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"crossing over" from strict classical violin to fiddle - help!
"crossing over" from strict classical violin to fiddle - help!
I am a college student who is trying to play fiddle after 10 years of classical violin. I have alot of books on fiddle music but I can't seem to let go of the classical "rules." In particular, rolls, cuts, and slides are slipping me up because they mess up everything I learned about timing. Does anyone have any ideas for where to go to get some help on this stuff and/or other things like the strange bowing patterns?
Re: "crossing over" from strict classical violin to fiddle - help!
I'm sure it's been said before, but LISTEN, LISTEN and listen. Find some sessions to sit in on, buy CDS, go to concerts. Take the pressure off yourself and sit back and LISTEN.
Can I suggest that you look at Summer schools in Ireland at the Willie Clancy Week in Milltown Malbay or any of the excellent summer schools ran by Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, (Fleadh Nua in May or Scoil Eigse in August for example).
There is also a book on fiddle styles, (Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing by David Lyth) obtainable from www.Comhaltas.com. Also listen to traditional music on CD from Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, Brian Rooney, or Oisin MacDiarmada. There are many other well known traditional fiddle players.
It might help to learn a few simple tunes and play them on the whistle first. Then you can try out your timing, ornamentation, etc. and not get in conflict with your violin techniques. Take it slowly.
Secondly, try and change the way you hold your violin. Move your right hand a bit higher up the bow.
Thirdly, forget your left-hand vibrato completely. Try not to sound "pretty". And, as can't be repeated often enough, sit, watch and listen.
Hello there !
that's right !! TOTAL IMMERSION
Fiddle or pipes or whistle or any instrument : you have to understand the language of trad and the instrument is just a question of technic. Learning trad music is not learning an instrument, it is a kind of "immaterialism" (you can learn trad Ceol without learning an instrument, what do you think ?)
I think you have to listen and understand what traditionnal music means
Try the lilt (the diddling) : that's a very good way to get the pulse+swing of a tune
Furthermore if you have the passion, it's easier to learn
But listen and think about traditionnal music (Is it a way of life, too ? ...that's an other discussion)
Flash, another good way for people who already have experience on their instrument, a vocabulary, as it were, is to, in between listening and listening and listening, actually play with a kind and patient soul who is also a good player. Try and play how they play, match their timing, make your instrument's voice work with theirs. But mainly -- listen. Lots. Have fun!
Omigod!! - what a contrast from Andee's recent horror story! The classical woman violin player - yeah?
Anyway welcome to the ITM OCDP's.
Listen x 3 is, of course, right, or maybe {listen then try out some little fragment which grabbed you} x 3, ie make it interactive. You could always try the BBC's Virtual Session:
Zina - sorry, but do you get kind patient good players on tap in your manor, cos we don't!
You're probably referring to someone like yourself, and they are heaven-sent. That said, our session players always welcome *genuine* learners, who can hang on a bit, till we've done our thang.
So flashb - good luck - there's loads of links from this site also.
I dont know how other fiddlers feel but i spent a lot of time and a number of bridges setting up
my fiddle so it would respond better to fiddle music( ITM and other) Now when i pick up a
classical violin the economy of movement is not there.
This may be something you could consider.
As a classical flute player I find I have difficulty playing .... well no... actually learining Irish music on the flute. If I look at the notes, the tune is easy to play, so I don't have to work at it. Learning by ear helps but I find I don't remember tunes as well on the flute. I figure them out better because my ear was trained to hear those notes on the flute. When I started playing Irish music, it was on the fiddle and since I didn't know any other way of playing... that's how I play fiddle. Just a long winded way of suggesting you learn the feel of the music on an instrument that you are not so familiar with. I'd also suggest watching an Irish dance class or two. That really helped me to understand. Now when I learn a new tune, I figure the notes out on flute, figure the feel out on fiddle and then... totally forget how to play it on flute.
Danny, yes, we do have them around here, those both good and kind, patient players, but sometimes they're also impatient at other times, so you have to pick your time wisely -- or at least rotate so no one's well of patience runs dry! I'd imagine it's much the same everywhere. Heh.
Come to think of it, some of the good guys down here are generous with advice to newcomers into the scene, but prioritised after they'd play their tunes.
All I meant was you can't expect someone to give up a lot of time for free.
Get as much exposure to traditional music as possible: buy cds, go to music camps, drop in at a session near your area (Look under the session page @ this site to find one), or find a pub that has an irish band playing at it and talk to the musicians afterword, I'm sure they would love to give you a tip or two. You could also find a fiddle teacher. Good Luck!! You've made a godd desicion trying out ITM! Get ready to have loads of fun!!
