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/841
Macpherson's Rant (Lament) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3053
I googled 'where do jigs come from & google asked ~
did you means 'pigs?' as in ~ "Where do pigs come from?"
Apparently they started as wild boars. http://www.kidcyber.com.au/topics/farmpiggies.htm
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing? Music First, Dancing Later!
Structured dancing is rather a recent introduction to Ireland. In the late Middle Ages, the Normans brought dances into Ireland. The two Gaelic words for dancing “Damhsa” and “Rinnce” are French in origin. Before this the Irish just used to leap about at haphazard to the music. This older custom seems to be returning, see any Altan gig, for instance!
I know this is a bit late but I only got back to a computer now to respond to this absolutely mindless remark from andy@newcastle
'Frisbee, the trouble is that I'm not inclined to believe the musicians you cite are performing for social function, I think they're performing for artistic and (if you allow me some healthy cynicism) probably for financial reasons as well.'
What the hell is wrong with performing ITM for artistic reasons?!!! Any serious musician should treat ITM as an art-form. Pretty much all the top musicians in ITM consider it an art-form, it's only people with average/poor ability who seem to consider it wrong to treat ITM as an art-form.
As for talking about these musicians doing it for financial gain, when it comes to Tommy Potts and Con Cassidy that's absolutely laughable, I don't think either of them made much at all from ITM and they were certainly not in it for the money. Poor old Tommy Potts was completely misunderstood in his time and pretty much neglected until after his death, now he is citted as an influence by most of the top players.
Martin Hayes is someone I know so I'm a bit wary of speaking for him regarding Andy's outlandish claims. All I'll say is that he is 100% commited to the music and money doesn't even come into his thoughts about music. Incidentally he sure knows how to play for the dancers as anyone who's seen him perform with the Tulla Ceilí band will testify.
So Andy, what you think of as 'healthy cynicism' is in fact offensive and immature. I'm a cynic by nature and I know there are some people in ITM mainly for the money and they come up with all sorts of gimmicks to improve their chances of financial gain however Martin Hayes is far from being like that. He is like Tommy Potts and Con Cassidy before him a genuine musician with 100% commitment to the music and anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't have a clue and is blinded by some kind of prejudice generated through ignorance of the traditions these great musicians come from.
My point was somewhat misinterpreted. All I mean by it was, how many of these people, if given the choice, would have gone miles from their homes and their families to play music if not for the fact that they needed money to live from? Surely they would rather have sat with their friends and played tunes? I can't claim to know these people but I know enough professional musicians to know that, if given the choice between being with their friends and family and playing tunes, or travelling hundreds of miles to play for complete strangers (in the case of Tommy Potts, who weren't always going really to appreciate it), they'd go for the former. Are you honestly claiming that a musicians love for his music would override that of his love for his family?
I'm sorry you find my outlook offensive. Perhaps it stems from the fact that when I posted that I'd just come back from a week of pretty much constant rehearsal and peformance for frankly bugger all pay at the opposite end of the country - making me realise that actually I'd rather stay in Newcastle with my friends then go to Devon and perform. But I won't apologise for my opinions, if you view them objectively you'll hopefully realise they're fair and based upon a generalisation of musicians, as opposed to the individuals you cite relative to others.
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes ~
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes
and eyes and ears and mouth and nose,
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes
nine, nine, nein, it always helps to at least check out the original post don't you think? Even if you don't, I do...
For all you bodhranists ~ hands, feet, body slappin' hambone, God probably first blessed us with the rhythm that drives us all, the heart, so if we were to really take a leap of faith into the deep end and come up with origins ~ it's rhythm, percussion, the simple act of a heart beating and putting one foot in front of the other.
If we take it that a lot of dance is just that, one foot in front of the other, and that walking or marching is also a 'step' in dance, a basic beginning ~ we're talking basics when we're talking origins ~ well, then, if walking can be dancing, dance was the forerunner of us taking those basics further and starting to knock things together, slap ourselves and grunt or hum something as we strolled along through life and evolution thinking about food, shelter or other motivating forces like sex...
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes ~
Andy, not all professional musicians just want to stay at home with their families. Some actually love going around the world playing their music for people, some even bring their families with them. There are few greater experiences than playing your best for an appreciative audience, of course it's important to have home time and most touring musicians with families ensure they get this necessary home time. They're not touring every night of the week you know!
There are some touring musicians who literally can't do anything else and perhaps they wouldn't want to do anything else. Some even sacrifice a potential family life for their love of the road. I presume you've heard of the old troubadour tradition. well it's very much alive in some musicians hearts. It is simply natural for them to keep touring and playing to strangers, eventually some of these strangers can become very close friends remember. I've met pretty much all my friends through music and I only ever see some of them when I visit certain places or they visit me.
So please don't be so cynical about all professional trad musicians. It is a simple fact that many of them just do it because they love it and any financial rewards (which aren't nearly as much as you might think) are a very welcome support. There are some who are just in it for the money and you can normally spot them by the commercial nature of their records and shows, watered down music coupled with stage pyrotechnics and so on. If you think any of the musicians I refer to are like this then you are completely wrong.
Anyway, my main point which seems to be lost at this stage is that I think it is wrong to criticise players like Tommy Potts, Con Cassidy and Martin Hayes for taking the music away from it's 'dancing roots' for expressive (not commercial) purposes because I believe ITM's original roots is not music for dancing.
Just to add to this there is a whole tradition of travelling musicians in Ireland who went from place to place playing and teaching music, John Doherty and Padraic O'Keeffe being two major examples. There's not miuch difference between this and touring the world, it's just on a larger scale.
'Visiting houses' were not uncommon in Eire, and many came visiting without any monetary reward on offer, and music and dance were the mix with chat and the rest of the craic. The pay was in that, and sometimes, if there was any precious liquor about, poteen, the musicians would get a dram to warm themselves, and they would get pride of place near the fire on a cold evening... The accounts of such gatherings are endless, though maybe less so in our modern times. Yes, folks walked amazing distances for a good time with friends and the pleasures of music and dance...
