I'm in the market right now for a new fiddle, and unfortunetly it wont be from my local fiddle shop.
When my Mum and I went to there, I brought my old violin to be inspected and to get an estimate on how much he would give us for a trade in. When we bought the violin from him 6 years ago, my parents paid over $300 for it. When we went in the other day, he said he would only pay $100 for it because it's not worth that much to him. My violin was in excellent condition BTW. He also told us that Nagoya Suzuki's aren't known for having good tone. My parents and I are thinking, "Hmmm... he never told us that when we bought it from him 6 years ago." So now we are a little leary of him.
So now I'm checking out Steve's fiddles from Gianna Violins because I've heard a lot of good things about him and his instruments from fiddleforum.com. I'm an intermediate player, and I can't afford to spend a lot of money. I was thinking either the Shenandoah or the Cumberland. Anyone have any experience with either of these instruments? I'm not quite sure which one to pick. I'll probably get a chance to talk to Steve on Friday.
Almost all reputable Violin dealers (luthiers, not "fiddle shops") will take a 100% trade up value...always ask this..stear clear of those who will not ..give him a hard time...violin dealers ("fiddle shops" ) are like horse thieves...give 'em a bath, put a little weight on 'em...don't take 'em back....RUN AWAY
that said, 300.00 is really not a lot in the fiddle world...sell it on ebay or use it as a spare...
steve has a good reputation, and as far as I know, is an honest fellow...I would trust him, as far as "internet sales" go....
if you know how much you want to spend, I can definitely recommend some folks I know around here...
personally, I would not buy a violin that I have not played, however I also realize that may be a bit difficult...
Well, I'm going to sell my old violin in a local swap and sell it guide. School around here is going to start very soon, and there'll be lot of parents looking for new instruments for their kids.
I know in the best of situations, playing the istrument in person is best. But unfortunetly for me, other violion shops are quite a drive.
Since I've heard so many wonderful things about Gianna's, the risk seems to be on the low side.
I do agree that most shops will give you what you paid for your fiddle on a tradeup. (Assumption being you bought it there of course.)
There's something to be said about taking it to someone else for a good setup a try it with some good strings to make sure you're getting everything you can out of it. If you've already done this, and you still want something more, you're not alone. I was real happy with my fiddle until I played a few others that belonged to friends of mine. There is a lot more to it than JUST setup and strings.
For the money you're going to spend, I think it would be worth a trip to find a shop where you could play the fiddles. Make sure you take your fiddle and bow unless you're wanting to buy another. Play plenty of fiddles with your bow. I've liked the sound of some of the fiddles I've played and then found out I was playing a $3,000 bow. Once you find the one you like, play your fiddle and make sure it's what you want.
Chances are when you find the right fiddle, you'll know it when you draw the first 1/2 inch on the bow.
If you ever find you way to Éire you should contact Micheal Allen. He makes really beautiful fiddles and hes prices are unbelievably resonable.
He's a legend.
Worse things than being a born again capitalist ? Maybe, Michael, you could tell me what they are. I suppose a born again christian might come close.......or.....a supporter of dubyas immoral occupation of Iraq......or......a supporter of englands illegal occupation of 6 Irish Counties.
Well, if you insist.... I'm off to see The Rolling Stones at Slane on Saturday and Frankie Gavin is on the bill (honest, check it out). For Saras benefit, I'm going to ask him about her purchasing predicament...... there, thats brought the thread nicely back on track.
Llig Leahcim: All contemporary Christian music is music that has a modern sound (not like the old hymns. very much like the music that non-christians listen to), with lyrics that praise God. There's nothing weird about it. Just a new way for Christians today to listen to music that worships God.
If you still don't understand, or just full of contempt for it, please refrain from your negative comments. That's all I'm asking. Thanks.
Please, I really want to understand this. So contemporary Christian music is just like regular music, except with words that praise god? So can it be any kind of music, like rap or death metal? But replacing the anti-scial violance with praising god? What if it's instrumental music?
