My name is Noah and I'm new to this website. I play soprano and alto sax, and am trying to learn some Irish tunes because I think they sound cool. How many do I have to know before I can join a session? I once went to one and tried to play along and I did ok I guess, but there seemed to be so many tunes and I couldn't tell when one started and another finished. I have learnt a few tunes but I can't do all that twiddly stuff because I can't pick up what's going on on cds. Can somebody please tell me how to do all the flash twiddly stuff?
Er...Noah, are you planning on playing the tunes on your saxophones? Because you should know that the instrument itself may limit the sessions that you will be enthusiastically received at -- the saxophone isn't a usual instrument for a session; partially because it's usually loud enough that it would easily overpower a whole phalanx of the more usual instruments.
I'm afraid I've no idea what to tell you about how to play Irish tunes on the saxophone. I think we've others (Dirk is one, I know) who play saxophone (jazz, rock, whatever) as well as more traditional Irish instruments, and perhaps they could help you with how to play things like rolls and such on the sax...
Hi Noah. Welcome to thesession.org. Zina's right, it's going to depend on the session and how people receive the instrument. On the other hand, how you'll be received will have partly to do with how well you play. If you can learn the tunes and the ornamentation (twiddly stuff as you call it) then have a go, but try not to overpower everyone else - remember how loud a sax can be. As Zina said, bear in mind that some people only like to hear a combination of traditional instruments. How many tunes do you know already?
The Gallowglass Ceili Band had a sax - they also had a fiddle with a megaphone stuck on - presumably to pump the fiddle up to sax decibel level - and they produced a rather unusual sound for a ceili band - but they weren't quite the same standard as the Kilfenora or the Thatch CB's. They were probably regarded as 'experimental music' in Ireland in the 50's.
Wouldn't it be hard to join in on a session key-wise? Aren't tenors in Bb or something equally incongruous? Also speed - unless you're John Coltrane, is it possible to maintain such speed as a regular sesh player on a big sax?
But essentially I agree with the above posts. Where are you based? Presumably not Galway City. What's the session scene like where you are? Are they Buddha-esque tolerant? If not, get yourself a flute or whistle in the first instance, rather than breenging in with a goddamn sax as a new player.
Sorry NT, but you're better hearing it here in cyberspace than in real life. That could be genuinely painfull - or even worse - and more likely - behind your back and you don't find out till much later.
Post Script - I wasn't going to reply to this one but thought a short sharp shock now would save much future suffering. Sorry, sorry,sorry.
The fiddle with the megaphone thing -- isn't that like the one that Julia Clifford used to play? There's a pic of her somewhere with her with it...I forget what the official name for the thing is, but there is one.
Noah, you could make a band with a highland piper, but it's not a good idea to play the sax in the session of traditional music, as said above. Instead, you can try the low whistle or uillean pipes.
Several weeks ago, I tried to learn the quite modern instrument, which is called "pianica" in my country. It's a portable keybord with a mouth piece. I was forced to play it in the kindergarten and didn't like it very much, but recently I found it sounds similar to the concertina. After struggling with it for a couple of hours I threw it away, but I think it can mix with other instruments nicely in the sessions of ITM. Is there any good modern instrument for the traditional sessions?
The sax was once a common instrument in ceili bands, but since the arrival of high owered PA systems on the scene, the volume they produce became redundant. However, (and there's allways a however in diddley music) there have been several attempts to revive the instrument as a staple part of the "sound". There's an album (or two) by a band called "At the racket" which are well worth a listen, and certainly leave no doubt about the siutability of the Sax as an ITM instrument. I think there are allways people who will have a problem with non-standard instruments, which they percieve as being "at odds" with the tradition. But if trad can't evolve out of the staid old camp which preaches fiddle-flute-pipes ad nauseam, we will be playing fossil music before very long. [ End of Sermon ]. The twiddley bits you refer to are achievable on the sax, but I'm not expert enough to explain how! I suggest as a starting point, that you search previous threads for technical explainations on the execution of triplets, slurs. double stops etc. for fiddle and other instruments and figure the mechanics out yourself. Best of luck Frank
Ps There's a pub in my area "Delaney's of the Slate Quarries" where one of those fidles with the horn is dusted down and played regularly. Please let us have less rules, and more fun!
There's a big difference between a ceili band sound and that of a session. The ceili band usually has a drum kit and sometimes a base and those are rarely seen in sessions.
Perhaps we need to broaden our vision a little here. Most modern ceili bands have a drummer with a side drum, kick drum, and some percussion effects ( hardly a kit! ) and I've never seen a Bass in a ceili band, but I've seen both drum kits and Bass at sessions. Be brave Donal and open up to a bit of change.
It's not so much me being brave or otherwise, or sticking to rules. Among other things I play Boehm flute and D/G box, hardly de rigeur session tools.
I was just restating some advice initially posted by other people.
I suppose what Noah has to do is take the sax along and ask the honest opinion of the leading players whether it would be ok to play it, then take it from there.
Good luck!
Zina, I think Julia's machine is called 'a one string fiddle'! My dad had one although he never played it!!
Once upon a time, the fiddle was new to the music, once upon a time the bazouki was a Greek instrument called 'a bazouki' I believe! Once upon a time there were NO guitars or accordians or melodians in the music. Once upon a time there was NO MUSIC. So, as long as the sax is played in the next room (or county) why not be more relaxed about it?
Sorry about that, Noah. I love the sound the sax makes.
Seriously, when I was first learning on the fiddle and flute, I used to get rid of all the twiddly bits and just play the tune until I got it in my head. Then I'd record myself (excruitiating but I found it useful) or I'd listen to a CD, but as you say need a way to slow it down so you can hear HOW it's being done.
At some point, I found my own twiddly bits appeared and as my confidence and understanding grew, my playing developed all kinds of interesting and sometimes not so interesting twiddles.
I still create a basic tune from the twiddly one to this day so I can hear it's bare bones as it were.
Listen, Danny's got the right idea there, and I'm always glad to see it when someone is brave enough to say something rather unpalatable, even if I don't agree (which in this case, I do) and argue the point vociferously. Frank, it's all very well to try something different in the name of "let's have less rules", but unless Noah's session(s) is actually a ceili band in disguise, he's definitely going to get a major crusty if he shows up at a session as a beginner with a "non-traditional" instrument that's so loud it'll drown out most sessions single-handedly -- I recently discovered that one tambourine can easily overpower two fiddles, an uillleann piper, a mandolin player and two bodhrans, and no, we weren't very welcoming once it was clear that even knowing her "instrument" was too loud for us to hear each other, the eejit kept playing it "to have less rules and more fun". (I'm NOT saying *you'd* do this, Noah!) Having no rules is all very well and fine, but eventually what you end up with is anarchy. Somebody has to draw the line or the music suffers.
When I was small it was the coolest thing to try to copy the older fiddlers; hold my bow halfway up and play my fiddle with the chin rest in the crook of my elbow. ARGH! I sounded horrible!
The guys you might see doing that sound good because that's how they've learnt to play. It's perfectly fine to play with a "classical" hold. Many fiddlers do. Don't try to contort yourself; less pain, more music. Always good. =)
Hi, I think Julia Clifford's Fiddle was a Stroh Fiddle. And it definitely had more than one string, Susie.
If someone who really knew how to play Irish Music on a sax turned up at a session, I'm sure they would be welcome. It's not the volume thing, surely - what about piano accordions?
But a session surely isn't the place to learn how to play this sort of music on an unorthodox and loud instrument.
SL -Once upon a time there was no music? I find that hard to countenance. I refer you to the "pipe with six holes" recent string, where there's a link straight to James Galway's BBC radio programme, in which someone had unearthed a bone (as opposed to tin) whistle reckoned to be 40,000 years old. My feeling is as soon as humans had evolved the part of the brain dealing with musical sound, so co-evolved music. I guess half a million years, more maybe. If you mean prior to that we're not really talking about Homo sapiens sapiens.
I dug out my old Gallowglass CB album, and yes, there's a sax and the fiddle plus horn, played by Mrs. Margaret Keogh of Naas. No name given for it but it's referred to as "a quare yoke". The sax doesn't sound too out of place and "The Cook in the Kitchen" is in G as it should be.
But as for a session....well, you know what I think!
On the Stroh: http://www.digitalviolin.com/StrohViolin2.html, but that's not quite the instrument I think I remember seeing a pic of Julia with, I think the horn was bigger...oh, WHERE did I see that?
There IS a mention somewhere of a one string sort of violin with a horn attached to make it louder, but that's not Julia's instrument...