When I was small it was the coolest thing to try to copy the older fiddlers; hold my bow halfway up and play my fiddle with the chin rest in the crook of my elbow. ARGH! I sounded horrible!
The guys you might see doing that sound good because that's how they've learnt to play. It's perfectly fine to play with a "classical" hold. Many fiddlers do. Don't try to contort yourself; less pain, more music. Always good. =)
Flash -
I too have just come out of the classical world. And was it worth it!! Not to sound too redundant, but listening is key. Finding good recordings of tunes you want to learn or ar learning is a brilliant way of learning, but without the frustration that tons of practicing will sometimes bring.
That said...
I have a great friend who's a piper and that's how I got started into Irish music in the first place. And that is one way I keep my sanity. Playing by yourself is never the best way to go about things. It gets frustrating too quickly. Another person can easily take the pressure off and make you realize that the music is supposed to be fun... not work... With classical music, I felt that the music was a lot of work... now, it's not work. I play because it's fun.
This may seem a lot of babble. But in short... relax, listen, have fun, find a more experienced player to play along with... Good luck!
No vibrato? No VIBRATO? Gasp! How can I survive without my precious vibrato? This is speaking suicide to my classical rule loving heart. Oh well. Pain is good, extreme pain is extremely good, as my dad says. And in the words of my mum, it takes to pain to be beatifull (notice I did not say "pretty") Thanks for all your help, you people are remarkably nice to me and I don't know any of you. For all any of us know, we might be a bunch of axe-murderers who have keep dead chickens in the boot instead of a violin and we just post comments online and say we play violin for the heck of it......(or whatever instrument) Forgive my funny sense of humor, I am college student and higher education does funny things to one's brain........
Can I suggest buying a whistle and learning some tunes on it. This is probably technically the easiest instrument on which to play the standard forms of Irish ornamentation. The fingering is similar to that of the uillean pipes, which is where much of the fiddle ornamentation is derived from. So, if you can first develop a feel for the ornamentation on the whistle, you can then develop the necessary techniques on the fiddle. You might even try leaving the fiddle altogether for a few months, so that when you come back to it, your classical technique is a bit 'rusty' and you can learn new techniques without automatically reverting to what you already know.
Sorry, you say you are a college student, but you don't say what you are studying. If you are studying classical violin at college, then abandoning your fiddle for a few months is not to be recommended.
I am a double major. I major in Graphic Design to be pratical and feed myself when I get out of college, and I major in Art/Illustration to satisfay my artistic longings. My college doesn't have a strings program....just piano and voice. There are a couple violin teachers in the area but they only take beginning students. I have no wheels, so.........I am hoping a good violinist will emerge out of the woodwork and mentor me or something. I took up violin when I was 9 b/c it was one of the hardest instruments I could find and I didn't want to be like everyone else I knew and just take piano. I guess there is just something about the violin that makes it worth studying on my own time and not get credit or anything. Being able to play is a reward in itself, I guess. I play all the time, especially when I am stressed out, it's my number one favorite thing to do! (play violin, I mean, not be stressed, lol)
If that's the case, then maybe the whistle would be too easy for you... But I've noticed on visits to Ireland, and playing with 'real' Irish players elsewhere, that a great many of them, aside from their 'main' instruments, are also very competent on the whistle. Often this would be the instrument they started on.
Of course, there is a difference in the case of somebody like yourself, in that you are already a musician, but playing a completely different instrument can give you a different perspective on the music.
Actually, I was thinking a whistle would be a hard thing to learn....isn't it all about a new set of fingering to learn? What type of time committment would I need to give a whistle a fair go?
Let's put it this way -- I can pick my way through a tune on the whistle without knowing anything about it, and I'm no wind player. I dunno if it's still true, but once upon a time, every Irish school kid had to learn a tune on the whistle...
Now, if you want to sound like one of the great whistlers, then you've got a bigger time commitment.
"crossing over" from strict classical violin to fiddle - help!
"crossing over" from strict classical violin to fiddle - help!
I am a college student who is trying to play fiddle after 10 years of classical violin. I have alot of books on fiddle music but I can't seem to let go of the classical "rules." In particular, rolls, cuts, and slides are slipping me up because they mess up everything I learned about timing. Does anyone have any ideas for where to go to get some help on this stuff and/or other things like the strange bowing patterns?