Ceolachan - Now musicians fly amazing distances for a good time with friends, strangers and the pleasures of music (and sometimes dance), concert/workshop fees for genuine musicians are generally priced so expenses are covered and a decent wage is generated, what's wrong with that? John Doherty would likely do the same thing today. Wherever he travelled he was given a place to stay, meals, drink and so on, in other words he has provided with the means to live which is no different to what most professional trad musicians are provided with. Some make a bit more than this and so they have nicer cars, bigger houses and so on but sometimes they actually deserve this extra success because they worked bloody hard for it. I'm just sick of the kind of cynical begrudgery of some of you guys out there which puts all creative professional trad musicians in the same boat as the less creative, commercially minded one's.
And finally.......
What is it with people calling Ireland 'Eire', no one I know calls it 'Eire' and I live here! If you want to say Ireland in Irish the proper term is 'Eireann', but very few Irish people say that when speaking English, we just say Ireland, so please stop with the whole 'Eire' thing, it makes me cringe every time I see it.
Hey, I'm not averse to income, my comment was just to say it isn't the only reason... I and others still will go out of our way for the craic, and that includes some 'professional' musicians who can and do get a good price for their 'performances' and 'workshops'... Don't read into what I say what I had no intention of meaning or suggesting. I never said 'income' was bad or wrong, and didn't suggest it either... I said 'not every pull of Johnny Doherty's bow', I didn't say anything else... Stop projecting...
And finally, though I suspect you may not be the sort to accept that ~
Are you in a bad mood, or do you have issues with me?? Why rag one and be petty about whether or not I choose to say Eire or Ireland, that, to be blunt, is a load of crap... Do as you and your friends will and don't give me shight because I don't follow suit... And generalizing may serve an end, but not everybody has to do or does as you say... Go out and kick a cat or something, shoot squirrels, run over a hedge hog, get your angst dealt with...
Maybe frisbee could practice knocking squirrels out of trees with a frisbee. That's sure to expend some steam in the process, or wind him up tighter... We could start a new craze, like skeet or trap shooting.
The more of the little yankee blighters we get rid of, the better. and if we can eat them, well, even better still - less waste.
Mind, I think you're supposed to be careful about the brains. Many years ago there was a series of programmes on BBC2 about diseases of the future - ones which were only just beginning to be noted and may become a problem. One of the ones they covered was a mystery disease that struck, at that time, homosexuals, people in Haiti, and heroine addicts in the States. That one turned out to be AIDS. There was another programme about people who ate squirrel brains as a delicacy and got a brain-debilitating disease - that one was variant CJD ... or at least a type of it.
Now, with our curry, can we find a side-dish to use up the moles?
I'd like to know, benhall....... do you really have something against yankee blighters in general?....... or is it just squirrel on your brain?
I'm asking real friendly-like
Where I grew up in South Wales, morning star, there used to be red squirrels. They were beautiful - and native. Grey squirrels were imported. I have no idea whether it was deliberate or not, but gradually they have all but wiped out the natives, throughout the UK. They've done so by being incredibly aggressive, particularly in their search for food.
This also makes them an absolute pest in gardens, as they dig everywhere, either burying nuts, or digging indiscriminately trying to find them again, since they can't remember where they put them. It also means that, although my garden is completely surrounded by nut trees, *I* never get any, because those pesky grey squirrels pick 'em before they're ripe.
The red squirrels were shy, but they were so abundant that *still* you would often see one. I haven't seen one for about 40 years.
I do know that the rate of pay for traditional musicians usually lurks somewhere between "not very good" and "frankly shocking". I've never suggested any professional trad musicians do it to get rich, nor have I attempted to suggest that Tommy Potts, Con Cassidy and Martin Hayes only became professional musicians for financial reward. Certainly in Tommy Potts' case, it would be reasonable conclusion that he never saw much financial gain in his life. Nor do I disaprove of bands like Flook touring the world and presumably making themselves a decent living.
My suggestion that most professional musicians feel stronger ties to their families than to their music manifests itself in the number of well known groups that either temporarily disband, replace members or restrict their touring due to family commitments. Of course there are exceptions to this, but only a tiny fraction of musicians I've met feel this way. But perhaps in other regions of the UK and Ireland things are different.
Re: the question, well, personally (as I've said many times), I think traditional music has always been functional, the development of it as an art form is a recent thing. That's not to say I'm against this, I really enjoy arranging material in a manner as so to give it artistic merit, but to my mind this isn't traditional. I also think that whatever the true origins of trad, and whatever we're doing with it today, we need to accept that what people are doing today has passed through a phase of dance. And (at least to me) to not study it would be rather like an engineer learning about the steam engine, and learning how nuclear power plants are built without ever considering the internal combustion engine, because that wasn't either where everything started or where it's heading.
Thank you benhall. I understand -it's sort of like the sparrows from England being better survivors than the American songbirds -thus squeezing many of them out of existence. I don't have time to look up all the facts right now, but this is what I remember learning about them. The humans, sadly, were even a worse influence on the indigenous.....
morning star - many apologies for the sparrows. they're really nice here and, paradoxically, a couple of times in recent years there have been reports here of their numbers dwindling ...
Sorry Ben, I understand moles taste awful. Squirrel is alright as are some rats, and possum is passible... I have never considered eating the brains though, which it seems was a good thing. I've only had squirrel fixed the same way you would rabbit. I agree with you about the pesky greys, just rats with furry tales. I also prefer the reds. We have a few places where they are still holding on here in the Northwest... Maybe if we got the TV chefs to start promoting grey squirrel we could get a hand on reducing their numbers in a big way. They could be sold in street markets on a stick, barbecued...
Andy, I've had the pleasure of Con Cassidy's company and I never saw an exchange of money, but I would have been glad to see him get his due. He was, like many fine musicians I've known, a generous man.
It is curious, or not, as I don't find it surprising, that so many second rate musicians, and some pretty inept, are often found complaining that they can't make a living playing the music. Attached to such musicians seems to also be a big ego, having rated themselves considerably high on the chain, inflating their own ego and expectations. Those who are exceptional and talented, that I've known, have never had a problem with someone coming along and offering them money for their time.
