Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I just don't get you tradpiper. This is such an irrelevant of pile of pish. Some times, since you've showed up here, you've posted some reasonable stuff. But I just get the feeling, considering the sheer weight of your postings, that these are mere coincidence. Like the chimp typing eventually typing the complete works of Shakespeare
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
So what do you recomend Ilig?
There's some sound advice there. Why not consider it?
If it can help some, why not let it be known?
The classical tradition stems from a popular tradition in itself. I like to think about those seldom-talked about gigs father Bach used to do in the beerhouses with a handful of other drunks. And then becoming one of the cornerstones of western music in the long run.
What this classical guy is explaining is no more than common sense. What's wrong with that?
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
There once was a fella named Trad
And sometimes his spelling was bad
But with thousands of posts and some curious boasts
It sent Llig and all raving mad
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
There once was a fellow named tradpiper
who appeared to be quite a guttersniper
The daft clown was hard to pin down
even though his postings were hyper
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Look ladies and gents, we're talking about folk music, and what makes it great. The fact is I've heard people that have spent their lives doing hard physical labour everyday, have fingers like gnarled tree stumps then sit down and play the fiddle or the box and get everyone tapping there feet and jumping about. That is what its all about for me, the secret of how THEY do it.
I don't agree that viewing a classical musicians technique should be a "humbling" experience, especially for someone playing Irish music.
Have you ever heard some of these classical fiddlers play jazz, they don't swing, some of them do, but most don't.
Most of them can't make the fiddle throb in ITM either, and let's face it, , good fiddler's throb.
I must go now, 'tis late and I fear I've had too much too drink!
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Thank goodness for a bit of sense. I said at the top here about the irrelevance of your violin masterclass.
If you wish to perform music which is technically demanding then your posture and whole technique is very important. With this music, it simply isn't. I had a good look through that website and there was not one thing on it that would help you play this music, not one single thing. You could argue that non of it would hurt either, but spending your time polishing all this stuff is a distraction.
And you expect people to be humbled/depressed by seeing all this technique. And you offer the advice that instead you should be inspired by it. It really does astonish me how little you know.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I'm not humbled at all by what is essentially an aristocratic tradition. I'm rather more infuriated that I might still be expected to doff my cap & feel bad (depressed).
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
This site is very useful,vibrato is important[ providing its not overdone] to add feeling to slow airs,I use it on the concertina,but have never been able to do it on the fiddle,but using his method,I have just got it going.Dick Miles
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
No, wrong on many accounts.
Liz Doherty did lecture at UCC for seven years but ended her tenure in 2001. She is currently working for the Arts Council. Yes, she's a brilliant musician, but she'd regard any suggestion that she is somehow better than Michael Coleman as utterly laughable.
'Micheal Coleman ..... well put it this way He has the tunes, and i would never knock another musician. So all i can say is he can be a bit scratchy, personal taste again , as to what you as an individual like.'
Michael Coleman 'a bit scratchy? Excuse me while I just nip outside the door and bang my head against the nearest oak tree for the next ten minutes. By the way, this is a comment from someone who's biog includes 'I like the sligo and more northern styles best.......so thats a little bit about me......'
Then there's this sprightlyh piece of nonsense - 'After all is it relevant in any way who you learn the mechanics of your instrument from?'
Absolutely! Listen to, say, Zoe Conway and Malachy Bourke (the former classically-trained) and appreciate that Malachy has the 'nya' while Zoe's still endlessly trying to find it. Go further, delve back into the past, and listen to James Galway trying to play trad with The Chieftains. Matt Molloy probably still shudders at those memories.
Why should the fiddle have 'a beautiful singing tone'? Your claim to 'like northern styles best' reveals yet another facet of your seemingly all-consuming ignorance. Heaven knows what John Doherty, Johnnie Loughran or Jim McKillop would make of such a comment.
Then there's this piece of aesthetic fluff in the wind - 'Art crosses all boundaries. Whether it is 'politically correct ' or not.' No, it doesn't. Art only crosses boundaries when it becomes a force for change and that requires social or political appreciation of its potential impact and the will to achieve such change.
Dick Miles has also joined this thread. Vibrato in the playing of slow airs is only utilised by those incapable of achieving a melodic impact by more natural means.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
You're judging Michael Coleman by his recordings, made with the technology available when he recorded over 50 years ago. I think you could maybe find better examples to illustrate what it is you're trying to say.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I had a good twenty years of classical training. Yes it helped me learn how to hold the violin, use the bow, place the notes etc. but playing classical style and traditional style are worlds apart. For someone learning the basics of the fiddle that site may be useful, but as an aid to learning trad, which is what we are about here, it adds very little value.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I don't understand why some people think that having classical technique is incompatible with playing ITM. To give just one example Paddy Glackin had some classical lessons and there is nothing wrong with his playing.
