I love unusual rhythms, and have been searching around all over the internet trying to get together a good collection of slip jigs and slides. I have to admit that I'm perplexed by some of the things I see labeled as slides. I know if it's in 12/8, it obviously meets the criteria. But I see a lot of slides written in 6/8 too. Can any jig with that driving Ya da da Ya da da Ya da da Ya da da rhythm be considered a slide, or are there other criteria I don't know about?
Also, how can you tell for sure what mode something's in? I've found some tunes I like (can't recall where I downloaded them from at this point) that are obviously not in the D major, G Major, A Major keys that my ABC says they are. I know each key has a related dorian, mixolydian, etc. mode... how can you tell which they are? Also, how is mode determined in songs that switch back and forth, with one phrase in dorian and one in major, for example? I left my music theory knowledge behind with high school and now I'm struggling. Help!
Florrie--welcome to the discussion after a year of lurking! I'm curious (knowing that we have many lurkers)--what encouraged you to finally raise your voice?
Here's my understanding of slides, for what it's worth.
Slides are a form of single jig and can be transcribed in 12/8 or 6/8. The reason for using 12/8 is to capture the longer phrasings typical of slides. The rhythm usually relies on a quarter note followed by an eighth note--think of long and short, dah de dah de dah de dah de.... Which is also what distinguishes a single jig from a double jig (mostly eighth notes: da de de da de de). Slides also tend to be played at a faster tempo than other jigs, although here in the States this may not be the rule as much as it is in Ireland, particularly the Sliabh Luachra area where slides are very popular.
I don't think about 12/8 or 6/8 when playing a slide, but the 12/8 format can be useful when writing a tune down simply because it fits the melodic line better of some slides.
As for modes...the discussion on dorian mode offers a link or two that help explain modes. Again, this is less a concern when playing than it is if you try to transcribe a tune. Even then, though, I don't worry too much about what key or mode a tune is in--it's far easier to just use the most efficient key signature, the one that will require the fewest accidentals as you transcribe the tune. Sometimes even this approach seems murky, and then you just have to let your ear decide what the dominant note is. For example, many Eminor/E dorian tunes feature both c naturals and c sharps. You could write them down in either mode, being careful to mark the accidentals. So how do you decide? Ask yourself a few questions: Which occurs more frequently, c naturals or c sharps? Which note plays a more critical role in the melody line? Does any half (or part) of the tune end on a D note? (In which case, favor the c sharp.) End on a G note (favor the c natural).
When the two halves of a tune clearly fall in different modes, you can either change the key signature at the start of the next half, or toss in your accidentals. Either way is "correct." Which half feels like it's in the tune' s dominant key, to you? Go with it.
Bear in mind that this music is an aural one, with a long history of being abused when committed to paper. It's more important to *play* it faithfully, whether or not it fits comfortably into standard music theory and transcription practicies.
And be wary...I've seen *many* tune transcriptions that miss the accidentals or mode shifts. Trust your ear far more than those ink spots on the page.
As far as modes are concerned, the quick answer is that if the guitar player is having trouble finding the cords, it's a model tune! The long answer can be found on lesson #23 at this site. http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/lessons.html
This is 100% over my head, but if you've had some musical training, this should be right up your alley!
Find yourself a set dancing class and then you'll 'feel' the difference between slides, jigs, polkas, reels, expend lots of energy and have the best of craic.
I'm a singer, and so the modal thing finally made sense to me when someone explained it using the tone syllables of the scale. If you read key signatures, this is pretty easy. The mode scales are as follows:
Do-Do = Ionian mode (Major)
Re-Re = Dorian mode
Mi-Mi = Phrygian mode
Fa-Fa = Lydian mode
So-So = Mixolydian mode
La-La = Aeolian mode (natural minor)
Ti-Ti = Locrian mode
Example: a tune is listed as in "G Major" which has one sharp, F#, but the G chords don't sound right, and the tune ends on D. It's in mixolydian mode, which sounds like a major scale, but has a lowered 7th step.
To hear each scale, think of a piano. C-C is major, D-D is dorian, E-E is phrygian, F-F...you get the idea.
I know, I know--the main thing is to hear it, and play it, but sometimes, it is interesting to understand why something sounds "modal." And just once in awhile, when the session Know-It-All (or perhaps you've never met one of those) has irritated you just once too many times, it is very fun to just say, quietly, "Actually, it's in D Dorian" (no sharps or flats, sounds minor). The Know-It-All will, of course, ignore you, but you sound very intellectual...
That's right. And the most popular ones are dorian (which is like a minor scale without the leading tone) and mixolydian (which sounds like you're playing a 7th chord by mistake ). Dorian is by far the most common in Irish music; i want to say the the majority of the minor stuff in IrTrad is dorian, but i don't know for sur; feels that way sometimes.
Each mode has its own distinctive feel. The Web page in Caoimghgin's post has sound clips for all scales and a couple of modal melodies that give you the feel of each mode.
To me, it helps to think in the cycle of 5ths (the sequence of sharps or flats in the key signatures), but that's because i'm a music theory geek.
For example, Dorian "moves" 1 step in the direction of the sharps in the cycle: D minor = 1 flat, D dorian = 0 flats; E minor = 1 sharp, E dorian = 2 sharps; A minor = 0 sharps, A dorian = 1 sharp...
