Are there any copyright restrictions on tunes submitted here on this sight or on those already submitted? What other restrictions may apply when using tunes professionally or in published documents? Just curious but with no current intentions.
Thanks
As for 'published documents' you can assume copyright of a particular notation rests with the person who made the notation. So you can just lift the tunes here and publish a tunebook.
Many copyrighted tunes will have that information in the 'comments', or at least the name of the composer. Most of us, if not all, try to show at least that much courtesy. I also try to seek the composer's permission, if known and if possible, before putting their tune on site here. I try, but not always successfully, especially if the tune has not been previously online, but even if it has...
Hi, just read the thread here, and needed to ask if there's a reliable (official) database to be found on the 'net regarding the copyright of Celtic tunes?
Fanning, those who are sticklers about copyright do the paperwork and there are several organizations that are used. In Canada, for likes of Jerry Holland. Brenda Stubbert, etc., there is SOCAN, The Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada:
For others, those that do their paperwork, like Jay Unger in New England, there'll be an equivalent organization, depending on what country your composer hails from. I know France has something, but there are also a number of folks that don't bother with the official paperwork and can count on publication for proof of origin.
I am 'aware', and I've come across these things a few times, but I am very anti-union and the like where 'trad' is concerned, the socialist in me, and not that far from what 'tradpiper' starts out with above, but not so 'exclusive' to want things preserved in amber, however pretty I might think the stuff is. What's preserved there is usually dead...
For some folks I've known all they really ever ask for is a little consideration and respect ~ 'credit' where it is due, and asking is always appreciated. That's why I think it is best, when the composer is living, to contact them if you've an itch to record something by them. Another avenue would be to contact someone in the country of interest who has copyrighted their music, and ask them what the national body is that you'd register your music with.
The paperwork doesn't have to be filed for someone to break copyright law and risk prosecution. Where there's a living source, whether it is to learn a tune or to cover your ass before recording something ~ the little bit of research and the consideration will usually see you right... Sorry I can't add more links, but the Canadian one will at least give you an idea, and there are a hell of a lot of tunes that have come from that part of the world, and still keep coming...
What I am gathering from the replies so far is that tunes presented on this site are not necessarily copyrighted and may or may not be "legally" here. This was more or less what I was trying to determine. Should an author of a presented tune discover it on this site will he/she have a legal right to sue for copyright violation? I would hate to see that happen since it would interfere with the pleasure we all do get from this site.
I think people here are over-simplifying the copyright issue.
Even if a tune is traditional and has a long history, a published setting or arrangement is likely copyrighted -- even if that setting is no different than one published elsewhere, or if you transcribe the setting by ear from a recording. I'm not a lawyer, but I've tangled with intellectual property law on a few occasions, and it seems to me that Jeremy puts himself at quite a bit of legal risk by publishing tunes that may be copyrighted -- the more so because he exerts active control over what appears on this site. (For that matter, Jeremy himself has posted tunes that are clearly copyrighted, e.g., http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/104. Whether he got permission for that I obviously don't know.)
I wanted to post the Peerless Hornpipe here the other day (to ask how to handle the accidentals in the B part, if anyone wants to answer but I refrained because the only ABC I could find was attributed to Cole's fiddle book and I didn't want to risk the copyright violation.
If I were Jeremy, I'd consult with a lawyer on the issue and post some sort of policy to the FAQ.
BTW, in case people aren't aware, the penalties for copyright infringement (in the US) can be severe.
For one instance of infringement, the copyright holder can elect to receive statutory damages of $750-$30K. If the infringement was committed willingly, the damages can rise to $150K. Note that these are statutory damages, so they have nothing to do with whether any harm was caused by the publication of the copyrighted material.
So basically, if you are going to post/add a tune to the site that you know is only on a certain artist's cd - make sure that the version you post on isn't exactly the same as the version on the cd/ or in the tunebook. I think that is the safest way round the issue.
What happens though if you learn a tune in a session from someone who got it off the composer's cd/tunebook and then you post it on 'the session'? How does that affect the copyright issues?
Also, what about all the tunes in the O'Neills collections etc? do you add those as O'Neill collected them, as you heard others play them, or as you play them?
"What happens though if you learn a tune in a session from someone who got it off the composer's cd/tunebook and then you post it on 'the session'? How does that affect the copyright issues?"
Again, I'm not a copyright lawyer, but the basic answer is "not at all." What's relevant is whether something is a copy, not how you happened to come by that copy (except for determining willful infringement, obviously).