I think this site could be very helpful to a lot of people, never mind whether you want to do vibrato or not,(and personally I think it can add to a slow air if not overdone) There is also useful information here about how to hold the violin and bow, the correct height for a shoulder rest, or indeed he suggests you may not need one if you have a short neck; all this sort of thing could help stop you getting neck and back problems from playing in a bad position.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Classical technique is not incompatible with trad, and I have said before on this site that it can be helpful for perventing problems with stiffness/joints etc. I was pointing out that classical training will not help you to get the feel/essence of trad. That is something completely different which is best picked up by playing with other trad musicians and really listening to it until it becomes completely instilled into your playing.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
macCruiskeen,please feel free to visit my website http://www.dickmiles.com/introduction.htm.
there you will hear a slow air,thisair does contain small amount of vibrato.I am proud of this recording,and Ihope you enjoy it too.
Bowburner,I agree totally with your last statement.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Actually I've done all the above, well most, I draw the line at sleeping with horses and dogs and furze cutting, but I read about that in Return of the Native so I think that counts, but they haven't helped my fiddle playing. I think I'll stick to listening and joining in thanks all the same.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Tradpiper/Hard to pin down/Will Evans/furze cutter/Mick Dials/whatever your name is,
You seem to suffer from attention deficiency disorder or at least partial amnesia.
1) 'I made no suggestion that Liz was any 'better' than Micheal.'
Here's exactly what you wrote regarding Liz Doherty and Michael Coleman:
'She is a brilliant player, I know one of her students who also is a brilliant player. Micheal [sic] Coleman ..... well put it this way He has the tunes, and i would never knock another musician. So all i can say is he can be a bit scratchy, personal taste again , as to what you as an individual like.'
Please explain to me how that juxtaposition cannot be interpreted as your belief that Liz is not a 'better' player than Coleman?
2) 'You do seem to suggest however that Malachy has something that Zoe does not, whether i agree or not is my choice and right , i do not profess to know what is 'better'.I simply suggested people could make there own minds up.'
Of course I'm suggesting that Malachy's music has something which Zoe's lacks (a lack of artificiality for a start!). However, every single message amongst the now hundreds which you've posted on this site reveals a disturbing lack of critical sense or ability. Any even half-baked reading of even a smidgeon of aesthetic theory would lead you to the understanding that there is no such thing as good taste (or bad taste for that matter). Every art-form has its own innate guiding principles. The utilisation of classical techniques to explore traditional music produces essentially sterile results.
3) 'sorry what does ''sprightlyh '' ,mean?'
The King of Typos asks this?
4) 'I clearly didn't say a fiddle 'should' have a beautiful singing tone, only that I as an individual aim for that, which is my right.'
I apologize for misinterpreting your remark and I hope you achieve your aim, but check your Irish mythology for the possible after-effects.
5) 'This sir is your opinion, It does however sound dogmatic to me ; ''Then there's this piece of aesthetic fluff in the wind - 'Art crosses all boundaries. Whether it is 'politically correct ' or not.' No, it doesn't. Art only crosses boundaries when it becomes a force for change and that requires social or political appreciation of its potential impact and the will to achieve such change'' So it does then ? strange, you seem to contradict your self in the same sentence.'
No, you wrote 'art crosses all boundaries'. I wrote that 'art only crosses boundaries when ...'. There is a more than subtle difference between the two.
6) 'Re Mr Miles playing. that is your opinion, It is also a touch insulting, but i expect no more from you.'
I made absolutely no comment on the playing of Dick Miles.
7) 'You seem to be confusing styles, with individuals but perhaps i am mistaken, please do expound as to how ,you in your wisdom see 'Northern 'styles, and where that boundary lies. A man made border perhaps or the sea to scotland or further north? I am genuinely interested as you are I'm sure , quite knowledgeable.'
I drew upon the names of Doherty, Loughran and McKillop to illustrate that I suspect you don't know what you're talking about - three fiddlers from three different parts of Ulster and three entirely different styles of playing. I could also have mentioned Antoin Mac Gabhainn from Cavan or Mick Hoy from Fermanagh or Brendan McGlinchey from Armagh, each of whom encapsulates musical expressions of their own local upbringing.
I was using names merely to illustrate the breadth of playing across the north of Ireland.
To me the term 'northern style' (in reference to players from the Ulster province) is entirely vacuous. I'd prefer reference to local styles within that region.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I've mentioned your man's attention deficiency disorder before. It just makes it impossible to converse with the fellow. You try very hard to dig out a relevant point and off he goes. Pointless.
I picture him as one of those guys with half a dozen or so weekly regular solo gigs in those strange quiet modern rural pubs in the west with carpets and smart barmen polishing glasses. And him in the corner surrounded by his plethora of instruments and his pair of bose speakers on stands blasting out his backing tracks. And he's just that little bit too loud, but not quite so loud as you'd complain. What do you reckon?
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Sure, Trad piper I may have exaggerated about Classical fiddle players being unable to do this and do that. I can blame that statement on the drink last night. I do agree partially with some of the posts that a few technical tricks or disciplines can be more than helpful when playing and I by no means mean to rubbish anyone doing that sort of training.
However, great blues comes from the torn soul, great jazz comes from the mind and great Irish music comes from deep within the chest right down to the feet. Classical musicians often operate ( I feel) and work on the music from the outside, which is valid and often necessary due to the amount of people involved. Thats why I am not humbled by it.
I do wish you and llig could work something out. Or are you really the same person like that Johnny Dep movie?