Thanks for all the helpful information. Why I decided to de-lurk --
mostly, I finally had something interesting to say about one of
the tunes. Also when I was floating around looking for info
about modes (and I did notice the post on Dorian mode about
10 minutes after I asked my question), and saw the thread about
who plays what and lives where.
Next questions -- and these are from tunes on another web site,
not this one, but still celtic traditional music --
1) what is a triple hornpipe and
2) what makes something a Strathspey?
I thought I understood a Strathspey to be something with... oh to say
"dotted rhythms going both ways" doesn't exactly describe what I
mean, but I can't think how else to describe it... but then I saw something labeled as a Strathspey that didn't have any dotted
notes at all. So I must be wrong.
In the "tunes" section of this site there's a Strathspey called "The Dreary Plains of Toil".
The thing with trad. music (at least Irish, probably Scottish too) is that it's not always notated they way it's played. For example, a hornpipe is supposed to have a "dotted" rhythm, but that's often not in the sheet music. The sheet music is just to let you know the notes; you're supposed to know how the tune is supposed to "feel". Think of the notes as a form of shorthand, a memory aid.
In order to really learn a folk tune, you have to hear someone else play it. Other than that, you can usually fake it if you know a similar tune, but it's not possible to learn how to play strathspeys just by looking at the notes.
I beleive the "dotted rhythm both ways" is what's called a "Scottish Snap", where the short note is before the dotted note instead of after it (where most are used to hearing it). I'm not sure what else goes into the definition of a Strathspey...
Comments by both Will and G have it right - trad music is a practical rather than formal art and in many instances was originally handed on purely orally/aurally. You can never get into it by relying on the dots. Many fine players both now and in the past were musically illiterate. Listening closely to others and playing from the heart are the best guides - who cares how the musos classify the result. In particular, there's no "right" and "wrong" way of playing - merely variations. So just enjoy !
"I've seen all I can stands, and I cain't stands no more!!" (Quoted from Popeye, 1942 :O)
Being a big fan of the Cape Breton fiddlers, and realizing that this site is dedicated to Irish session music, I have tried to limit my discussions to as little mention of 'home grown' Canadian music as possible. But.... well here goes....
Actually, strathspeys are somewhat of an exception to the 'rule'. Because many strathspeys have dances designed after their rhythms, or are derived from old gaelic songs, they quite often are played as written/sung, or very close to it. The Royal Scottish Country Dance Society publishes its own versions (yes, variations) of tunes, and players need to follow the rhythms set down on paper, or risk the wrath of the dancers. But, Fsnockhart didn't ask about any of this.
Actually, Fsnockhart, you are right in questioning the tune without any 'dots'. It does seem odd to me, as well. I have always thought of strathspeys as having the 'dotted rhythms going both ways'. As well, they usually have little 'runs' of 16th notes, sometimes in groups of three (see The Iron Man), or groups of 4 16th's. Another common feature is that they frequently have a second ending to the B part which runs 4 bars and is quite different from the first ending.
Much of the strathspey is played without slurs, especially those little groups of 3 or 4 16ths. The Scot's snap is what happens when two 16th notes happen together (sandwiched between two dotted eighths). It amounts to a twitch of the bow to articulate the two notes.
Two Scottish strathspeys which really stand out (in the Canadian tradition) are The Bonnie Lass of Bon Accord (J. S. Skinner 18??-1927), and Tullochgorum (which translates roughly as 'The Blue-Green Hills). These tunes are showcases for the virtuosity of the player, featuring bounce bowing, flying string crossings....Skinner composed a set of 6 variations for Tullochgorum which makes "Orange Blossom Special" look like childs play. They are known simply as 'the Skinner Variations'.
Anceltoir has posted several great strathspeys to the tunes section.
Check them out.
Just a quick comment. I presume what is meant by triple hornpipes is the 3/2 hornpipes found in English music - I've yet to come across one in the Irish tradition. Whilst the usual 4/4 (or 2/2) hornpipe has two groups of 4 quarter notes to a bar - ONE-two-three-four TWO-two-three-four - the 'triple' hornpipe has three such groups - ONE-two-three-four TWO-two-three-four THREE-two-three-four.
Or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?
The first time I came across the term `modal tunes´ was in a book called "Learning to Play Old Time Fiddle" by Alan Kaufman, published in the late 70´s by Oak Publications. In another book I also found the term `A to G tunes´ probably because one of the most frequent chord changes in them was from A (either major or minor) to G (major) and back again.... I found that quite helpful when working out acompaniments for those because Caoimghgin is right… At first I had thought that this was kind of an American specialty and I was a little disappointed when I found out that they were just tunes in a minor key…
The way I try to explain it to my students (mostly guitar students) is the following:
Think of a scale in C: C D E F G A B … and give each letter a number, from 1 up to 7.
The first modal scale is the ionian, that goes from 1 to 1 (so even tunes in the very common major keys are modal tunes! At least as long as they keep the mode intact)
The second is the dorian, that goes from D to D (2 to 2).
The phrygian (3 to 3) and lydian (4 to 4) modes are very rare in `modern´ trad. music and can safely be ignored. I only know one tune that has a phrygian `feel´ about it and that lasts only for one bar (it´s called "Breakdown" but is a hornpipe), and no lydian mode tune at all!