Zina, your'e right of course, but I dread to think of anybody going away from this discussion with the impression that they have to comply with a whole raft of rules and regulations before they dare set foot in a session. And you hit the nail on the head when you sugested there could be confrontational issues with loud instruments in the hands of unreasonable people, indeed I've witnessed my fair share of them. I can visualise our fiddle player tearing clumps of hair out of his bow with his teeth, and knocking over drinks in his haste to escape the torment of the proverbial loud melodeon player.
But where are we to get the next Bothy Band from if we dont push the limits a bit. Even bands like Kila have a part to play in getting youngsters involved ( I cant believe I said that !) So go on Noah, try it with a mute sometime,and see how you fare out, and if you're a sensitive person, which I suspect you are or you wouldn't have asked in the first place, you will learn from your first endeavours whether it's going to work or not. Go away and lick your wounds then and try again. As you can see from the few who have contributed here, there are people who will be prepared to listen with an open mind, and after all thats where everyone starts, whether its a whistle or a basoon they are playing.
Frank
There's a picture of Julia with what's described as a Stroh fiddle in the book 'Johnny Leary of Sliabh Luachra. Was.nt the one stringed fiddle with the megaphone a novelty Jazz instrument from the twenties - the sort of thing that might have been played more recently in the Bonzo Dog Band? I don't know why I think that, but it sort of popped into my head...
Thanks for your input everyone! Thanks to you guys I've thought of a solution to my problem. I'll take up the Irish drum. That way I can take both my sax and drum to sessions and if people don't like the sax then I can just play my drum. I tried to think of a harmless instrument that would be accepted anywhere and one which is also very portable. One of those drums would be just perfect. Unfortunately I don't know where to buy one (I'm in Montana). Does anyone know where I can buy a cheap one?
Hello, Noah, the name is bodhran (pronounced bow (as in bow down) ran). The thought of the bodhran as a "harmless instrument that would be accepted anywhere" will bring chuckles to most people who play in traditional Irish sessions. That's to show that there is a lot of tradition in this music (even though sessions as we know them have existed for only 50 years or so), and stuff that seems straightforward sometimes isn't. To make things worse, people have strong opinions are don't hesitate to shout them to you.
Learn a few tunes, start going to a session, learn more tunes, etc. Once you get a hang of it, you will be in good shape to transfer it to the saxophone, and become rich and famous.
Good luck, and whenever you have a problem, we're here to try to help you.
This is either a total wind-up or Noah, you need to get yourself over to Helena to Will's session. Noah, what Glauber is talking about is that some people define the bodhran as "the drum everyone wants to learn and no one wants to hear." (It's a joke, but for some people it's actually true -- not me, I happen to like the bodhran.)
Yes, i think that may be where I saw that pic, Susie-Lee! thanks, it was going to drive me mad otherwise. Heh.
Noah, come August, a bunch of us from The Session are gathering in first Butte and then Helena. C'mon out and play!
For the more broad-minded among you, there are pictures of a Stroh fiddle - and several other instruments you many or may not want to turn up in your session - at:
If I may chime in so late, I read the whole discussion waiting to see the bit of advice that glauber gave. I play flute and whistle, and remembering back to my school days, I could "play" my friend's sax with just my knowledge of flute fingerings. After all, they're all just "tubes with holes," right? So my advice would echo glauber - get a $6 tinwhistle (clark sweetone is my choice) and learn some tunes. You can stick it in a small backpack and practice/play it anywhere you go. Then if you still want to give it a try, transfer the knowledge to the sax, and it won't be too far away. (Just beware the whistle addiction....).
Emm...At the risk of appearing even more childish than I usually am - I said it first!
Way back near the top of this (3rd post) I said "get yourself a flute or a whistle in the first instance"
There we go Glauber - at least we agree!
I've seen a tuba (no sh*t) at an English session, and the player was smelly and opinionated, so not the most popular of guys, but did he care?
Skin as thick as a Rhinoceros.
Please don't be like him, Noah. We're about to witness human misery on an unprecedented scale, wrt African famine. We don't need more.
Okay scrap the drum idea I'm going to go for the whistle. I've had a look at a few websites and they are not just metal tubes, some of them actually look cool with slidey bits. I'll take your advice Glauber and get a D whistle, although most of the tunes I play are in G or A minor. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to learn more tunes in D...
Tanya, you sound like a bubbly character who knows a lot of tunes. We should hook up sometime. Maybe we could get a band together! I like the experienced types
You all keep talking about learning to play a whistle. How long does it actually take one to learn to "play" a whistle? How does one go about learning?
Oh I'm so sorry Domhniaill Mac Aoidh, you certainly did have the advice first. And Noah, a D whistle also plays in the keys of G and Am. Keep learnin' them tunes. And how long does it take to learn to play the whistle? About 2 seconds. How long to play it well? Hmmm... anyone out there who's arrived yet? Colleen
Noah do you really play reels with the sax?
I'm a sax soprano player too, but I use the sax for breton music only, and sometime for irish slow air or slow jigs. For me is too hard to play a reel with the sax.
Sessioneers, at the risk of boring everybody to tears, I implore you all to try this link http://www.dervish.ie/racket.htm , It will charm you all into submission!
Noah, if you are going for a whistle, don't waste your money for an expansive one! I suggest a Feadog.( for me is the best ).
And don't forget to buy an Mary Bergin's album!!
Speaking of Sax and whistle. Does anyone have the old whistle tutor by Larry McCullough with the picture of him in the back. What a trip!! He's all decked out in his seventies garb, sunglasses, sideburns, bell-bottoms and cradling his alto sax.
Ahh, the good old days.
Perhaps a thread on sex and whistle. Oh, Dow's already been there
Noah sends out a dove, and it comes back with a beak full of thorns.
You couldn't resist could you, some one new comes to this site and the first thing he gets is a load of negative caveats about how acceptable he will be at sessions.
And if that’s not scared him off he gets the "rules".
I thought the aim of this site was to encourage people new to the music, not dump a pile of irrelevant moral guff on them.
Do you really believe that sessions are hieratical structures with the "lead" players at the top and every one else following along bellow. People who know more tunes will obviously tend to start more sets, but the idea that once every one joins in that person is somehow leading the music is nonsense (sessions don't need conductors). The best sessions I attend are not organised vertically but horizontally, allowing any one to start a set.
The hole essence of a session for me is the loss of individual Ego that occurs when a room of people become a super-instrument being played by the tune.
Perhaps some of the contributors here have not experienced this "social state collapse". I hope that's not true because it's a wonderful life affirming process that is at the heart of human cultural evolution.
End of rant.
Please try to be a bit more positive to new people visiting this site so that when were in our dotage, younger folks will still be celebrating life in this wonderful way and allowing us to start a few tunes.
Just for the record, Noah's query--which is either a very effective wind up or a serious threat to homeland security in the US hinterland--has me sweating bullets in worry over the day he walks into our Montana session and pulls up a chair!
LOL Frank, it's easy for you to encourage Noah at your distance from Montana! But those of us in Helena will know Noah by his sax case, and he will know us by how quickly the room empties. Which is what happened when--no lie--someone once came to a session here (in Missoula, actually) intent on playing his rocks. That's not a typo. This guy had picked up two cobblestones from the Clark Fork River and claimed they were "finely tuned" (which is more than we could say about him). He proceeded to bang them against each other in no discernible rhythm--kinda like "uber" bones played by a manic chimp. He became very irate when the session leader asked--no, *told*--him to stop, and he left in his own cloud of profanities.
Please, I know that "rhythm stones" *are* a trad instrument, predating the bone whistle no doubt. But I don't want to read any posts in defense of their use at sessions!
(So now it occurs to me that I just wasted a perfectly good story in this discussion thread, when it might've won me an Amazon gift certificate if I'd posted it under The Scholar, the tune we were attempting to play despite the rocks. Sigh.)
I hate to appear close minded, and I run a very welcoming, open session, but here in the States we get all sorts of instruments and attitudes walking in the door, and if we didn't have some boundaries, we'd end up playing O-TKBA-PPCOHBSAWALBOITM--"Old-Timey Klezmer Bluegrass Afro-Pop Punk Cajun Outer Hebrides Breton Ska Australopithecus with a little bit of Irish Traditional Music"--every week. Is it too much to ask to set aside one night a week for a bit of the pure drop?
Will
(Somewhere in Montana, hotbed of O-TKBA-PPCOHBSAWALBOIT Music)
Pied, I think your rant is misplaced. Take a look at my post on Noah's thread for one reason some of us would prefer not to have a sax (or cobble stones) player with little to no experience on the jigs and reels sitting in at our sessions.
