Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
O'Neill's scores single jigs in both 12/8 and 6/8 but a quick scan suggests that the 6/8 singles will play as slides. I think its something to do with having more dotted quavers and fewer triples in the slide.
I don't think that the scoring is always significant - this isn't classical music and the notes are at best a guide - to paraphrase Brendan Breathnach.
The phrasing of the jig probably determines whether it's a double or a slide and phrasing isn't usually indicated on a score.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
The single jig has a general crotchet/quaver occupancy in most bars giving the characteristic 'dum de dum de' rhythm whilst with the double jig there is usually the run of three quavers to each beat, in other words the full quota of six quavers to the bar
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I don't think it is just 6/8 vs 12/8, the three note groups feel differently in slides than they do in double jigs. In a slide the tune feels straighter, less jiggy to me. I would also tend to play a slide faster than I would a double-jig. A slide to me feels like midway between a jig and a reel if that makes sense, although certainly many people do play "slides" in pretty much the same manner as jigs. That's my tuppence worth anyway, I make no pretence of being an expert.
Some tunes I will play in both styles depending on mood, or instrument e.g. Kathleen Hehir's I'll play as a more leisurely jig like tune on mandolin or bouzouki, but frequently more "slide-like" (or at least what I think of as "slide-like") on the banjo. IIRC this tune is recorded on "they sailed away from dublin bay" by Liam Farrell and Joe Whelan in the second style.
But to my mind a single jig is not really the same thing as a slide although both are most often noted down as 12/8.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I had the usual crisis of confidence after posting, and googled for other opinions on slides v jigs. I found the following at http://www.irishtune.info/rhythm/ The main point I'd like to highlight from the quote is the author's contention that the triplets in a slide don't have a jig pattern I'd go along with this opinion.
S/he also makes a number of other interesting points including the way that different musicians will have more or less elastic or inclusive definitions for "slide" and "single-jig" . Bearing in mind that the quoted material is only the opinion of another individual, albeit much better stated than my own attempt:
"<Slide> Uninitiated listeners, of which there are many, and even some published tune transcribers have mistaken slides as hornpipes, single jigs, polkas, or double jigs, since slides share various traits with each. Once you know a few, you realize they are clearly quite distinct from any of those possibilities. The first note of each bar is clearly emphasized and the tempo is rather quick. Each of the two groups per bar can be thought of as having two halves, each of which in turn is either a heavy-light pair or a fairly even triplet (not a jig pattern). Thus if all four group-halves in a bar were triplets – which is uncommon –, you'd have a twelve-note bar. The ratio of heavy-light pairs to triplets in a slide is slightly in favor of the pairs. Most slides break the pattern once or twice in a tune by delaying the strong note for a bar's second group until that group's second half, creating a cross-rhythm with respect to the foot taps. Other unique characteristics of slides are not necessary additional information for identifying them – only for playing them!
Note that slides are peculiar to the Southwest of Ireland, and some are directly related to double jigs, single jigs, or hornpipes played elsewhere in Ireland. Musicians quite familiar with slides are generally unfamiliar with single jigs, and some otherwise respectable authorities on the slide have rashly and mistakenly pronounced that single jigs "are the same as slides." On the other hand, some musicians simply use the term "single jig" to mean "slide," and are unaware of the existence of the distinctive single jig rhythm in Irish music. Over the course of the 20th century the customary notation for slides shifted from 6/8 to 12/8, which I think is an improvement in accuracy. However, I have given bar counts for slides here according to the 6/8 notation, for the very practical reason that the set dancers count them that way! See Top Ten Slides for examples."
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
HTPD: "'' slide's '' i think is actually correct english"
Only if you mean "of the slide". If you mean the plural of slide, then inserting an apostrophe is an abomination. Sometimes referred to as the "Grocers' apostrophe" in reference to market stalls saying things like "tom's" and "pot's" for tomatoes or potatoes. Perfectly correct, while it is an abbreviation, but an abomination when put in front of a standard plural "s".
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
That stuff posted by cw67q is how I have it.
I think the telling line is, "Other unique characteristics of slides are not necessary additional information for identifying them – only for playing them."
If you combine the two things of people playing slides as if they were jigs - because they simply don't know what slides are - and even if you do know slides, they are often hard to identify from being written, we begin to see where the confusion comes from.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I think the two are different, if only because the dances done to each have different sorts of steps, and therefore demand different rhythmic emphasis. Slides have much more of a tendency to emphasize the back beat rather than the downbeat, and when played properly, the foot wants to tap out a firm "1-2-3-4" rather than "123-123" if you know what I mean.
James Kelly has a lot to say about the differences between the two.