The mixolydian mode goes from 5 to 5 (G to G)
and the aeolian from 6 to 6 (A to A).
The locrian (7 to 7) mode again can be ignored because there are no tunes using this mode. Just for fun try composing something in locrian mode (B to B). It will always sound somewhat open-ended and not really satisfying until you finish a line on a C …
Whether a mode sounds major or minor is always defined by the third note of the scale: if the interval between the first and the third note is a major third (two whole steps) it´s a major scale, if it´s a minor third (and whole and a half step) it is a minor scale.
Let´s take the tin whistle (in D) as an example. It is tuned to play a D major scale (two sharps, the F# and the C#) so the above in C applies to the D scale here:
If you want to play something in ionian (major) mode, you´ll find that the keys of D and G (because the C natural is easy to play!) are the easiest to do this in,
A is possible but a little harder (because of the G#), all the other major scales are very hard or downright impossible.
If you want to play in a dorian mode you´ll find it easiest to start the scale on E or A (playing the C natural),
and the mixolydian mode is very easy when you start on A (because the G is played natural in this mode).
Tunes in an aeolian mode usually start on E (again because of the easy C natural) or on B.
I think (I may be wrong!) that the choice of key for many tunes often resulted in the composers´ choice of mode they wanted the tune to be in. They said - more or less consciously: "I want this to be in the aeolian mode", and then started playing in E or A or B.
Fiddle players (and players of other stringed instruments) of course have a lot more leeway in their choice of key, and the freedom to include notes outside the mode or switching back and forth between modes. They are more influenced by the sounds of their instruments in certain keys. Fiddle composers have made frequent use of that freedom by composing tunes in G aeolian or dorian, or D aeolian and dorian, and in the major keys of Bb or Eb. The fact that tunes in these keys are fairly rare in Ireland probably comes from the presence of the many Uillean pipers, whistle players and flutists who, when they want to play one of those tunes, transpose it to a key suitable for their instruments. The result being that most of the major tunes (ionian) are in D and/ or G, and most of the minor (both dorian and aeolian) tunes in E or A.
And the other way round: if a tin whistle player wants (or has) to play something in D dorian he usually takes a C whistle for that. And G mixolydian might be easier on a C whistle than on a D (the whistle player´s equivalent to the guitarist´s using a capo…).
I hope all this makes sense. If not let me know. I always look for better ways to explain music theory (for the sake of my students!). It´s always easy AFTER you have understood it but rarely before…
there is a link under Tune Collections here called "John of the Greeny Cheshire Way".
The collection is dedicated to this type of hornpipe. I bought the book some sixteen or seventeen years ago and the last time I asked (1993) it was out of print. I like the more obscure rhythms and tunes as well and this book is full of them! The link offers ABC files of all hornpipes from the collection.
As far as I can tell the form has died out. In Northumberland one tune called "The Lads of Alnwick" has survived and is sometimes even played in sessions. A friend of mine there calls it a "musical coelocanth" (Never looked that up in a dictionary so I don´t know what it means! A dinosaur?) When "John of the Greeny Cheshire Way" came out, interest in this form was revived in the north east of England, and some people even composed new double hornpipes. A personal favourite of mine is "Dog Leap Stairs" by Alistair Anderson. Another one that is well known, though not frequently played, is "Go to Berwick, Johnny", though that may be due to the recording that Alistair Anderson and his group Syncopace did around 1990.
In some collections and manuscripts double hornpipes have been notated in 3/4 time. Usually they are recognizable because they include a lot of sixteenth notes. But when they don´t it´s easy to confuse them with waltzes (that is when the word hornpipe in the title is missing). One way to distinguish between both types is the age of the tune. Waltzes became popular only during the 19th century, so if the tune is older it´s probably not a waltz (which doesn´t mean it´s a hornpipe). The other method is playing them both ways, and trying to find out what makes more sense. But that´s risky, too...
Some songs in this rhythm have survived as well, mostly in Scotland. And most of the lyrics it seems make fun of the English and a king called Geordie (King George III who is said to have been mentally quite indisposed?) The driving rhythm really sounds quite aggressive. Maybe that´s why they used it frequently for songs like that.
The 4/4 time hornpipes maybe got their name because the dancers kept using some of the old steps with the new music. Both forms seem to have existed in `peaceful coexistence´ (my Northumbrian friend again) all through the 17th and 18th centuries right into the 19th when the 3/2 hornpipes become scarce and the common-time hornpipes much more abundant in music manuscripts and publications.
And maybe another interesting information about the playing of the common-time hornpipes: the dotted style (swinging eight notes) of playing them is said to be a development of the 1850s. Before that time hornpipes were played straight and faster, more like the `modern´ reels. That means that playing a hornpipe `undotted´ is anything but wrong, but perhaps the survival of a more ancient way of playing hornpipes for dancers. The Northumbrians call the dotted style "Newcastle style" (they say it was invented there!) and the straight, faster way "sailor´s style". Again, both forms turn up in large numbers in tune collections and manuscripts dating from the 1850s until today.
(By the way, the difference between hornpipes and reels at that time was that reels consisted of phrases/ parts that were only four bars long while the hornpipes right from the start used the longer eight bar form.)
You can sometimes hear John Offord (compiler of John of the Greeny Cheshire Way) playing 3/2 hornpipes on Tuesday nights at the Cricketers pub in Greenwich. He does n't play them on his own,either!
