The Session >> Discussions >> Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Comments
Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Several posts over the last few days got me thinking about a common challenge - how do you know if you have the true and right version of the tune? the search for the "pure drop" if such a thing really exists. Llig highlighted some good points with things like "folk lapses" and one or two "wrong notes" making the waters muddy in a session. At the end of the day how important is it to the music?
Take a simple tune like Garret Barry's Jig. L.E. McCullough sold a very popular tune learning CD series called 121 Favorite Session tunes. His version is different from the ABC on this web-site, which is different from the version on Norbeck's ABC web-site. I have a friend - a quality flute player with 500 tunes at ready recall who learned it in Dublin where they play F naturals instead of F#'s through the A section. There is also a very popular book of tunes making it's way around the Western United States called the King Street Sessions. It lists yet another slightly different version.
So - if somebody was trying to learn the tune for the first time - he or she might find 5 different versions of what many would consider a pretty common jig. I know for me, I sift through the many versions I hear, (old and new recordings if possible) and find the one that seems to be the MOST common version. I'm curious if others are vexed by this or if it just really isn't that big a deal and common to any aural folk tradition.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Sorry, I seem to be leaping into a few threads tonight - ah well, why not? I'd suggest that that the key to some of those questions might be found in the word 'community'. Garret Barry's is a good example. I've had about four different versions of it by now, each one dictated by the musical community, or the tape (the first version), in which I've been playing or listening to.
Some tunes seem more stable than others. I don't really know why that is. Without going on and on, the affinities between linguistics and an essentially aural/oral tradition seem myriad.
This could be a very interesting thread. Probably been had out before here, but I'm interested.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I'd say it's good form to follow whoever's leading the tune, Jusa.... & often small differences do not clash, they sometimes even harmonize with one another.
If you have at least one version memorized it'll be faster to adjust to someone else's version. (then you can expect for people to learn versions of your favorites when you lead...)
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I agree completely Morning Star - I can bend Garret's with whomever is leading it and have no trouble with the fact that there are varying versions. However, I know there are some out there who believe there are or should be "correct" versions of a tune. I'm hoping they will chime in...
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Yes, interesting one. I play a few versions of Garret Barry's. Finbar Furey's being my favourite. I have a feeling it's the right version. Feelings are important when you have no evidence. I'll happily play the other versions if someone starts one, but I usually like to have a chat about the tune after we've played it. People express their preferences, say where they got their's (if they can remember, it's not important) and we might show each other how the bits vary. The culmination of these chats have resolved the tune into the Finbar Fury version.
This conversation has come up before and it kind of polarised into those who hold one version as the standard, and those who are happy to remember different versions. I don't think it really matters so long as you don't try and play different versions on top of each other (with the exception of when they work together, f sharps and f naturals is not one of those)
My big problem though, is when people eschew their favourite over the most common. If you have your favourite version then fight your corner, convince your mates why it's better. If you are right, then they'll agree.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Thanks for submitting this thread. I believe Tam Lin's is another example worthy of mention. Seems no one has exactly the same version. I have given up playing the tune in sessions, but I do use the various setting to include a variety of variations. Should I be able to settle on one setting with another player, all the better.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Yeah, agreed. But what if you are wrong and you still win? This is what's really interesting about culture (in the broadest sense) and how it develops. Or doesn't.
There was presumably some character who originally wrote this tune, the thing is that some of the variations or settings or whatever are actually also quite good. The problem then is working out who is winning in the battles over what is considered good,and then, to complicate the issue, why?
I've had my own battles over settings, sometimes proper battles and more frequently conversations, and it's always interesting to try to work out how the upper-hand is gained. I've probably lost more settings than I've learned tunes. Maybe that means I'm unduly malleable!
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
someone tried to shoot me the other day for playing a tune in the "wrong setting" and in a sadly un-breton rhythm. They just hit someone else though. Really.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
So............ does this mean that a tune is set in stone as long as the author of said tune is living?
(regardless of right or wrong setting & rhythm.....guns just shouldn't be allowed at sessions )
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Wot are you on about???? People in africa with one or two home made instruments??? Clapping??? Think for a moment before you submit this random nonsense. That is soooooooooo out of order in so many ways I can't begin to list them.
Like for one: I play a home made instrument.
Back to the purpose of this thread quick. I really don't want to go colonial (post).