Most American players don't seem to understand the difference, probably since nobody over here is dancing slides to the tunes and therefore would not insist on the proper rythmn being played.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
There are similarities in construction (that quarter note, eighth note thing) but aren't single jigs played at jig pace, while slides are played more briskly? From what I can see, that brisker pace is what makes slides the "polka" equivalent in the family of tunes types that have meters divisible by three.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
And the same tune can be played as one type or another, simply by changing the em-hasis here and there. Jigs can become slides, hornpipes can become reels, flings can become polkas, etc etc. I find that the Fiddler's Companion website (http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/FCfiles.html), which lists the histories of tunes, and all the different traditions and forms where a tune can be found, is a very valuable resource. And often, tunes like "Off She Goes" (to pick a common tune that fits the mold we have been discussing) have notations that they are played as both a slide and a single jig.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Yes, I usually play them more briskly than jigs, but not all the time, There's more to it than just the speed. And it's further confused when you can make some jigs into slides. Sometimes it can work, though I've not yet found a slide that made a decent jig. But as I said on another thread, I'm not really in favour of forcing any kind of rhythm on a tune that is not inherent in it. Slides are slides and jigs are jigs, sure they're related, but they're not really interchangeable.
A mate wrote a cracking tune a while back in the style of an Asturian 6/8 tune - can't remember what they're called, it's another distinct 6/8 style again, not a jig. People here picked it up and started playing it as a jig. I was never very happy with it, until I tried it as a slide. Now everone plays it as a slide and it has found it's home.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"That stuff posted by cw67q is how I have it." (Llig)
I'm going to have to change my user name. Cw67qwas the first part of my first email address assigned to me a few years back , and I've gotten into the habit of using it as a log on name for various sites, but it isn't very user friendly. I'm only mentioning the name change here in case I turn up later in the thread under a different monica.
- Chris
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I'm no idea if I'm right or wrong on this one, but my understanding of this is different: I've always understood slides and single jigs to be different animals - slides are for the set dancers and single jigs are for step dancers and single jigs have different phrasing and rhythmic emphasis. I'd say a tune like Off She Goes is a single jig, but not a slide, and a tune like Dan O'Keeffe's is a slide but not a single jig. So for me, a "jig" could refer to "single jig" like Off She Goes, or "double jig" like Out On The Ocean, but NOT a slide. My $0.02...
I’m guilty of posting abuse, and I feel bad about it. I’ve apologized but I feel I’ve yet to make amends.
HTPD, I feel so much better to see you contribute in a way that feels less confrontational. Not that you meant to come across that way, but many of your initial posts sure felt so very in-you-face. Maybe I’m getting used to your style. I think you’ve toned down a bit, too.
When a new person shows up it takes effort for the individual and the group to synchronise. The process can be painful. We’re social beings, though sometimes I think not too far advanced from savannah apes peering over tall grass.
Well, that’s it, I can’t contribute anything on the actual slide/single jig discussion but it sure makes for fascinating reading. Thanks, all.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Of couse you would mistake a slide for a jig, if you didn't know what a slide was. All this referencing to how you would notate it is a red herring. It's the feel of it, and that's not in the time signiture
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Yes, referencing to notation can be misleading. The fundamental distinction between single, double, slide and march jigs is a matter of feel and rhythm (not time or beat). It's the same debate as barn dance, fling and highland. Familiarity shows the differences and there is no shortcut to appreciation of the differences. The whole thing is complicated because there are plenty of tunes that inhabit murky areas in between those classifications. Most of the time the differences are very clear to players sufficiently familiar with the forms but not always. Emphasis varies from place to place and tunes pass over to an alternate interpretation because players from different localities make them slot into their own reference set. We play a highland that is very Donegal but I have come across the same tune as a polka. Highlands and Germans regularly turn up as flings and barndances in other parts of the country and, very often, a reel that has a stiff feel to it turns out to be originally a highland.
Resist the urge to make everything fit into the limited scheme of things that you know and your appreciation of the subtleties involved will deepen.
For what it's worth (not much) we regard single jigs as a very distinct set of tunes. Kind of more formal and stiff that the other forms.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I really hope llig isn't tempted to reply to your post, HTPD.
I'd really love to dispense with the term single jig too, and just call them all slides. But then, there are those tunes like Off She Goes which simply don't fit into the slide mold. It's like the circular peg in the square hole thing, or whatever the expression is, and what's that word... shoehorning... good word that.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Missed that last contribution from HTPD. So just wanted to say that, it's a funny thing, but we do regard slides and the single jigs that I defined (?) above as part of the same family of tunes. Slides are the streamlined end of the family. So...... while they're all called single jigs, nobody preforming would introduce a slide as a single jig without also calling it a slide and nobody would play a non-slide single jig for a set.