Ayuh, that's right. There are many styles of comtemporary Christian music to fit all tastes of music. Not as much instrumental though. If you do find instumental music, it's usually a rendition of hymns.
Thanks for the link, that's interesting. What I'm wondering though, is what makes the music christian? Is it just the words? I mean, can you make any music christian music jest by changing the words to praise god?
No need to be sorry llig. God doesn't care about melody, it's the words that count. So yes, any music can be Christian by changing the words. In fact, some hymns where bar songs and were changed to hymns. One that comes to mind is the Battle Hymn of the Republic. I'm not sure, but I think it used to be Jo Brown's Body during the Civil War here in the USA.
Let me rephrase that. God likes music, and loves it whn we sing about him. Heck, the hole book of Psalms is songs! But I don't believe he thinks that one style is evil, and another holy.
"Sing and make music in your heart to the LORD,"
Ephesians 5:19b
So it's kind of like a reverse weapon thing where god (or his followers) appropriate any form of music and rather than expounding its evils, they make it their own?
Or is it a way for his followers to enjoy forms of muisc that they would otherwise be banned from, on moral grounds?
I'm interested in the concept that god is not interested in music. Surely he must have some interest in it to have invented it in the first place. And there must be a paradox with prayer. If god is only interested in the words, why sing his praises? Could it be that the actual music bit is only there for the enjoyment of the people? Would less people pray if there wasn't a tune to it?
Sorry for the confusion. God really does love music, and he did create it as a wonderful gift to his creation. My point was, God has no objection to what style of music you sing. I don't believe less people would pray if there wasn't a tune to it. There are many references in the Bible about music and singing. I'll have to dig out my dad's old concordance to look some of them up.
Well, I wouldn't call God "undiscerning", in the sense that He "doesn't care" but He made His creation very diverse, not just all one thing, so in the same way He enjoys it when we, as subcreators in His image, make diverse things. I think God cares very much that He has a daisy here and a violet there, but I don't think He prefers one over the other. He enjoys them both.
I don't know much about fiddles. But I wouldn't trust a guy like your local shopkeeper in ANY market.
I agree with Yeruvan. Here are some references from the good ol' book.
"Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the rock of our salvation. Let us come before him with thanksgiving and extol him with music and song."
Psalms 95:1-2
"Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things;
Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth, burst into jubilant song with music; make music to the LORD with the harp, with the harp and the sound of singing, with trumpets and the blast of the ram's horn- shout with joy before the LORD, the King. Let the sea resound, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it. Let the rivers clap their hands, let the mountains sing together for joy; let them sing before the LORD,"
Psalms 98:1a;4-9a
"My heart is steadfast, O God; I will sing and make music with all my soul. Awake, harp and lyre! I will awaken the dawn. I will praise you, O LORD, amoung the nations; I will sing of you amoung the peoples. For great is your love, higher than the heavens; your faithfulness reaches to the skies. be exalted, O God, above the heavens, and let your glory be over all the earth."
Psalms 108:1-5
"Praise the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. I will praise the LORD all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live."
Psalm 146:1-2
"Praise the LORD. How good it is to sing praises to our God, how pleasant and fitting to praise him!"
Psalm 147:1
"Praise the LORD. Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints. Let Israel rejoice in their Maker; let the people of Zion be glad in their King. Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp. For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation. Let the saints rejoice in this honor and sing for joy on their beds. May the praise of God be in their mouths"
Psalm 149:1-6a
"Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him woth the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD."
Psalms 150:3-6
Ok then, I think I'm getting somewhere. He does like music, but he is not at all bothered about the quality, so long as it's from the heart. i.e., he can discern good from bad, but he doesn't let that spoil his enjoyment of it. I suppose it goes some way towards explaining why christian music is so bad.
I thought some branches of Christianity positively "hated" instrumental music because 'music' was supposed to be used to sing the praises of the lord and obviously music without words didn't go very far towards realising this. As far as I remember this is the way instrumental music became equated with the devil. I may be wrong. I'm sure I read somewhere how the church had suppressed instrumental music - to the extent of actually confiscating instruments etc - for the aforementioned reasons. Nothing would surprise me regarding the church.