I agree wholeheartedly with you that individual ego disappears at good sessions. But that doesn't happen when the music is complete sh*te, as it usually is when someone on a loud instrument and no knowledge of the music insists on playing in. The worst example of this I've ever heard of is when a guy brought a car horn wired to a battery to a session, expecting to play rhythm. Myself, I prefer to play in sessions, not traffic jams.
I think Noah was winding us up. If not, he's better off knowing that some (many) session players won't welcome his sax, at the very least until he woodsheds at home and learns the tunes first, and even then some session players would sooner pack up and leave than sit in with a sax. Whether you like it or not, that's part of how the session world operates. He asked, and people here gave him honest answers. I see nothing wrong with that.
I don't know, PP. As a neutral who took no part in that thread but who read it, I had a very different impression of things. It's not a question of 'not being able to resist', simply that sometimes newcomers are through no fault of their own unfamiliar with the nebulous concepts of session etiquette and people are understandably motivated to prevent that person putting their foot in it. For a room full of people to achieve the desired state of social collapse though, they do have to start from a position of agreement. I didn't detect any nastiness in the advice given to Noah, just attempts to warn him about the 'realpolitik' of many sessions. Love the Noah/beak analogy by the way!
Will, your post had me laughing out loud! The mental image of an actual chimp banging away on rocks!! Maybe you can still tell your story under the tunes area for the competition...
Andee, that's the thing about the odd "non-traditional" instrument showing up at a session now and then: might be highly annoying at the time, but destined to a long life told and retold to brighten someone's day a little.
Some of my session mates recently gave me an Amazon gift certificate, so I'll abstain from the competition and enjoy everyone else's entries....
Just to tell that I heard that the sax had been quite used in Irish music at the beg. of the 20th century. Yet, I would not know how to include it a session... (but I don't play sax).
Otherwise, Tenor sax is quite used in Breton music, as well as clarinet (The fest noz band "Diwall" is quite a good reference of this...).
Will, the Scholar is one of those tunes that invites hostility, with or without rocks. I think you should post your story there too, get this contest thing started! I look forward to the day when whenever we check the tunes section, all of the discussions there have the same title ("True Story").
Pied, i'm very proud of myself, that at least this time i took the high road, gave the guy the benefit-of-the-doubt and wasted about half an hour looking for whistle references to get him started. But i'm 99.99% convinced that that thread is a hoax, or, as we old timers used to say, a troll. Still, i didn't unload any sarcasm on the guy; there's about 0.01% of a chance that he's for real.
The thing about the bodhran being a nice harmless instrument might have been true cluelessness (if they guy has just come down from Mars), but the part about most of his tunes being in Gm or Am is not. I wonder what he's going to ask next, probably about the tunes from Titanic or My Heart Will Go On. Or maybe about slow airs. Keep tuned!
For the record, i have nothing against sax, sex or rocks in a session (when done well).
Two totally different tunes: The (Poor) Scholar, a reel, is one of the few tunes I can play fast on the box. The Acrobat is a rare, but fantastic, but for me unplayable hornpipe, I've heard only on the Heritage album Tell Tae Me. Unless there's another by the same name.
The session here used to have a little man who would appear with a metal washboard thing which he wore, like a bib! - no kidding. He looked like the metal man from The Wizard of Oz. It would have been hilarious, but he was able to drown out even several boxes and banjos.
He didn't last.
I also had a quick listen to the samples on that link. Quite interesting, and unusual. I don't know how many times I could listen to it, though, and I don't think it would grow on me; and in any case a totally different scenario to that of Noah's.
I was just skimming through this post and think that starting on the whistle is good advice. Our local session is pretty friendly and tolerant, but a sax would not go over very well. I'm sure someone would politely ask not to play it.
Good luck with the whistle Noah. If you really enjoy it, you might want to consider Irish wooden flute. I'm mad about my flute and would play all day if I could : ) A buddy of mine said that even when a flute player makes mistakes (I make a lot!!), it still sounds pretty....
The harp is yer instrument for that, Joyce! Can't make too many truly awful mistakes on a harp, even the irredeemable mistakes sound nice.
Will, I only wish I could have been there for the rock incident. Whole new meaning for getting one's rocks off...and Danny, I've noted that whenever something could have been hilarious, it inevitably *isn't* -- until afterwards. Then it makes a great story for ages and ages and ages. Will, I too think yours belongs under the heading of True Story in the sessions section...
There are also a fair number of good whistle and wooden flute players in Montana, many of them willing to teach.
Come to think of it, I'm glad to meet Noah online here, since we're Montana "neighbors." Last weekend we got 32 inches of snow in 24 hours and now it's in the 50s F., so his ark should come in handy.
Seriously, Noah, send me an email (click on my name after this post and then click on "send an email") and tell me where in MT you live. Chances are I know a local--from Libby to Red Lodge, the Bitterroot Valley to Butte, and everywhere in between--who can help you become constructively obsessed with jigs and reels. There are active sessions in Hamilton, Butte, Helena, and Bozeman, with more sporadic sessions in Kalispell, Polson, and the Billings/Red Lodge area, and some knowledgeable musicians in Missoula, so unless you live in Ekalaka or Scobey, we've about got you covered.
Okay, I'll post it there, but only to break the ice. Mind you, if no more than two more stories get posted, I'm guaranteed a prize. So don't leave me hanging...I'd hate to take first place in a field of one....
Aha! Now I know who Will is. Will I'm sure I've heard of you before somewhere...
Thanks for the advice everyone. I'd love to try and make it to some of the sessions here, but I think I'll leave it for the moment. I have to learn how to play the whistle first! I won't bring my ark with me because I don't have a case for it
Don't worry I didn't take offense - I can see now that the sax is inappropriate. I do think the bowran is pretty goddamn cool though. I think I might buy one anyway and play it at home...
And yes Glauber I am totally clueless when it comes to Irish music I'm afraid, but I do know a bit about keys from playing jazz. When I said that most of my tunes were in G or Am, I simply meant that of the like 10 tunes I play (!), most are in those keys because I liked the tunes and the way they sound (the Tenpenny Bit for example is one of my favorites). However on the sax they end up not being in that key.
Feel free to pick up the bodhran, and even to bring it to Will's session. *smirk* I personally really like having a good bodhran player sitting in the circle. But do remember that the best bodhran players do say that you should still learn the tunes to be able to play with them well, even on a bodhran.
It may be a small world, but my memory is like the Big Sky--windblown and empty. I can't even place the band name, other than the jig. It's possible we met at the all-day session in Montana two Februaries ago--so many new faces, I can't put names to them all. Or the post-Solas house session in Missoula last year? I'm in Helena...where are you, Tanya?
I must say that reading thru Noah's earlier thread, there were a few times I cringed at the 'elitist' attitude that seemed to underlie the comments. After all, the best session I've ever been in was in the bistro of a pub at Port Fairt folk fest where half the bloody room got hold of dessert spoons, salt & pepper shakers or anything else that would make noise, and all joined in. We also tolerated a drunken canary who wanted to do an Elvis number. (we quietly waited till he finished, and then started belting out tunes again). The crowd loved it. So did the publican.
Also, the music that 'hooked' me into ITM was listening to the album "the Storm" by Moving Hearts which had several tracks with great sax playing. I also checked out the link someone posted in Noah's stream to the Dervish site which refers to "one of Irelands most exciting new trad bands", and yes, it includes a sax.
My understanding is that some "sessions" are more formal than others. Which reminds me......
Gerry, yeah, we've all had fun with those impromptu free-for-alls that sometimes happen at sessions. At last week's Tuesday night session here, in honor of Fat Tuesday, we had some cajun tunes (with *two* triangles played!) and a cajun song, sung in whatever dialect of French that is. And it was great fun. But for me, that works best if it's the occasional exception and not the rule. I do play other genre's of music, and other non-trad instruments, but I mostly save them for other evenings.
Plus the red flag in Noah's query was that he really doesn't know the tunes yet. Get him woodshedding to learn a bunch of tunes and work out a viable style on the sax, and yeah, I'd play with him. But I'd rather not go through his learning process at our local session, any more than I would expect people to put up with me learning fiddle in public. (That was painful enough in private, thank you
Years ago, I played a couple of gigs with a clarinet player who made it sound like the most natural Irish trad instrument in the world, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Even learned some tunes from him. But he didn't get there by honking away in sessions, ad libbing to the tunes. He learned to play them well, at home, first, and then people were happy to have him sit in. Also, our current session enjoys the company of a piper who uses an electric chanter and an amp. Almost anything goes--if the player knows the music and doesn't hog the acoustics.
Frankly, when I re-read the thread Noah started, I'm surprised at how much effort people put into not being overly discouraging. Like it or not, real-world sessions are not always so diplomatic or gentle with players' feelings, and people were right to point that out.