This is the beauty of being on the inside a body of knowledge. We can make distinctions that drive initiates crazy.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Actually, the main problem with single jigs is that there aren't enough of them played outside Ireland or by supergroups. There are some seriously lovely tunes there that should be widely played and then, maybe, appreciation of the differences would deepen.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Yeah. There's a coupla nice Paddy O'Brien single jigs that were popular here in Sydney for a while. I feel as though I probably know a few single jigs, but if someone asked me, I couldn't name one. I might go through my tunes one day and make a few sets up or something. They're definitely neglected as a genre of tune.
I've always liked slides. I love the way they have this macrorhythm thing going on that ties over the barlines. I just need to learn some more. I'm always around reel/jig people, and hardly ever slide/polka people, and my repertoire reflects that. Gets embarrassing, that, in some sessions.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
That's a good post Jim, thanks.
I'm sure the quote from Matt Cranitch is out of context. He could have been saying something like, "strictly speaking, any tune with division of 3 over 8 is a jig. So, ergo, slides are jigs". But that doesn't help. A push bike is a bike, a motor bike is a bike, they both have two wheels. But are their similarities more important than their distinctions?
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I've never come across that tune before, Kenny, but seeing it on paper, I'd play it as a jig. As is, it seems very "busy". If I was to play it as a slide, I'd probs simplify it a bit and smooth it out so that e.g. BGB BAG|F becomes B3 BAG|F, just to make it less jig-like. To me it looks like one of those tunes you can easily make into either jig or slide, depending on your mood and what you do with it.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Wouldn't life and music be absolutely boring, if everything was restricted to set formula, rules, and whatever. Much better to have a bit of creativity, which is what music should be about.
Now if my esteemed friend Mr Llig wants to say "A slide is a single jig" well congratulations to him, for breaking free from limits set by timing, however that works. To me, who doesn't understand 5/7 or 6/8 or any of that, a slide is indeed a single jig, in a carefree musical way, rather than seeing music as a discipline to be mastered.
Here's to exploring the endless possibilities of music, rather than its limits, and a carefree inspirational spirit.
Matt Cranitch, whoever he may be, is entitled to his humble opinion, just as Llig is entitled to his. On this occasion, Llig is undoubtedly right, possibly for different reasons than my cry for freedom of expression.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Years ago I possessed the album "Flute For The Feis" by piccolo player John Doonan. I believe the tracks Smash The Windows/ Off She Goes, and/or Saddle The Pony/Shandon Bells, were labelled "single jigs". I don't think any of these are slides - they're generally written in 6/8, anyway. I conclude that in these cases "single jig" was a dance term and referred to 6/8s played at a particular tempo.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Oh no, sir, Llig is not mistaken. If you carry on like this you're going to drive me into applying for the directorship of his fan club. I really can't understand what's driven me to this viewpoint over the last couple of weks. Sometimes I think my brain has a mind of its own.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I dont think a slide is a single jig,
In my experience,single jigs are danced by step dancers,and danced a little slower than a double jig,metronome speed about105,double jig speed,would be about 115,slides are much faster144,and are danced in sets.
However it would be quite possible to use a tune described in Oneills as a single jig[ask my father]as a slide if one so wished,but then the same could be said of many tunes.
Simon Thoumire plays Madam Bonaparte[normally a hornpipe] as a reel,
I have also heard the Scholar played as both a hornpipe and a Reel.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
In The masters touch by seamus ennis,there is adescription of a single jig,quote[this is asingle jig.its time signatureis12/8 and has four beats ineach bar ,it is played with a jaunty jerking gait.Be careful to accentuate the four beats in each bar [1, 4, 7 10,]bar,otherwise you may find yourself inadvertently playing in hornpipe time].
Frahers jig is also described by Ennis as a single jig,the first bar of which consists,of twelve notes[four groups of three].
you wont find many slides like that.
Kathleen Hehirs[Slide]was described by JacKie Daly[To a friend of mine]as a tune that is better played at a slower speed than a normal slide[I think he meant it had too many notes to work really well as a slide],that is also my opinion of Merrily kissed The Quaker.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Hugo ya I just cut paste but but gill has it here
"Of couse you would mistake a slide for a jig, if you didn't know what a slide was. All this referencing to how you would notate it is a red herring. It's the feel of it, and that's not in the time signiture" Slides almost have a bounce and tempo to them thats hard to explain.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"strictly speaking slides are single jigs"
The "strictly speaking" of the above quote from Matt Crannitch is worth noting. To me this implies that in Matt's classification slides form a very distinctive subset of tunes within a larger group that he defines as "single jigs".