Ah yes, but it's proof that God does not like shakey eggs, or bodhrans as he doesn't ask for those to be played. Flutes and strings get a mention though, as do ramshorns. I wonder if back in the good old biblical times there was any eyeball rolling when someone turned up with a ramshorn?
Sorry about the delay, just got back from church. The definitive example of this contemporary stuff is a fantastic band called THE ALABAMA 3, led by the very reverend Dr. D. Wayne Love and worship at the presleytarian church of Elvis the devine - all true, check them out. One of the best bands I've ever seen live. What you mean.........they're being sarcastic.......oh ye have little faith..... have a sup from the old purple tin!
Pavlf- Where did you here that? I suppose its possibe that some (big emphasis on some) Christians may think that, but only the insane! Even most legalists don't believe that. The vast majority of Christians today don't believe in that rubbish.
True, I can't find anything on drums, but they do use other percussion instruments.
LOL, I'm sure there might have been a few eyerollers way back then when it came to ram's horns. They are hard on the ears.
Thanks for the info tradpiper. I'll check it out.
I read it. I'm not sure where though, but I assume it was a reputable source cos I never read rubbish
It isn't a present fact, it was an historical thing, it happened a long time ago. I don't think the church (any of them) hold this opinion any longer. I think it was most likely to have been the protestants who got in on this - they hated theatre too. Anyhow I'm pretty sure it had some effect on 'trad' musicians - especially in the states.
A bit of googling turns up plenty of stuff to back up what I partially remembered.
Instrumental music was intimately associated with pagan worship and was regarded, during Christian antiquity, as being at variance with the spirit of piety. Novatian complains that the holy instruments came to be prohibited “through the trickery of the devil” (De. spect. 3, Migne, PL, 4, 811). They were used as a magical means of warding off demons and appeasing the gods. Especially were the playing of flutes and the accompaniment of drums and zithers regarded as an expression of pagan worship; the former took place at all sacrifices in the temples of the Greeks and Romans, while the latter was used in the ancient mystery cults to inspire religious ecstasy. Clement of Alexandria was opposed to the use of the flute, because it recalls the cult of Dionysius and Cybele and results in an ecstatic condition, with which wild outbursts of passion were associated. St. Athanasius directs his attention against that instrumental music which is used at dances; St. Augustine, against instruments which recall the music of theatres. St. Jerome did not like to have Christian virgins even know the purpose of the lyre and the flute, for those instruments were used at that time by roving Syrian women as an accompaniment to their songs, which were in great part of an obscene character. Many Greek philosophers were also opposed to the noisy music of sacrifices, on the ground that it was unsuitable to an internal worship of God (as Philo, De special, leg. II, 193).
"David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals."
2 Samuel 6:5
I think the words of Douglas Adams are relevent here:
Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God.
The arguement goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
And there was another one that goes something like:
God is infallible.
To not exist is fallible.
Therefore god exists.
But both theists and atheists know that logic is not the argument to go down in the proof of their positions. The theist is well aware of the contradictions and inconsistencies in their holy books. And the atheist is well aware that logic to a theist is about as alien as colour to a blind man.
Theists and atheists constantly try to bully each other and in the long run it never helps. "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' " I'm staggered by the sheer nastiness of that.
I would be too - staggered that is - but have instead endeavoured to see fools in a more positive light. I don't honestly think Celtic Lass meant it in a consciously nasty way, the unconscious nastiness that is contained in such outpourings is generally something that has been passed along & institutionally imbibed and therefore seems natural & goes unnoticed.
It does seem that it stems from a sentiment of similar provenance to that which declares that music without words explicitly praising the lord is automatically in service to the master of darkness.
Hence my advice that anyone of strictly christian leanings ought to steer clear of instrumental traditional music and the fiddle in particular.