I think there's a strong tradition of clog and step dancing also in the North West,especially Lancashire and I believe you can hear these tunes up there too. But they're certainly not common which is a pity.
By the way,George III's grandfather,George I, came over from Hannover. He never learned to speak or understand English. Indeed, most of our present so-called ruling family are probably more German than anything else ( the family name was changed during World War I ) so I say: Vive la Republique! (not because of their ancestors,either!)
Two of my favourite hornpipes are Flat Cap and Tom Mellins which go well together. As the site is for Irish tunes I think I should better stop here.
Dave
Since these triple time hornpipes were most popular during the 17th and 18th centuries in England, my guess is that they had been considered very outlandish by the Irish. Especially with England not being considered a friendly neighbour by many Irish in those days (to put it mildly). And because they didn´t have a trad. dance rhythm of their own that resembled it, they probably saw no need to take the tunes over and compose some of their own.
What I find striking about this rhythm is its close relationship to the Swedish polskas and the classical polonaises of baroque music (as both names mean "Polish"), but so far I haven´t found anyone writing or talking about it...
Joerg,
ein Coelocanth ist ein urzeit Fisch, den sie in den achtzigern oder neunzigern aus dem Meer gefischt haben. Ich glaube irgendwo bei Madagascar, wenn ich mich recht erinnere. Es war damals eine grosse Sache, da die Spezies fuer ausgestorben gehalten worden war. Im uebertragenen Sinne heissen jetzt voellig veraltete Dinge Coelocanth. Passt also auf Deine triple hornpipes...
Greetings all,
I just wanted to thank everyone in this discussion and the one a while back who has contributed to the elucidation of this mode business. I've finally pieced it all together. And in addition to general edification, the bit of theory has really helped me understand why some tunes seem to go so well together in a set.
For example, take the following set of jigs: Morrison's, Stan Chapman's (a Jerry Holland tune), and Cliffs of Moher. I recently slapped these three jigs together and was delighted by the combination but didn't really know why.
However, a little analysis reveals the following. Morrison's, being in E minor, ends on an E and Stan Chapman's starts on the same E but in E mixolydian. A nice change from a standard minor to a somewhat unusual mixolydian mode for irish music. The second part of Stan Chapman's, however, modulates interestingly up to the relative major of E mix, which is A major, ending on the A in the lower register. The final tune, Cliffs of Moher, starts of course on A in the upper register in the key (or should I say mode?) of A dorian. Like the fist two tunes in the set, the second tune ends on the same note as the third one begins but in another key (A major to A dorian), which seems to produce another interesting chord change.
I know there are no hard-fast rules for putting tunes together in sets, but knowing a bit of the underlying theory seems to be quite enlightening.
In any case, now I can exert control over the guitar players in sessions by barking out chord changes while maintaining the rhythm with the nazi foot stomping ;}
I think of modes in terms of major scales and drones. For example, in D major if you play the scale from D to D its a straight ahead major scale, or Ionian mode. Played against a E drone the same D major scale played from E to E becomes an E dorian mode, etc.
D drone - DEF#GABC#D = D Ionian
E drone - EF#GABC#DE = E Dorian (minor)
A drone - ABC#DEF#GA = A Mixolydian
B drone - BC#DEF#GAB = B Aeolian (minor)
This way modes are "major" scales played in different contexts. There are more modes but these are the most common modes in Celtic music. All the other keys can be transposed from the example above ( a good way to learn the modes).
Applying this use approach, an accompanist can add an interesting element by simply varying the drones played against the different parts of a tune.
Hello. I'm New here.
Well, Anyway. Strathspeys. I've found the best way to describe the rhythm of a strathspey is his: Play the quavers as the "First and Last of four semi-quavers" NOT as 1 + 3 of a triplet (like a hornpipe!)
Any Help?
Cheers anyway.
Tom
Slides and Modes
Slides and Modes
I love unusual rhythms, and have been searching around all over the internet trying to get together a good collection of slip jigs and slides. I have to admit that I'm perplexed by some of the things I see labeled as slides. I know if it's in 12/8, it obviously meets the criteria. But I see a lot of slides written in 6/8 too. Can any jig with that driving Ya da da Ya da da Ya da da Ya da da rhythm be considered a slide, or are there other criteria I don't know about?
Also, how can you tell for sure what mode something's in? I've found some tunes I like (can't recall where I downloaded them from at this point) that are obviously not in the D major, G Major, A Major keys that my ABC says they are. I know each key has a related dorian, mixolydian, etc. mode... how can you tell which they are? Also, how is mode determined in songs that switch back and forth, with one phrase in dorian and one in major, for example? I left my music theory knowledge behind with high school and now I'm struggling. Help!
Thanks!
-- Florrie
# Posted on October 17th 2001 by Fsnockhart
Re: Slides and Modes
Well, Shannon Heaton once told me that you can play many jigs as slides if you change the emphasis and fool about a bit with the setting.
But don't ask me about the mode! I'd love to hear the answer, though.
Zina
# Posted on October 17th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Slides and Modes
Florrie--welcome to the discussion after a year of lurking! I'm curious (knowing that we have many lurkers)--what encouraged you to finally raise your voice?
Here's my understanding of slides, for what it's worth.