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Before Trad and pavif take this thread in a different direction - I would like to direct your attention to a good point morning star made above regarding living artists. We play a few of McGoldrick's tunes from time to time, and I must say if he ever stumbled into our session and heard us "regionally interpreting" his music incorrectly, I'd feel a bit foolish actually..
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Another example - Sporting Nell. It's not played in my local session, so I'm combining ideas from 'Happy to Meet' (Tony Linnane, et al), Gerry O'Connor (Journeyman) and Tulla ceili band. The Linnane and O'Connor versions are so far apart they are like 2 different tunes. The Tulla version is sort of in the middle. They are all great performances; I don't know which one is more trad since I didn't grow up in Ireland with real stuff.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Speaking as someone who writes tunes, I don't consider my tunes as having a single "correct" version. In fact, mostly I don't play them the exact way I wrote them. Over time, variations creep in and become part of the fabric of the tune. When I hear someone else play a cool variation on one of my tunes, I don't get upset, I get excited and try to learn it myself.
A tune isn't an exact series of notes, it's a series of musical ideas, and generally there are quite a few different ways of expressing each idea...
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I'll stand behind L.E Mc... He's done nothing but promote good music around the ITM world...If there is a problem after the tune is done, it's at least something to talk about the rest of the night....who learned it where and from who...
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
To go back a few posts: "This is ,we maintain, a solo art form."
Uhh, I don't maintain that. I'd maintain that traditional music of whatever form/nationality (including Irish) is an expression of community, whether that is by playing for dancers, playing in a group, or whatever.
If people play different versions, who gives a toss? What breaks things is if people blindly (deafly?) play one version of a tune with no regard for what others are playing. Very much like if one person piles along at their own tempo without paying attention to others.
Of course, different communities will have their own ways of doing things. That makes it right, not wrong.
The correct version is the way the strongest player at the session plays it.
If it is a strong player who is also a blow-in to yr session, then the nicest way of saying he has the wrong version is to say, "Here we play it this way," and demonstrate.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Please forgive me for my apparent ignorance and stupidity. I originally felt that this thread was headed somewhere interesting, instead it seems to have fallen into misreading and ridiculousness. I had no intention of referring to the people of africa as 'dem poor folk', I took it to be your inference. I also took exception to your comment that you didn't want to suggest we 'revert'. I don't have time to explain why, and neither is this the place to do so. I find that this is neither ignorant nor stupid on my part, but again forgive me if this is not the case.
I am interested in how tunes develop or do not develop and the ways in which development can be both positive and negative. I am interested in the criteria that govern what is considered correct and what incorrect. I am not interested in having a slanging match with you.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Tradpiper: just to pick at your argument a bit more, just because there is a melody line it doesn't mean that it is meant to be played solo. A selection of instruments all playing the same melody adds all sorts of texture to the music. Playing together isn't a compromise, it is pretty much the essence of the music.
It looks from your last post like we don't disagree in essence, I just wanted to add another thought or two.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Well - at least I am glad that most of us recognize that this is a fluid tradition with quirks and variations and most of us are OK with it all. I thought for sure we would here from the other - more stringent camp regarding the "purity" of the tune etc. Afterall, who hasn't been at a session at least once where somebody kicked off a tune, and some joker bellowed "That's wrong...it goes like this..." What I find funny is the fact that those comments don't usually come from a seasoned player - they have come to understand the nature of the music through years of participation and listening. It certainly doesn't come from a newbie - they would never have the audacity to make such a claim. "That's wrong..." is usually shouted out by somebody like me - an intermediate with around ten years under their belt - just enough knowledge on the subject to make an educated ar*se out of themselves.
I think Pavif posed the best question on the subject - why do some tunes remain static and unchanged while others seem to take on different if not multiple mutations?
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
>why do some tunes remain static and unchanged while others seem to ... take on mutations?
Survival of the fittest? A finely crafted melody will survive. It doesn't matter if its Bach or Madonna. If there's substance behind it, we'll be playing or singing it and it will keep appearing in movies and such from time to time. Fortunately, the Madonna requests are made in someone else's bar...
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I don't believe music should fall into the same reasoning as 'intelligent design', it's a constantly evolving chinese whisper.
Imagine,there was a time when reels and jigs never existed at all,,,,,,??
Nah,,,,,
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Monkey440 - you may be right, but it also implies that the tunes that do change are not well crafted or don't have strong or well remembered melody lines - I'm not sure that is true either....