It seems we have swayed away from the original topic on several strands?
Why not just Ireland? Traditional music is the same whether played in Donegal or Derry, Cavan or Fermanagh or anywhere else on the island. Whatever about the political world, I would contend that the border has little relevance to traditional musicians.
Relatively, ceolachan, relatively. Considering the number of hours a group will put in to be able to give a full performance, the pay isn't great. I can't establish whether or not there's a subtle hint of suggestion in your post, but I'm going to presume that's just me slightly misreading it. Although, for the record (incase there was some implication in your post), I have no pretentions about being able to make a living as a trad musician - I'm simply not good enough. That really is off topic though.....
However, there are many very talented musicians who, eventually, will concede that a regular job is required and diversify into related sectors (recording, education, promotion etc) - meaning we see less of them as performing musicians. Which is a bit of a shame. Although I think there is a distinction between the scene in Ireland and in NE England - I suspect there is more money (and funding) available in Ireland.
I'd say the majority of musicians you encounter at pub sessions up here play or have played in ceilidh bands. Maybe not the "pure" tradition but there is a continuity of sorts
Some of them nearly every weekend. Even I've been known to pluck out a few notes for the willow strippers from time to time. Weddings, parties, anything, as the saying goes.
No, no, no Andy, no hints, I am too much foot-in-mouth for that ~ nothing at all referring to anyone here, and definitely not you... What catches me is that on the whole, at least how I was feeling at the time, I was actually in agreement, just wanting to strike some balance, if clumsily done...
The other considerations to a 'rounded' life, are our loved ones, and that is not an unusual and important part of the decision not to 'tour'. I suppose the other consideration can be our own lazyiness, not that musicians are necessarily known for that.
Yes, there are a load of talented folk about, as there always have been, who we don't all get to catch in the running circuit of who's on tour or has recorded. My #1 loves musician wise are in many cases amongst that. I can think of several, easily, superb musicians who kept their talents local and amongst family and friends, and I lucked out in being able to catch that, to share it. As to income, if you go back to the time when it might include a shot of poteen, home baked bread and home churned butter, maybe a chicken for the pot or a bag of potatoes ~ that wasn't bad pay when there was little pay for anyone...
I like that fidkid, I should have thought of that one for a laugh... In house gatherings too there was usually a bit of music before the dance got started...
'Ceili bands' ~ what isn't 'pure' about that? I suppose that could be at times considered 'something else' if it is meant in a narrow way, in the 'official' sense? Most of the musicians I knew and had great respect for played for dance too, and often regularly, and it might not be specificly the official dance commission 'ceili' dances, but it was dance and it was often in the company of other musicians.
Sorry Nine, I'm not sure of your point here. I can't see how Scotland could be included as part of Ireland just because good Irish music is played there. Using this criteria we'd have to include half the world!
Actually Nine we're both singing from the same hymn sheet that there are already too many divisions. I was really trying to stem this phenomenon of further dividing Ireland into two separate units which musically doesn't make any sense.
Not at all, c, I certainly took no offence, and wasn't inclined to think that was how you meant it. As I said, I didn't think you meant it that way, just wanted to make sure.
I've never had the pleasure of dancing to one of the "ceili band" ceili bands (as opposed to just groups of musicians playing for ceili or whatever the plural of ceili is - ceilaex perhaps?) As a notion I think it kicked off around the dancehall era? Have to admit, I'm quite fond of making a set in whatever space there is and dancing in people's houses. Although things do get broken....
Which came first the music or the dancing?
Which came first the music or the dancing?
Simple question really, were reels, jigs and so on originally pieces of music that people later put dance steps to or vice-versa?
I'm pretty sure of the answer myself but I'd be interested in a discussion on the issue.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
the chicken
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Kheelch
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Well there is a coincidence for ya, I just had this argument with someone about the chicken or the egg. Apparently the answer is in Genesis 1:20
As for the music or the dance. I reckon its a lot greyer than you would think.
I would be inclined to believe that the rythm came first, then the dancing and then the melody.
It all depents on whether you regard a bodhran player as a musician
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by session savage
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
The egg came before the chicken. Chickens evolved from egg laying, non-chicken, ancestors.
- Chris
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
They both came together!
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by cos
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Here is a thought: just like instrumentalists, dancers are music makers. If you look at it like that, dance is music.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Either way it started with Cooley's Reel;
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Chicken Dance or Egg Jig?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
In many cases the dancing came first and the musicians had to write new music---often the ideas for the new tunes came from existing airs and laments.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
The Hokey Pokey is much older than the Chicken Dance.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by brianc
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Kennedy; you are saying there were dances (rhythm) which were performed * but no one played (or hummed) a melody. At the same time there were airs to which no one danced. Eventually the 2 parts came together. Neither came 1st?
*{I know which came 1st the Irish session or gigs?}
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Reverend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
The hokey pokey is demonic. No jest.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Muse, no, not like that---for many tunes (not all), the dance came first, meaning there was this hornpipe dance that people knew, there were already existing melodies for it, but people wanted a greater variety of melodies and so the musicians composed new ones to fit the existing form and rhythm---sometimes brand new melodies, and sometimes melodies borrowed from existing airs and laments that they sped up and shaped to fit the dance. Did I explain it better that time?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
The beer ... I think ...
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Adam and Eve McEden
Before they fouled earth with their breedin
Ate of the snake's fig, then they danced to his jig
So God yanked 'em and shrugged,
'I'm just weedin'
--Wm. Ni Shkspr
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
The dance and the music always comes out at the same time. The Twist came out with the Twist. The Monster Mash came out with Monster Mash. The Macarena came out with the Macarena. Etc.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
My understanding, as it relates to ITM, is that around 300 years ago people were arriving back to Ireland from other parts of Europe after learning dances. They didn't have any means of recording the music, so they approached local players and asked, "Can you play something so we can dance like this?" And the musician took the Irish melodies in his or her head and reinvented them with the danceable rhythm. The rest is history.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
well for me this is a bit of a no brainer, of course the music came first because as 'hard to pin down' says 'why would you be dancin around if there was no music huh?'