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by flashbaxz
Re: "crossing over" from strict classical violin to fiddle - help!
I'm sure it's been said before, but LISTEN, LISTEN and listen. Find some sessions to sit in on, buy CDS, go to concerts. Take the pressure off yourself and sit back and LISTEN.
Total immersion. The only way in my view.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Susie-Lee
Re: Crossing Over.........
Can I suggest that you look at Summer schools in Ireland at the Willie Clancy Week in Milltown Malbay or any of the excellent summer schools ran by Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, (Fleadh Nua in May or Scoil Eigse in August for example).
There is also a book on fiddle styles, (Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing by David Lyth) obtainable from www.Comhaltas.com. Also listen to traditional music on CD from Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, Brian Rooney, or Oisin MacDiarmada. There are many other well known traditional fiddle players.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Bannerman
Re:
It might help to learn a few simple tunes and play them on the whistle first. Then you can try out your timing, ornamentation, etc. and not get in conflict with your violin techniques. Take it slowly.
Secondly, try and change the way you hold your violin. Move your right hand a bit higher up the bow.
Thirdly, forget your left-hand vibrato completely. Try not to sound "pretty". And, as can't be repeated often enough, sit, watch and listen.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by kuec
Total immersion
Hello there !
that's right !! TOTAL IMMERSION
Fiddle or pipes or whistle or any instrument : you have to understand the language of trad and the instrument is just a question of technic. Learning trad music is not learning an instrument, it is a kind of "immaterialism" (you can learn trad Ceol without learning an instrument, what do you think ?)
I think you have to listen and understand what traditionnal music means
Try the lilt (the diddling) : that's a very good way to get the pulse+swing of a tune
Furthermore if you have the passion, it's easier to learn
But listen and think about traditionnal music (Is it a way of life, too ? ...that's an other discussion)
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by kolaz333
Re:
Flash, another good way for people who already have experience on their instrument, a vocabulary, as it were, is to, in between listening and listening and listening, actually play with a kind and patient soul who is also a good player. Try and play how they play, match their timing, make your instrument's voice work with theirs. But mainly -- listen. Lots. Have fun!
Zina
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re:
Omigod!! - what a contrast from Andee's recent horror story! The classical woman violin player - yeah?
Anyway welcome to the ITM OCDP's.
Listen x 3 is, of course, right, or maybe {listen then try out some little fragment which grabbed you} x 3, ie make it interactive. You could always try the BBC's Virtual Session:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/folk/acoustic_club/swf/02.html
Zina - sorry, but do you get kind patient good players on tap in your manor, cos we don't!
You're probably referring to someone like yourself, and they are heaven-sent. That said, our session players always welcome *genuine* learners, who can hang on a bit, till we've done our thang.
So flashb - good luck - there's loads of links from this site also.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Nick Splease
Re:
I dont know how other fiddlers feel but i spent a lot of time and a number of bridges setting up
my fiddle so it would respond better to fiddle music( ITM and other) Now when i pick up a
classical violin the economy of movement is not there.
This may be something you could consider.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Bryan
Re:
As a classical flute player I find I have difficulty playing .... well no... actually learining Irish music on the flute. If I look at the notes, the tune is easy to play, so I don't have to work at it. Learning by ear helps but I find I don't remember tunes as well on the flute. I figure them out better because my ear was trained to hear those notes on the flute. When I started playing Irish music, it was on the fiddle and since I didn't know any other way of playing... that's how I play fiddle. Just a long winded way of suggesting you learn the feel of the music on an instrument that you are not so familiar with. I'd also suggest watching an Irish dance class or two. That really helped me to understand. Now when I learn a new tune, I figure the notes out on flute, figure the feel out on fiddle and then... totally forget how to play it on flute.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by ANNY
Re:
Danny, yes, we do have them around here, those both good and kind, patient players, but sometimes they're also impatient at other times, so you have to pick your time wisely -- or at least rotate so no one's well of patience runs dry!
I'd imagine it's much the same everywhere. Heh.
zls
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re:
Come to think of it, some of the good guys down here are generous with advice to newcomers into the scene, but prioritised after they'd play their tunes.
All I meant was you can't expect someone to give up a lot of time for free.
# Posted on March 8th 2003 by Nick Splease
Re:
True there, Danny. I guess I'd offer to pay them for a lesson if it went on more than once!
zls
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re:
Get as much exposure to traditional music as possible: buy cds, go to music camps, drop in at a session near your area (Look under the session page @ this site to find one), or find a pub that has an irish band playing at it and talk to the musicians afterword, I'm sure they would love to give you a tip or two. You could also find a fiddle teacher. Good Luck!! You've made a godd desicion trying out ITM! Get ready to have loads of fun!!