Slides are a form of single jig and can be transcribed in 12/8 or 6/8. The reason for using 12/8 is to capture the longer phrasings typical of slides. The rhythm usually relies on a quarter note followed by an eighth note--think of long and short, dah de dah de dah de dah de.... Which is also what distinguishes a single jig from a double jig (mostly eighth notes: da de de da de de). Slides also tend to be played at a faster tempo than other jigs, although here in the States this may not be the rule as much as it is in Ireland, particularly the Sliabh Luachra area where slides are very popular.
I don't think about 12/8 or 6/8 when playing a slide, but the 12/8 format can be useful when writing a tune down simply because it fits the melodic line better of some slides.
As for modes...the discussion on dorian mode offers a link or two that help explain modes. Again, this is less a concern when playing than it is if you try to transcribe a tune. Even then, though, I don't worry too much about what key or mode a tune is in--it's far easier to just use the most efficient key signature, the one that will require the fewest accidentals as you transcribe the tune. Sometimes even this approach seems murky, and then you just have to let your ear decide what the dominant note is. For example, many Eminor/E dorian tunes feature both c naturals and c sharps. You could write them down in either mode, being careful to mark the accidentals. So how do you decide? Ask yourself a few questions: Which occurs more frequently, c naturals or c sharps? Which note plays a more critical role in the melody line? Does any half (or part) of the tune end on a D note? (In which case, favor the c sharp.) End on a G note (favor the c natural).
When the two halves of a tune clearly fall in different modes, you can either change the key signature at the start of the next half, or toss in your accidentals. Either way is "correct." Which half feels like it's in the tune' s dominant key, to you? Go with it.
Bear in mind that this music is an aural one, with a long history of being abused when committed to paper. It's more important to *play* it faithfully, whether or not it fits comfortably into standard music theory and transcription practicies.
And be wary...I've seen *many* tune transcriptions that miss the accidentals or mode shifts. Trust your ear far more than those ink spots on the page.
Will
# Posted on October 17th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Slides and Modes
As far as modes are concerned, the quick answer is that if the guitar player is having trouble finding the cords, it's a model tune!
The long answer can be found on lesson #23 at this site. http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/lessons.html
This is 100% over my head, but if you've had some musical training, this should be right up your alley!
# Posted on October 17th 2001 by Caoimghgin
Re: Slides and Modes
Find yourself a set dancing class and then you'll 'feel' the difference between slides, jigs, polkas, reels, expend lots of energy and have the best of craic.
# Posted on October 17th 2001 by madonna
Re: Slides and Modes
I'm a singer, and so the modal thing finally made sense to me when someone explained it using the tone syllables of the scale. If you read key signatures, this is pretty easy. The mode scales are as follows:
Do-Do = Ionian mode (Major)
Re-Re = Dorian mode
Mi-Mi = Phrygian mode
Fa-Fa = Lydian mode
So-So = Mixolydian mode
La-La = Aeolian mode (natural minor)
Ti-Ti = Locrian mode
Example: a tune is listed as in "G Major" which has one sharp, F#, but the G chords don't sound right, and the tune ends on D. It's in mixolydian mode, which sounds like a major scale, but has a lowered 7th step.
To hear each scale, think of a piano. C-C is major, D-D is dorian, E-E is phrygian, F-F...you get the idea.
I know, I know--the main thing is to hear it, and play it, but sometimes, it is interesting to understand why something sounds "modal." And just once in awhile, when the session Know-It-All (or perhaps you've never met one of those) has irritated you just once too many times, it is very fun to just say, quietly, "Actually, it's in D Dorian" (no sharps or flats, sounds minor). The Know-It-All will, of course, ignore you, but you sound very intellectual...
# Posted on October 18th 2001 by woman of the house
Modes
That's right. And the most popular ones are dorian (which is like a minor scale without the leading tone) and mixolydian (which sounds like you're playing a 7th chord by mistake
). Dorian is by far the most common in Irish music; i want to say the the majority of the minor stuff in IrTrad is dorian, but i don't know for sur; feels that way sometimes.
Each mode has its own distinctive feel. The Web page in Caoimghgin's post has sound clips for all scales and a couple of modal melodies that give you the feel of each mode.
To me, it helps to think in the cycle of 5ths (the sequence of sharps or flats in the key signatures), but that's because i'm a music theory geek.
For example, Dorian "moves" 1 step in the direction of the sharps in the cycle: D minor = 1 flat, D dorian = 0 flats; E minor = 1 sharp, E dorian = 2 sharps; A minor = 0 sharps, A dorian = 1 sharp...
g
# Posted on October 18th 2001 by glauber
By moving in the direction of the sharps, i mean, you either add 1 sharp or take away 1 flat.
Mixolydian moves 1 step in the opposite direction (add 1 flat or take away 1 sharp).
# Posted on October 18th 2001 by glauber
Re: Slides and Modes
Thanks for all the helpful information. Why I decided to de-lurk --
mostly, I finally had something interesting to say about one of
the tunes. Also when I was floating around looking for info
about modes (and I did notice the post on Dorian mode about
10 minutes after I asked my question), and saw the thread about
who plays what and lives where.
Next questions -- and these are from tunes on another web site,
not this one, but still celtic traditional music --
1) what is a triple hornpipe and
2) what makes something a Strathspey?