It's worth looking the online lyrics and guitar tab databases, which are more public than the trad databases and so have already faced these issues.
The fact that actual manuscripts aren't reproduced (scanned) here at all is very good.
In general most sites claim that chord progressions alone can't be copyrighted, but I've never actually seen that in authoritative print. I'm sure it will depend on the lawyers and the judge if it comes down on you and the progression doesn't blantantly appear everywhere.
The music industry has been pretty successful at shutting down tab sites; I don't know if they've had to go to court over it or not. But the legal opinions I've seen seem to agree that tab is a protected derivative work, e.g.,
Upon further reflection, I notice something by it's absence.
We've all been going on about this, but srt19170 tells us about US law in detail, Ceolachan says the canadian database is sound, and I'm in France with an administration that's about as clear as mud on the subject.
How many of us are there here, and more importantly, in how many countries? The point here is that the law is substantially different in it's word and application in just the three countries mentionned in this thread.
Is there not a definitive database regarding rights attribution worldwide? And if so, where?!
I believe the servers for this website are located in the US. For that reason the most applicable laws are the US laws. It's unlikely the RIAA or similar organizations would go after an individual poster, but they could well decide to take action against this website.
That's certainly been their modus operandi against the tab sites, lyrics sites, etc.
Copyright to submitted tunes
Copyright to submitted tunes
Are there any copyright restrictions on tunes submitted here on this sight or on those already submitted? What other restrictions may apply when using tunes professionally or in published documents? Just curious but with no current intentions.
Thanks
# Posted on August 14th 2007 by billcampbell
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
As for 'published documents' you can assume copyright of a particular notation rests with the person who made the notation. So you can just lift the tunes here and publish a tunebook.
# Posted on August 14th 2007 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
Many copyrighted tunes will have that information in the 'comments', or at least the name of the composer. Most of us, if not all, try to show at least that much courtesy. I also try to seek the composer's permission, if known and if possible, before putting their tune on site here. I try, but not always successfully, especially if the tune has not been previously online, but even if it has...
# Posted on August 14th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
Hi, just read the thread here, and needed to ask if there's a reliable (official) database to be found on the 'net regarding the copyright of Celtic tunes?
I've been to the Fiddler's Companion "http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/FCfiles.html";,
I've bookmarked "http://www.irishtune.info/";,
"http://tunedb.woodenflute.com/tunedb/"; is also a good resource, but...
If you've ever lived in France, you'll have a clue as to just how officious the administration expects us to be with such considerations.
I've found the SACEM to be, far and wide, rather unreliable in the way of rights attributions in ITM. It tends to be a bit of a mess.
Has anyone got a good idea? I've read you in a lot of good threads Ceolachan, but do you have anything more precise lying around?
Cheers, L
# Posted on August 14th 2007 by Fanning
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
Fanning, those who are sticklers about copyright do the paperwork and there are several organizations that are used. In Canada, for likes of Jerry Holland. Brenda Stubbert, etc., there is SOCAN, The Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada:
http://www.socan.ca/
For others, those that do their paperwork, like Jay Unger in New England, there'll be an equivalent organization, depending on what country your composer hails from. I know France has something, but there are also a number of folks that don't bother with the official paperwork and can count on publication for proof of origin.
I am 'aware', and I've come across these things a few times, but I am very anti-union and the like where 'trad' is concerned, the socialist in me, and not that far from what 'tradpiper' starts out with above, but not so 'exclusive' to want things preserved in amber, however pretty I might think the stuff is. What's preserved there is usually dead...
For some folks I've known all they really ever ask for is a little consideration and respect ~ 'credit' where it is due, and asking is always appreciated. That's why I think it is best, when the composer is living, to contact them if you've an itch to record something by them. Another avenue would be to contact someone in the country of interest who has copyrighted their music, and ask them what the national body is that you'd register your music with.
The paperwork doesn't have to be filed for someone to break copyright law and risk prosecution. Where there's a living source, whether it is to learn a tune or to cover your ass before recording something ~ the little bit of research and the consideration will usually see you right... Sorry I can't add more links, but the Canadian one will at least give you an idea, and there are a hell of a lot of tunes that have come from that part of the world, and still keep coming...
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
What I am gathering from the replies so far is that tunes presented on this site are not necessarily copyrighted and may or may not be "legally" here. This was more or less what I was trying to determine. Should an author of a presented tune discover it on this site will he/she have a legal right to sue for copyright violation? I would hate to see that happen since it would interfere with the pleasure we all do get from this site.