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Kallie
Re:
~oops, at least I've the right discussion now =)
When I was small it was the coolest thing to try to copy the older fiddlers; hold my bow halfway up and play my fiddle with the chin rest in the crook of my elbow. ARGH! I sounded horrible!
The guys you might see doing that sound good because that's how they've learnt to play. It's perfectly fine to play with a "classical" hold. Many fiddlers do. Don't try to contort yourself; less pain, more music. Always good. =)
~Cait
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by Caitriona
Re:
Flash -
I too have just come out of the classical world. And was it worth it!! Not to sound too redundant, but listening is key. Finding good recordings of tunes you want to learn or ar learning is a brilliant way of learning, but without the frustration that tons of practicing will sometimes bring.
That said...
I have a great friend who's a piper and that's how I got started into Irish music in the first place. And that is one way I keep my sanity. Playing by yourself is never the best way to go about things. It gets frustrating too quickly. Another person can easily take the pressure off and make you realize that the music is supposed to be fun... not work... With classical music, I felt that the music was a lot of work... now, it's not work. I play because it's fun.
This may seem a lot of babble. But in short... relax, listen, have fun, find a more experienced player to play along with... Good luck!
Alisha
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by scaryakgrl
Re:
No vibrato? No VIBRATO? Gasp! How can I survive without my precious vibrato? This is speaking suicide to my classical rule loving heart. Oh well. Pain is good, extreme pain is extremely good, as my dad says. And in the words of my mum, it takes to pain to be beatifull (notice I did not say "pretty") Thanks for all your help, you people are remarkably nice to me and I don't know any of you. For all any of us know, we might be a bunch of axe-murderers who have keep dead chickens in the boot instead of a violin and we just post comments online and say we play violin for the heck of it......(or whatever instrument) Forgive my funny sense of humor, I am college student and higher education does funny things to one's brain........
# Posted on March 9th 2003 by flashbaxz
Re:
Can I suggest buying a whistle and learning some tunes on it. This is probably technically the easiest instrument on which to play the standard forms of Irish ornamentation. The fingering is similar to that of the uillean pipes, which is where much of the fiddle ornamentation is derived from. So, if you can first develop a feel for the ornamentation on the whistle, you can then develop the necessary techniques on the fiddle. You might even try leaving the fiddle altogether for a few months, so that when you come back to it, your classical technique is a bit 'rusty' and you can learn new techniques without automatically reverting to what you already know.
Just a theory.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re:
Sorry, you say you are a college student, but you don't say what you are studying. If you are studying classical violin at college, then abandoning your fiddle for a few months is not to be recommended.
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re:
I am a double major. I major in Graphic Design to be pratical and feed myself when I get out of college, and I major in Art/Illustration to satisfay my artistic longings. My college doesn't have a strings program....just piano and voice. There are a couple violin teachers in the area but they only take beginning students. I have no wheels, so.........I am hoping a good violinist will emerge out of the woodwork and mentor me or something. I took up violin when I was 9 b/c it was one of the hardest instruments I could find and I didn't want to be like everyone else I knew and just take piano. I guess there is just something about the violin that makes it worth studying on my own time and not get credit or anything. Being able to play is a reward in itself, I guess. I play all the time, especially when I am stressed out, it's my number one favorite thing to do! (play violin, I mean, not be stressed, lol)
# Posted on March 10th 2003 by flashbaxz
Re:
If that's the case, then maybe the whistle would be too easy for you... But I've noticed on visits to Ireland, and playing with 'real' Irish players elsewhere, that a great many of them, aside from their 'main' instruments, are also very competent on the whistle. Often this would be the instrument they started on.
Of course, there is a difference in the case of somebody like yourself, in that you are already a musician, but playing a completely different instrument can give you a different perspective on the music.
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re:
Actually, I was thinking a whistle would be a hard thing to learn....isn't it all about a new set of fingering to learn? What type of time committment would I need to give a whistle a fair go?
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by flashbaxz
Re:
Let's put it this way -- I can pick my way through a tune on the whistle without knowing anything about it, and I'm no wind player. I dunno if it's still true, but once upon a time, every Irish school kid had to learn a tune on the whistle...
Now, if you want to sound like one of the great whistlers, then you've got a bigger time commitment.
Off to do a show --
zls
# Posted on March 11th 2003 by Zina Lee