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Actually, I got a lot out of the section on intonation, and the different tuning systems.
Any musician can benefit by paying careful attention to intonation. Actually, I wish more people would - especially combining fiddles with, say, pipes, which will have three or four different and distinct E notes. for example.
I've noticed that a lot of good pipers and fiddlers, for example, will flatten their E's in a modal tune in D with a gapped scale (the Hag tunes come to mind, though I hear it more strongly in reels.
I became a much more successful ensemble player when I realized that and had the wherewithal to adjust to match that.
So I'm glad this got posted. I don't play classical, but I think classical music and baroque music is beautiful, and they've got a lot of careful thought and attention to detail built up over the centuries that's worth considering.
Llig -- chill, dude.
I got something out of this, and it made me a better trad player.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I talk out out of my @rse and I find the resonance quite warm and pleasing.
Grappelli saw the light and gave up the scales and joined Django.
I enjoy your posts immensely mr piper and your on site war
with llig and key maniac lad is second to none in the entertainment stakes, but I find sometimes you can be a sarcastic b!tch.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Thingummybob's last post reminds me of Pilib O'Conchubhair - remember him? Quite a delicious spoof with his "piping class" etc. He also used to miss some of his capital letters, and wrote, for example, in http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8643:
"Not only that. the music is part of the country itself. Its crags and mosses. the barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the fog drifting through the gorse and heather of Binn Earagail'. Because they are born with this and walk to school each day through it they grasp the point and play beautifully."
But did anybody ever figure out who he was?
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I've always found that people with a classical training can still do fine on fiddle if they understand how different the styles are. It's the incredibly disciplined strict classical ones that have such a lack of experience with anything traditional that end up sounding like those awful orchestrated pseudo irish sh*te compilations. My friend plays old time fiddle and he tried to explain to a classical violinist that there is a note between a sharp and a natural, blew her fecking mind. And you should've seen when I tried to explain that the hornpipe didn't sound like the sheet music said it should.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
You know, he's tried a lot of forums this year - soundsonsound, tribal living, guitar for beginners, current tv, dell, digital musician ... and is that him on Tom Coyote, talking about Microsoft Vista upgrades?
And, of course, he's just joined YouTube as a user, too. not many comments there, though - I think he's getting all the attention he clearly craves right here.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Of course you do realise that you can't play proper classical music unless you have waltzed with princes, danced with Prima Donnas, lived among the vistas of the alps, fought in battles against Napoleon, dined with Mozart, ridden with the Valkeyries etc. Just in case any of you had any pretentions towards achieving that illustrious aim....
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
To whom are you writing HTPD aka Trad Piper? It often (and I mean often) looks to me like you are addressing fresh air. In fact, more disturbingly, it seems that here you are ranting against the title of this thread, one I note you fabricated yourself. It gets more like fight club by the hour.
However, I'm pleased to note you enjoy watching TV programmes such as The Pure Drop and have managed to find an album by the little known band Lunnessa. Also great to know you have the entire works of J. S. Bach right there.
These are the sort of things I look into this forum to find out.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
HTPD mocking is nasty and I do not do it, it was never my intention to mock. You were saying you had to have slept under the moon of erin etc, in order to play the music (if I have understood correctly) I was making good humoured mischief in making my suggestions re the background required for classical music. I never thought of you as afflicted and I don't know where that comment came from.
I am not here to fight or to have malicious arguments with anyone. I am here to learn about Irish music and to have some fun. If my responses upset you then I will not respond to any more of your posts.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
HTPD I think we are both trying to understand each other but we keep missing somehow. I'll try to explain my point, but if we miss again we may have to leave it until we have had chance to get to know and understand each other better.
I don't claim to be an expert in trad, I was classically trained to play classical music and the style is very prescribed/accurate you play what you are told to play, exactly as the dots say you should and there is very little opportunity for self expression (ok some classical musicians may debate this point, but the opportunities for self expression are perhaps less in classical than trad). Of course you can tell the difference between the playing style of violinists, but it is very subtle. A classical training, while being very good for teaching about good posture and technique, which as has been said before are good for preventing physical problems later, it does not encourage so much of the creative flow that trad does. One of the biggest challenges for me in moving to trad was stepping out of the rigidity of classical music to playing without the dots and playing by ear, adding ornaments and just getting the general feel for the music. I am still learning this and I find this site very useful.
My point about the moon of erin/dancing with princes I suppose is that we have often had the discussion on this site of do you need to be irish to play irish music? The point that came out of that for me was that we don't expect classical students to have grown up surrounded by classical music, and yet they still seem able to do it beautifully. Perhaps it is part of our culture that naturally enables this, but I would think as time moves on and popular music increases it's hold, this is becoming less likely. It therefore suggests that if we can play classical music without the background, then surely we must be able to play Irish music without necessarily having the background?
My conclusion, at the moment, is that it is possible to become adept at whichever style you listen to most. You are what you play every day.
I hope that clears up where I am coming from. I am sure there are other classical musicians on this site who could explain the points further and who have their own experiences to share.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
One of the key rites of passage into the classical tradition, as far as I can see, involves rising out of the sea clad in a diaphanous garment in front of a camera.
