Ah ok, just as I thought. Though the price is quite good for a wooden flute even if it's crap... isn't it?
I just want something better then my Dixon polymer flute (not the 3 pieces one, the cheap one..) Do you think crappy rosewood pakistani flutes are better than my flute? (I've never tried any other than my polymer flute and everybody keeps saying it's a really crappy flute so I want something better now)
And another question. Wormdiet, do you know how I can get one of those reputable starter flutes from the internet easily (I'm a bit far from Ireland...) and cheap? No matter if used or new. Thanks.
"Do you think crappy rosewood pakistani flutes are better than my flute?"
It's highly unlikely. They are so simple that you might come across one that plays acceptably well. But you could also invest your money in lottery tickets - you might win that, too!
Look at what else the seller has on offer - the description that comes to my mind is "cheap tat".
I've tried many of those Pakistani flutes that students have brought in. They have all been exactly the same- rubbish. Don't waste your money. A plastic or bamboo flute made by a real flutemaker will be many times better. These Pakistani flutes are wheezy, the low notes are almost impossible to sound, and are outrageously out of tune.
Oh, by the way, these flutes can often be identified not only by their wood and general appearance, but also by misspellings in the listing, such as "tunning slide".
As stated above, there are several good beginner options.
Tipple is the best bang for the buck, but as you already have a working flute, you are likely looking for more of an upgrade.
The Forbes Delrin is getting pretty good reviews. It's a Pratten.
Dave Copley's new Delrin is getting quite nice reviews too. These are both new entries on the scene.
For Wood, Casey Burns Folk Flute is definately a step up from what you are using. If it's wood you are looking for, I'd take a gander at that.
I own a Desi Seery Pratten in Delrin and an M&E Delrin (I have wood allergies). Both are excellent instruments and I could recommend either with no reservations.
Was in a music shop last week and the owner handed me that same flute (can tell it is the same flute by the strange arrangement of the low C's and the unusual length between the Low D and the C# and the style of trim etc, etc,) to see what I thought. He said a company sent it to him as a sample in the hope of getting a big order.
It is the worst flute I have ever had in my hands. No effort at all, zero effort has been made to make this an instrument that makes music, and the crap sounds that blowing at this stick makes are in no way related to each other in any form of scale or tuning.
When buying a flute, just remember that the making of a good flute that can be sounded in tune with the required ease and volume made from a blackwood/boxwood etc, will require the type of craftmanship which will bring the price up to at least £250 Stg. This is a craft, there are no shortcuts. Plastics and Bamboos will be cheaper,but only buy anything cheeper from trusted craftsmen:
Plastics/synthetics: M&E, Des Seery, Doug Tipple
Bamboo: Billy Miller, Riannan, Olwell (not making any more but you may get second hand).
How do you know he already made up his mind? It sure didn't sound like it to me.
I'd be pretty sure that those two flutes are made by the same company, if not, probably by the same workers, definitely both came from Pakistan, and most definitely both flutes are rubbish, regardless of the wood.
I also took issue with your blanket statement that rosewood = bad, cocus, blackwood, delrin = good. Nevermind that blackwood is a rosewood, it just further shows you haven't a clue regarding flutes.
It's only doing a disservice to an interested beginner, pointing them towards a flute that will definitely be worse than the one they already have.
Buying a flute off ebay that has no maker's name should be strongly discouraged at all times.
Look, reread your first two posts. They come across as you saying that the flute you point to in ebay is a good flute for any beginner, not just someone who has "already made their mind up" about buying from ebay.
I maintain that it is not at all a good flute and that saying it is, is bad advice.
I think it's hasty to jump on the bandwagon and automatically judge all these 'pakistani' flutes as rubbish, just because everyone else does. If you can go to a music shop and try several .. find one you like - what's the harm in it? I met a chap this summer, played one and very nicely indeed.
I usually detect a certain amount of 'flute snobbery' whenever this topic arises. I hasten to add that I'm not attributing that to anyone who has commented above but it's a general vibe you get.
After all, probably 95% of the music instruments in the world probably emanate from China and 'Pakistan' etc. That is of course, a wild guess on my part and could be completely out of order. Anyone know a good figure?
"I think it's hasty to jump on the bandwagon and automatically judge all these 'pakistani' flutes as rubbish..."