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by billcampbell
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
A composer with a copyrighted tune on this site could legally
a) leave it alone
b) ask or demand that it be removed
c) sue to have it removed
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
Thanks for the sound advice Ceolachan, I shall see what I can see on the SOCAN's site.
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by Fanning
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
I think people here are over-simplifying the copyright issue.
but I refrained because the only ABC I could find was attributed to Cole's fiddle book and I didn't want to risk the copyright violation.
Even if a tune is traditional and has a long history, a published setting or arrangement is likely copyrighted -- even if that setting is no different than one published elsewhere, or if you transcribe the setting by ear from a recording. I'm not a lawyer, but I've tangled with intellectual property law on a few occasions, and it seems to me that Jeremy puts himself at quite a bit of legal risk by publishing tunes that may be copyrighted -- the more so because he exerts active control over what appears on this site. (For that matter, Jeremy himself has posted tunes that are clearly copyrighted, e.g., http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/104. Whether he got permission for that I obviously don't know.)
I wanted to post the Peerless Hornpipe here the other day (to ask how to handle the accidentals in the B part, if anyone wants to answer
If I were Jeremy, I'd consult with a lawyer on the issue and post some sort of policy to the FAQ.
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by srt19170
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
BTW, in case people aren't aware, the penalties for copyright infringement (in the US) can be severe.
For one instance of infringement, the copyright holder can elect to receive statutory damages of $750-$30K. If the infringement was committed willingly, the damages can rise to $150K. Note that these are statutory damages, so they have nothing to do with whether any harm was caused by the publication of the copyrighted material.
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by srt19170
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
So basically, if you are going to post/add a tune to the site that you know is only on a certain artist's cd - make sure that the version you post on isn't exactly the same as the version on the cd/ or in the tunebook. I think that is the safest way round the issue.
What happens though if you learn a tune in a session from someone who got it off the composer's cd/tunebook and then you post it on 'the session'? How does that affect the copyright issues?
Also, what about all the tunes in the O'Neills collections etc? do you add those as O'Neill collected them, as you heard others play them, or as you play them?
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by Harping McCartan
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
"What happens though if you learn a tune in a session from someone who got it off the composer's cd/tunebook and then you post it on 'the session'? How does that affect the copyright issues?"
Again, I'm not a copyright lawyer, but the basic answer is "not at all." What's relevant is whether something is a copy, not how you happened to come by that copy (except for determining willful infringement, obviously).
It's worth looking the online lyrics and guitar tab databases, which are more public than the trad databases and so have already faced these issues.
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by srt19170
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
Some US Law background reading:
http://www.pdinfo.com/
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/title17/
http://www.alankorn.com/articles/copyright_infringe.html
The fact that actual manuscripts aren't reproduced (scanned) here at all is very good.
In general most sites claim that chord progressions alone can't be copyrighted, but I've never actually seen that in authoritative print. I'm sure it will depend on the lawyers and the judge if it comes down on you and the progression doesn't blantantly appear everywhere.
# Posted on August 15th 2007 by monkey440
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
"The fact that actual manuscripts aren't reproduced (scanned) here at all is very good."
So if you re-type the latest Harry Potter it isn't copyright infringement? Sorry, the method of copying isn't relevant.
"In general most sites claim that chord progressions alone can't be copyrighted..."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=guitar+tab+copyrights&btnG=Google+Search
The music industry has been pretty successful at shutting down tab sites; I don't know if they've had to go to court over it or not. But the legal opinions I've seen seem to agree that tab is a protected derivative work, e.g.,
http://law.richmond.edu/jurispub/jpubsite/default.php?pageType=2&docId=463&docIssue=2007-03-25
It's really too bad that the Session buries stories because this is probably an issue that deserves some attention.
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by srt19170
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
Hallo all,
Upon further reflection, I notice something by it's absence.
We've all been going on about this, but srt19170 tells us about US law in detail, Ceolachan says the canadian database is sound, and I'm in France with an administration that's about as clear as mud on the subject.
How many of us are there here, and more importantly, in how many countries? The point here is that the law is substantially different in it's word and application in just the three countries mentionned in this thread.
Is there not a definitive database regarding rights attribution worldwide? And if so, where?!
# Posted on August 16th 2007 by Fanning
Re: Copyright to submitted tunes
I believe the servers for this website are located in the US. For that reason the most applicable laws are the US laws. It's unlikely the RIAA or similar organizations would go after an individual poster, but they could well decide to take action against this website.
That's certainly been their modus operandi against the tab sites, lyrics sites, etc.
# Posted on August 17th 2007 by srt19170