Yes, it's difficult Sara isn't it. I say delusional and you say fool. I say when you die you die. You say when I die I don't. It's a hopeless debacle of a conversation I've had hundreds of times. So concentrate on what we have in common. Instrumental music. Music with no words. Music that doesn't care what happens to you when you die. Music that doesn't praise anything except itself.
But music, to me, proves God. Look what the body is doing while playing. Fingers all individually controlled percisely. Foot tapping to the theory that there are 4 beats to a measure. Eyes looking around (see 'nother thread). Eyes blinking, rolling, watering, adjusting to light and dark, focusing. Playing one tune while considering the next. ears listening, the brain making sense of it, judging it to be good or bad. Looking at the clock, and interpreting that mere symbol as time. All this going on at once...and more. I could go on. How long would it take that eye alone to evolve thru chance? the hand that moves and feels? How long for the whole musician? Naw, God is known by his creations.
I recentle read about a famous old bible thumping free church minister in the Hebrides who gave a sermon decades ago about music. He was saying that fiddle music was bad because it encouraged people to dance and he meant to say that dancing was bad because it lead to "fornication". Unfortunately he got a bit carried away in his excitement and ended up saying that dancing was the "...next best thing to fornication...!"
>How long would it take that eye alone to evolve thru chance?
Millions and millions of years.
And since the planet Earth has been around for several thousand million years, it only needs an accumulation of millions and millions of chance mutations for it to happen.....God willing...snigger...
I wish we would have evolved in those millions and millions of years where we didn't need to sleep.... like plants. You would have thought THAT would have helped the survivability of the species. Or to be able to manufacture food from within like plants. I believe that plants decended from people.
Or maybe eyes in the BACK of our heads so we can see enemies coming or to see prey from all angles.
Or invisability,,,now that would have been the ultimate.
We sure have been wasting those millions and millions of years.
Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I'm in the market right now for a new fiddle, and unfortunetly it wont be from my local fiddle shop.
When my Mum and I went to there, I brought my old violin to be inspected and to get an estimate on how much he would give us for a trade in. When we bought the violin from him 6 years ago, my parents paid over $300 for it. When we went in the other day, he said he would only pay $100 for it because it's not worth that much to him. My violin was in excellent condition BTW. He also told us that Nagoya Suzuki's aren't known for having good tone. My parents and I are thinking, "Hmmm... he never told us that when we bought it from him 6 years ago." So now we are a little leary of him.
So now I'm checking out Steve's fiddles from Gianna Violins because I've heard a lot of good things about him and his instruments from fiddleforum.com. I'm an intermediate player, and I can't afford to spend a lot of money. I was thinking either the Shenandoah or the Cumberland. Anyone have any experience with either of these instruments? I'm not quite sure which one to pick. I'll probably get a chance to talk to Steve on Friday.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Maybe the guy in your local fiddle shop is a born again capitalist. Stop giving him such a hard time, there's worse things in the world.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Almost all reputable Violin dealers (luthiers, not "fiddle shops") will take a 100% trade up value...always ask this..stear clear of those who will not ..give him a hard time...violin dealers ("fiddle shops" ) are like horse thieves...give 'em a bath, put a little weight on 'em...don't take 'em back....RUN AWAY
that said, 300.00 is really not a lot in the fiddle world...sell it on ebay or use it as a spare...
steve has a good reputation, and as far as I know, is an honest fellow...I would trust him, as far as "internet sales" go....
if you know how much you want to spend, I can definitely recommend some folks I know around here...
personally, I would not buy a violin that I have not played, however I also realize that may be a bit difficult...
if you want, e-mail me at carrottop163atgmail.com
perhaps I can help, perhaps not....
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Well, I'm going to sell my old violin in a local swap and sell it guide. School around here is going to start very soon, and there'll be lot of parents looking for new instruments for their kids.
I know in the best of situations, playing the istrument in person is best. But unfortunetly for me, other violion shops are quite a drive.