As my image in these circumstances would bust the camera, I do not think I am cut out for a career in classical music.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Cathycook writes: "To give just one example Paddy Glackin had some classical lessons and there is nothing wrong with his playing."
I gotta say that this is a clear example of a player who got a very little learning in Classical music and concluded that all tunes must fit into some major key or other. He does not listen with care to the old masters of Donegal fiddle. He cleans up Donegal music while claiming to preserve it. You will find none of the wild rhythms, none of the non-standard scale tunings, none of the fondness for dischord. There are still real traditional musicians around and many recordings of good stuff, he has no excuse!
I certainly don't think that Classical training will forever ruin a traditional player, though it happens a lot (look at the depressing state of some Scottish fiddling), but arrogance and bias in favour of Classical playing style will! As long as the player listens to the traditional style and Classical technique, rhythm and playing style are not allowed to trump the traditional sound, damage to the tradition ought to be avoided. I think that sparse and arrogant learning are the problem. I have played with continental fiddlers who have studied baroque and early music, and they were far more likely to see where their playing fell short of real traditional musicians. The reason is they are more widely educated, more open-minded, and have a better ear, and are not so convinced that their usual manner of playing is superior to the old masters of traditional music.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Dear Nine--
Thank you for pointing to this site. As a fiddler who
has never had the benefit of formal instruction, I look
constantly for serious tips on technique and equipment.
I really like what you had to say.
As far as the comments by those blockheaded scrapers--
well, you know the old saying--"No good deed goes unpunished".
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Personally, I hold the fiddle and bow in a fairly conventional classical way, and, like Yehudi Menuhin, without a shoulder-rest. My point is that some players who have absorbed some classical training end up playing Irish music as if it were light classical music, and I really don't like it, (and I don’t think that they preserve the traditional music, because their little learning in classical music has made them arrogant, they have sanitised Irish music, and their little training has made them not very good traditional players. Many of the greatest Scottish fiddlers could play some light classical music, but they did not impose this style on the traditional material. Alasdair Fraser says that the classicalization of Scottish music has ruined much of it, it’s robbed the tradition of its wildness and its energy. I’d prefer if this didn’t happen to Irish music. I didn’t say we should just mimic other players, it’s just that we should be careful not to end up with an insipid musical tradition.
Here's a link to Alasdair Fraser's interview, it's a good read:
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
"my reason in posting this link was to show how good technique can aid a player in performing"
"If you wish to perform music which is technically demanding then your posture and whole technique is very important. With this music, it simply isn't"
I'd like to get to a point where repeating my self was simpler
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Not really on topic, but DH and I recently joined in a "Family Fun Day - have a go and join an orchestra" charity thing. DH on fidlle - joined the violins and me on concertina played 1st (and only) oboe. Fun and all in a good cause, but talking to the younger musicians there I realised how lucky us folk musicians are. Wherever we are (well mostly) we can look out for and find people to play music with, we don't have to get a balanced orchestra together, assign parts, get scores etc. (Or count 17 bar rests, like oboes do!)
Even practising is fun, learning new tunes, getting to grips and dusting off rusty ones, etc. These classically trained kids really enjoyed palying in the orchestra, but how difficult it must be to go home and practise - working on a piece for a grade exam, making sure you can do the little twiddy bit after the 17 bar rest when it finally comes along, and only rarely hearing what the whole thing sounds like when it all comes together properly.
This may not apply to the top class professionals, but surely does for us lesser mortals - I'm sure us more moderately talented trad players have vastly more opportunities to play than similar levels in the classical style.
Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I just don't get you tradpiper. This is such an irrelevant of pile of pish. Some times, since you've showed up here, you've posted some reasonable stuff. But I just get the feeling, considering the sheer weight of your postings, that these are mere coincidence. Like the chimp typing eventually typing the complete works of Shakespeare
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
So what do you recomend Ilig?
There's some sound advice there. Why not consider it?
If it can help some, why not let it be known?
The classical tradition stems from a popular tradition in itself. I like to think about those seldom-talked about gigs father Bach used to do in the beerhouses with a handful of other drunks. And then becoming one of the cornerstones of western music in the long run.
What this classical guy is explaining is no more than common sense. What's wrong with that?
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Fanning
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
There once was a fella named Trad
And sometimes his spelling was bad
But with thousands of posts and some curious boasts
It sent Llig and all raving mad
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Thank you for posting the link- I enjoyed it.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Murph
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
There once was a fellow named tradpiper
who appeared to be quite a guttersniper
The daft clown was hard to pin down
even though his postings were hyper
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Thanks for posting the link, to the violin lessons, thats good as its the same instrument, im sure Sean Maguire would have agreed too!
Being taught classically (at the same time as learning trad) in my opinion is great!
Check out
http://www.theviolinsite.com/index.html
also for loads of free video lessons.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Kess
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Look ladies and gents, we're talking about folk music, and what makes it great. The fact is I've heard people that have spent their lives doing hard physical labour everyday, have fingers like gnarled tree stumps then sit down and play the fiddle or the box and get everyone tapping there feet and jumping about. That is what its all about for me, the secret of how THEY do it.