Well, Noah, if you are still around I actually started out on saxophone some 10 or so years ago and it is very easy to switch from saxophone to tin whistle in fact I got a head start in that I just had to pick up the songs and if you have played sax long enough you can pick up the tunes too. Like everyone says around here, Listen Listen Listen!! Thats the only way you will learn. I actually listen to a cd of Planxty or the Bothy Band before I go to sleep at night and it puts me right to sleep, plus I learn songs that way very easily. Enough rambling
I say pick up the tin whistle, I've played it for a good year or so. A "d" whistle reads music exactly the same that a saxophone does, except what you think an f natural is is really and f sharp and there is no octave key. I actually wanted to learn the whistle properly so I lift my index finger on the d above middle c which is quite common and makes it easier when you get a low whistle. Notice I said when, because once you pick up a whistle you will develop WHOA (for interpretation see chiffandfipple.com) and you will have to have every whistle in every key from every maker. I am picking up Irish flute now too, and thats easily acceptable as well. In general, I see pick up whistle it will be more fulfilling than a guy beating a drum and constantly speeding up the tempo, which bodhran players always do. And, its a waste to be so close to already having an instrument practically learned and not pick it up. Get a Meg or a Sweetone by Clarke, I still play mine consistently and from there get a Dixon with the brass tuning slide. There's more than my $.02 worth there, any question email me.
Also - Pied - I really dont see how anyone thorned anyone in that other post, I know the usual offenders really well (hahahaha) and they all held back very well I think. It couldve been alot worse than that. In fact I thought it was all quite friendly and chatty and helpful.
The reason we don't see Will and Noah in the same room is because they're exact opposites in parallel universes. Just like we have the notion of "anti-Christ", we've got an "Antee Harmon" (of which Noah Treeman is an anagram). Are they one and the same? I think we should be told...
Horizontal sessions are fine as long as you, personally can start a set at 8pm, and another, and another and another. Then come back next week, remembering which sets you played last week, and start three or four more, without repetition. (To give you a chance, three or four times through each tune may be allowed, but only for this thread).
If you cannot, stick to vertical sessions.
It's some kind of physics rule, or maybe I mean quantum, that the fluter's spit will land somewhere that will gross everyone out. I'm just glad that the trombone is not a normal feature of the session -- I used to sit in front of the trombones in high school orchestra, and there's nothing like accidentally putting a sandalled foot into a pool of greenish trombone spit...
Maybe if we got the Sax player to sit on the right hand side of the flute; if the horn does'nt catch it, his bodhran action will cause it to vapourise harmsessly.
I don't know what kind of flutists you guys have in your sessions, but for the record, i don't drool into my flute. Unless, of course, when Zina shows up in one of her black leather outfits.
Um, are you calling Montana a parallel universe? Then there's hope for us yet--if we can find the matching "good" set of politicians and replace the ones we're suffering under now....
Tanya, click on http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1254
for the thread here about our August rendezvous in Helena. Somewhere in that thread you'll also find the link to our yahoo site with a little more info and a sign up page for anyone who plans on attending. The bottom line is that Lunasa will be in Butte on August 8-9, and we may get Solas in Helena on August 11, and a bunch of thesession.org members are showing up to play together around the same time.
By the way Tanya, I thought you said you lived in Montana (? stone's throw alright). If you're in Sydney you should meet up with the Aussie contingent from thesession!
Hmm. Actually, by the rules of physics, if Harmon and Antee-Harmon meet up, it would mean the total annihilation of EVERYthing, by chain reaction, wouldn't it?
you guys are bloody hilarious!!! I am definatly not tanya and I'm pretty sure she's not me! Hi tanya - I'm bridie - dont be listening to them girl - they are trying to mess with your head This Will/Noah thing is a bit freaky - Conan - you are obviously a very, very smart boy -why is it you play the piano accordian again??? Ouch!!! just kidding as I'm sure you know
I think he plays the piano accordion because he couldn't find a saxophone when he started learning.
Noah, by the way, could combine his love of the saxophone and the bodhran, and become a specialist on the didgeridhran. I wish i could find that Web site again... does someone still have the link?
Hey Tanya come and visit us. You're welcome to stay at bb's free of charge for however long you want and she'll feed you and take you out to all the sessions!
Danny your Scottish accent really came across in your last post. [Ducks to avoid being hit]
Sorry, I forgot about the anagram thing! Danny reminded me today. I'm a bit frightened of all this talk of annihilation. I mean, everything might be destroyed???? At least leave me my Tommy Peoples CDs!
Okay, I'm a writer by trade, and anal retentive to boot, so *if* I were going to anagram "Anti-Harmon" my screen name would've been the more Irish-sounding Martin O'Han.
Noah actually emailed me (he lives about 120 miles from Helena), so I *know* he's not me (my life is complicated enough without running two screen personalities *and* commuting 240 miles a day .
OK lads - I reckon the party's over here. Fun while it lasted but it's getting to be at 2 people's expense. Thanks to Noah and Will for taking the jibes with good humour. I for one am calling it a day here. See youse on the other threads.
please help
please help
My name is Noah and I'm new to this website. I play soprano and alto sax, and am trying to learn some Irish tunes because I think they sound cool. How many do I have to know before I can join a session? I once went to one and tried to play along and I did ok I guess, but there seemed to be so many tunes and I couldn't tell when one started and another finished. I have learnt a few tunes but I can't do all that twiddly stuff because I can't pick up what's going on on cds. Can somebody please tell me how to do all the flash twiddly stuff?
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Noah Treeman
Re: please help
Er...Noah, are you planning on playing the tunes on your saxophones? Because you should know that the instrument itself may limit the sessions that you will be enthusiastically received at -- the saxophone isn't a usual instrument for a session; partially because it's usually loud enough that it would easily overpower a whole phalanx of the more usual instruments.
I'm afraid I've no idea what to tell you about how to play Irish tunes on the saxophone. I think we've others (Dirk is one, I know) who play saxophone (jazz, rock, whatever) as well as more traditional Irish instruments, and perhaps they could help you with how to play things like rolls and such on the sax...
Zina
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
Hi Noah. Welcome to thesession.org. Zina's right, it's going to depend on the session and how people receive the instrument. On the other hand, how you'll be received will have partly to do with how well you play. If you can learn the tunes and the ornamentation (twiddly stuff as you call it) then have a go, but try not to overpower everyone else - remember how loud a sax can be. As Zina said, bear in mind that some people only like to hear a combination of traditional instruments. How many tunes do you know already?
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Dow
Re: please help
The Gallowglass Ceili Band had a sax - they also had a fiddle with a megaphone stuck on - presumably to pump the fiddle up to sax decibel level - and they produced a rather unusual sound for a ceili band - but they weren't quite the same standard as the Kilfenora or the Thatch CB's. They were probably regarded as 'experimental music' in Ireland in the 50's.
Wouldn't it be hard to join in on a session key-wise? Aren't tenors in Bb or something equally incongruous? Also speed - unless you're John Coltrane, is it possible to maintain such speed as a regular sesh player on a big sax?
But essentially I agree with the above posts. Where are you based? Presumably not Galway City. What's the session scene like where you are? Are they Buddha-esque tolerant? If not, get yourself a flute or whistle in the first instance, rather than breenging in with a goddamn sax as a new player.
Sorry NT, but you're better hearing it here in cyberspace than in real life. That could be genuinely painfull - or even worse - and more likely - behind your back and you don't find out till much later.
Post Script - I wasn't going to reply to this one but thought a short sharp shock now would save much future suffering. Sorry, sorry,sorry.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
The fiddle with the megaphone thing -- isn't that like the one that Julia Clifford used to play? There's a pic of her somewhere with her with it...I forget what the official name for the thing is, but there is one.
zls
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
Noah, you could make a band with a highland piper, but it's not a good idea to play the sax in the session of traditional music, as said above. Instead, you can try the low whistle or uillean pipes.
Several weeks ago, I tried to learn the quite modern instrument, which is called "pianica" in my country. It's a portable keybord with a mouth piece. I was forced to play it in the kindergarten and didn't like it very much, but recently I found it sounds similar to the concertina. After struggling with it for a couple of hours I threw it away, but I think it can mix with other instruments nicely in the sessions of ITM. Is there any good modern instrument for the traditional sessions?