I thought I understood a Strathspey to be something with... oh to say
"dotted rhythms going both ways" doesn't exactly describe what I
mean, but I can't think how else to describe it... but then I saw something labeled as a Strathspey that didn't have any dotted
notes at all. So I must be wrong.
# Posted on October 18th 2001 by Fsnockhart
Strathspey
Hello, Fsnockhart,
In the "tunes" section of this site there's a Strathspey called "The Dreary Plains of Toil".
The thing with trad. music (at least Irish, probably Scottish too) is that it's not always notated they way it's played. For example, a hornpipe is supposed to have a "dotted" rhythm, but that's often not in the sheet music. The sheet music is just to let you know the notes; you're supposed to know how the tune is supposed to "feel". Think of the notes as a form of shorthand, a memory aid.
In order to really learn a folk tune, you have to hear someone else play it. Other than that, you can usually fake it if you know a similar tune, but it's not possible to learn how to play strathspeys just by looking at the notes.
g
# Posted on October 19th 2001 by glauber
Re: Slides and Modes
I beleive the "dotted rhythm both ways" is what's called a "Scottish Snap", where the short note is before the dotted note instead of after it (where most are used to hearing it). I'm not sure what else goes into the definition of a Strathspey...
Jeff
# Posted on October 19th 2001 by JeffK627
Re: Slides and Modes
"not always notated the way it's played", Glauber? Try, more like, almost never!
zls
# Posted on October 19th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Slides and Modes
Comments by both Will and G have it right - trad music is a practical rather than formal art and in many instances was originally handed on purely orally/aurally. You can never get into it by relying on the dots. Many fine players both now and in the past were musically illiterate. Listening closely to others and playing from the heart are the best guides - who cares how the musos classify the result. In particular, there's no "right" and "wrong" way of playing - merely variations. So just enjoy !
# Posted on October 19th 2001 by JACK CLEMENTS
Re: Slides and Modes
"I've seen all I can stands, and I cain't stands no more!!" (Quoted from Popeye, 1942 :O)
Being a big fan of the Cape Breton fiddlers, and realizing that this site is dedicated to Irish session music, I have tried to limit my discussions to as little mention of 'home grown' Canadian music as possible. But.... well here goes....
Actually, strathspeys are somewhat of an exception to the 'rule'. Because many strathspeys have dances designed after their rhythms, or are derived from old gaelic songs, they quite often are played as written/sung, or very close to it. The Royal Scottish Country Dance Society publishes its own versions (yes, variations) of tunes, and players need to follow the rhythms set down on paper, or risk the wrath of the dancers. But, Fsnockhart didn't ask about any of this.
Actually, Fsnockhart, you are right in questioning the tune without any 'dots'. It does seem odd to me, as well. I have always thought of strathspeys as having the 'dotted rhythms going both ways'. As well, they usually have little 'runs' of 16th notes, sometimes in groups of three (see The Iron Man), or groups of 4 16th's. Another common feature is that they frequently have a second ending to the B part which runs 4 bars and is quite different from the first ending.
Much of the strathspey is played without slurs, especially those little groups of 3 or 4 16ths. The Scot's snap is what happens when two 16th notes happen together (sandwiched between two dotted eighths). It amounts to a twitch of the bow to articulate the two notes.
Two Scottish strathspeys which really stand out (in the Canadian tradition) are The Bonnie Lass of Bon Accord (J. S. Skinner 18??-1927), and Tullochgorum (which translates roughly as 'The Blue-Green Hills). These tunes are showcases for the virtuosity of the player, featuring bounce bowing, flying string crossings....Skinner composed a set of 6 variations for Tullochgorum which makes "Orange Blossom Special" look like childs play. They are known simply as 'the Skinner Variations'.
Anceltoir has posted several great strathspeys to the tunes section.
Check them out.
# Posted on October 19th 2001 by scottythefiddler
Triple Hornpipes
Just a quick comment. I presume what is meant by triple hornpipes is the 3/2 hornpipes found in English music - I've yet to come across one in the Irish tradition. Whilst the usual 4/4 (or 2/2) hornpipe has two groups of 4 quarter notes to a bar - ONE-two-three-four TWO-two-three-four - the 'triple' hornpipe has three such groups - ONE-two-three-four TWO-two-three-four THREE-two-three-four.
Or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?
# Posted on October 19th 2001 by granama
Re: On Modes
The first time I came across the term `modal tunes´ was in a book called "Learning to Play Old Time Fiddle" by Alan Kaufman, published in the late 70´s by Oak Publications. In another book I also found the term `A to G tunes´ probably because one of the most frequent chord changes in them was from A (either major or minor) to G (major) and back again.... I found that quite helpful when working out acompaniments for those because Caoimghgin is right… At first I had thought that this was kind of an American specialty and I was a little disappointed when I found out that they were just tunes in a minor key…
The way I try to explain it to my students (mostly guitar students) is the following:
Think of a scale in C: C D E F G A B … and give each letter a number, from 1 up to 7.
The first modal scale is the ionian, that goes from 1 to 1 (so even tunes in the very common major keys are modal tunes! At least as long as they keep the mode intact)
The second is the dorian, that goes from D to D (2 to 2).
The phrygian (3 to 3) and lydian (4 to 4) modes are very rare in `modern´ trad. music and can safely be ignored. I only know one tune that has a phrygian `feel´ about it and that lasts only for one bar (it´s called "Breakdown" but is a hornpipe), and no lydian mode tune at all!