Many of the tunes people dance to now and way back then were originally songs which were then transfered to instruments. The dancing aspect would obviously had to have come after this and while many tunes have probably been written for the dance since, surely the original function of the music was not for dancing but rather for other social means such as songs to sing while working, songs of celebration and songs of lamentation.
kennedy seems a bit confused when she says
'the dance came first, meaning there was this hornpipe dance that people knew, there were already existing melodies for it, but people wanted a greater variety of melodies and so the musicians composed new ones to fit the existing form and rhythm---sometimes brand new melodies, and sometimes melodies borrowed from existing airs and laments that they sped up and shaped to fit the dance.'
So kennedy you've stated the dance came first but then said there were already existing melodies for the hornpipe dance when people started dancing the hornpipe, in other words people adopted already existing music for this hornpipe dance, therefore the music came first! I know more and more tunes were then created but this doesn't hide the fact that the music came before the dance and the rhythms we know as reel, jig, hornpipe etc., were not originally dancing rhythms they were just the rhythms of songs and tunes which dancers adapted for dancing. Perhaps you mean that the term hornpipe originated through dancers, this is possibly true but is there any proof of this?
Therefore is it not reasonable for musicians to treat ITM as music for listening rather than music for dancing? Tommy Potts, Con Cassidy, Martin Hayes and many others have been criticised for taking the music out of its 'dancing roots' but are they not simply going back further into the music's 'listening roots'? Paddy Fahey has explicitly stated his tunes are for listening rather than dancing and anyone who has heard him playing will understand his point of view. He plays the music at a very relaxed pace that would surely be too slow for most dancers. Yet it is much more satisfying for me as a listener to hear him play his tunes at this pace rather than hear some ceílí band battering it out at 100mph.
I enjoy ITM primarily as a listener and performer, I don't dance to it and don't particularly see the need to appreciate the dance aspect of the tradition, yet some people see it as essential.
I don't buy this whole argument 'you can't know the music unless you know the dance', to me all I have to do is listen instensely to great musicians playing the music and I have all the info I need. The dancing can be a great thing to witness and an entertaining addition to the music (particularly sean-nós dancing) but considering the real roots of this music is the dancing as essential as some people make out?
To me this is only true if your primary reason for playing ITM is to play it for dancers. Is it not valid to just treat ITM as music for listening and personal expression rather than being a tool for the dancers?!!
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Oh and 'sbhikes', dance and music cannot possibly come at the same time, the contrived dances you mentioned were manufactured for popular consumption and the style of music they put the dances to were already there. To quote wikipedia
"The Twist was a rock and roll dance popular in the early 1960s named after the song that originated it, The Twist. It was the first major international rock and roll dance style in which the couples did not have to touch each other while dancing.
The dance was first popularized by Chubby Checker in 1960 with a hit cover of the 1959 B-side and minor hit "The Twist" written by Hank Ballard."
In other words Hank Ballard wrote a song called 'The Twist' which was a 12 bar blues in style, he and his band then contrived some twisting movements to go along with the music thus creating the dance form known as 'The Twist' so any tunes written for Twisting were therefore based on the style of 12 bar blues used in the original song.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Based on Chubby Checker's physique, my guess is the music came first.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
The question wasn't 'music', it was as stated, reels and jigs:
However, both have and do exist without the other, for example, the silent kolos of Kosovo and Hercegovena...
"Simple question really, were reels, jigs and so on originally pieces of music that people later put dance steps to or vice-versa?"
In this case, yes, it is a 'no brainer' ~ dance, though they kind of chase each other, like the famous oroboros, the snake eating it's own tail. As long as it grows as fast as it eats things will be OK...
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ceolachan
NOTE ~ "reel" and "jig" originally referred to dance, not the music that accompanied it...
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
The Hokey Kokey is an ironic indictment of poor manual handling techniques that were frequently used in Lancashire cotton mills. The verses deal with a suitable warm-up for the potential man-handler: put you left leg in, your left left in, in / out, in / out, shake it all about (the industry standard manual handling adivce was that a worker that had done a full and proper warm up prior to working would protect him from serious lumbar issues that would prevent him from working).
The chorus focused upon the new improved methods - namely "knees bent, arms straight" thus keeping the back from being damaged. It is included in on of Vaughan Williams' collections, and was cited by Ewan McColl as a classic example of the working class struggle manifesting itself through folk song.
On a more serious note, I'm very agin people becoming too comfortable with the separation of music and dance. One of the best things I ever did for my playing was take up dance. Whether or not it is essential is debateable, but certainly the players who I have the greatest respect for all seem to be capable ceilidh dancers at the very least, and all will take up the opportunity to dance if it ever presents itself. In my playing as part of a group I strive to make people move physically, secondary is to make them think "wow, what artistic and technically skilled playing and arrangement" - and I think that's more achievable if the musician has dancing experience.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
A youtube clip of some irish dancing without music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtHxqtkWq2Y
whaddya think?
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by shelagh
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Dear hardtopindown;
You are so warped in the weave you mistake the subject title for the question:
"Simple question really, were reels, jigs and so on originally pieces of music that people later put dance steps to or vice-versa?"
Give ceolachan more credit.
Kennedy I think you are really on to something about the evolution of dance & the development of new melodies (more tunes). But it really is a different thread.
Anyway I live in California where many people still noodle dance. It is really primeval. In a time before rhythm people made sounds & move around. It is that hypnotic think that happens when you stare into a fire, or imbibe imbibibals.
It was the dance that came 1st.
Way, way, way back everyone was doing this moving about & making sounds all without rhythm. Then, one of the move abouters started it. With their feet, clapping hands, & chanting (oh, that's pre-song) 1- 2 7-8-9. all the sound makers were in a trance anyway so they got into the grove. It was long long ago & I think after the 1st session they had a slip jig. That was the dance & the tune for nearly 1,000 years. No one knew about saddness so laments came much later.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Chill?
Reading the question is not reason enough for sadness.