Far from equating "slide" as being synonomous with "single jig" the quoted text appears* to be pointing out that in Matt Cranitch's opinion slides are in fact a subset of "single jig" _despite_ their obvious distinctiveness.
*of course it is difficult to be sure of this without seeing the overall context of the quotation, but that is what I would take out of this statement.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
free,
Francis Oneill was from near Bantry [CoCork] south west of ireland,Not far from sliabh luchra,he states in his book that he collected tunes in amongst other places west carberry[co Cork].
as he was in this area collecting, should we ask ourselves why did he not collect any slides ,when he collected single jigs,are they a more recent dance or did Oneill not recognise them as a dance,or did he consider them the same as a slide?
I have seen them both danced and they are not the same.,but some of the single jigs tunes could be used as slides.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
It's been amusing watching you backpedal through this thread, mr tradpiper. First you said slides and single jigs are synonymous, now they are not?
And all while insulting people throughout. The simple truth is that what you consider to be a fact is often not considered to be a fact by others, and it would do you well to keep that in mind in your future discourse.
Slides do not sound like single jigs to me at all, and while I don't have your illustrious heritage and pedigree, I do listen a lot to fiddlers from Sliabh Luacra and other very good musicians.
I agree, the time signature discussion is pointless, it doesn't answer anything, and to say that because something is in 12/9 it must therefore be a single jig (or a slide) is wrong. A hornpipe could easily be notated in 12/8. Does that automatically make it a slide or a single jig? No, of course not.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I've been thinking about this over the course of this thread, and it seems to me that slides and single jigs form a sort of spectrum.
If we take GaryAMartin's lists of slides and single jigs posted above as the start, and granted that I, and many others, will know just about all of those tunes, there are certain tunes that are in the 'single jigs' list that feel more like 'slides' and certain tunes in the 'slides' list that feel more like single jigs.
What I'm trying to get at is, within this spectrum of tunes that are clearly not double jigs, there are some that have Dow's 'macrorhythmic' thing of going over barlines, or feeling like they're in 12/8 however they're notated; and there are some that feel like 6/8 tunes, even if they're notated in 12/8.
I think it's further confused because different people use different terminology. For instance, I've noticed that some - me included - see slides as being basically 12/8 tunes and single jigs as basically 6/8 tunes. But others don't see it that way.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"The first note of each bar is clearly emphasized." But then the piece goes on to say that it is not clear whether there are 4 bars in 12/8 or eight bars in 6/8. Not that clearly emphasised then.
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Slides and single jigs are both in 12/8 time. It's a bit like Frank Carson's jokes (it's the way you tell them} it's the way you play them. Single jigs have a "hop" feel to them while slides are smooth and are best visualised by thinking of Kerry set dancers in full flight.
A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
hands up anyone who agrees
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
A single jig is in 6/8 and a slide is in 12/8.My hand is not up.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by dafydd
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I'm not raising my hand either. - Chris
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
O'Neill's scores single jigs in both 12/8 and 6/8 but a quick scan suggests that the 6/8 singles will play as slides. I think its something to do with having more dotted quavers and fewer triples in the slide.
I don't think that the scoring is always significant - this isn't classical music and the notes are at best a guide - to paraphrase Brendan Breathnach.
The phrasing of the jig probably determines whether it's a double or a slide and phrasing isn't usually indicated on a score.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
gill a slide and a single jig are the same your right
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
The single jig has a general crotchet/quaver occupancy in most bars giving the characteristic 'dum de dum de' rhythm whilst with the double jig there is usually the run of three quavers to each beat, in other words the full quota of six quavers to the bar
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Saint
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I don't think it is just 6/8 vs 12/8, the three note groups feel differently in slides than they do in double jigs. In a slide the tune feels straighter, less jiggy to me. I would also tend to play a slide faster than I would a double-jig. A slide to me feels like midway between a jig and a reel if that makes sense, although certainly many people do play "slides" in pretty much the same manner as jigs. That's my tuppence worth anyway, I make no pretence of being an expert.
Some tunes I will play in both styles depending on mood, or instrument e.g. Kathleen Hehir's I'll play as a more leisurely jig like tune on mandolin or bouzouki, but frequently more "slide-like" (or at least what I think of as "slide-like") on the banjo. IIRC this tune is recorded on "they sailed away from dublin bay" by Liam Farrell and Joe Whelan in the second style.
But to my mind a single jig is not really the same thing as a slide although both are most often noted down as 12/8.