Since I've heard so many wonderful things about Gianna's, the risk seems to be on the low side.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I do agree that most shops will give you what you paid for your fiddle on a tradeup. (Assumption being you bought it there of course.)
There's something to be said about taking it to someone else for a good setup a try it with some good strings to make sure you're getting everything you can out of it. If you've already done this, and you still want something more, you're not alone. I was real happy with my fiddle until I played a few others that belonged to friends of mine. There is a lot more to it than JUST setup and strings.
For the money you're going to spend, I think it would be worth a trip to find a shop where you could play the fiddles. Make sure you take your fiddle and bow unless you're wanting to buy another. Play plenty of fiddles with your bow. I've liked the sound of some of the fiddles I've played and then found out I was playing a $3,000 bow. Once you find the one you like, play your fiddle and make sure it's what you want.
Chances are when you find the right fiddle, you'll know it when you draw the first 1/2 inch on the bow.
Good luck!
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by nofrets
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
If you ever find you way to Éire you should contact Micheal Allen. He makes really beautiful fiddles and hes prices are unbelievably resonable.
He's a legend.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by session savage
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Worse things than being a born again capitalist ? Maybe, Michael, you could tell me what they are. I suppose a born again christian might come close.......or.....a supporter of dubyas immoral occupation of Iraq......or......a supporter of englands illegal occupation of 6 Irish Counties.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
And while we're at it, what the hell is "contemporary Christian music"?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
New age, its all the rage in Fermanagh. Happy clappers, brotherly love, Gerry and Ian kissing......I could go on....
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Oh! Please do ... (shudder)
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Well, if you insist.... I'm off to see The Rolling Stones at Slane on Saturday and Frankie Gavin is on the bill (honest, check it out). For Saras benefit, I'm going to ask him about her purchasing predicament...... there, thats brought the thread nicely back on track.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Slick link! You're not a local radio broadcaster are you?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I forgot to mention that the violin I'm playing now is a little 3/4, and I really need to be on a 4/4.
Thanks BTW for making fun of my faith.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Llig Leahcim: All contemporary Christian music is music that has a modern sound (not like the old hymns. very much like the music that non-christians listen to), with lyrics that praise God. There's nothing weird about it. Just a new way for Christians today to listen to music that worships God.
If you still don't understand, or just full of contempt for it, please refrain from your negative comments. That's all I'm asking. Thanks.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
'There's nothing weird about it.'
Well, I suppose there would be those that argue the contrary. That's all I am saying.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Please, I really want to understand this. So contemporary Christian music is just like regular music, except with words that praise god? So can it be any kind of music, like rap or death metal? But replacing the anti-scial violance with praising god? What if it's instrumental music?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Ayuh, that's right. There are many styles of comtemporary Christian music to fit all tastes of music. Not as much instrumental though. If you do find instumental music, it's usually a rendition of hymns.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Here is a link where you can check out all kinds of different Christian music. They even some Celtic music too.
http://www.christianbook.com/html/specialty/1002.html/561629418
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Thanks for the link, that's interesting. What I'm wondering though, is what makes the music christian? Is it just the words? I mean, can you make any music christian music jest by changing the words to praise god?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
sory, just
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
No need to be sorry llig. God doesn't care about melody, it's the words that count. So yes, any music can be Christian by changing the words. In fact, some hymns where bar songs and were changed to hymns. One that comes to mind is the Battle Hymn of the Republic. I'm not sure, but I think it used to be Jo Brown's Body during the Civil War here in the USA.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Sorry, I meant John Brown's Body. Here's an interesting link from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_Body
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
"God doesn't care about melody" -- ah, Celtic Lass, you're quite mistaken, there.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Let me rephrase that. God likes music, and loves it whn we sing about him. Heck, the hole book of Psalms is songs! But I don't believe he thinks that one style is evil, and another holy.
"Sing and make music in your heart to the LORD,"
Ephesians 5:19b
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Thanks Tradpiper.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
So it's kind of like a reverse weapon thing where god (or his followers) appropriate any form of music and rather than expounding its evils, they make it their own?