"Have to scroll to the top . . . ?"
Someone needs noodle time.
Warp, thread, weave, looms, webster's
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Excuse me frisbee but the door is wide open.
On the subject of clarity ~ 'tis certainly a blessing to be understood ~ OOh but some of us are ~
Hard
to
pinDown
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Frisbee, I'm not confused---my memory is a little fuzzy, however, and I can't remember exactly where I read about dances coming into Ireland from other places and the local musicians responding with new music. I did read it somewhere, though. It's not a coincidence that many of the reels, jigs, hornpipes, slides, polkas, and other tunes we know are usually about 200 years old---it was about that long ago that European dancing, especially from France and Italy, came into fashion. It happened in Scotland too---the upper classes went to France, learned the dances there, and came back wanting to continue dancing at home---and the local musicians were happy to adapt.
I'm not saying there were no dances native to Ireland, only that many of the tunes that have come down to us were in response to the fashionable new dances of the 18th and 19th century. Mazurkas and schottishes and polkas were not originally Irish, as far as I know, and yet we now have many of these tunes within the tradition.
And if you need an example of local melodies being adapted for new settings, look to some of the tunes Junior Crehan composed. He created the jig the "Mist Covered Mountain" from a much older air (of the same name and other names), and I believe the hornpipe "Caislean an Oir" from "The Priest Lament"---it's a common device in Irish traditional music.
Now, as for your claim, "this doesn't hide the fact that the music came before the dance and the rhythms we know as reel, jig, hornpipe etc., were not originally dancing rhythms they were just the rhythms of songs and tunes which dancers adapted for dancing"---I don't know how you can prove this. Were you around the first time anyone ever played a jig? Did you see whether there was someone dancing to it? It's like trying to argue the existence of heaven---no one has any recorded proof, so people come up with all sorts of fantastic ideas. As for me, I don't know. Can't know.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I agree that rhythm originally set humans in motion - everything else followed in a wonderfully chaotic way, probably.
(I was going to say that chickens evolved from weird looking swimming reptile thingies ..... oh never mind)
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by morning star
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I would have thought that most things evolve in such a way that many parallel paths of change happen and interact with each other along the way. Every now and again that interaction leads to a new pathway or line of evolution. So it is not a straight line but lots of squiggly lines transecting each other.
I very much doubt that someone composed a tune and called it a reel specifying the beats etc and then asked a dance friend to choreograph a dance. Similarily I doubt that the full steps of the Reel were choreographed and then passed on to a musician to write a melody fitting into that framework.
With the Sets (dances), I believe some Irish soldiers returned from the continent having learned those group dances. They asked the musicians to adapt exisiting tunes to give those group dances an Irish feel. That is an entirely different process.
In African culture as far as I know from TV docos, there has long been a tradition of dancing to beat without melody, not that they dont have a melody tradition as well.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Donough
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Oh, oh, kennedy, you've opened the 'performance' door!
"fashion........upper classes...."
Dance, music, and other arts had and have drawn on folklore and folk art. The manifestation of contrived and formal dance and music is not necessarily an indication of their origins.
Choreographers and composers do, of course, have Original Performances, with or without giving credit to their rustic sources.
This all has little to do with the primal stirrings in quiet communities which may eventually develop into specific dances and their accompanying tunes.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Brrrr... it's getting chilly in here. Could someone please close the performance door?
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Free - I WAS talking about music and dance or at least how things in general evolve. Those broad principles probably apply to how dance music came into being.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Donough
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Irish music cant be looked at with solid clear boundaries, it's constantly evolving and was always something that has changed gradually over time with foreign influences-(reels come from Scotland, polkas from Bohemia etc), mixing with the already existing musical styles. Dancing also would have changed over time, and was essential for music, and when it comes to irish dance music, the music and dance are symbiotic.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by poldebrun
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
dancing was never essential for slow airs was it? seeing as many 'dance' tunes are speeded up slow airs it is therefore reasonable to say that the real roots of ITM is music for social function other than dancing, i.e. music for listening, for comfort, for celebration, for spiritual means etc. I reckon the dancing aspect probably came with the music for celebration but I can't imagine people dancing to a slow air lametning the death of someone!
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Incidentally I previously mentioned people like Tommy Potts, Con Cassidy and Martin Hayes because they have taken the music in directions where dancing to it would be either extremely difficult, impossible or just plain silly. If people think the music and dance are inseparable then that means these great musicians were doing things counter to the tradition.
My argument is that if you look beyond the dancing aspect to the original social function as music for expression then these musicians are in fact closer to the tradition than those who stick religiously to dance music tempi, dynamics and rhythm.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Rhythm stems from hard repetitive labour- whether your breaking rocks or sawing wood or whatever-when done to a rhythm makes it easier and more bearable. Music is often put to it, e.g: Scottish Walking songs and songs sung by African American slaves while building railroads etc. And for all those who think chickens evolved are wrong, chickens are sentient beings created by thier own magic for us to eat!
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by poldebrun
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I did say dance music. The origins of all music does come from rhythm, then parts evolve to a stage where whether it speeds up or slows down, to become music for listening to, all depending on countless chance circumstances within countless societies and evolution of culture over thousands of years
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by poldebrun
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Scottish Wa*u*lking songs were used to keep time when "waulking" cloth/wool - softening it after it had been soaked in sheep's urine and dired by scrunching it up then stretching it.
Frisbee, the trouble is that I'm not inclined to believe the musicians you cite are performing for social function, I think they're performing for artistic and (if you allow me some healthy cynicism) probably for financial reasons as well. I think it's absolutely vital for performing musicians to accept and embrace the fact that their performances are contrary to the tradition - it serves to prevent a build up of arrogance and focuses them on doing the genuinely traditional things like teaching.
I think that as the musicians you mentioned are playing largely dance tunes (or tunes derived from the style of), then the ability to dance and play for dancer is very important for a musician looking to become skilled in playing for listening. Could you also cite some examples of "dance tunes [that] are speeded up slow airs" beyond 'Mist on the Mountain'?