- Chris
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Michael, you're slipping...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2474
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by bc_box_player
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I had the usual crisis of confidence after posting, and googled for other opinions on slides v jigs. I found the following at http://www.irishtune.info/rhythm/ The main point I'd like to highlight from the quote is the author's contention that the triplets in a slide don't have a jig pattern I'd go along with this opinion.
S/he also makes a number of other interesting points including the way that different musicians will have more or less elastic or inclusive definitions for "slide" and "single-jig" . Bearing in mind that the quoted material is only the opinion of another individual, albeit much better stated than my own attempt:
"<Slide> Uninitiated listeners, of which there are many, and even some published tune transcribers have mistaken slides as hornpipes, single jigs, polkas, or double jigs, since slides share various traits with each. Once you know a few, you realize they are clearly quite distinct from any of those possibilities. The first note of each bar is clearly emphasized and the tempo is rather quick. Each of the two groups per bar can be thought of as having two halves, each of which in turn is either a heavy-light pair or a fairly even triplet (not a jig pattern). Thus if all four group-halves in a bar were triplets – which is uncommon –, you'd have a twelve-note bar. The ratio of heavy-light pairs to triplets in a slide is slightly in favor of the pairs. Most slides break the pattern once or twice in a tune by delaying the strong note for a bar's second group until that group's second half, creating a cross-rhythm with respect to the foot taps. Other unique characteristics of slides are not necessary additional information for identifying them – only for playing them!
Note that slides are peculiar to the Southwest of Ireland, and some are directly related to double jigs, single jigs, or hornpipes played elsewhere in Ireland. Musicians quite familiar with slides are generally unfamiliar with single jigs, and some otherwise respectable authorities on the slide have rashly and mistakenly pronounced that single jigs "are the same as slides." On the other hand, some musicians simply use the term "single jig" to mean "slide," and are unaware of the existence of the distinctive single jig rhythm in Irish music. Over the course of the 20th century the customary notation for slides shifted from 6/8 to 12/8, which I think is an improvement in accuracy. However, I have given bar counts for slides here according to the 6/8 notation, for the very practical reason that the set dancers count them that way! See Top Ten Slides for examples."
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"Michael, you're slipping..."
is that slip-sliding away?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by domnull
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
ok, I'll get my coat !
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by domnull
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Saint,
did you copy and paste that last one???
hehe
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Hugo Chavez
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
HTPD: "'' slide's '' i think is actually correct english"
Only if you mean "of the slide". If you mean the plural of slide, then inserting an apostrophe is an abomination. Sometimes referred to as the "Grocers' apostrophe" in reference to market stalls saying things like "tom's" and "pot's" for tomatoes or potatoes. Perfectly correct, while it is an abbreviation, but an abomination when put in front of a standard plural "s".
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"Between us all we can come to a consensus, and hopefully we will be close to the truth"
hahaha..that has never happened here
but why must people come to a concensus?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
That stuff posted by cw67q is how I have it.
I think the telling line is, "Other unique characteristics of slides are not necessary additional information for identifying them – only for playing them."
If you combine the two things of people playing slides as if they were jigs - because they simply don't know what slides are - and even if you do know slides, they are often hard to identify from being written, we begin to see where the confusion comes from.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
A slide is a piece of playground equipment.
Fun to play, but dangerous if you fall off....
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by peterlenz
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I think the two are different, if only because the dances done to each have different sorts of steps, and therefore demand different rhythmic emphasis. Slides have much more of a tendency to emphasize the back beat rather than the downbeat, and when played properly, the foot wants to tap out a firm "1-2-3-4" rather than "123-123" if you know what I mean.
James Kelly has a lot to say about the differences between the two.
Most American players don't seem to understand the difference, probably since nobody over here is dancing slides to the tunes and therefore would not insist on the proper rythmn being played.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Murph
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
There are similarities in construction (that quarter note, eighth note thing) but aren't single jigs played at jig pace, while slides are played more briskly? From what I can see, that brisker pace is what makes slides the "polka" equivalent in the family of tunes types that have meters divisible by three.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
And the same tune can be played as one type or another, simply by changing the em-hasis here and there. Jigs can become slides, hornpipes can become reels, flings can become polkas, etc etc. I find that the Fiddler's Companion website (http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/FCfiles.html), which lists the histories of tunes, and all the different traditions and forms where a tune can be found, is a very valuable resource. And often, tunes like "Off She Goes" (to pick a common tune that fits the mold we have been discussing) have notations that they are played as both a slide and a single jig.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by AlBrown
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Yes, I usually play them more briskly than jigs, but not all the time, There's more to it than just the speed. And it's further confused when you can make some jigs into slides. Sometimes it can work, though I've not yet found a slide that made a decent jig. But as I said on another thread, I'm not really in favour of forcing any kind of rhythm on a tune that is not inherent in it. Slides are slides and jigs are jigs, sure they're related, but they're not really interchangeable.