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by slainte
Re: please help
The sax was once a common instrument in ceili bands, but since the arrival of high owered PA systems on the scene, the volume they produce became redundant. However, (and there's allways a however in diddley music) there have been several attempts to revive the instrument as a staple part of the "sound". There's an album (or two) by a band called "At the racket" which are well worth a listen, and certainly leave no doubt about the siutability of the Sax as an ITM instrument. I think there are allways people who will have a problem with non-standard instruments, which they percieve as being "at odds" with the tradition. But if trad can't evolve out of the staid old camp which preaches fiddle-flute-pipes ad nauseam, we will be playing fossil music before very long. [ End of Sermon ]. The twiddley bits you refer to are achievable on the sax, but I'm not expert enough to explain how! I suggest as a starting point, that you search previous threads for technical explainations on the execution of triplets, slurs. double stops etc. for fiddle and other instruments and figure the mechanics out yourself. Best of luck Frank
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Backer
Ps There's a pub in my area "Delaney's of the Slate Quarries" where one of those fidles with the horn is dusted down and played regularly. Please let us have less rules, and more fun!
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Backer
Re: please help
There's a big difference between a ceili band sound and that of a session. The ceili band usually has a drum kit and sometimes a base and those are rarely seen in sessions.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
Perhaps we need to broaden our vision a little here. Most modern ceili bands have a drummer with a side drum, kick drum, and some percussion effects ( hardly a kit! ) and I've never seen a Bass in a ceili band, but I've seen both drum kits and Bass at sessions. Be brave Donal and open up to a bit of change.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Backer
Re: please help
It's not so much me being brave or otherwise, or sticking to rules. Among other things I play Boehm flute and D/G box, hardly de rigeur session tools.
I was just restating some advice initially posted by other people.
I suppose what Noah has to do is take the sax along and ask the honest opinion of the leading players whether it would be ok to play it, then take it from there.
Good luck!
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
Zina, I think Julia's machine is called 'a one string fiddle'! My dad had one although he never played it!!
Once upon a time, the fiddle was new to the music, once upon a time the bazouki was a Greek instrument called 'a bazouki' I believe! Once upon a time there were NO guitars or accordians or melodians in the music. Once upon a time there was NO MUSIC. So, as long as the sax is played in the next room (or county) why not be more relaxed about it?
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Susie-Lee
Re: please help
Sorry about that, Noah. I love the sound the sax makes.
Seriously, when I was first learning on the fiddle and flute, I used to get rid of all the twiddly bits and just play the tune until I got it in my head. Then I'd record myself (excruitiating but I found it useful) or I'd listen to a CD, but as you say need a way to slow it down so you can hear HOW it's being done.
At some point, I found my own twiddly bits appeared and as my confidence and understanding grew, my playing developed all kinds of interesting and sometimes not so interesting twiddles.
I still create a basic tune from the twiddly one to this day so I can hear it's bare bones as it were.
Any help? Anyway have fun!
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Susie-Lee
Here we go again
Listen, Danny's got the right idea there, and I'm always glad to see it when someone is brave enough to say something rather unpalatable, even if I don't agree (which in this case, I do) and argue the point vociferously. Frank, it's all very well to try something different in the name of "let's have less rules", but unless Noah's session(s) is actually a ceili band in disguise, he's definitely going to get a major crusty if he shows up at a session as a beginner with a "non-traditional" instrument that's so loud it'll drown out most sessions single-handedly -- I recently discovered that one tambourine can easily overpower two fiddles, an uillleann piper, a mandolin player and two bodhrans, and no, we weren't very welcoming once it was clear that even knowing her "instrument" was too loud for us to hear each other, the eejit kept playing it "to have less rules and more fun". (I'm NOT saying *you'd* do this, Noah!) Having no rules is all very well and fine, but eventually what you end up with is anarchy. Somebody has to draw the line or the music suffers.
Zina
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
When I was small it was the coolest thing to try to copy the older fiddlers; hold my bow halfway up and play my fiddle with the chin rest in the crook of my elbow. ARGH! I sounded horrible!
The guys you might see doing that sound good because that's how they've learnt to play. It's perfectly fine to play with a "classical" hold. Many fiddlers do. Don't try to contort yourself; less pain, more music. Always good. =)
~Cait
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Caitriona
Re: please help
Hi, I think Julia Clifford's Fiddle was a Stroh Fiddle. And it definitely had more than one string, Susie.
If someone who really knew how to play Irish Music on a sax turned up at a session, I'm sure they would be welcome. It's not the volume thing, surely - what about piano accordions?
But a session surely isn't the place to learn how to play this sort of music on an unorthodox and loud instrument.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Ottery
Re: please help
SL -Once upon a time there was no music? I find that hard to countenance. I refer you to the "pipe with six holes" recent string, where there's a link straight to James Galway's BBC radio programme, in which someone had unearthed a bone (as opposed to tin) whistle reckoned to be 40,000 years old. My feeling is as soon as humans had evolved the part of the brain dealing with musical sound, so co-evolved music. I guess half a million years, more maybe. If you mean prior to that we're not really talking about Homo sapiens sapiens.
I dug out my old Gallowglass CB album, and yes, there's a sax and the fiddle plus horn, played by Mrs. Margaret Keogh of Naas. No name given for it but it's referred to as "a quare yoke". The sax doesn't sound too out of place and "The Cook in the Kitchen" is in G as it should be.
But as for a session....well, you know what I think!
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
On the Stroh: http://www.digitalviolin.com/StrohViolin2.html, but that's not quite the instrument I think I remember seeing a pic of Julia with, I think the horn was bigger...oh, WHERE did I see that?
There IS a mention somewhere of a one string sort of violin with a horn attached to make it louder, but that's not Julia's instrument...
zls
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
Zina, your'e right of course, but I dread to think of anybody going away from this discussion with the impression that they have to comply with a whole raft of rules and regulations before they dare set foot in a session. And you hit the nail on the head when you sugested there could be confrontational issues with loud instruments in the hands of unreasonable people, indeed I've witnessed my fair share of them. I can visualise our fiddle player tearing clumps of hair out of his bow with his teeth, and knocking over drinks in his haste to escape the torment of the proverbial loud melodeon player.
But where are we to get the next Bothy Band from if we dont push the limits a bit. Even bands like Kila have a part to play in getting youngsters involved ( I cant believe I said that !) So go on Noah, try it with a mute sometime,and see how you fare out, and if you're a sensitive person, which I suspect you are or you wouldn't have asked in the first place, you will learn from your first endeavours whether it's going to work or not. Go away and lick your wounds then and try again. As you can see from the few who have contributed here, there are people who will be prepared to listen with an open mind, and after all thats where everyone starts, whether its a whistle or a basoon they are playing.
Frank
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Backer
Re: please help
Sorry for previous comment. Got myself lost in the wonder that is thesession. Don't ask me how! So posted to the wrong discussion. Oops.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Caitriona
Re: please help
Zina,
There's a picture of Julia in Matt Crannith's Fiddle tutor! I just remembered...I think.
If we could post pics I could scan it in but it'd probable offend copyright.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Susie-Lee
Re: please help
There's a picture of Julia with what's described as a Stroh fiddle in the book 'Johnny Leary of Sliabh Luachra. Was.nt the one stringed fiddle with the megaphone a novelty Jazz instrument from the twenties - the sort of thing that might have been played more recently in the Bonzo Dog Band? I don't know why I think that, but it sort of popped into my head...
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Ottery
Re: please help
I just found Matt Cranitch's tutor, and on page 106 is pic of Julia playing a 'Stroh' fiddle also known as the 'Phono'.
Help?
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Susie-Lee
Re: please help
Thanks for your input everyone! Thanks to you guys I've thought of a solution to my problem. I'll take up the Irish drum. That way I can take both my sax and drum to sessions and if people don't like the sax then I can just play my drum. I tried to think of a harmless instrument that would be accepted anywhere and one which is also very portable. One of those drums would be just perfect. Unfortunately I don't know where to buy one (I'm in Montana). Does anyone know where I can buy a cheap one?
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Noah Treeman
Re: please help
Hello, Noah, the name is bodhran (pronounced bow (as in bow down) ran). The thought of the bodhran as a "harmless instrument that would be accepted anywhere" will bring chuckles to most people who play in traditional Irish sessions. That's to show that there is a lot of tradition in this music (even though sessions as we know them have existed for only 50 years or so), and stuff that seems straightforward sometimes isn't. To make things worse, people have strong opinions are don't hesitate to shout them to you.
The best instrument for learning this stuff is the pennywhistle. Read through the evaluations of inexpensive whistles in http://www.chiffandfipple.com (http://www.chiffandfipple.com/inexp.html), make your pick, then go to http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/ to learn how to play it.
Learn a few tunes, start going to a session, learn more tunes, etc. Once you get a hang of it, you will be in good shape to transfer it to the saxophone, and become rich and famous.