Or is it a way for his followers to enjoy forms of muisc that they would otherwise be banned from, on moral grounds?
I'm interested in the concept that god is not interested in music. Surely he must have some interest in it to have invented it in the first place. And there must be a paradox with prayer. If god is only interested in the words, why sing his praises? Could it be that the actual music bit is only there for the enjoyment of the people? Would less people pray if there wasn't a tune to it?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Sorry for the confusion. God really does love music, and he did create it as a wonderful gift to his creation. My point was, God has no objection to what style of music you sing. I don't believe less people would pray if there wasn't a tune to it. There are many references in the Bible about music and singing. I'll have to dig out my dad's old concordance to look some of them up.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
God can't exist, otherwise he wouldn't have allowed the invention of shaky eggs.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Wasn't the old saying 'Deartháir don phaidir an port' ?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Shaky eggs, like sin, are a direct result of the fall of Adam
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
And I think God plays the Harp....
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Right then, so he does like music, but he's utterly non discerning?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
As long as it's written with the right heart it's ok. If you want to listen to some for free try some Christian Radio:
www.ucb.co.uk/radio
Alternatively, you could always go up and ask him
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
PS - there's no return ticket for that trip.....
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
(this is thespoonman from c&f/pw)
Well, I wouldn't call God "undiscerning", in the sense that He "doesn't care" but He made His creation very diverse, not just all one thing, so in the same way He enjoys it when we, as subcreators in His image, make diverse things. I think God cares very much that He has a daisy here and a violet there, but I don't think He prefers one over the other. He enjoys them both.
I don't know much about fiddles. But I wouldn't trust a guy like your local shopkeeper in ANY market.
God bless,
Jacob
SSDSA
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Yeruvan
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
not prefering one thing over another is as good a definition of undescerning as I can find
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I thought the Devil had all the best tunes.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I have two sons, but I do not 'prefer' one over the other. That does not imply I am undiscerning.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by domhnall.
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Except if one was a teenager.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I agree with Yeruvan. Here are some references from the good ol' book.
"Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the rock of our salvation. Let us come before him with thanksgiving and extol him with music and song."
Psalms 95:1-2
"Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things;
Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth, burst into jubilant song with music; make music to the LORD with the harp, with the harp and the sound of singing, with trumpets and the blast of the ram's horn- shout with joy before the LORD, the King. Let the sea resound, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it. Let the rivers clap their hands, let the mountains sing together for joy; let them sing before the LORD,"
Psalms 98:1a;4-9a
"My heart is steadfast, O God; I will sing and make music with all my soul. Awake, harp and lyre! I will awaken the dawn. I will praise you, O LORD, amoung the nations; I will sing of you amoung the peoples. For great is your love, higher than the heavens; your faithfulness reaches to the skies. be exalted, O God, above the heavens, and let your glory be over all the earth."
Psalms 108:1-5
"Praise the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. I will praise the LORD all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live."
Psalm 146:1-2
"Praise the LORD. How good it is to sing praises to our God, how pleasant and fitting to praise him!"
Psalm 147:1
"Praise the LORD. Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints. Let Israel rejoice in their Maker; let the people of Zion be glad in their King. Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp. For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation. Let the saints rejoice in this honor and sing for joy on their beds. May the praise of God be in their mouths"
Psalm 149:1-6a
"Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, praise him woth the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD."
Psalms 150:3-6
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Ok then, I think I'm getting somewhere. He does like music, but he is not at all bothered about the quality, so long as it's from the heart. i.e., he can discern good from bad, but he doesn't let that spoil his enjoyment of it. I suppose it goes some way towards explaining why christian music is so bad.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
YAY! Success!
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
"I suppose it goes some way towards explaining why christian music is so bad."