A mate wrote a cracking tune a while back in the style of an Asturian 6/8 tune - can't remember what they're called, it's another distinct 6/8 style again, not a jig. People here picked it up and started playing it as a jig. I was never very happy with it, until I tried it as a slide. Now everone plays it as a slide and it has found it's home.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Michael is spot on in the top post. It's time we did away with the confusion and just dropped the expression "single jig" completely.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Generally I agree, but...
I swear I've heard the odd jig that was clearly a single jig, yet wouldn't have worked as a slide at all...
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"That stuff posted by cw67q is how I have it." (Llig)
I'm going to have to change my user name. Cw67qwas the first part of my first email address assigned to me a few years back , and I've gotten into the habit of using it as a log on name for various sites, but it isn't very user friendly. I'm only mentioning the name change here in case I turn up later in the thread under a different monica.
- Chris
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Hey, changing your username changes the name at the bottom of all your old posts too. I never knew that.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I'm no idea if I'm right or wrong on this one, but my understanding of this is different: I've always understood slides and single jigs to be different animals - slides are for the set dancers and single jigs are for step dancers and single jigs have different phrasing and rhythmic emphasis. I'd say a tune like Off She Goes is a single jig, but not a slide, and a tune like Dan O'Keeffe's is a slide but not a single jig. So for me, a "jig" could refer to "single jig" like Off She Goes, or "double jig" like Out On The Ocean, but NOT a slide. My $0.02...
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Dow
Re: totally off topic...
I’m guilty of posting abuse, and I feel bad about it. I’ve apologized but I feel I’ve yet to make amends.
HTPD, I feel so much better to see you contribute in a way that feels less confrontational. Not that you meant to come across that way, but many of your initial posts sure felt so very in-you-face. Maybe I’m getting used to your style. I think you’ve toned down a bit, too.
When a new person shows up it takes effort for the individual and the group to synchronise. The process can be painful. We’re social beings, though sometimes I think not too far advanced from savannah apes peering over tall grass.
Well, that’s it, I can’t contribute anything on the actual slide/single jig discussion but it sure makes for fascinating reading. Thanks, all.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by fidkid
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Of couse you would mistake a slide for a jig, if you didn't know what a slide was. All this referencing to how you would notate it is a red herring. It's the feel of it, and that's not in the time signiture
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Yes, referencing to notation can be misleading. The fundamental distinction between single, double, slide and march jigs is a matter of feel and rhythm (not time or beat). It's the same debate as barn dance, fling and highland. Familiarity shows the differences and there is no shortcut to appreciation of the differences. The whole thing is complicated because there are plenty of tunes that inhabit murky areas in between those classifications. Most of the time the differences are very clear to players sufficiently familiar with the forms but not always. Emphasis varies from place to place and tunes pass over to an alternate interpretation because players from different localities make them slot into their own reference set. We play a highland that is very Donegal but I have come across the same tune as a polka. Highlands and Germans regularly turn up as flings and barndances in other parts of the country and, very often, a reel that has a stiff feel to it turns out to be originally a highland.
Resist the urge to make everything fit into the limited scheme of things that you know and your appreciation of the subtleties involved will deepen.
For what it's worth (not much) we regard single jigs as a very distinct set of tunes. Kind of more formal and stiff that the other forms.
Jim
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by skerries
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I really hope llig isn't tempted to reply to your post, HTPD.
I'd really love to dispense with the term single jig too, and just call them all slides. But then, there are those tunes like Off She Goes which simply don't fit into the slide mold. It's like the circular peg in the square hole thing, or whatever the expression is, and what's that word... shoehorning... good word that.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Dow
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Missed that last contribution from HTPD. So just wanted to say that, it's a funny thing, but we do regard slides and the single jigs that I defined (?) above as part of the same family of tunes. Slides are the streamlined end of the family. So...... while they're all called single jigs, nobody preforming would introduce a slide as a single jig without also calling it a slide and nobody would play a non-slide single jig for a set.
This is the beauty of being on the inside a body of knowledge. We can make distinctions that drive initiates crazy.
Jim
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by skerries
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
No not shoehorn. What's the word I'm looking for that's like that? I give up it's 2am
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Dow
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Hi, Dow,
There is no way in the world that we could do away with the term single jig. It's a real, if possibly confusing, distinction.
Jim
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by skerries
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Actually, the main problem with single jigs is that there aren't enough of them played outside Ireland or by supergroups. There are some seriously lovely tunes there that should be widely played and then, maybe, appreciation of the differences would deepen.