The mixolydian mode goes from 5 to 5 (G to G)
and the aeolian from 6 to 6 (A to A).
The locrian (7 to 7) mode again can be ignored because there are no tunes using this mode. Just for fun try composing something in locrian mode (B to B). It will always sound somewhat open-ended and not really satisfying until you finish a line on a C …
Whether a mode sounds major or minor is always defined by the third note of the scale: if the interval between the first and the third note is a major third (two whole steps) it´s a major scale, if it´s a minor third (and whole and a half step) it is a minor scale.
Let´s take the tin whistle (in D) as an example. It is tuned to play a D major scale (two sharps, the F# and the C#) so the above in C applies to the D scale here:
If you want to play something in ionian (major) mode, you´ll find that the keys of D and G (because the C natural is easy to play!) are the easiest to do this in,
A is possible but a little harder (because of the G#), all the other major scales are very hard or downright impossible.
If you want to play in a dorian mode you´ll find it easiest to start the scale on E or A (playing the C natural),
and the mixolydian mode is very easy when you start on A (because the G is played natural in this mode).
Tunes in an aeolian mode usually start on E (again because of the easy C natural) or on B.
I think (I may be wrong!) that the choice of key for many tunes often resulted in the composers´ choice of mode they wanted the tune to be in. They said - more or less consciously: "I want this to be in the aeolian mode", and then started playing in E or A or B.
Fiddle players (and players of other stringed instruments) of course have a lot more leeway in their choice of key, and the freedom to include notes outside the mode or switching back and forth between modes. They are more influenced by the sounds of their instruments in certain keys. Fiddle composers have made frequent use of that freedom by composing tunes in G aeolian or dorian, or D aeolian and dorian, and in the major keys of Bb or Eb. The fact that tunes in these keys are fairly rare in Ireland probably comes from the presence of the many Uillean pipers, whistle players and flutists who, when they want to play one of those tunes, transpose it to a key suitable for their instruments. The result being that most of the major tunes (ionian) are in D and/ or G, and most of the minor (both dorian and aeolian) tunes in E or A.
And the other way round: if a tin whistle player wants (or has) to play something in D dorian he usually takes a C whistle for that. And G mixolydian might be easier on a C whistle than on a D (the whistle player´s equivalent to the guitarist´s using a capo…).
I hope all this makes sense. If not let me know. I always look for better ways to explain music theory (for the sake of my students!). It´s always easy AFTER you have understood it but rarely before…
# Posted on October 20th 2001 by Joerg Froese
Re: Double (Triple) Hornpipes
Hello, Fsnockhart,
there is a link under Tune Collections here called "John of the Greeny Cheshire Way".
The collection is dedicated to this type of hornpipe. I bought the book some sixteen or seventeen years ago and the last time I asked (1993) it was out of print. I like the more obscure rhythms and tunes as well and this book is full of them! The link offers ABC files of all hornpipes from the collection.
As far as I can tell the form has died out. In Northumberland one tune called "The Lads of Alnwick" has survived and is sometimes even played in sessions. A friend of mine there calls it a "musical coelocanth" (Never looked that up in a dictionary so I don´t know what it means! A dinosaur?) When "John of the Greeny Cheshire Way" came out, interest in this form was revived in the north east of England, and some people even composed new double hornpipes. A personal favourite of mine is "Dog Leap Stairs" by Alistair Anderson. Another one that is well known, though not frequently played, is "Go to Berwick, Johnny", though that may be due to the recording that Alistair Anderson and his group Syncopace did around 1990.
In some collections and manuscripts double hornpipes have been notated in 3/4 time. Usually they are recognizable because they include a lot of sixteenth notes. But when they don´t it´s easy to confuse them with waltzes (that is when the word hornpipe in the title is missing). One way to distinguish between both types is the age of the tune. Waltzes became popular only during the 19th century, so if the tune is older it´s probably not a waltz (which doesn´t mean it´s a hornpipe). The other method is playing them both ways, and trying to find out what makes more sense. But that´s risky, too...
Some songs in this rhythm have survived as well, mostly in Scotland. And most of the lyrics it seems make fun of the English and a king called Geordie (King George III who is said to have been mentally quite indisposed?) The driving rhythm really sounds quite aggressive. Maybe that´s why they used it frequently for songs like that.
The 4/4 time hornpipes maybe got their name because the dancers kept using some of the old steps with the new music. Both forms seem to have existed in `peaceful coexistence´ (my Northumbrian friend again) all through the 17th and 18th centuries right into the 19th when the 3/2 hornpipes become scarce and the common-time hornpipes much more abundant in music manuscripts and publications.
And maybe another interesting information about the playing of the common-time hornpipes: the dotted style (swinging eight notes) of playing them is said to be a development of the 1850s. Before that time hornpipes were played straight and faster, more like the `modern´ reels. That means that playing a hornpipe `undotted´ is anything but wrong, but perhaps the survival of a more ancient way of playing hornpipes for dancers. The Northumbrians call the dotted style "Newcastle style" (they say it was invented there!) and the straight, faster way "sailor´s style". Again, both forms turn up in large numbers in tune collections and manuscripts dating from the 1850s until today.
(By the way, the difference between hornpipes and reels at that time was that reels consisted of phrases/ parts that were only four bars long while the hornpipes right from the start used the longer eight bar form.)