Aww come on, you know it's not all that bad.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I never said it was all bad. JS Bach?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
The Romans had the right idea for dealing with Christians.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
tradpiper - there's probably a lot more than just that that we're in agreement with. As I said before, a bit of sarcasm can be a great catharsis.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I thought some branches of Christianity positively "hated" instrumental music because 'music' was supposed to be used to sing the praises of the lord and obviously music without words didn't go very far towards realising this. As far as I remember this is the way instrumental music became equated with the devil. I may be wrong. I'm sure I read somewhere how the church had suppressed instrumental music - to the extent of actually confiscating instruments etc - for the aforementioned reasons. Nothing would surprise me regarding the church.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Ah yes, but it's proof that God does not like shakey eggs, or bodhrans as he doesn't ask for those to be played. Flutes and strings get a mention though, as do ramshorns. I wonder if back in the good old biblical times there was any eyeball rolling when someone turned up with a ramshorn?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by bowburner
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Sorry about the delay, just got back from church. The definitive example of this contemporary stuff is a fantastic band called THE ALABAMA 3, led by the very reverend Dr. D. Wayne Love and worship at the presleytarian church of Elvis the devine - all true, check them out. One of the best bands I've ever seen live. What you mean.........they're being sarcastic.......oh ye have little faith..... have a sup from the old purple tin!
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Pavlf- Where did you here that? I suppose its possibe that some (big emphasis on some) Christians may think that, but only the insane! Even most legalists don't believe that. The vast majority of Christians today don't believe in that rubbish.
True, I can't find anything on drums, but they do use other percussion instruments.
LOL, I'm sure there might have been a few eyerollers way back then when it came to ram's horns. They are hard on the ears.
Thanks for the info tradpiper. I'll check it out.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I read it. I'm not sure where though, but I assume it was a reputable source cos I never read rubbish
It isn't a present fact, it was an historical thing, it happened a long time ago. I don't think the church (any of them) hold this opinion any longer. I think it was most likely to have been the protestants who got in on this - they hated theatre too. Anyhow I'm pretty sure it had some effect on 'trad' musicians - especially in the states.
A bit of googling turns up plenty of stuff to back up what I partially remembered.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
For eg found here:
http://www.cmri.org/08-ecc_chant_music.html
Instrumental music was intimately associated with pagan worship and was regarded, during Christian antiquity, as being at variance with the spirit of piety. Novatian complains that the holy instruments came to be prohibited “through the trickery of the devil” (De. spect. 3, Migne, PL, 4, 811). They were used as a magical means of warding off demons and appeasing the gods. Especially were the playing of flutes and the accompaniment of drums and zithers regarded as an expression of pagan worship; the former took place at all sacrifices in the temples of the Greeks and Romans, while the latter was used in the ancient mystery cults to inspire religious ecstasy. Clement of Alexandria was opposed to the use of the flute, because it recalls the cult of Dionysius and Cybele and results in an ecstatic condition, with which wild outbursts of passion were associated. St. Athanasius directs his attention against that instrumental music which is used at dances; St. Augustine, against instruments which recall the music of theatres. St. Jerome did not like to have Christian virgins even know the purpose of the lyre and the flute, for those instruments were used at that time by roving Syrian women as an accompaniment to their songs, which were in great part of an obscene character. Many Greek philosophers were also opposed to the noisy music of sacrifices, on the ground that it was unsuitable to an internal worship of God (as Philo, De special, leg. II, 193).
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Some good examples of percussion.
"David and the whole house of Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals."
2 Samuel 6:5
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Okay Pavlf. I thought you were referring to the present day.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
"Expressly forbidden are the rather noisy instruments, such as drums, cymbals, castanets and the like;"
hahaha that bit made me laugh - maybe they were onto something after all?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
hmmm god says one thing and his minions another .. thankfully we all know better nowadays eh?
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
LOL, maybe we are. Gee, I must be a pagan because I like the sound of a bodhran. :-p
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Yes, thank God we know better!
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I think the words of Douglas Adams are relevent here:
Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God.
The arguement goes something like this:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.
--The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
perfect!
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Yeah right.