I don't agree that viewing a classical musicians technique should be a "humbling" experience, especially for someone playing Irish music.
Have you ever heard some of these classical fiddlers play jazz, they don't swing, some of them do, but most don't.
Most of them can't make the fiddle throb in ITM either, and let's face it, , good fiddler's throb.
I must go now, 'tis late and I fear I've had too much too drink!
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Thank goodness for a bit of sense. I said at the top here about the irrelevance of your violin masterclass.
If you wish to perform music which is technically demanding then your posture and whole technique is very important. With this music, it simply isn't. I had a good look through that website and there was not one thing on it that would help you play this music, not one single thing. You could argue that non of it would hurt either, but spending your time polishing all this stuff is a distraction.
And you expect people to be humbled/depressed by seeing all this technique. And you offer the advice that instead you should be inspired by it. It really does astonish me how little you know.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I don't think you should be surprised by now, Michael ...
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I'm not humbled at all by what is essentially an aristocratic tradition. I'm rather more infuriated that I might still be expected to doff my cap & feel bad (depressed).
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Why did you choose Michael Coleman and Liz Doherty ?
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
This site is very useful,vibrato is important[ providing its not overdone] to add feeling to slow airs,I use it on the concertina,but have never been able to do it on the fiddle,but using his method,I have just got it going.Dick Miles
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Dick Miles
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
No, wrong on many accounts.
Liz Doherty did lecture at UCC for seven years but ended her tenure in 2001. She is currently working for the Arts Council. Yes, she's a brilliant musician, but she'd regard any suggestion that she is somehow better than Michael Coleman as utterly laughable.
'Micheal Coleman ..... well put it this way He has the tunes, and i would never knock another musician. So all i can say is he can be a bit scratchy, personal taste again , as to what you as an individual like.'
Michael Coleman 'a bit scratchy? Excuse me while I just nip outside the door and bang my head against the nearest oak tree for the next ten minutes. By the way, this is a comment from someone who's biog includes 'I like the sligo and more northern styles best.......so thats a little bit about me......'
Then there's this sprightlyh piece of nonsense - 'After all is it relevant in any way who you learn the mechanics of your instrument from?'
Absolutely! Listen to, say, Zoe Conway and Malachy Bourke (the former classically-trained) and appreciate that Malachy has the 'nya' while Zoe's still endlessly trying to find it. Go further, delve back into the past, and listen to James Galway trying to play trad with The Chieftains. Matt Molloy probably still shudders at those memories.
Why should the fiddle have 'a beautiful singing tone'? Your claim to 'like northern styles best' reveals yet another facet of your seemingly all-consuming ignorance. Heaven knows what John Doherty, Johnnie Loughran or Jim McKillop would make of such a comment.
Then there's this piece of aesthetic fluff in the wind - 'Art crosses all boundaries. Whether it is 'politically correct ' or not.' No, it doesn't. Art only crosses boundaries when it becomes a force for change and that requires social or political appreciation of its potential impact and the will to achieve such change.
Dick Miles has also joined this thread. Vibrato in the playing of slow airs is only utilised by those incapable of achieving a melodic impact by more natural means.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Htpd, I've simply quoted from your own blog and postings. If you're too cerebrally-challenged to recall them, well ....
If I had to take you on board, it would be a one-way trip to the place where Tony Mac Mahon stashed all the accordions.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
You're judging Michael Coleman by his recordings, made with the technology available when he recorded over 50 years ago. I think you could maybe find better examples to illustrate what it is you're trying to say.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Agreed 100% - so I don't see the point in any comparison.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I had a good twenty years of classical training. Yes it helped me learn how to hold the violin, use the bow, place the notes etc. but playing classical style and traditional style are worlds apart. For someone learning the basics of the fiddle that site may be useful, but as an aid to learning trad, which is what we are about here, it adds very little value.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I don't understand why some people think that having classical technique is incompatible with playing ITM. To give just one example Paddy Glackin had some classical lessons and there is nothing wrong with his playing.
I think this site could be very helpful to a lot of people, never mind whether you want to do vibrato or not,(and personally I think it can add to a slow air if not overdone) There is also useful information here about how to hold the violin and bow, the correct height for a shoulder rest, or indeed he suggests you may not need one if you have a short neck; all this sort of thing could help stop you getting neck and back problems from playing in a bad position.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by cathycook
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Classical technique is not incompatible with trad, and I have said before on this site that it can be helpful for perventing problems with stiffness/joints etc. I was pointing out that classical training will not help you to get the feel/essence of trad. That is something completely different which is best picked up by playing with other trad musicians and really listening to it until it becomes completely instilled into your playing.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
macCruiskeen,please feel free to visit my website http://www.dickmiles.com/introduction.htm.
there you will hear a slow air,thisair does contain small amount of vibrato.I am proud of this recording,and Ihope you enjoy it too.
Bowburner,I agree totally with your last statement.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by Dick Miles
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I'll have what you're having
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Actually I've done all the above, well most, I draw the line at sleeping with horses and dogs and furze cutting, but I read about that in Return of the Native so I think that counts, but they haven't helped my fiddle playing. I think I'll stick to listening and joining in thanks all the same.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
ah, Hardy's was Wessex furze, not Irish furze, perhaps that's where I was going wrong?