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
The idea of trad is to make the tune your own. I listen to lots of different versions until I have the tune in my head. Then I change little bits of it so that it feels comfortable on my instrument and use ornamentation and bass notes/chords to articulate and emphasize whatever notes or rhythms I feel like emphasizing when I play the tune. In this way, it's constantly evolving. All my tunes are at varying stages of evolution. If you just learn one version of the tune and play it the same way each time then you haven't got the tune and it's not music, it's just copying, and it'll be crap, but a lot of people are happy with that.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I'm not so sure dow. It's a dangerous thing to to say that the idea is to make the tune your own. I understand what you are getting at, but the problem arises when people who can't play (or worse, people who can play, but just can't play this music) use it as cart blanche to do what ever they like with the tunes. You have to understand the parameters before you go making tunes your own.
And I see nothing wrong with playing someone else's setting. If it really is a crackingly brilliant version, from a cracking player, then why not play it like that? People are always trying to improve things, but if you have a little slice of perfectly formed perfection, leave it be.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Yeah Michael, you have to be able to play first. And in order to be able to play you first have to do your time copying other people. But then once you can play there's little to be gained from copying, in terms of creativity, self-fulfilment and musicality. A lot of perfectly good musos do play and record other people's versions, but I think there's more to be gained by pushing yourself to come up with something unique that says something about *you* - like your own personal stamp.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
When I was learning (aged 10) it was mostly from old dance band records (like the Gallowglass). My ear wasn't as educated as it is now, so what I couldn't pick out I made my best guess. I have been playing some of those tunes the same way now for 30-odd years (and yes, I mean odd) & have taught them to my kids the same way. I guess it's a case of 'technology' (well, a Fidelity record player anyway) breaking the Aural Tradition. But how long does it take for something to become the tradition.................???
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Wow! Who'd have thought it. Thanks MacCruiskeen, I'd just never have known without you pointing it out.
... mind you, I'm so busy keeping up to professional standard on my 15 million instruments in a tent on Ben Nevis (for the last 75 years) that I can tend to miss these things ...
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
My Dad wrote a song called 'Queen of the May' (Maureen's Song) all about Padstow May Day. We played in Padstow quite a lot then & one night (when the song was a couple of years old) he was told "Ere boy, you've got the words wrong". My father's response was soon put down by him being told "You didn't write that, I remember my grandfather singing it".......and so it drifted in Padstow's tradition !!
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Ah yes, that mighty 'T' question. Sadly, my involvement in the music tends to wax & wane as time permits. Having bought a Fylde OM about 6 months ago, but being an old style (or is that traditional) mandoline player, I decided to hit the web for some free advice on how to play in this 'Nu Irish' way. Whilst there I came across a band called Kasir. Brilliant !!! A band of 3 youngsters playing with such spirit & surely full of Irish Tradition going back for generations. I'm still chewing my tongue having found out that they are 5/6 Danish (assuming Oisin's mother is Danish). I don't know where that leaves the Tradition question......(I still think they must be Irish...........)!
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
We used to have a Portugese flat back mandola that my dad wanted tuned as mandolin...but the scale length was just a bit long so it was tuned 1 tone low. A great education for me because he played with a capo but I played it open. So it meant learning to play in keys a mandolin player would not normally play in, like E & B. Do you mean like the bottom end of a guitar? Which way across the strings are you working? Anyway, the OM is tuned an octave below a Mandloin. It is after all an Ocatve MANDOLIN.....& there lies a whole other debate.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Sorry Jusa Nutter Eejit...we seem to have highjacked & tangented this discussion somewhat........but that's just what happens to the music. A little bit of lateral improvisation, someone picks up on that, & it's not the tune it started out as !!
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Yes, just like the' lin but with a bigger body. Commonly & mistakenly called an Octave Mandola. In the theory of things:-
Mandolin, Mandola, Mandocello & Mandobass. The Octave Mandolin is tuned an octave lower than a mandolin & is in the family as the result of some hideous in-breeding. Maybe that's why you need 6 fingers to play one & you can ‘hear those banjos ringin' at the same time. By the way, can you play Duelin' Ban....no I won't even ask.....