They most certainly are rubbish. They don't play at all, never mind in tune. They are made neither of cocus nor rosewood. BTW, rosewood is fine for flutes. But the Pakistani flutes aren't rosewood, in any case.
You might find a playable one at a shop -- though I doubt it -- but you'll pay much more than if you got it thru' Ebay. And in that case why not buy a "real" flute from somebody like Casey Burns ($300) or David Copley, either of whom make great flutes that you'll find a joy to play.
If you are really skint then you might consider a $50 metal flute from a pawnshop.
Cocus says 'They most certainly are rubbish. They don't play at all, never mind in tune.' Don't be so dogmatic, Cocus - it's ridiculous making blanket statements like above.
I had the good fortune to do a class this year in Miltown with Catherine McEvoy and it so happens that one of t'other students had a keyless 'pakistani' flute in a light coloured wood - probably called Rosewood. Catherine commented more than once, that said student got a good tone from it and played pretty well in tune. She did qualify that by saying they were often unreliable and she recommended other makers flutes but hey!, the flute was working for this chap.
Now, I think I can take Catherine's comment on it at face value and I for one would trust her ear.
I believe the Dixon polymer flute will be better than a Pakistani flute from ebay. There's a sticky topic on Chiff & Fipple in the flute forum warning people about ebay Pakistani flutes.
You've already gotten the recommendations for good starter flutes, and those will not disappoint you. Keep an eye on the C&F flute forum because good flutes come up for sale all the time.
"once a reputation is established, the makers can simply rest on their laurels"
This is an insulting comment, implying as it does that all well known makers are resting on their laurels.
"Nowhere did i say it was a good flute,simply , that the wood used is , in my opinion, of a better quality"
No, what you did was point to an ebay auction with no clarifying information such as "the flute is likely crap, but the wood is better quality" or "this might be a better flute than the first one linked" or anything at all that might mitigate the implication that you are saying the flute you pointed to is a fine flute for a beginner.
Let me explain myself more fully: If even 1 in 4 flutes from Pakistan was a good flute (and this is much higher than I have any reason to believe) then it's still a bad route for a beginner for two major reasons: 1) A beginner has no way of assessing the quality of the flute, both before and after the purchase, and 2) There is no way to determine whether that flute is one of the 25% of "good" flutes.
"Try a reputable dealer , say hobgoblin, if you want cheaper stuff [from pakistan]but still with a quality control system you can trust"
Do not make the mistake of thinking that stores (such as Hobgoblin) actually do any quality control. They do not. They buy a flute from a catalog and have no control over what they get and little recourse for returning it. So they try to sell what they got and if someone like you says that paying more for the same chance as ebay for a possibly crappy flute is a good route, they'll take it, thinking they're getting a deal, when in reality they're getting a piece of flute-shaped wood. That's why your advice is awful. The only possible benefit to a store is that if you are in the area, you can go and see it. You might (maybe!) even be allowed to try it, although that's not a guarantee.
"...'real cocus wood?;Brya ebenus ? Fair enough, however what is known as cocus wood is a lovely timber, an can produce a tone every bit as beautiful as black wood"
As far as I can tell, that cheap-looking, heavily lacquered wood *you* call cocus is only called cocus wood by sellers on ebay. Oh, and you.
I wouldn't doubt that you can get the same tone out of an ebay special as you can out of a good flute.
Is it not a fact that the not so well off buy " big name " clothes & shoes @ rediculous prices to impress their friends, & the " better off " buy the identical item ( almost definitly made on the same machines ). for a tener( £ ). A very few bad Muslems / ??? is NOT all Muslims / ?? are bad ones.
I know a firm selling ( wholesale & retail ) Paki flutes for 10 years yet NEVER a complaint. A promotional free sample from another Sialkot maker Definitly NOT good. What is the diff. in production cost of the timber ( & the shipping ) & the workmanship ( @ £?? per hour against the F. East.
Never mind the redicolous critics who fail to note that in the EEC, to list a bit of cheap boxwood " stick " as ebony would cost a H... of money in fines. False description.
Look @ www.boorinwoodmusic.com.