Good luck, and whenever you have a problem, we're here to try to help you.
g
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by glauber
Whistle still
By the way, the whistle you need is a high-D (the small one, and in the key of D). Forget about low whistles and the other keys initially.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by glauber
And still
... and a good place to get them in the USA is http://www.thewhistleshop.com. There you are, now you know as much as i do about whistles. Good luck!
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by glauber
Re: please help
This is either a total wind-up or Noah, you need to get yourself over to Helena to Will's session.
Noah, what Glauber is talking about is that some people define the bodhran as "the drum everyone wants to learn and no one wants to hear." (It's a joke, but for some people it's actually true -- not me, I happen to like the bodhran.)
Yes, i think that may be where I saw that pic, Susie-Lee! thanks, it was going to drive me mad otherwise. Heh.
Noah, come August, a bunch of us from The Session are gathering in first Butte and then Helena. C'mon out and play!
zls
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
Hmm... Maybe Noah *is* Will.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by glauber
Stroh fiddles etc.
For the more broad-minded among you, there are pictures of a Stroh fiddle - and several other instruments you many or may not want to turn up in your session - at:
http://www.polygraphlounge.com/instruments.html
P.S. I've had a go on a Stroh fiddle, and they're not bad at all - would come in very handy at some sessions I could name.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Orson Carte
Re: please help
If I may chime in so late, I read the whole discussion waiting to see the bit of advice that glauber gave. I play flute and whistle, and remembering back to my school days, I could "play" my friend's sax with just my knowledge of flute fingerings. After all, they're all just "tubes with holes," right? So my advice would echo glauber - get a $6 tinwhistle (clark sweetone is my choice) and learn some tunes. You can stick it in a small backpack and practice/play it anywhere you go. Then if you still want to give it a try, transfer the knowledge to the sax, and it won't be too far away. (Just beware the whistle addiction....).
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by cdavick
Re: please help
Emm...At the risk of appearing even more childish than I usually am - I said it first!
Way back near the top of this (3rd post) I said "get yourself a flute or a whistle in the first instance"
There we go Glauber - at least we agree!
I've seen a tuba (no sh*t) at an English session, and the player was smelly and opinionated, so not the most popular of guys, but did he care?
Skin as thick as a Rhinoceros.
Please don't be like him, Noah. We're about to witness human misery on an unprecedented scale, wrt African famine. We don't need more.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
Okay scrap the drum idea I'm going to go for the whistle. I've had a look at a few websites and they are not just metal tubes, some of them actually look cool with slidey bits. I'll take your advice Glauber and get a D whistle, although most of the tunes I play are in G or A minor. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to learn more tunes in D...
Tanya, you sound like a bubbly character who knows a lot of tunes. We should hook up sometime. Maybe we could get a band together! I like the experienced types
By the way, who's "Will"?
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Noah Treeman
Re: please help
Good one, Noah.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by glauber
Re: please help
LOL -- you may have noticed that we never see Noah and Will *in the same room*...
zls
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
You all keep talking about learning to play a whistle. How long does it actually take one to learn to "play" a whistle? How does one go about learning?
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by flashbaxz
Re: please help
Oh I'm so sorry Domhniaill Mac Aoidh, you certainly did have the advice first. And Noah, a D whistle also plays in the keys of G and Am. Keep learnin' them tunes. And how long does it take to learn to play the whistle? About 2 seconds. How long to play it well? Hmmm... anyone out there who's arrived yet?
Colleen
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by cdavick
Re: please help
Noah do you really play reels with the sax?
I'm a sax soprano player too, but I use the sax for breton music only, and sometime for irish slow air or slow jigs. For me is too hard to play a reel with the sax.
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by gian marco
Re: please help
Sessioneers, at the risk of boring everybody to tears, I implore you all to try this link http://www.dervish.ie/racket.htm , It will charm you all into submission!
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Backer
Re: please help
Noah, if you are going for a whistle, don't waste your money for an expansive one! I suggest a Feadog.( for me is the best ).
And don't forget to buy an Mary Bergin's album!!
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by gian marco
Re: please help
Speaking of Sax and whistle. Does anyone have the old whistle tutor by Larry McCullough with the picture of him in the back. What a trip!! He's all decked out in his seventies garb, sunglasses, sideburns, bell-bottoms and cradling his alto sax.
Ahh, the good old days.
Perhaps a thread on sex and whistle. Oh, Dow's already been there
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Tusong200
Advice to Beginers
Noah sends out a dove, and it comes back with a beak full of thorns.
You couldn't resist could you, some one new comes to this site and the first thing he gets is a load of negative caveats about how acceptable he will be at sessions.
And if that’s not scared him off he gets the "rules".
I thought the aim of this site was to encourage people new to the music, not dump a pile of irrelevant moral guff on them.
Do you really believe that sessions are hieratical structures with the "lead" players at the top and every one else following along bellow. People who know more tunes will obviously tend to start more sets, but the idea that once every one joins in that person is somehow leading the music is nonsense (sessions don't need conductors). The best sessions I attend are not organised vertically but horizontally, allowing any one to start a set.
The hole essence of a session for me is the loss of individual Ego that occurs when a room of people become a super-instrument being played by the tune.
Perhaps some of the contributors here have not experienced this "social state collapse". I hope that's not true because it's a wonderful life affirming process that is at the heart of human cultural evolution.
End of rant.
Please try to be a bit more positive to new people visiting this site so that when were in our dotage, younger folks will still be celebrating life in this wonderful way and allowing us to start a few tunes.
All the best PP
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: please help
Just for the record, Noah's query--which is either a very effective wind up or a serious threat to homeland security in the US hinterland--has me sweating bullets in worry over the day he walks into our Montana session and pulls up a chair!
LOL Frank, it's easy for you to encourage Noah at your distance from Montana! But those of us in Helena will know Noah by his sax case, and he will know us by how quickly the room empties.
Which is what happened when--no lie--someone once came to a session here (in Missoula, actually) intent on playing his rocks. That's not a typo. This guy had picked up two cobblestones from the Clark Fork River and claimed they were "finely tuned" (which is more than we could say about him). He proceeded to bang them against each other in no discernible rhythm--kinda like "uber" bones played by a manic chimp. He became very irate when the session leader asked--no, *told*--him to stop, and he left in his own cloud of profanities.
Please, I know that "rhythm stones" *are* a trad instrument, predating the bone whistle no doubt. But I don't want to read any posts in defense of their use at sessions!
(So now it occurs to me that I just wasted a perfectly good story in this discussion thread, when it might've won me an Amazon gift certificate if I'd posted it under The Scholar, the tune we were attempting to play despite the rocks. Sigh.)
I hate to appear close minded, and I run a very welcoming, open session, but here in the States we get all sorts of instruments and attitudes walking in the door, and if we didn't have some boundaries, we'd end up playing O-TKBA-PPCOHBSAWALBOITM--"Old-Timey Klezmer Bluegrass Afro-Pop Punk Cajun Outer Hebrides Breton Ska Australopithecus with a little bit of Irish Traditional Music"--every week. Is it too much to ask to set aside one night a week for a bit of the pure drop?
Will
(Somewhere in Montana, hotbed of O-TKBA-PPCOHBSAWALBOIT Music)
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Advice to Beginers
Pied, I think your rant is misplaced. Take a look at my post on Noah's thread for one reason some of us would prefer not to have a sax (or cobble stones) player with little to no experience on the jigs and reels sitting in at our sessions.
I agree wholeheartedly with you that individual ego disappears at good sessions. But that doesn't happen when the music is complete sh*te, as it usually is when someone on a loud instrument and no knowledge of the music insists on playing in. The worst example of this I've ever heard of is when a guy brought a car horn wired to a battery to a session, expecting to play rhythm. Myself, I prefer to play in sessions, not traffic jams.
I think Noah was winding us up. If not, he's better off knowing that some (many) session players won't welcome his sax, at the very least until he woodsheds at home and learns the tunes first, and even then some session players would sooner pack up and leave than sit in with a sax. Whether you like it or not, that's part of how the session world operates. He asked, and people here gave him honest answers. I see nothing wrong with that.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Advice to Beginers
I don't know, PP. As a neutral who took no part in that thread but who read it, I had a very different impression of things. It's not a question of 'not being able to resist', simply that sometimes newcomers are through no fault of their own unfamiliar with the nebulous concepts of session etiquette and people are understandably motivated to prevent that person putting their foot in it. For a room full of people to achieve the desired state of social collapse though, they do have to start from a position of agreement. I didn't detect any nastiness in the advice given to Noah, just attempts to warn him about the 'realpolitik' of many sessions. Love the Noah/beak analogy by the way!