Check out the Fylde website to see my baby strangely enough in Mandola section !!
www.fyldeguitars.com
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
God my keyboard skills get worserer (Cornish up-bringing!). I just noticed, worse than adding an 'e' I have now called it a mandloin.....didn't Tarzan wear one of those???? BTW, the last person that called me Dude was from Colorado....am I conversing with someone with a grasp of English.......or (an) American ??
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
These discussions are so interesting (except the personal snipes.) In our little recreational session groups (not very professional) we go around the circle and take turns picking the song. That person presides over it and may not choose the setting or version you like most or even considered most authentic, but the one who called the song decides. Everyone else joins in as they can and is nice, no grumbling or whiney comparing-just a "thank you, that was great, I like that version" when the song is over. If you want to do the song your way, choose and lead it at the next session. Of course, we are just for fun--nothing else at stake.
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Hello gilesg, don't take personal snipes too seriously unless they question your parentage. Those who do otherwise….I shall say no more. As a guy of 16 stone (that's 224 pounds for those west of the Pond, 102kg for the rest of Europe) I can take as good as I give.
Don’t worry about professionalism……the only requirement of a session is ‘A good time had by all.’ (except for the guy who sat there with a copy of Mally’s 100…and told everyone they were playing it wrong). I would rather see a band that plays with heart & soul than one that only with technical perfection. (BTW, started writing in Word, then cut-&-paste into the discussion….my spolling should be butter now….but it doesn’t improve the content).
Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Several posts over the last few days got me thinking about a common challenge - how do you know if you have the true and right version of the tune? the search for the "pure drop" if such a thing really exists. Llig highlighted some good points with things like "folk lapses" and one or two "wrong notes" making the waters muddy in a session. At the end of the day how important is it to the music?
Take a simple tune like Garret Barry's Jig. L.E. McCullough sold a very popular tune learning CD series called 121 Favorite Session tunes. His version is different from the ABC on this web-site, which is different from the version on Norbeck's ABC web-site. I have a friend - a quality flute player with 500 tunes at ready recall who learned it in Dublin where they play F naturals instead of F#'s through the A section. There is also a very popular book of tunes making it's way around the Western United States called the King Street Sessions. It lists yet another slightly different version.
So - if somebody was trying to learn the tune for the first time - he or she might find 5 different versions of what many would consider a pretty common jig. I know for me, I sift through the many versions I hear, (old and new recordings if possible) and find the one that seems to be the MOST common version. I'm curious if others are vexed by this or if it just really isn't that big a deal and common to any aural folk tradition.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Sorry, I seem to be leaping into a few threads tonight - ah well, why not? I'd suggest that that the key to some of those questions might be found in the word 'community'. Garret Barry's is a good example. I've had about four different versions of it by now, each one dictated by the musical community, or the tape (the first version), in which I've been playing or listening to.
Some tunes seem more stable than others. I don't really know why that is. Without going on and on, the affinities between linguistics and an essentially aural/oral tradition seem myriad.
This could be a very interesting thread. Probably been had out before here, but I'm interested.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I'd say it's good form to follow whoever's leading the tune, Jusa.... & often small differences do not clash, they sometimes even harmonize with one another.
If you have at least one version memorized it'll be faster to adjust to someone else's version. (then you can expect for people to learn versions of your favorites when you lead...)
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by morning star
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I agree completely Morning Star - I can bend Garret's with whomever is leading it and have no trouble with the fact that there are varying versions. However, I know there are some out there who believe there are or should be "correct" versions of a tune. I'm hoping they will chime in...
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Yes, interesting one. I play a few versions of Garret Barry's. Finbar Furey's being my favourite. I have a feeling it's the right version. Feelings are important when you have no evidence. I'll happily play the other versions if someone starts one, but I usually like to have a chat about the tune after we've played it. People express their preferences, say where they got their's (if they can remember, it's not important) and we might show each other how the bits vary. The culmination of these chats have resolved the tune into the Finbar Fury version.
This conversation has come up before and it kind of polarised into those who hold one version as the standard, and those who are happy to remember different versions. I don't think it really matters so long as you don't try and play different versions on top of each other (with the exception of when they work together, f sharps and f naturals is not one of those)
My big problem though, is when people eschew their favourite over the most common. If you have your favourite version then fight your corner, convince your mates why it's better. If you are right, then they'll agree.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Thanks for submitting this thread. I believe Tam Lin's is another example worthy of mention. Seems no one has exactly the same version. I have given up playing the tune in sessions, but I do use the various setting to include a variety of variations. Should I be able to settle on one setting with another player, all the better.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Imnotirish
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Yeah, agreed. But what if you are wrong and you still win? This is what's really interesting about culture (in the broadest sense) and how it develops. Or doesn't.