The most important point all the critics missed was thae the Ebay flute was a 3 piece, which can cause tuning problems when playing with others / other instruments. You need a 4 piece. & a £75 in case flute wouldn't get any better if someone made minor cosmetic changes & said £400 MADE IN IRELAND
"The most important point all the critics missed was thae the Ebay flute was a 3 piece, which can cause tuning problems when playing with others / other instruments. You need a 4 piece"
Oh really? That's the first time I've ever heard that before!
I couldn't look at the website www.boorinwoodmusic.com for more than 30secs. It was giving me a headache. Something must be off in the coding at least for firefox.
Nico, why not try to out position a 4 piece flute for tuning against something a little too far off with your 3 p. You can only twist so far, as opposed to the slide as well as twist.
Sorry, I don't at all understand what you just wrote. Is english not your first language? Maybe you can right it in your first language and have it translated on the web somewhere.
Flutes on eBay
Flutes on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.ie/IRISH-FLUTE-FULLY-PLAYABLE-BRASS-TRIMMING-NICE-CASE-NEW_W0QQitemZ170138447153QQihZ007QQcategoryZ10183QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
What do you think? Crap?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Pere
Re: Flutes on eBay
these are made in Pakistan as are the bagpipes they sell, the pipes are rubbish so I would not hold out much for the flutes
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by kjm
Re: Flutes on eBay
Don't gamble.
If you want a starter flute,
Casey Burns Folk Flute
Dave Copley delrin
M & E (If you like weight, that is)
Tipple
and some others. These are all reputable, good flutes for not too much more than an ebay special.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Flutes on eBay
Ah ok, just as I thought. Though the price is quite good for a wooden flute even if it's crap... isn't it?
I just want something better then my Dixon polymer flute (not the 3 pieces one, the cheap one..) Do you think crappy rosewood pakistani flutes are better than my flute? (I've never tried any other than my polymer flute and everybody keeps saying it's a really crappy flute so I want something better now)
And another question. Wormdiet, do you know how I can get one of those reputable starter flutes from the internet easily (I'm a bit far from Ireland...) and cheap? No matter if used or new. Thanks.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Pere
Re: Flutes on eBay
"Do you think crappy rosewood pakistani flutes are better than my flute?"
It's highly unlikely. They are so simple that you might come across one that plays acceptably well. But you could also invest your money in lottery tickets - you might win that, too!
Look at what else the seller has on offer - the description that comes to my mind is "cheap tat".
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Alex Wilding
Re: Flutes on eBay
I've tried many of those Pakistani flutes that students have brought in. They have all been exactly the same- rubbish. Don't waste your money. A plastic or bamboo flute made by a real flutemaker will be many times better. These Pakistani flutes are wheezy, the low notes are almost impossible to sound, and are outrageously out of tune.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Flutes on eBay
Oh, by the way, these flutes can often be identified not only by their wood and general appearance, but also by misspellings in the listing, such as "tunning slide".
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Flutes on eBay
Go over to the Chiff & Fipple forum for lots of advice on recommended flutes. http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewforum.php?f=2
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by spindizzy
Re: Flutes on eBay
Ok thanks.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Pere
Re: Flutes on eBay
"cheap, cocus wood; ebay;; 220109544689 "
What awful advice! That flute is every bit as bad a choice as the first one, possibly more. It's not even real cocus wood!
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Nico
Re: Flutes on eBay
As stated above, there are several good beginner options.
Tipple is the best bang for the buck, but as you already have a working flute, you are likely looking for more of an upgrade.
The Forbes Delrin is getting pretty good reviews. It's a Pratten.
Dave Copley's new Delrin is getting quite nice reviews too. These are both new entries on the scene.
For Wood, Casey Burns Folk Flute is definately a step up from what you are using. If it's wood you are looking for, I'd take a gander at that.
I own a Desi Seery Pratten in Delrin and an M&E Delrin (I have wood allergies). Both are excellent instruments and I could recommend either with no reservations.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Ashkettle
Re: Flutes on eBay
Was in a music shop last week and the owner handed me that same flute (can tell it is the same flute by the strange arrangement of the low C's and the unusual length between the Low D and the C# and the style of trim etc, etc,) to see what I thought. He said a company sent it to him as a sample in the hope of getting a big order.
It is the worst flute I have ever had in my hands. No effort at all, zero effort has been made to make this an instrument that makes music, and the crap sounds that blowing at this stick makes are in no way related to each other in any form of scale or tuning.