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by sergeant fox
Re: please help
Backer,
I went to the site you recommended that has tune samples from a couple CDs of Irish music played on the saxaphone. Not bad really!
-Troy
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by RTP
Re: please help
Will, your post had me laughing out loud! The mental image of an actual chimp banging away on rocks!! Maybe you can still tell your story under the tunes area for the competition...
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Andee
Re: please help
Andee, that's the thing about the odd "non-traditional" instrument showing up at a session now and then: might be highly annoying at the time, but destined to a long life told and retold to brighten someone's day a little.
Some of my session mates recently gave me an Amazon gift certificate, so I'll abstain from the competition and enjoy everyone else's entries....
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: please help
Hi,
Just to tell that I heard that the sax had been quite used in Irish music at the beg. of the 20th century. Yet, I would not know how to include it a session... (but I don't play sax).
Otherwise, Tenor sax is quite used in Breton music, as well as clarinet (The fest noz band "Diwall" is quite a good reference of this...).
Rob
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Robinson
Re: please help
Will, the Scholar is one of those tunes that invites hostility, with or without rocks. I think you should post your story there too, get this contest thing started! I look forward to the day when whenever we check the tunes section, all of the discussions there have the same title ("True Story").
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by glauber
Re: please help
Really G-man? So in Chicago they don't like the Scholar? "What's Up with that?"
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Advice to Beginers
Pied, i'm very proud of myself, that at least this time i took the high road, gave the guy the benefit-of-the-doubt and wasted about half an hour looking for whistle references to get him started. But i'm 99.99% convinced that that thread is a hoax, or, as we old timers used to say, a troll. Still, i didn't unload any sarcasm on the guy; there's about 0.01% of a chance that he's for real.
The thing about the bodhran being a nice harmless instrument might have been true cluelessness (if they guy has just come down from Mars), but the part about most of his tunes being in Gm or Am is not. I wonder what he's going to ask next, probably about the tunes from Titanic or My Heart Will Go On. Or maybe about slow airs. Keep tuned!
For the record, i have nothing against sax, sex or rocks in a session (when done well).
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by glauber
Scholar
Isn't that the one that people play as fast as possible to show off? Maybe i'm thinking of the wrong tune, maybe it's the Acrobat.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by glauber
Re: Advice to Beginers
Hey Glauber, if you have rocks at a session does that mean the crack is good?
Paul.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by sergeant fox
Re: Advice to Beginers
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by glauber
Re: please help
Two totally different tunes: The (Poor) Scholar, a reel, is one of the few tunes I can play fast on the box. The Acrobat is a rare, but fantastic, but for me unplayable hornpipe, I've heard only on the Heritage album Tell Tae Me. Unless there's another by the same name.
The session here used to have a little man who would appear with a metal washboard thing which he wore, like a bib! - no kidding. He looked like the metal man from The Wizard of Oz. It would have been hilarious, but he was able to drown out even several boxes and banjos.
He didn't last.
I also had a quick listen to the samples on that link. Quite interesting, and unusual. I don't know how many times I could listen to it, though, and I don't think it would grow on me; and in any case a totally different scenario to that of Noah's.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
I was just skimming through this post and think that starting on the whistle is good advice. Our local session is pretty friendly and tolerant, but a sax would not go over very well. I'm sure someone would politely ask not to play it.
Good luck with the whistle Noah. If you really enjoy it, you might want to consider Irish wooden flute. I'm mad about my flute and would play all day if I could : ) A buddy of mine said that even when a flute player makes mistakes (I make a lot!!), it still sounds pretty....
Joyce
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by JMH
Re: please help
The harp is yer instrument for that, Joyce! Can't make too many truly awful mistakes on a harp, even the irredeemable mistakes sound nice.
Will, I only wish I could have been there for the rock incident. Whole new meaning for getting one's rocks off...and Danny, I've noted that whenever something could have been hilarious, it inevitably *isn't* -- until afterwards. Then it makes a great story for ages and ages and ages. Will, I too think yours belongs under the heading of True Story in the sessions section...
Back to the grindstone...
zls
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
There are also a fair number of good whistle and wooden flute players in Montana, many of them willing to teach.
Come to think of it, I'm glad to meet Noah online here, since we're Montana "neighbors." Last weekend we got 32 inches of snow in 24 hours and now it's in the 50s F., so his ark should come in handy.
Seriously, Noah, send me an email (click on my name after this post and then click on "send an email") and tell me where in MT you live. Chances are I know a local--from Libby to Red Lodge, the Bitterroot Valley to Butte, and everywhere in between--who can help you become constructively obsessed with jigs and reels. There are active sessions in Hamilton, Butte, Helena, and Bozeman, with more sporadic sessions in Kalispell, Polson, and the Billings/Red Lodge area, and some knowledgeable musicians in Missoula, so unless you live in Ekalaka or Scobey, we've about got you covered.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: please help
"Back to the *grindstone*"....snort!
Okay, I'll post it there, but only to break the ice. Mind you, if no more than two more stories get posted, I'm guaranteed a prize. So don't leave me hanging...I'd hate to take first place in a field of one....
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: please help
Aha! Now I know who Will is. Will I'm sure I've heard of you before somewhere...
Thanks for the advice everyone. I'd love to try and make it to some of the sessions here, but I think I'll leave it for the moment. I have to learn how to play the whistle first! I won't bring my ark with me because I don't have a case for it
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Noah Treeman
Re: Advice to Beginers
Don't worry I didn't take offense - I can see now that the sax is inappropriate. I do think the bowran is pretty goddamn cool though. I think I might buy one anyway and play it at home...
And yes Glauber I am totally clueless when it comes to Irish music I'm afraid, but I do know a bit about keys from playing jazz. When I said that most of my tunes were in G or Am, I simply meant that of the like 10 tunes I play (!), most are in those keys because I liked the tunes and the way they sound (the Tenpenny Bit for example is one of my favorites). However on the sax they end up not being in that key.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Noah Treeman
Re: please help
So you read the police reports in the papers, eh? Well, don't believe all of it.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Advice to Beginers
Feel free to pick up the bodhran, and even to bring it to Will's session. *smirk* I personally really like having a good bodhran player sitting in the circle. But do remember that the best bodhran players do say that you should still learn the tunes to be able to play with them well, even on a bodhran.
Zina
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice to Beginers
Thanks Zina, might as well make it *four* bodhrans going at our local session!
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: please help
I wondered about your name, Tanya.
Hope to see you in August, then!
Zina
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
It may be a small world, but my memory is like the Big Sky--windblown and empty. I can't even place the band name, other than the jig. It's possible we met at the all-day session in Montana two Februaries ago--so many new faces, I can't put names to them all. Or the post-Solas house session in Missoula last year? I'm in Helena...where are you, Tanya?
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Advice to Beginners
I must say that reading thru Noah's earlier thread, there were a few times I cringed at the 'elitist' attitude that seemed to underlie the comments. After all, the best session I've ever been in was in the bistro of a pub at Port Fairt folk fest where half the bloody room got hold of dessert spoons, salt & pepper shakers or anything else that would make noise, and all joined in. We also tolerated a drunken canary who wanted to do an Elvis number. (we quietly waited till he finished, and then started belting out tunes again). The crowd loved it. So did the publican.
Also, the music that 'hooked' me into ITM was listening to the album "the Storm" by Moving Hearts which had several tracks with great sax playing. I also checked out the link someone posted in Noah's stream to the Dervish site which refers to "one of Irelands most exciting new trad bands", and yes, it includes a sax.
My understanding is that some "sessions" are more formal than others. Which reminds me......
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by GerryTh
Re: Advice to Beginers
How lovely, spoons! Something to torture Bridie with!
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice to Beginers
Gerry, yeah, we've all had fun with those impromptu free-for-alls that sometimes happen at sessions. At last week's Tuesday night session here, in honor of Fat Tuesday, we had some cajun tunes (with *two* triangles played!) and a cajun song, sung in whatever dialect of French that is. And it was great fun. But for me, that works best if it's the occasional exception and not the rule. I do play other genre's of music, and other non-trad instruments, but I mostly save them for other evenings.
Plus the red flag in Noah's query was that he really doesn't know the tunes yet. Get him woodshedding to learn a bunch of tunes and work out a viable style on the sax, and yeah, I'd play with him. But I'd rather not go through his learning process at our local session, any more than I would expect people to put up with me learning fiddle in public. (That was painful enough in private, thank you
Years ago, I played a couple of gigs with a clarinet player who made it sound like the most natural Irish trad instrument in the world, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Even learned some tunes from him. But he didn't get there by honking away in sessions, ad libbing to the tunes. He learned to play them well, at home, first, and then people were happy to have him sit in. Also, our current session enjoys the company of a piper who uses an electric chanter and an amp. Almost anything goes--if the player knows the music and doesn't hog the acoustics.