Jim
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by skerries
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Yeah. There's a coupla nice Paddy O'Brien single jigs that were popular here in Sydney for a while. I feel as though I probably know a few single jigs, but if someone asked me, I couldn't name one. I might go through my tunes one day and make a few sets up or something. They're definitely neglected as a genre of tune.
I've always liked slides. I love the way they have this macrorhythm thing going on that ties over the barlines. I just need to learn some more. I'm always around reel/jig people, and hardly ever slide/polka people, and my repertoire reflects that. Gets embarrassing, that, in some sessions.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Dow
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
That's a good post Jim, thanks.
I'm sure the quote from Matt Cranitch is out of context. He could have been saying something like, "strictly speaking, any tune with division of 3 over 8 is a jig. So, ergo, slides are jigs". But that doesn't help. A push bike is a bike, a motor bike is a bike, they both have two wheels. But are their similarities more important than their distinctions?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
What would this be , then ?
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5044
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Kenny
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
llig - muneras, [ can't do the squiggle ] - Galician/Asturian equivalent of slides, perhaps ?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Kenny
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I've never come across that tune before, Kenny, but seeing it on paper, I'd play it as a jig. As is, it seems very "busy". If I was to play it as a slide, I'd probs simplify it a bit and smooth it out so that e.g. BGB BAG|F becomes B3 BAG|F, just to make it less jig-like. To me it looks like one of those tunes you can easily make into either jig or slide, depending on your mood and what you do with it.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Dow
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
A slide is a single jig, but not all single jigs are slides. Didn't Matt Crannitch say that too?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by Robert Ryan
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Matt Crannitch has not been endowed with papal infallibility.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by dafydd
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Wouldn't life and music be absolutely boring, if everything was restricted to set formula, rules, and whatever. Much better to have a bit of creativity, which is what music should be about.
Now if my esteemed friend Mr Llig wants to say "A slide is a single jig" well congratulations to him, for breaking free from limits set by timing, however that works. To me, who doesn't understand 5/7 or 6/8 or any of that, a slide is indeed a single jig, in a carefree musical way, rather than seeing music as a discipline to be mastered.
Here's to exploring the endless possibilities of music, rather than its limits, and a carefree inspirational spirit.
Matt Cranitch, whoever he may be, is entitled to his humble opinion, just as Llig is entitled to his. On this occasion, Llig is undoubtedly right, possibly for different reasons than my cry for freedom of expression.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Years ago I possessed the album "Flute For The Feis" by piccolo player John Doonan. I believe the tracks Smash The Windows/ Off She Goes, and/or Saddle The Pony/Shandon Bells, were labelled "single jigs". I don't think any of these are slides - they're generally written in 6/8, anyway. I conclude that in these cases "single jig" was a dance term and referred to 6/8s played at a particular tempo.
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by nicholas
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"I state a fact, how he or any one has the audacity to argue the point is beyond me."
Wasn't that a line from the Stalin movie, years back? Remember, when he was dressing down the peasants at the railway station?
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by grego
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Following up on ramblingpitchfork's post, here are the top 10 single jigs according to irishtune.info:
Hag at the Churn
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/829
The Old Hag at the Kiln
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/185
John McHugh's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/865
Miller's Maggot
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/333
Ballintore Fancy
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6764
Kerry Jig
apparently here only in a reel version
Pat Ward's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1964
Behind the Bush in the Garden
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1888
Off She Goes
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1133
Ask My Father
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2288
And the top 10 slides:
Star above the Garter
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1398
The Old Favourite
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/56
Denis Murphy's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/159
The Toormore Slide
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/110
Eileen O'Riordan's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4375
Gale Bridge
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7459
Chase Me Charlie
apparently not here
The Hare in the Corn
not the one that's here
Pádraig O'Keeffe's
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1527
Brosna
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1414
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Oh no, sir, Llig is not mistaken. If you carry on like this you're going to drive me into applying for the directorship of his fan club. I really can't understand what's driven me to this viewpoint over the last couple of weks. Sometimes I think my brain has a mind of its own.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
weks? I'm sre you knw wha I mean.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I dont think a slide is a single jig,
In my experience,single jigs are danced by step dancers,and danced a little slower than a double jig,metronome speed about105,double jig speed,would be about 115,slides are much faster144,and are danced in sets.
However it would be quite possible to use a tune described in Oneills as a single jig[ask my father]as a slide if one so wished,but then the same could be said of many tunes.
Simon Thoumire plays Madam Bonaparte[normally a hornpipe] as a reel,
I have also heard the Scholar played as both a hornpipe and a Reel.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
In The masters touch by seamus ennis,there is adescription of a single jig,quote[this is asingle jig.its time signatureis12/8 and has four beats ineach bar ,it is played with a jaunty jerking gait.Be careful to accentuate the four beats in each bar [1, 4, 7 10,]bar,otherwise you may find yourself inadvertently playing in hornpipe time].