There was presumably some character who originally wrote this tune, the thing is that some of the variations or settings or whatever are actually also quite good. The problem then is working out who is winning in the battles over what is considered good,and then, to complicate the issue, why?
I've had my own battles over settings, sometimes proper battles and more frequently conversations, and it's always interesting to try to work out how the upper-hand is gained. I've probably lost more settings than I've learned tunes. Maybe that means I'm unduly malleable!
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
someone tried to shoot me the other day for playing a tune in the "wrong setting" and in a sadly un-breton rhythm. They just hit someone else though. Really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMHAsz_M_Zo
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
So............ does this mean that a tune is set in stone as long as the author of said tune is living?
)
(regardless of right or wrong setting & rhythm.....guns just shouldn't be allowed at sessions
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by morning star
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Wot are you on about???? People in africa with one or two home made instruments??? Clapping??? Think for a moment before you submit this random nonsense. That is soooooooooo out of order in so many ways I can't begin to list them.
Like for one: I play a home made instrument.
Back to the purpose of this thread quick. I really don't want to go colonial (post).
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
No, none. But I know it.
Still, I do find your vision of africa peculiar. To say the least. Clue or none.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Before Trad and pavif take this thread in a different direction - I would like to direct your attention to a good point morning star made above regarding living artists. We play a few of McGoldrick's tunes from time to time, and I must say if he ever stumbled into our session and heard us "regionally interpreting" his music incorrectly, I'd feel a bit foolish actually..
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Another example - Sporting Nell. It's not played in my local session, so I'm combining ideas from 'Happy to Meet' (Tony Linnane, et al), Gerry O'Connor (Journeyman) and Tulla ceili band. The Linnane and O'Connor versions are so far apart they are like 2 different tunes. The Tulla version is sort of in the middle. They are all great performances; I don't know which one is more trad since I didn't grow up in Ireland with real stuff.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Hup
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Speaking as someone who writes tunes, I don't consider my tunes as having a single "correct" version. In fact, mostly I don't play them the exact way I wrote them. Over time, variations creep in and become part of the fabric of the tune. When I hear someone else play a cool variation on one of my tunes, I don't get upset, I get excited and try to learn it myself.
A tune isn't an exact series of notes, it's a series of musical ideas, and generally there are quite a few different ways of expressing each idea...
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Sol Foster
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I can't put my point of view on this better than as set out by Michael in his post above.
I'm chiming in mainly to say that there IS no correct version of Tam Lin. Not in polite company, at any rate ...
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I'll stand behind L.E Mc... He's done nothing but promote good music around the ITM world...If there is a problem after the tune is done, it's at least something to talk about the rest of the night....who learned it where and from who...
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by lamh trom
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
To go back a few posts: "This is ,we maintain, a solo art form."
Uhh, I don't maintain that. I'd maintain that traditional music of whatever form/nationality (including Irish) is an expression of community, whether that is by playing for dancers, playing in a group, or whatever.
If people play different versions, who gives a toss? What breaks things is if people blindly (deafly?) play one version of a tune with no regard for what others are playing. Very much like if one person piles along at their own tempo without paying attention to others.
Of course, different communities will have their own ways of doing things. That makes it right, not wrong.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by robharper
Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
The correct version is the way the strongest player at the session plays it.
If it is a strong player who is also a blow-in to yr session, then the nicest way of saying he has the wrong version is to say, "Here we play it this way," and demonstrate.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by cocus
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
That all sounds very darwinian. cocus. Thankfully you didn't make reference to "dem poor folk" over in Africa with their home-made instruments.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Please forgive me for my apparent ignorance and stupidity. I originally felt that this thread was headed somewhere interesting, instead it seems to have fallen into misreading and ridiculousness. I had no intention of referring to the people of africa as 'dem poor folk', I took it to be your inference. I also took exception to your comment that you didn't want to suggest we 'revert'. I don't have time to explain why, and neither is this the place to do so. I find that this is neither ignorant nor stupid on my part, but again forgive me if this is not the case.