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Tradpiper/Hard to pin down/Will Evans/furze cutter/Mick Dials/whatever your name is,
You seem to suffer from attention deficiency disorder or at least partial amnesia.
1) 'I made no suggestion that Liz was any 'better' than Micheal.'
Here's exactly what you wrote regarding Liz Doherty and Michael Coleman:
'She is a brilliant player, I know one of her students who also is a brilliant player. Micheal [sic] Coleman ..... well put it this way He has the tunes, and i would never knock another musician. So all i can say is he can be a bit scratchy, personal taste again , as to what you as an individual like.'
Please explain to me how that juxtaposition cannot be interpreted as your belief that Liz is not a 'better' player than Coleman?
2) 'You do seem to suggest however that Malachy has something that Zoe does not, whether i agree or not is my choice and right , i do not profess to know what is 'better'.I simply suggested people could make there own minds up.'
Of course I'm suggesting that Malachy's music has something which Zoe's lacks (a lack of artificiality for a start!). However, every single message amongst the now hundreds which you've posted on this site reveals a disturbing lack of critical sense or ability. Any even half-baked reading of even a smidgeon of aesthetic theory would lead you to the understanding that there is no such thing as good taste (or bad taste for that matter). Every art-form has its own innate guiding principles. The utilisation of classical techniques to explore traditional music produces essentially sterile results.
3) 'sorry what does ''sprightlyh '' ,mean?'
The King of Typos asks this?
4) 'I clearly didn't say a fiddle 'should' have a beautiful singing tone, only that I as an individual aim for that, which is my right.'
I apologize for misinterpreting your remark and I hope you achieve your aim, but check your Irish mythology for the possible after-effects.
5) 'This sir is your opinion, It does however sound dogmatic to me ; ''Then there's this piece of aesthetic fluff in the wind - 'Art crosses all boundaries. Whether it is 'politically correct ' or not.' No, it doesn't. Art only crosses boundaries when it becomes a force for change and that requires social or political appreciation of its potential impact and the will to achieve such change'' So it does then ? strange, you seem to contradict your self in the same sentence.'
No, you wrote 'art crosses all boundaries'. I wrote that 'art only crosses boundaries when ...'. There is a more than subtle difference between the two.
6) 'Re Mr Miles playing. that is your opinion, It is also a touch insulting, but i expect no more from you.'
I made absolutely no comment on the playing of Dick Miles.
7) 'You seem to be confusing styles, with individuals but perhaps i am mistaken, please do expound as to how ,you in your wisdom see 'Northern 'styles, and where that boundary lies. A man made border perhaps or the sea to scotland or further north? I am genuinely interested as you are I'm sure , quite knowledgeable.'
I drew upon the names of Doherty, Loughran and McKillop to illustrate that I suspect you don't know what you're talking about - three fiddlers from three different parts of Ulster and three entirely different styles of playing. I could also have mentioned Antoin Mac Gabhainn from Cavan or Mick Hoy from Fermanagh or Brendan McGlinchey from Armagh, each of whom encapsulates musical expressions of their own local upbringing.
I was using names merely to illustrate the breadth of playing across the north of Ireland.
To me the term 'northern style' (in reference to players from the Ulster province) is entirely vacuous. I'd prefer reference to local styles within that region.
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I've mentioned your man's attention deficiency disorder before. It just makes it impossible to converse with the fellow. You try very hard to dig out a relevant point and off he goes. Pointless.
I picture him as one of those guys with half a dozen or so weekly regular solo gigs in those strange quiet modern rural pubs in the west with carpets and smart barmen polishing glasses. And him in the corner surrounded by his plethora of instruments and his pair of bose speakers on stands blasting out his backing tracks. And he's just that little bit too loud, but not quite so loud as you'd complain. What do you reckon?
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I reckon he probably throws in the odd soliloquy, or poetry rendition, just to make the evening's entertainment complete.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
tee hee, and the poor saps on holiday from Seejithorpe ask for more and he plays his GHPs
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Ha ha ha, that's feckin brilliant ... I typed S c u n t h o r p e ... ho bloody ho
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Sure, Trad piper I may have exaggerated about Classical fiddle players being unable to do this and do that. I can blame that statement on the drink last night. I do agree partially with some of the posts that a few technical tricks or disciplines can be more than helpful when playing and I by no means mean to rubbish anyone doing that sort of training.
However, great blues comes from the torn soul, great jazz comes from the mind and great Irish music comes from deep within the chest right down to the feet. Classical musicians often operate ( I feel) and work on the music from the outside, which is valid and often necessary due to the amount of people involved. Thats why I am not humbled by it.
I do wish you and llig could work something out. Or are you really the same person like that Johnny Dep movie?
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Actually, I got a lot out of the section on intonation, and the different tuning systems.
Any musician can benefit by paying careful attention to intonation. Actually, I wish more people would - especially combining fiddles with, say, pipes, which will have three or four different and distinct E notes. for example.
I've noticed that a lot of good pipers and fiddlers, for example, will flatten their E's in a modal tune in D with a gapped scale (the Hag tunes come to mind, though I hear it more strongly in reels.