When buying a flute, just remember that the making of a good flute that can be sounded in tune with the required ease and volume made from a blackwood/boxwood etc, will require the type of craftmanship which will bring the price up to at least £250 Stg. This is a craft, there are no shortcuts. Plastics and Bamboos will be cheaper,but only buy anything cheeper from trusted craftsmen:
Plastics/synthetics: M&E, Des Seery, Doug Tipple
Bamboo: Billy Miller, Riannan, Olwell (not making any more but you may get second hand).
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by proinsiasrua
Re: Flutes on eBay
PS
I gave the figure £250 as the De Keyser mopane sells for around £300 in Belfast and is a great flute for learners.
Forgot to mention, if you want a real instrument and you don't want to fork out, this is the job for you.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~hammie/practice.htm
looks like a metal tube, plays like a real flute.
But if you want something that looks like a flute and won't play, ebay is your man!
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by proinsiasrua
Re: Flutes on eBay
How do you know he already made up his mind? It sure didn't sound like it to me.
I'd be pretty sure that those two flutes are made by the same company, if not, probably by the same workers, definitely both came from Pakistan, and most definitely both flutes are rubbish, regardless of the wood.
I also took issue with your blanket statement that rosewood = bad, cocus, blackwood, delrin = good. Nevermind that blackwood is a rosewood, it just further shows you haven't a clue regarding flutes.
It's only doing a disservice to an interested beginner, pointing them towards a flute that will definitely be worse than the one they already have.
Buying a flute off ebay that has no maker's name should be strongly discouraged at all times.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Nico
Re: Flutes on eBay
Look, reread your first two posts. They come across as you saying that the flute you point to in ebay is a good flute for any beginner, not just someone who has "already made their mind up" about buying from ebay.
I maintain that it is not at all a good flute and that saying it is, is bad advice.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Nico
Re: Flutes on eBay
I think it's hasty to jump on the bandwagon and automatically judge all these 'pakistani' flutes as rubbish, just because everyone else does. If you can go to a music shop and try several .. find one you like - what's the harm in it? I met a chap this summer, played one and very nicely indeed.
I usually detect a certain amount of 'flute snobbery' whenever this topic arises. I hasten to add that I'm not attributing that to anyone who has commented above but it's a general vibe you get.
After all, probably 95% of the music instruments in the world probably emanate from China and 'Pakistan' etc. That is of course, a wild guess on my part and could be completely out of order. Anyone know a good figure?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Flutes on eBay
Of course, buying one on eBay is entirely different matter. Suppose you had to buy 6 or 7 to find one you like, the cost would add up pretty quickly.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Flutes on eBay
"I think it's hasty to jump on the bandwagon and automatically judge all these 'pakistani' flutes as rubbish..."
They most certainly are rubbish. They don't play at all, never mind in tune. They are made neither of cocus nor rosewood. BTW, rosewood is fine for flutes. But the Pakistani flutes aren't rosewood, in any case.
You might find a playable one at a shop -- though I doubt it -- but you'll pay much more than if you got it thru' Ebay. And in that case why not buy a "real" flute from somebody like Casey Burns ($300) or David Copley, either of whom make great flutes that you'll find a joy to play.
If you are really skint then you might consider a $50 metal flute from a pawnshop.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by David Levine
Re: Flutes on eBay
Kind of difficult to prove one's worth if you don;t bother listing your name (as a manufacturer) on an ebay listing.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Flutes on eBay
Cocus says 'They most certainly are rubbish. They don't play at all, never mind in tune.' Don't be so dogmatic, Cocus - it's ridiculous making blanket statements like above.
I had the good fortune to do a class this year in Miltown with Catherine McEvoy and it so happens that one of t'other students had a keyless 'pakistani' flute in a light coloured wood - probably called Rosewood. Catherine commented more than once, that said student got a good tone from it and played pretty well in tune. She did qualify that by saying they were often unreliable and she recommended other makers flutes but hey!, the flute was working for this chap.
Now, I think I can take Catherine's comment on it at face value and I for one would trust her ear.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Flutes on eBay
I believe the Dixon polymer flute will be better than a Pakistani flute from ebay. There's a sticky topic on Chiff & Fipple in the flute forum warning people about ebay Pakistani flutes.