I can't comment on the true origins of dance and music, I'm about 50x too young. Nonetheless, for anyone genuinely interested, I've read the following and found them interesting & informative:
A.L. Lloyd "Folksong in England" ISBN 0586082107
F. Vallely "The Companion to Traditional Irish Music" 1859181481
F. Collinson "The Traditional & National Music of Scotland" 0710012136
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
sorry, wasnt sure how to spell waulking
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by poldebrun
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Im embarrased that all of you sessioneers have completely missed on this one!
"Which came first the music or the dancing?"
The correct answer is:
Neither... It was the beer!
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I have heard that over time airs become jigs & jigs become songs & so on & so forth.
Don't know about which came 1st ~ tune or dance.
It seems in Irish dance that stepdancers work out specific dances for specific tunes.
But as far as tunes evolving I been told the following tunes began as airs;
Poll Ha'Penny
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/841
Macpherson's Rant (Lament)
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3053
I googled 'where do jigs come from & google asked ~
did you means 'pigs?' as in ~ "Where do pigs come from?"
Apparently they started as wild boars.
http://www.kidcyber.com.au/topics/farmpiggies.htm
Then I found 2 versions of a pig jig:
The Price of a (my) pig
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2680
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4114
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by ain't fluffed
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing? Music First, Dancing Later!
Structured dancing is rather a recent introduction to Ireland. In the late Middle Ages, the Normans brought dances into Ireland. The two Gaelic words for dancing “Damhsa” and “Rinnce” are French in origin. Before this the Irish just used to leap about at haphazard to the music. This older custom seems to be returning, see any Altan gig, for instance!
# Posted on August 26th 2007 by dsndfkjasf
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I know this is a bit late but I only got back to a computer now to respond to this absolutely mindless remark from andy@newcastle
'Frisbee, the trouble is that I'm not inclined to believe the musicians you cite are performing for social function, I think they're performing for artistic and (if you allow me some healthy cynicism) probably for financial reasons as well.'
What the hell is wrong with performing ITM for artistic reasons?!!! Any serious musician should treat ITM as an art-form. Pretty much all the top musicians in ITM consider it an art-form, it's only people with average/poor ability who seem to consider it wrong to treat ITM as an art-form.
As for talking about these musicians doing it for financial gain, when it comes to Tommy Potts and Con Cassidy that's absolutely laughable, I don't think either of them made much at all from ITM and they were certainly not in it for the money. Poor old Tommy Potts was completely misunderstood in his time and pretty much neglected until after his death, now he is citted as an influence by most of the top players.
Martin Hayes is someone I know so I'm a bit wary of speaking for him regarding Andy's outlandish claims. All I'll say is that he is 100% commited to the music and money doesn't even come into his thoughts about music. Incidentally he sure knows how to play for the dancers as anyone who's seen him perform with the Tulla Ceilí band will testify.
So Andy, what you think of as 'healthy cynicism' is in fact offensive and immature. I'm a cynic by nature and I know there are some people in ITM mainly for the money and they come up with all sorts of gimmicks to improve their chances of financial gain however Martin Hayes is far from being like that. He is like Tommy Potts and Con Cassidy before him a genuine musician with 100% commitment to the music and anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't have a clue and is blinded by some kind of prejudice generated through ignorance of the traditions these great musicians come from.
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
My point was somewhat misinterpreted. All I mean by it was, how many of these people, if given the choice, would have gone miles from their homes and their families to play music if not for the fact that they needed money to live from? Surely they would rather have sat with their friends and played tunes? I can't claim to know these people but I know enough professional musicians to know that, if given the choice between being with their friends and family and playing tunes, or travelling hundreds of miles to play for complete strangers (in the case of Tommy Potts, who weren't always going really to appreciate it), they'd go for the former. Are you honestly claiming that a musicians love for his music would override that of his love for his family?
I'm sorry you find my outlook offensive. Perhaps it stems from the fact that when I posted that I'd just come back from a week of pretty much constant rehearsal and peformance for frankly bugger all pay at the opposite end of the country - making me realise that actually I'd rather stay in Newcastle with my friends then go to Devon and perform. But I won't apologise for my opinions, if you view them objectively you'll hopefully realise they're fair and based upon a generalisation of musicians, as opposed to the individuals you cite relative to others.
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by Andy V
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes ~
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes
and eyes and ears and mouth and nose,
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/has
nine, nine, nein, it always helps to at least check out the original post don't you think? Even if you don't, I do...
For all you bodhranists ~ hands, feet, body slappin' hambone, God probably first blessed us with the rhythm that drives us all, the heart, so if we were to really take a leap of faith into the deep end and come up with origins ~ it's rhythm, percussion, the simple act of a heart beating and putting one foot in front of the other.
If we take it that a lot of dance is just that, one foot in front of the other, and that walking or marching is also a 'step' in dance, a basic beginning ~ we're talking basics when we're talking origins ~ well, then, if walking can be dancing, dance was the forerunner of us taking those basics further and starting to knock things together, slap ourselves and grunt or hum something as we strolled along through life and evolution thinking about food, shelter or other motivating forces like sex...
Head and shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes ~
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I'm not a part of Martin Hayes family, but I do find his playing with Cahill to bring me joy when I need it.....
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by morning star
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Andy, not all professional musicians just want to stay at home with their families. Some actually love going around the world playing their music for people, some even bring their families with them. There are few greater experiences than playing your best for an appreciative audience, of course it's important to have home time and most touring musicians with families ensure they get this necessary home time. They're not touring every night of the week you know!
There are some touring musicians who literally can't do anything else and perhaps they wouldn't want to do anything else. Some even sacrifice a potential family life for their love of the road. I presume you've heard of the old troubadour tradition. well it's very much alive in some musicians hearts. It is simply natural for them to keep touring and playing to strangers, eventually some of these strangers can become very close friends remember. I've met pretty much all my friends through music and I only ever see some of them when I visit certain places or they visit me.