God does give us proof that he exists, but only to a certain extent.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' "
Psalms 14:1a
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I am that fool.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
There might be, however, a Giant Flying Spaghetti Monster.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
And there was another one that goes something like:
God is infallible.
To not exist is fallible.
Therefore god exists.
But both theists and atheists know that logic is not the argument to go down in the proof of their positions. The theist is well aware of the contradictions and inconsistencies in their holy books. And the atheist is well aware that logic to a theist is about as alien as colour to a blind man.
Theists and atheists constantly try to bully each other and in the long run it never helps. "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' " I'm staggered by the sheer nastiness of that.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Sorry Llig. It's probably time to agree to disagree.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
BTW, if you think that is nasty, check out the book of Revelation and what happens to those who don't believe.
Sorry, time to end this thread.
Sara
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I would be too - staggered that is - but have instead endeavoured to see fools in a more positive light. I don't honestly think Celtic Lass meant it in a consciously nasty way, the unconscious nastiness that is contained in such outpourings is generally something that has been passed along & institutionally imbibed and therefore seems natural & goes unnoticed.
It does seem that it stems from a sentiment of similar provenance to that which declares that music without words explicitly praising the lord is automatically in service to the master of darkness.
Hence my advice that anyone of strictly christian leanings ought to steer clear of instrumental traditional music and the fiddle in particular.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Yes, it's difficult Sara isn't it. I say delusional and you say fool. I say when you die you die. You say when I die I don't. It's a hopeless debacle of a conversation I've had hundreds of times. So concentrate on what we have in common. Instrumental music. Music with no words. Music that doesn't care what happens to you when you die. Music that doesn't praise anything except itself.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Agreed.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
But music, to me, proves God. Look what the body is doing while playing. Fingers all individually controlled percisely. Foot tapping to the theory that there are 4 beats to a measure. Eyes looking around (see 'nother thread). Eyes blinking, rolling, watering, adjusting to light and dark, focusing. Playing one tune while considering the next. ears listening, the brain making sense of it, judging it to be good or bad. Looking at the clock, and interpreting that mere symbol as time. All this going on at once...and more. I could go on. How long would it take that eye alone to evolve thru chance? the hand that moves and feels? How long for the whole musician? Naw, God is known by his creations.
I have no opinion about fiddles.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I recentle read about a famous old bible thumping free church minister in the Hebrides who gave a sermon decades ago about music. He was saying that fiddle music was bad because it encouraged people to dance and he meant to say that dancing was bad because it lead to "fornication". Unfortunately he got a bit carried away in his excitement and ended up saying that dancing was the "...next best thing to fornication...!"
Now then KML, let's go find some kindling...
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Rhod
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
bloody typical, as soon as someone calls it a day, some eedjit shouts "But ..... "
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
>How long would it take that eye alone to evolve thru chance?
Millions and millions of years.
And since the planet Earth has been around for several thousand million years, it only needs an accumulation of millions and millions of chance mutations for it to happen.....God willing...snigger...
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I couldn't have said it better feardearg.
Here's an interesting article if any are interested in reading it.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp
Sara
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
My eminently sensible web browser crashed twice before allowing me to view that page. I consider myself saved
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by ...
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Sure it did.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Though I'm not Catholic, here's another interesting little article.
http://www.cfnews.org/Denk-ID.htm
Sara
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
I wish we would have evolved in those millions and millions of years where we didn't need to sleep.... like plants. You would have thought THAT would have helped the survivability of the species. Or to be able to manufacture food from within like plants. I believe that plants decended from people.
Or maybe eyes in the BACK of our heads so we can see enemies coming or to see prey from all angles.
Or invisability,,,now that would have been the ultimate.
We sure have been wasting those millions and millions of years.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
Hmm.. I'm not quite sure you've grasped the concepts of evolutionary theory feardearg. But don't worry, just keep playing the tunes, you'll be fine.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
KML, you are probably right. No buts this time.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Opinions wanted (fiddle related)
But......
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by bowburner