You've already gotten the recommendations for good starter flutes, and those will not disappoint you. Keep an eye on the C&F flute forum because good flutes come up for sale all the time.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Flutes on eBay
Are you saying that Brian MacKay made this flute:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220109544689&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D220109544689%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1
That you endorse in your second post? Please prove it.
"once a reputation is established, the makers can simply rest on their laurels"
This is an insulting comment, implying as it does that all well known makers are resting on their laurels.
"Nowhere did i say it was a good flute,simply , that the wood used is , in my opinion, of a better quality"
No, what you did was point to an ebay auction with no clarifying information such as "the flute is likely crap, but the wood is better quality" or "this might be a better flute than the first one linked" or anything at all that might mitigate the implication that you are saying the flute you pointed to is a fine flute for a beginner.
Let me explain myself more fully: If even 1 in 4 flutes from Pakistan was a good flute (and this is much higher than I have any reason to believe) then it's still a bad route for a beginner for two major reasons: 1) A beginner has no way of assessing the quality of the flute, both before and after the purchase, and 2) There is no way to determine whether that flute is one of the 25% of "good" flutes.
"Try a reputable dealer , say hobgoblin, if you want cheaper stuff [from pakistan]but still with a quality control system you can trust"
Do not make the mistake of thinking that stores (such as Hobgoblin) actually do any quality control. They do not. They buy a flute from a catalog and have no control over what they get and little recourse for returning it. So they try to sell what they got and if someone like you says that paying more for the same chance as ebay for a possibly crappy flute is a good route, they'll take it, thinking they're getting a deal, when in reality they're getting a piece of flute-shaped wood. That's why your advice is awful. The only possible benefit to a store is that if you are in the area, you can go and see it. You might (maybe!) even be allowed to try it, although that's not a guarantee.
"...'real cocus wood?;Brya ebenus ? Fair enough, however what is known as cocus wood is a lovely timber, an can produce a tone every bit as beautiful as black wood"
As far as I can tell, that cheap-looking, heavily lacquered wood *you* call cocus is only called cocus wood by sellers on ebay. Oh, and you.
I wouldn't doubt that you can get the same tone out of an ebay special as you can out of a good flute.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Nico
Re: Flutes on eBay
Is it not a fact that the not so well off buy " big name " clothes & shoes @ rediculous prices to impress their friends, & the " better off " buy the identical item ( almost definitly made on the same machines ). for a tener( £ ). A very few bad Muslems / ??? is NOT all Muslims / ?? are bad ones.
I know a firm selling ( wholesale & retail ) Paki flutes for 10 years yet NEVER a complaint. A promotional free sample from another Sialkot maker Definitly NOT good. What is the diff. in production cost of the timber ( & the shipping ) & the workmanship ( @ £?? per hour against the F. East.
Never mind the redicolous critics who fail to note that in the EEC, to list a bit of cheap boxwood " stick " as ebony would cost a H... of money in fines. False description.
Look @ www.boorinwoodmusic.com.
The most important point all the critics missed was thae the Ebay flute was a 3 piece, which can cause tuning problems when playing with others / other instruments. You need a 4 piece. & a £75 in case flute wouldn't get any better if someone made minor cosmetic changes & said £400 MADE IN IRELAND
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by lenamore Man
Re: Flutes on eBay
"The most important point all the critics missed was thae the Ebay flute was a 3 piece, which can cause tuning problems when playing with others / other instruments. You need a 4 piece"
Oh really? That's the first time I've ever heard that before!
I guess this: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/images/Prat%20Cocus%20dark%20vert%201511.jpg
and this: http://homepage.eircom.net/~hammie/Group.gif must be unplayable in a session then, eh? They're only 3 pieces after all.
I couldn't look at the website www.boorinwoodmusic.com for more than 30secs. It was giving me a headache. Something must be off in the coding at least for firefox.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Nico
Re: Flutes on eBay
Nico, why not try to out position a 4 piece flute for tuning against something a little too far off with your 3 p. You can only twist so far, as opposed to the slide as well as twist.
# Posted on August 18th 2007 by lenamore Man
Re: Flutes on eBay
Sorry, I don't at all understand what you just wrote. Is english not your first language? Maybe you can right it in your first language and have it translated on the web somewhere.
# Posted on August 18th 2007 by Nico
Re: Flutes on eBay
right = write
I need tea.
# Posted on August 18th 2007 by Nico