I became a much more successful ensemble player when I realized that and had the wherewithal to adjust to match that.
So I'm glad this got posted. I don't play classical, but I think classical music and baroque music is beautiful, and they've got a lot of careful thought and attention to detail built up over the centuries that's worth considering.
Llig -- chill, dude.
I got something out of this, and it made me a better trad player.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I talk out out of my @rse and I find the resonance quite warm and pleasing.
Grappelli saw the light and gave up the scales and joined Django.
I enjoy your posts immensely mr piper and your on site war
with llig and key maniac lad is second to none in the entertainment stakes, but I find sometimes you can be a sarcastic b!tch.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Tradpiper, you seem to have learnt how to do capital letters consistently just in a matter of days. Congratulations.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Thingummybob's last post reminds me of Pilib O'Conchubhair - remember him? Quite a delicious spoof with his "piping class" etc. He also used to miss some of his capital letters, and wrote, for example, in http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8643:
"Not only that. the music is part of the country itself. Its crags and mosses. the barking of Irish dogs and lowing of Irish cattle have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the fog drifting through the gorse and heather of Binn Earagail'. Because they are born with this and walk to school each day through it they grasp the point and play beautifully."
But did anybody ever figure out who he was?
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
I've always found that people with a classical training can still do fine on fiddle if they understand how different the styles are. It's the incredibly disciplined strict classical ones that have such a lack of experience with anything traditional that end up sounding like those awful orchestrated pseudo irish sh*te compilations. My friend plays old time fiddle and he tried to explain to a classical violinist that there is a note between a sharp and a natural, blew her fecking mind. And you should've seen when I tried to explain that the hornpipe didn't sound like the sheet music said it should.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by Aodh Rúadh
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Is there any chance that Trad Piper is pulling our chains completely??
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by Brown Creeper
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
You know, he's tried a lot of forums this year - soundsonsound, tribal living, guitar for beginners, current tv, dell, digital musician ... and is that him on Tom Coyote, talking about Microsoft Vista upgrades?
And, of course, he's just joined YouTube as a user, too. not many comments there, though - I think he's getting all the attention he clearly craves right here.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Of course you do realise that you can't play proper classical music unless you have waltzed with princes, danced with Prima Donnas, lived among the vistas of the alps, fought in battles against Napoleon, dined with Mozart, ridden with the Valkeyries etc. Just in case any of you had any pretentions towards achieving that illustrious aim....
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
and ... of course ... you can't play jazz unless you've done smack with Charlie Parker and are ... err ... black
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
The world does not revolve around you HTPD. Our humour does not make us ignorant.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Trad. I am not afraid. You're good, damn good.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
To whom are you writing HTPD aka Trad Piper? It often (and I mean often) looks to me like you are addressing fresh air. In fact, more disturbingly, it seems that here you are ranting against the title of this thread, one I note you fabricated yourself. It gets more like fight club by the hour.
However, I'm pleased to note you enjoy watching TV programmes such as The Pure Drop and have managed to find an album by the little known band Lunnessa. Also great to know you have the entire works of J. S. Bach right there.
These are the sort of things I look into this forum to find out.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by pavlf
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
HTPD mocking is nasty and I do not do it, it was never my intention to mock. You were saying you had to have slept under the moon of erin etc, in order to play the music (if I have understood correctly) I was making good humoured mischief in making my suggestions re the background required for classical music. I never thought of you as afflicted and I don't know where that comment came from.
I am not here to fight or to have malicious arguments with anyone. I am here to learn about Irish music and to have some fun. If my responses upset you then I will not respond to any more of your posts.
I leave you in peace,
Bowburner
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Oh, go on, bowburner, get stuck in!
Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
Go on ... you know you want to ...
Ah, go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on GO ON!!!
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
He seems pathetically hungry for attention, avidly lapping abuse like a dog returning to its vomit.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by fidkid
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
HTPD I think we are both trying to understand each other but we keep missing somehow. I'll try to explain my point, but if we miss again we may have to leave it until we have had chance to get to know and understand each other better.
I don't claim to be an expert in trad, I was classically trained to play classical music and the style is very prescribed/accurate you play what you are told to play, exactly as the dots say you should and there is very little opportunity for self expression (ok some classical musicians may debate this point, but the opportunities for self expression are perhaps less in classical than trad). Of course you can tell the difference between the playing style of violinists, but it is very subtle. A classical training, while being very good for teaching about good posture and technique, which as has been said before are good for preventing physical problems later, it does not encourage so much of the creative flow that trad does. One of the biggest challenges for me in moving to trad was stepping out of the rigidity of classical music to playing without the dots and playing by ear, adding ornaments and just getting the general feel for the music. I am still learning this and I find this site very useful.
My point about the moon of erin/dancing with princes I suppose is that we have often had the discussion on this site of do you need to be irish to play irish music? The point that came out of that for me was that we don't expect classical students to have grown up surrounded by classical music, and yet they still seem able to do it beautifully. Perhaps it is part of our culture that naturally enables this, but I would think as time moves on and popular music increases it's hold, this is becoming less likely. It therefore suggests that if we can play classical music without the background, then surely we must be able to play Irish music without necessarily having the background?