So please don't be so cynical about all professional trad musicians. It is a simple fact that many of them just do it because they love it and any financial rewards (which aren't nearly as much as you might think) are a very welcome support. There are some who are just in it for the money and you can normally spot them by the commercial nature of their records and shows, watered down music coupled with stage pyrotechnics and so on. If you think any of the musicians I refer to are like this then you are completely wrong.
Anyway, my main point which seems to be lost at this stage is that I think it is wrong to criticise players like Tommy Potts, Con Cassidy and Martin Hayes for taking the music away from it's 'dancing roots' for expressive (not commercial) purposes because I believe ITM's original roots is not music for dancing.
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Just to add to this there is a whole tradition of travelling musicians in Ireland who went from place to place playing and teaching music, John Doherty and Padraic O'Keeffe being two major examples. There's not miuch difference between this and touring the world, it's just on a larger scale.
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
'Visiting houses' were not uncommon in Eire, and many came visiting without any monetary reward on offer, and music and dance were the mix with chat and the rest of the craic. The pay was in that, and sometimes, if there was any precious liquor about, poteen, the musicians would get a dram to warm themselves, and they would get pride of place near the fire on a cold evening... The accounts of such gatherings are endless, though maybe less so in our modern times. Yes, folks walked amazing distances for a good time with friends and the pleasures of music and dance...
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Not every pull of Johnny Doherty's bow had a price tag on it...
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Ceolachan - Now musicians fly amazing distances for a good time with friends, strangers and the pleasures of music (and sometimes dance), concert/workshop fees for genuine musicians are generally priced so expenses are covered and a decent wage is generated, what's wrong with that? John Doherty would likely do the same thing today. Wherever he travelled he was given a place to stay, meals, drink and so on, in other words he has provided with the means to live which is no different to what most professional trad musicians are provided with. Some make a bit more than this and so they have nicer cars, bigger houses and so on but sometimes they actually deserve this extra success because they worked bloody hard for it. I'm just sick of the kind of cynical begrudgery of some of you guys out there which puts all creative professional trad musicians in the same boat as the less creative, commercially minded one's.
And finally.......
What is it with people calling Ireland 'Eire', no one I know calls it 'Eire' and I live here! If you want to say Ireland in Irish the proper term is 'Eireann', but very few Irish people say that when speaking English, we just say Ireland, so please stop with the whole 'Eire' thing, it makes me cringe every time I see it.
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Hey, I'm not averse to income, my comment was just to say it isn't the only reason... I and others still will go out of our way for the craic, and that includes some 'professional' musicians who can and do get a good price for their 'performances' and 'workshops'... Don't read into what I say what I had no intention of meaning or suggesting. I never said 'income' was bad or wrong, and didn't suggest it either... I said 'not every pull of Johnny Doherty's bow', I didn't say anything else... Stop projecting...
And finally, though I suspect you may not be the sort to accept that ~
Are you in a bad mood, or do you have issues with me?? Why rag one and be petty about whether or not I choose to say Eire or Ireland, that, to be blunt, is a load of crap... Do as you and your friends will and don't give me shight because I don't follow suit... And generalizing may serve an end, but not everybody has to do or does as you say... Go out and kick a cat or something, shoot squirrels, run over a hedge hog, get your angst dealt with...
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ceolachan
To Eire or not, that isn't even worth consideration ~
I happen to be fond of 'Eire'...including the word...
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I've got some squirrels for frisbee to shoot ... and some moles (pesky things) ... and I've got two cats to kick ...
???
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Grey squirrel curry, your place or mine Ben?
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Maybe frisbee could practice knocking squirrels out of trees with a frisbee. That's sure to expend some steam in the process, or wind him up tighter... We could start a new craze, like skeet or trap shooting.
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Grey squirrel curry? Great!
The more of the little yankee blighters we get rid of, the better. and if we can eat them, well, even better still - less waste.
Mind, I think you're supposed to be careful about the brains. Many years ago there was a series of programmes on BBC2 about diseases of the future - ones which were only just beginning to be noted and may become a problem. One of the ones they covered was a mystery disease that struck, at that time, homosexuals, people in Haiti, and heroine addicts in the States. That one turned out to be AIDS. There was another programme about people who ate squirrel brains as a delicacy and got a brain-debilitating disease - that one was variant CJD ... or at least a type of it.
Now, with our curry, can we find a side-dish to use up the moles?
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Oh, and by the way, ceolachan, you're welcome here any time. Provided you can put up with the incessant music.
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I'd like to know, benhall....... do you really have something against yankee blighters in general?....... or is it just squirrel on your brain?
I'm asking real friendly-like
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by morning star
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Where I grew up in South Wales, morning star, there used to be red squirrels. They were beautiful - and native. Grey squirrels were imported. I have no idea whether it was deliberate or not, but gradually they have all but wiped out the natives, throughout the UK. They've done so by being incredibly aggressive, particularly in their search for food.
This also makes them an absolute pest in gardens, as they dig everywhere, either burying nuts, or digging indiscriminately trying to find them again, since they can't remember where they put them. It also means that, although my garden is completely surrounded by nut trees, *I* never get any, because those pesky grey squirrels pick 'em before they're ripe.
The red squirrels were shy, but they were so abundant that *still* you would often see one. I haven't seen one for about 40 years.
Sad isn't it?
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Plenty of red squirrels still to be seen around upper Deeside in Aberdeenshire
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by Bren
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I do know that the rate of pay for traditional musicians usually lurks somewhere between "not very good" and "frankly shocking". I've never suggested any professional trad musicians do it to get rich, nor have I attempted to suggest that Tommy Potts, Con Cassidy and Martin Hayes only became professional musicians for financial reward. Certainly in Tommy Potts' case, it would be reasonable conclusion that he never saw much financial gain in his life. Nor do I disaprove of bands like Flook touring the world and presumably making themselves a decent living.
My suggestion that most professional musicians feel stronger ties to their families than to their music manifests itself in the number of well known groups that either temporarily disband, replace members or restrict their touring due to family commitments. Of course there are exceptions to this, but only a tiny fraction of musicians I've met feel this way. But perhaps in other regions of the UK and Ireland things are different.