# Posted on October 20th 2001 by Joerg Froese
Re: Slides and Modes
You can sometimes hear John Offord (compiler of John of the Greeny Cheshire Way) playing 3/2 hornpipes on Tuesday nights at the Cricketers pub in Greenwich. He does n't play them on his own,either!
I think there's a strong tradition of clog and step dancing also in the North West,especially Lancashire and I believe you can hear these tunes up there too. But they're certainly not common which is a pity.
By the way,George III's grandfather,George I, came over from Hannover. He never learned to speak or understand English. Indeed, most of our present so-called ruling family are probably more German than anything else ( the family name was changed during World War I ) so I say: Vive la Republique! (not because of their ancestors,either!)
Two of my favourite hornpipes are Flat Cap and Tom Mellins which go well together. As the site is for Irish tunes I think I should better stop here.
Dave
# Posted on October 20th 2001 by biggus dave
Re: No double Hornpipes in Ireland
Since these triple time hornpipes were most popular during the 17th and 18th centuries in England, my guess is that they had been considered very outlandish by the Irish. Especially with England not being considered a friendly neighbour by many Irish in those days (to put it mildly). And because they didn´t have a trad. dance rhythm of their own that resembled it, they probably saw no need to take the tunes over and compose some of their own.
What I find striking about this rhythm is its close relationship to the Swedish polskas and the classical polonaises of baroque music (as both names mean "Polish"), but so far I haven´t found anyone writing or talking about it...
# Posted on October 22nd 2001 by Joerg Froese
Coelocanth
Joerg,
ein Coelocanth ist ein urzeit Fisch, den sie in den achtzigern oder neunzigern aus dem Meer gefischt haben. Ich glaube irgendwo bei Madagascar, wenn ich mich recht erinnere. Es war damals eine grosse Sache, da die Spezies fuer ausgestorben gehalten worden war. Im uebertragenen Sinne heissen jetzt voellig veraltete Dinge Coelocanth. Passt also auf Deine triple hornpipes...
Tschuess, nech.
Manfred/Bloomfield
# Posted on October 22nd 2001 by Bloomfield
Re: Slides and Modes
Greetings all,
I just wanted to thank everyone in this discussion and the one a while back who has contributed to the elucidation of this mode business. I've finally pieced it all together. And in addition to general edification, the bit of theory has really helped me understand why some tunes seem to go so well together in a set.
For example, take the following set of jigs: Morrison's, Stan Chapman's (a Jerry Holland tune), and Cliffs of Moher. I recently slapped these three jigs together and was delighted by the combination but didn't really know why.
However, a little analysis reveals the following. Morrison's, being in E minor, ends on an E and Stan Chapman's starts on the same E but in E mixolydian. A nice change from a standard minor to a somewhat unusual mixolydian mode for irish music. The second part of Stan Chapman's, however, modulates interestingly up to the relative major of E mix, which is A major, ending on the A in the lower register. The final tune, Cliffs of Moher, starts of course on A in the upper register in the key (or should I say mode?) of A dorian. Like the fist two tunes in the set, the second tune ends on the same note as the third one begins but in another key (A major to A dorian), which seems to produce another interesting chord change.
I know there are no hard-fast rules for putting tunes together in sets, but knowing a bit of the underlying theory seems to be quite enlightening.
In any case, now I can exert control over the guitar players in sessions by barking out chord changes while maintaining the rhythm with the nazi foot stomping ;}
Thanks for the insights!
# Posted on October 22nd 2001 by Brendan
Re: Slides and Modes
Opps! I meant to say that Morrison's is in Edorian.
# Posted on October 22nd 2001 by Brendan
Re: Coelocanth
Danke, Manfred!
Ich hab mir schon so was gedacht, war aber nicht sicher... und ich hasse die Blätterei in Wörterbüchern.
Bis demnächst, Tschüß
Jörg!
# Posted on October 22nd 2001 by Joerg Froese
Das Slide
Hey, Jorg, i have a feeling that this language you're using is not Irish!
# Posted on October 23rd 2001 by glauber
Re: More Modes
I think of modes in terms of major scales and drones. For example, in D major if you play the scale from D to D its a straight ahead major scale, or Ionian mode. Played against a E drone the same D major scale played from E to E becomes an E dorian mode, etc.
D drone - DEF#GABC#D = D Ionian
E drone - EF#GABC#DE = E Dorian (minor)
A drone - ABC#DEF#GA = A Mixolydian
B drone - BC#DEF#GAB = B Aeolian (minor)
This way modes are "major" scales played in different contexts. There are more modes but these are the most common modes in Celtic music. All the other keys can be transposed from the example above ( a good way to learn the modes).
Applying this use approach, an accompanist can add an interesting element by simply varying the drones played against the different parts of a tune.
Steve M.
# Posted on October 28th 2001 by SteveM
Re: Slides and Modes
Hello. I'm New here.
Well, Anyway. Strathspeys. I've found the best way to describe the rhythm of a strathspey is his: Play the quavers as the "First and Last of four semi-quavers" NOT as 1 + 3 of a triplet (like a hornpipe!)
Any Help?
Cheers anyway.
Tom
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by Mo B
Re: Slides and Modes
Welcome to our mess, Tom. Hope you chime in regularly!
Zina
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by Zina Lee