My conclusion, at the moment, is that it is possible to become adept at whichever style you listen to most. You are what you play every day.
I hope that clears up where I am coming from. I am sure there are other classical musicians on this site who could explain the points further and who have their own experiences to share.
# Posted on August 22nd 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
You're right. I apologize.
# Posted on August 22nd 2007 by fidkid
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
One of the key rites of passage into the classical tradition, as far as I can see, involves rising out of the sea clad in a diaphanous garment in front of a camera.
As my image in these circumstances would bust the camera, I do not think I am cut out for a career in classical music.
# Posted on August 22nd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
HTPD I think we agree at last!
Phew! What's next?
# Posted on August 22nd 2007 by bowburner
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Cathycook writes: "To give just one example Paddy Glackin had some classical lessons and there is nothing wrong with his playing."
I gotta say that this is a clear example of a player who got a very little learning in Classical music and concluded that all tunes must fit into some major key or other. He does not listen with care to the old masters of Donegal fiddle. He cleans up Donegal music while claiming to preserve it. You will find none of the wild rhythms, none of the non-standard scale tunings, none of the fondness for dischord. There are still real traditional musicians around and many recordings of good stuff, he has no excuse!
I certainly don't think that Classical training will forever ruin a traditional player, though it happens a lot (look at the depressing state of some Scottish fiddling), but arrogance and bias in favour of Classical playing style will! As long as the player listens to the traditional style and Classical technique, rhythm and playing style are not allowed to trump the traditional sound, damage to the tradition ought to be avoided. I think that sparse and arrogant learning are the problem. I have played with continental fiddlers who have studied baroque and early music, and they were far more likely to see where their playing fell short of real traditional musicians. The reason is they are more widely educated, more open-minded, and have a better ear, and are not so convinced that their usual manner of playing is superior to the old masters of traditional music.
# Posted on August 26th 2007 by dsndfkjasf
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Dear Nine--
Thank you for pointing to this site. As a fiddler who
has never had the benefit of formal instruction, I look
constantly for serious tips on technique and equipment.
I really like what you had to say.
As far as the comments by those blockheaded scrapers--
well, you know the old saying--"No good deed goes unpunished".
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by hauke
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Personally, I hold the fiddle and bow in a fairly conventional classical way, and, like Yehudi Menuhin, without a shoulder-rest. My point is that some players who have absorbed some classical training end up playing Irish music as if it were light classical music, and I really don't like it, (and I don’t think that they preserve the traditional music, because their little learning in classical music has made them arrogant, they have sanitised Irish music, and their little training has made them not very good traditional players. Many of the greatest Scottish fiddlers could play some light classical music, but they did not impose this style on the traditional material. Alasdair Fraser says that the classicalization of Scottish music has ruined much of it, it’s robbed the tradition of its wildness and its energy. I’d prefer if this didn’t happen to Irish music. I didn’t say we should just mimic other players, it’s just that we should be careful not to end up with an insipid musical tradition.
Here's a link to Alasdair Fraser's interview, it's a good read:
http://www.fiddle.com/issues/spr96.html#alasdair
# Posted on August 27th 2007 by dsndfkjasf
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
"my reason in posting this link was to show how good technique can aid a player in performing"
"If you wish to perform music which is technically demanding then your posture and whole technique is very important. With this music, it simply isn't"
I'd like to get to a point where repeating my self was simpler
# Posted on August 28th 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Oh, if only ...
# Posted on August 29th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
off I go again, rag to a bull:
Good posture is relevant to performance.
Technique is relevant to music which is technically demanding.
# Posted on August 30th 2007 by ...
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Well, as far as I can tell some of the fiddle players with the so-called "worst" technique I've ever seen were also amongst the best I've ever heard.
I think their idea of "progress" would probably differ from yours.
# Posted on August 30th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Heh, for some weeks now this has been like watching a large snake swallowing a dead goat, only to heave it back up again partially digested.
Meanwhile, somewhere, tunes are being played and pints drained....
# Posted on August 31st 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
what was the point of reproducing that?
# Posted on August 31st 2007 by pavlf
Re: Fiddle playing, the advantage of the classical tradition.
Not really on topic, but DH and I recently joined in a "Family Fun Day - have a go and join an orchestra" charity thing. DH on fidlle - joined the violins and me on concertina played 1st (and only) oboe. Fun and all in a good cause, but talking to the younger musicians there I realised how lucky us folk musicians are. Wherever we are (well mostly) we can look out for and find people to play music with, we don't have to get a balanced orchestra together, assign parts, get scores etc. (Or count 17 bar rests, like oboes do!)
Even practising is fun, learning new tunes, getting to grips and dusting off rusty ones, etc. These classically trained kids really enjoyed palying in the orchestra, but how difficult it must be to go home and practise - working on a piece for a grade exam, making sure you can do the little twiddy bit after the 17 bar rest when it finally comes along, and only rarely hearing what the whole thing sounds like when it all comes together properly.
This may not apply to the top class professionals, but surely does for us lesser mortals - I'm sure us more moderately talented trad players have vastly more opportunities to play than similar levels in the classical style.
# Posted on August 31st 2007 by spindizzy