Re: the question, well, personally (as I've said many times), I think traditional music has always been functional, the development of it as an art form is a recent thing. That's not to say I'm against this, I really enjoy arranging material in a manner as so to give it artistic merit, but to my mind this isn't traditional. I also think that whatever the true origins of trad, and whatever we're doing with it today, we need to accept that what people are doing today has passed through a phase of dance. And (at least to me) to not study it would be rather like an engineer learning about the steam engine, and learning how nuclear power plants are built without ever considering the internal combustion engine, because that wasn't either where everything started or where it's heading.
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Bren - good. Bring some down, will ya?
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Maybe someone should introduce snakes to eat those pesky squirrels.....
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
We've got snakes here, thanks Al. We got the ones that St Patrick threw out.
Which reminds me: I guess everyone knows this one, but, wtf:
Q: What did St Patrick say when he was driving the snakes out of Ireland?
A: You alright in the back there, lads?
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Thank you benhall. I understand -it's sort of like the sparrows from England being better survivors than the American songbirds -thus squeezing many of them out of existence. I don't have time to look up all the facts right now, but this is what I remember learning about them. The humans, sadly, were even a worse influence on the indigenous.....
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by morning star
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Oooops, missed the clues we were talking about England, not Ireland--ignorant yank that I am.
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
morning star - many apologies for the sparrows. they're really nice here and, paradoxically, a couple of times in recent years there have been reports here of their numbers dwindling ...
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Sorry Ben, I understand moles taste awful. Squirrel is alright as are some rats, and possum is passible... I have never considered eating the brains though, which it seems was a good thing. I've only had squirrel fixed the same way you would rabbit. I agree with you about the pesky greys, just rats with furry tales. I also prefer the reds. We have a few places where they are still holding on here in the Northwest... Maybe if we got the TV chefs to start promoting grey squirrel we could get a hand on reducing their numbers in a big way. They could be sold in street markets on a stick, barbecued...
Andy, I've had the pleasure of Con Cassidy's company and I never saw an exchange of money, but I would have been glad to see him get his due. He was, like many fine musicians I've known, a generous man.
It is curious, or not, as I don't find it surprising, that so many second rate musicians, and some pretty inept, are often found complaining that they can't make a living playing the music. Attached to such musicians seems to also be a big ego, having rated themselves considerably high on the chain, inflating their own ego and expectations. Those who are exceptional and talented, that I've known, have never had a problem with someone coming along and offering them money for their time.
It seems we have swayed away from the original topic on several strands?
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Back on topic, if not obvious, in my real sense of it all, as I define things, openly, the two exist together and originate with the heart...
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Why not just Ireland? Traditional music is the same whether played in Donegal or Derry, Cavan or Fermanagh or anywhere else on the island. Whatever about the political world, I would contend that the border has little relevance to traditional musicians.
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Relatively, ceolachan, relatively. Considering the number of hours a group will put in to be able to give a full performance, the pay isn't great. I can't establish whether or not there's a subtle hint of suggestion in your post, but I'm going to presume that's just me slightly misreading it. Although, for the record (incase there was some implication in your post), I have no pretentions about being able to make a living as a trad musician - I'm simply not good enough. That really is off topic though.....
However, there are many very talented musicians who, eventually, will concede that a regular job is required and diversify into related sectors (recording, education, promotion etc) - meaning we see less of them as performing musicians. Which is a bit of a shame. Although I think there is a distinction between the scene in Ireland and in NE England - I suspect there is more money (and funding) available in Ireland.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I thought that with set dancing, at least, the music usually comes first -- once through the A part.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
I'd say the majority of musicians you encounter at pub sessions up here play or have played in ceilidh bands. Maybe not the "pure" tradition but there is a continuity of sorts
Some of them nearly every weekend. Even I've been known to pluck out a few notes for the willow strippers from time to time. Weddings, parties, anything, as the saying goes.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Bren
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
No, no, no Andy, no hints, I am too much foot-in-mouth for that ~ nothing at all referring to anyone here, and definitely not you... What catches me is that on the whole, at least how I was feeling at the time, I was actually in agreement, just wanting to strike some balance, if clumsily done...
The other considerations to a 'rounded' life, are our loved ones, and that is not an unusual and important part of the decision not to 'tour'. I suppose the other consideration can be our own lazyiness, not that musicians are necessarily known for that.
Yes, there are a load of talented folk about, as there always have been, who we don't all get to catch in the running circuit of who's on tour or has recorded. My #1 loves musician wise are in many cases amongst that. I can think of several, easily, superb musicians who kept their talents local and amongst family and friends, and I lucked out in being able to catch that, to share it. As to income, if you go back to the time when it might include a shot of poteen, home baked bread and home churned butter, maybe a chicken for the pot or a bag of potatoes ~ that wasn't bad pay when there was little pay for anyone...
I like that fidkid, I should have thought of that one for a laugh... In house gatherings too there was usually a bit of music before the dance got started...
'Ceili bands' ~ what isn't 'pure' about that? I suppose that could be at times considered 'something else' if it is meant in a narrow way, in the 'official' sense? Most of the musicians I knew and had great respect for played for dance too, and often regularly, and it might not be specificly the official dance commission 'ceili' dances, but it was dance and it was often in the company of other musicians.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Sorry Nine, I'm not sure of your point here. I can't see how Scotland could be included as part of Ireland just because good Irish music is played there. Using this criteria we'd have to include half the world!
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Actually Nine we're both singing from the same hymn sheet that there are already too many divisions. I was really trying to stem this phenomenon of further dividing Ireland into two separate units which musically doesn't make any sense.
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Which came first the music or the dancing?
Not at all, c, I certainly took no offence, and wasn't inclined to think that was how you meant it. As I said, I didn't think you meant it that way, just wanted to make sure.
I've never had the pleasure of dancing to one of the "ceili band" ceili bands (as opposed to just groups of musicians playing for ceili or whatever the plural of ceili is - ceilaex perhaps?) As a notion I think it kicked off around the dancehall era? Have to admit, I'm quite fond of making a set in whatever space there is and dancing in people's houses. Although things do get broken....
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by Andy V