I am interested in how tunes develop or do not develop and the ways in which development can be both positive and negative. I am interested in the criteria that govern what is considered correct and what incorrect. I am not interested in having a slanging match with you.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Tradpiper: just to pick at your argument a bit more, just because there is a melody line it doesn't mean that it is meant to be played solo. A selection of instruments all playing the same melody adds all sorts of texture to the music. Playing together isn't a compromise, it is pretty much the essence of the music.
It looks from your last post like we don't disagree in essence, I just wanted to add another thought or two.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by robharper
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
For Pete's sake no-one ask tradpiper why women , almost without exception, make far better musicians than men.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Dread to think what the explanation would turn out to be.....
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Well - at least I am glad that most of us recognize that this is a fluid tradition with quirks and variations and most of us are OK with it all. I thought for sure we would here from the other - more stringent camp regarding the "purity" of the tune etc. Afterall, who hasn't been at a session at least once where somebody kicked off a tune, and some joker bellowed "That's wrong...it goes like this..." What I find funny is the fact that those comments don't usually come from a seasoned player - they have come to understand the nature of the music through years of participation and listening. It certainly doesn't come from a newbie - they would never have the audacity to make such a claim. "That's wrong..." is usually shouted out by somebody like me - an intermediate with around ten years under their belt - just enough knowledge on the subject to make an educated ar*se out of themselves.
I think Pavif posed the best question on the subject - why do some tunes remain static and unchanged while others seem to take on different if not multiple mutations?
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
>why do some tunes remain static and unchanged while others seem to ... take on mutations?
Survival of the fittest? A finely crafted melody will survive. It doesn't matter if its Bach or Madonna. If there's substance behind it, we'll be playing or singing it and it will keep appearing in movies and such from time to time. Fortunately, the Madonna requests are made in someone else's bar...
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by monkey440
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I don't believe music should fall into the same reasoning as 'intelligent design', it's a constantly evolving chinese whisper.
Imagine,there was a time when reels and jigs never existed at all,,,,,,??
Nah,,,,,
P
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Monkey440 - you may be right, but it also implies that the tunes that do change are not well crafted or don't have strong or well remembered melody lines - I'm not sure that is true either....
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
"I like to analise a tune to see if I can find a ~different~ place to put a triplet." Oh, God, help me, someone, I think I'm dying.
# Posted on August 18th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I just play the whole tune in triplets and then try figure out where there not appropriate.......
# Posted on August 18th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
The idea of trad is to make the tune your own. I listen to lots of different versions until I have the tune in my head. Then I change little bits of it so that it feels comfortable on my instrument and use ornamentation and bass notes/chords to articulate and emphasize whatever notes or rhythms I feel like emphasizing when I play the tune. In this way, it's constantly evolving. All my tunes are at varying stages of evolution. If you just learn one version of the tune and play it the same way each time then you haven't got the tune and it's not music, it's just copying, and it'll be crap, but a lot of people are happy with that.
# Posted on August 18th 2007 by Dow
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I'm not so sure dow. It's a dangerous thing to to say that the idea is to make the tune your own. I understand what you are getting at, but the problem arises when people who can't play (or worse, people who can play, but just can't play this music) use it as cart blanche to do what ever they like with the tunes. You have to understand the parameters before you go making tunes your own.
And I see nothing wrong with playing someone else's setting. If it really is a crackingly brilliant version, from a cracking player, then why not play it like that? People are always trying to improve things, but if you have a little slice of perfectly formed perfection, leave it be.
# Posted on August 18th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
I absolutely agree with Michael on this.
# Posted on August 19th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Yeah Michael, you have to be able to play first. And in order to be able to play you first have to do your time copying other people. But then once you can play there's little to be gained from copying, in terms of creativity, self-fulfilment and musicality. A lot of perfectly good musos do play and record other people's versions, but I think there's more to be gained by pushing yourself to come up with something unique that says something about *you* - like your own personal stamp.
# Posted on August 19th 2007 by Dow
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
When I was learning (aged 10) it was mostly from old dance band records (like the Gallowglass). My ear wasn't as educated as it is now, so what I couldn't pick out I made my best guess. I have been playing some of those tunes the same way now for 30-odd years (and yes, I mean odd) & have taught them to my kids the same way. I guess it's a case of 'technology' (well, a Fidelity record player anyway) breaking the Aural Tradition. But how long does it take for something to become the tradition.................???