Frahers jig is also described by Ennis as a single jig,the first bar of which consists,of twelve notes[four groups of three].
you wont find many slides like that.
Kathleen Hehirs[Slide]was described by JacKie Daly[To a friend of mine]as a tune that is better played at a slower speed than a normal slide[I think he meant it had too many notes to work really well as a slide],that is also my opinion of Merrily kissed The Quaker.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Hugo ya I just cut paste but but gill has it here
"Of couse you would mistake a slide for a jig, if you didn't know what a slide was. All this referencing to how you would notate it is a red herring. It's the feel of it, and that's not in the time signiture" Slides almost have a bounce and tempo to them thats hard to explain.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Saint
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"strictly speaking slides are single jigs"
The "strictly speaking" of the above quote from Matt Crannitch is worth noting. To me this implies that in Matt's classification slides form a very distinctive subset of tunes within a larger group that he defines as "single jigs".
Far from equating "slide" as being synonomous with "single jig" the quoted text appears* to be pointing out that in Matt Cranitch's opinion slides are in fact a subset of "single jig" _despite_ their obvious distinctiveness.
*of course it is difficult to be sure of this without seeing the overall context of the quotation, but that is what I would take out of this statement.
Cheers - Chris
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
free,
Francis Oneill was from near Bantry [CoCork] south west of ireland,Not far from sliabh luchra,he states in his book that he collected tunes in amongst other places west carberry[co Cork].
as he was in this area collecting, should we ask ourselves why did he not collect any slides ,when he collected single jigs,are they a more recent dance or did Oneill not recognise them as a dance,or did he consider them the same as a slide?
I have seen them both danced and they are not the same.,but some of the single jigs tunes could be used as slides.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by dickens metrognome
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
It's been amusing watching you backpedal through this thread, mr tradpiper. First you said slides and single jigs are synonymous, now they are not?
And all while insulting people throughout. The simple truth is that what you consider to be a fact is often not considered to be a fact by others, and it would do you well to keep that in mind in your future discourse.
Slides do not sound like single jigs to me at all, and while I don't have your illustrious heritage and pedigree, I do listen a lot to fiddlers from Sliabh Luacra and other very good musicians.
I agree, the time signature discussion is pointless, it doesn't answer anything, and to say that because something is in 12/9 it must therefore be a single jig (or a slide) is wrong. A hornpipe could easily be notated in 12/8. Does that automatically make it a slide or a single jig? No, of course not.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Nico
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
12/9 should be 12/8 obviously.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by Nico
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I bet some people here own a lot of anoraks? 12/8, 12/10, 3/6, and the rest. Just go with the flow, express yourself. Rigidity stifles music.
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
I've been thinking about this over the course of this thread, and it seems to me that slides and single jigs form a sort of spectrum.
If we take GaryAMartin's lists of slides and single jigs posted above as the start, and granted that I, and many others, will know just about all of those tunes, there are certain tunes that are in the 'single jigs' list that feel more like 'slides' and certain tunes in the 'slides' list that feel more like single jigs.
What I'm trying to get at is, within this spectrum of tunes that are clearly not double jigs, there are some that have Dow's 'macrorhythmic' thing of going over barlines, or feeling like they're in 12/8 however they're notated; and there are some that feel like 6/8 tunes, even if they're notated in 12/8.
I think it's further confused because different people use different terminology. For instance, I've noticed that some - me included - see slides as being basically 12/8 tunes and single jigs as basically 6/8 tunes. But others don't see it that way.
A puzzle ...
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
... and one which isn't solved by reference to dance steps. Because often you *can* use the same tune for a 'single jig' as for a 'slide'.
Hmmm ...
# Posted on August 24th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
A Wexford man once told me the difference between a jig and a reel. "A jig, jigs, and a reel, reels" he said.
Wonderful.
# Posted on August 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
"The first note of each bar is clearly emphasized." But then the piece goes on to say that it is not clear whether there are 4 bars in 12/8 or eight bars in 6/8. Not that clearly emphasised then.
# Posted on September 2nd 2007 by betweentheacts
Re: A 'slide' s a single jig. A 'jig' is a double jig
Slides and single jigs are both in 12/8 time. It's a bit like Frank Carson's jokes (it's the way you tell them} it's the way you play them. Single jigs have a "hop" feel to them while slides are smooth and are best visualised by thinking of Kerry set dancers in full flight.
# Posted on September 2nd 2007 by Bannerman