Frankly, when I re-read the thread Noah started, I'm surprised at how much effort people put into not being overly discouraging. Like it or not, real-world sessions are not always so diplomatic or gentle with players' feelings, and people were right to point that out.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: please help
Well, Noah, if you are still around I actually started out on saxophone some 10 or so years ago and it is very easy to switch from saxophone to tin whistle in fact I got a head start in that I just had to pick up the songs and if you have played sax long enough you can pick up the tunes too. Like everyone says around here, Listen Listen Listen!! Thats the only way you will learn. I actually listen to a cd of Planxty or the Bothy Band before I go to sleep at night and it puts me right to sleep, plus I learn songs that way very easily. Enough rambling
I say pick up the tin whistle, I've played it for a good year or so. A "d" whistle reads music exactly the same that a saxophone does, except what you think an f natural is is really and f sharp and there is no octave key. I actually wanted to learn the whistle properly so I lift my index finger on the d above middle c which is quite common and makes it easier when you get a low whistle. Notice I said when, because once you pick up a whistle you will develop WHOA (for interpretation see chiffandfipple.com) and you will have to have every whistle in every key from every maker. I am picking up Irish flute now too, and thats easily acceptable as well. In general, I see pick up whistle it will be more fulfilling than a guy beating a drum and constantly speeding up the tempo, which bodhran players always do. And, its a waste to be so close to already having an instrument practically learned and not pick it up. Get a Meg or a Sweetone by Clarke, I still play mine consistently and from there get a Dixon with the brass tuning slide. There's more than my $.02 worth there, any question email me.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by michael_coleman
Re: Advice to Beginers
Yeah 'advice to beginers - dont play spoons - please!?"
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by bb
Re: Advice to Beginers
Also - Pied - I really dont see how anyone thorned anyone in that other post, I know the usual offenders really well (hahahaha) and they all held back very well I think. It couldve been alot worse than that. In fact I thought it was all quite friendly and chatty and helpful.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by bb
Re: please help
The reason we don't see Will and Noah in the same room is because they're exact opposites in parallel universes. Just like we have the notion of "anti-Christ", we've got an "Antee Harmon" (of which Noah Treeman is an anagram). Are they one and the same? I think we should be told...
Conán
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Advice to Beginers - drink vertically
Horizontal sessions are fine as long as you, personally can start a set at 8pm, and another, and another and another. Then come back next week, remembering which sets you played last week, and start three or four more, without repetition. (To give you a chance, three or four times through each tune may be allowed, but only for this thread).
If you cannot, stick to vertical sessions.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Advice to Beginers
Horizontal sessions, rocks, craic, vertical sessions.....Im getting dizzy here, may I bring in my Bombarde?
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Backer
Re: Advice to Beginers
I really like horizontal sessions. Oh wait, are we talking about music here?
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice to Beginers
In a horrizontal session, would the flautist's ( I was careful there !) dribbles land on the floor and not in the banjo player's pint?
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Backer
Re: Advice to Beginers
Pied, Honesty is never a bad thing even for beginners.
Truth is also never a bad thing.
(Both can be very problematic. Problems are opportunities knocking at the door.)
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Tusong200
Re: Advice to Beginers
It's some kind of physics rule, or maybe I mean quantum, that the fluter's spit will land somewhere that will gross everyone out. I'm just glad that the trombone is not a normal feature of the session -- I used to sit in front of the trombones in high school orchestra, and there's nothing like accidentally putting a sandalled foot into a pool of greenish trombone spit...
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
Good god, Conán, what a mind you have! ;) How the hell did you think of that anagram thing?!
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Advice to Beginers
Maybe if we got the Sax player to sit on the right hand side of the flute; if the horn does'nt catch it, his bodhran action will cause it to vapourise harmsessly.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Backer
Re: Advice to Beginers
I don't know what kind of flutists you guys have in your sessions, but for the record, i don't drool into my flute. Unless, of course, when Zina shows up in one of her black leather outfits.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by glauber
Re: please help
Um, are you calling Montana a parallel universe? Then there's hope for us yet--if we can find the matching "good" set of politicians and replace the ones we're suffering under now....
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Advice to Beginers
PVC. I can't afford leather.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
So, according to the laws of modern physics, if Harmon and antee-Harmon were combined, the result would be total annihilation of the pair.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
Tanya, click on http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1254
for the thread here about our August rendezvous in Helena. Somewhere in that thread you'll also find the link to our yahoo site with a little more info and a sign up page for anyone who plans on attending. The bottom line is that Lunasa will be in Butte on August 8-9, and we may get Solas in Helena on August 11, and a bunch of thesession.org members are showing up to play together around the same time.
Hope you can make it too.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: please help
I'm just wondering how come Conan was clever enough to think of that anagram. Maybe Noah's not Will, maybe he's Conan...
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Dow
By the way Tanya, I thought you said you lived in Montana (? stone's throw alright). If you're in Sydney you should meet up with the Aussie contingent from thesession!
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Dow
Re: please help
Hmm. Actually, by the rules of physics, if Harmon and Antee-Harmon meet up, it would mean the total annihilation of EVERYthing, by chain reaction, wouldn't it?
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
And...maybe Tanya is actually Bridie!
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: please help
Well Bridie? Are you?
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Dow
Re: please help
you guys are bloody hilarious!!! I am definatly not tanya and I'm pretty sure she's not me! Hi tanya - I'm bridie - dont be listening to them girl - they are trying to mess with your head
This Will/Noah thing is a bit freaky - Conan - you are obviously a very, very smart boy -why is it you play the piano accordian again??? Ouch!!! 
just kidding as I'm sure you know
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by bb
Re: please help
I think he plays the piano accordion because he couldn't find a saxophone when he started learning.
Noah, by the way, could combine his love of the saxophone and the bodhran, and become a specialist on the didgeridhran. I wish i could find that Web site again... does someone still have the link?
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by glauber
Re: please help
What's wrong with the good old Bodhrophone?
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Ottery
Re: please help
Is that like a bodhran with an attached loudspeaker?
Sounds nice...
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Dow
Re: please help
shheezus! can't yuo Auossies or Yankxs splell properley? Sidney/Sydney - iz thaht sew difficalt?
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
Yes!
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Dow
Re: please help
me and dow are in sydney australia - but dont let Dow put you off visiting
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by bb
Re: please help
Hey Tanya come and visit us. You're welcome to stay at bb's free of charge for however long you want and she'll feed you and take you out to all the sessions!
Danny your Scottish accent really came across in your last post. [Ducks to avoid being hit]
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Dow
Re: please help
Sorry, I forgot about the anagram thing! Danny reminded me today. I'm a bit frightened of all this talk of annihilation. I mean, everything might be destroyed???? At least leave me my Tommy Peoples CDs!
Conán
# Posted on March 12th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: please help
It' ok Conan - CD's have got Black Holes in the middle of them.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
You've all convinced me never to take my sax to a session. Thanks to you I have found a new hobby - anagrams!
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Noah Treeman
Re: please help
Noah/Will - what do you mean NEW hobby?
You can't fool us with that one.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
Will please tell them I'm not you please!
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Noah Treeman
Re: please help
....and you've got multiple personality disorder.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
Okay, I'm a writer by trade, and anal retentive to boot, so *if* I were going to anagram "Anti-Harmon" my screen name would've been the more Irish-sounding Martin O'Han.
Noah actually emailed me (he lives about 120 miles from Helena), so I *know* he's not me (my life is complicated enough without running two screen personalities *and* commuting 240 miles a day
.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: please help
Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
And so am I.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: please help
OK lads - I reckon the party's over here. Fun while it lasted but it's getting to be at 2 people's expense. Thanks to Noah and Will for taking the jibes with good humour. I for one am calling it a day here. See youse on the other threads.
Danny.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by xyz
Re: please help
Lol...
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Some poems rhyme
but this one doesn't.
Heh heh. I'm a poet, and I wasn't even aware of it! doo hoo hoo.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by no longer exists
Re: please help
Tune/song/air called "The Fair Haired Cassidy" please
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by friel
Re: please help
This thread started with a probable leg pull and ends (hopefully) with a faux pas
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by timjellies
Re: please help
What's a fox's pass?
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: please help
That depends on the proximity of the hounds.
# Posted on March 13th 2003 by Gra5ity
Re: please help
Trevor, "fox's pass" is an anagram of "poss. f****** sax".
# Posted on March 14th 2003 by Noah Treeman
... and "faux pas" = "a f***** up sax".
# Posted on March 14th 2003 by Noah Treeman