# Posted on August 19th 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Doh!
SeanMc means the Gallowglass Céilí Band.
# Posted on August 19th 2007 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Wow! Who'd have thought it. Thanks MacCruiskeen, I'd just never have known without you pointing it out.
... mind you, I'm so busy keeping up to professional standard on my 15 million instruments in a tent on Ben Nevis (for the last 75 years) that I can tend to miss these things ...
# Posted on August 19th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
My Dad wrote a song called 'Queen of the May' (Maureen's Song) all about Padstow May Day. We played in Padstow quite a lot then & one night (when the song was a couple of years old) he was told "Ere boy, you've got the words wrong". My father's response was soon put down by him being told "You didn't write that, I remember my grandfather singing it".......and so it drifted in Padstow's tradition !!
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Ah yes, that mighty 'T' question. Sadly, my involvement in the music tends to wax & wane as time permits. Having bought a Fylde OM about 6 months ago, but being an old style (or is that traditional) mandoline player, I decided to hit the web for some free advice on how to play in this 'Nu Irish' way. Whilst there I came across a band called Kasir. Brilliant !!! A band of 3 youngsters playing with such spirit & surely full of Irish Tradition going back for generations. I'm still chewing my tongue having found out that they are 5/6 Danish (assuming Oisin's mother is Danish). I don't know where that leaves the Tradition question......(I still think they must be Irish...........)!
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Where the the hell did the 'e' at the end of mandolin come from.....I've only been playing on for about 34 years....or should that be yeares !!
# Posted on August 20th 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
So are these spellings Regional Versions, Artist interpretations, or just wrong.......!!!
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
We used to have a Portugese flat back mandola that my dad wanted tuned as mandolin...but the scale length was just a bit long so it was tuned 1 tone low. A great education for me because he played with a capo but I played it open. So it meant learning to play in keys a mandolin player would not normally play in, like E & B. Do you mean like the bottom end of a guitar? Which way across the strings are you working? Anyway, the OM is tuned an octave below a Mandloin. It is after all an Ocatve MANDOLIN.....& there lies a whole other debate.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Sorry Jusa Nutter Eejit...we seem to have highjacked & tangented this discussion somewhat........but that's just what happens to the music. A little bit of lateral improvisation, someone picks up on that, & it's not the tune it started out as !!
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Yes, just like the' lin but with a bigger body. Commonly & mistakenly called an Octave Mandola. In the theory of things:-
Mandolin, Mandola, Mandocello & Mandobass. The Octave Mandolin is tuned an octave lower than a mandolin & is in the family as the result of some hideous in-breeding. Maybe that's why you need 6 fingers to play one & you can ‘hear those banjos ringin' at the same time. By the way, can you play Duelin' Ban....no I won't even ask.....
Check out the Fylde website to see my baby strangely enough in Mandola section !!
www.fyldeguitars.com
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
God my keyboard skills get worserer (Cornish up-bringing!). I just noticed, worse than adding an 'e' I have now called it a mandloin.....didn't Tarzan wear one of those???? BTW, the last person that called me Dude was from Colorado....am I conversing with someone with a grasp of English.......or (an) American ??
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by SeanMc
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
These discussions are so interesting (except the personal snipes.) In our little recreational session groups (not very professional) we go around the circle and take turns picking the song. That person presides over it and may not choose the setting or version you like most or even considered most authentic, but the one who called the song decides. Everyone else joins in as they can and is nice, no grumbling or whiney comparing-just a "thank you, that was great, I like that version" when the song is over. If you want to do the song your way, choose and lead it at the next session. Of course, we are just for fun--nothing else at stake.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by gilesg
Re: Regional Versions, Artist interpretations or just wrong notes?
Hello gilesg, don't take personal snipes too seriously unless they question your parentage. Those who do otherwise….I shall say no more. As a guy of 16 stone (that's 224 pounds for those west of the Pond, 102kg for the rest of Europe) I can take as good as I give.
Don’t worry about professionalism……the only requirement of a session is ‘A good time had by all.’ (except for the guy who sat there with a copy of Mally’s 100…and told everyone they were playing it wrong). I would rather see a band that plays with heart & soul than one that only with technical perfection. (BTW, started writing in Word, then cut-&-paste into the discussion….my spolling should be butter now….but it doesn’t improve the content).
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by SeanMc