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Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
The new http://www.comhaltas.ie website has a great video selection, in case you haven't checked it out, and all of the new clips being added have mp3 files available as well.
I wanted to download some of the older ComhaltasLive programs as mp3s, and found a website that lets you download an mp3 file for any flash video online. There's no need to download buggy and spyware-ridden shareware media converters. I'll post the instructions here in case anyone else was wondering how to do this:
1. Open a particular video on comhaltas.ie.
2. Look at the source of the page and copy the address of the FLV file (i.e. http://media.comhaltas.ie/video/cl221/cl221_3_Med.flv). You can ignore the part of the URL past the "flv".
3. Go to http://media-convert.com/convert/
4. Choose "URL", paste the address of the FLV, and choose "Flash Video (.flv)" from the gigantic list of formats on the right (the option is near the top).
5. Choose "MPEG-1/2 Audio Layer 3 (.mp3) as your output format and click OK.
6. After a minute of downloading and processing, it'll give you a link to download the mp3 file.
Another question that seems to crop up fairly often is how to download the audio from a video on youtube.com. The process is the same. To find the address of the FLV file, just use this website: http://kej.tw/flvretriever/
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
thanks, ha, -i keep watching ernestine healy's trying to figure out her concertina rolls. i think hers are some of the loveliest around. i do the slap triplet but would like to add these to the mix, and they seem different from some of the other crans/rolls i've learned for concertina, but i can't figure out how....i love how they are very clean and fluttery....
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Here's how she does them. Say you're rolling an A (G row, first button, pull):
1. Play the A
2. Lift your finger
3. While your left finger is lifted, play two notes with your right hand. She uses the D (G row, second button, pull) then the D# (accidental row, second button, pull). This second note might be a C# on some layouts.
4. Play the A again.
I think this is one of the more standard methods. People phrase it differently, though. That's how hers can sound different from Padraig Rynne's, whose sound different from Michael O Raghallaigh.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
wow, thanks! that DOES seem like what michael says he does---but hers sound different in a way i really like.
ok, that looks like her jig roll, but for a long roll during a reel, where doing it all on the same note would look like A, AAAA, would she play the A twice first, or once at first but twice at the end? this is what i can't grasp in the reels on her video.....is she going,
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Devin that's a great piece of software on that site.
Thanks a million for posting that.
My only concern would be that somehow the downloaded mp3 at the end of the process might contain some bugs or spyware, but I guess you have checked that out already.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I think the structure of the rolls are all the same. The difference is mostly where you place the cuts within the note. Try to hold them off until the last third of the main note (if your note is a dotted quarter note).
Donough, I don't believe there's a way to inject spyware into an mp3 file.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
mcdevincabe
I know this is off topic but...
While your description of a roll sequence concurs with everything I have heard before I can't make it produce the sounds I hear from good players, including Ernestine.
When I do as you say I end up with either,
1)a sequence of notes in which the D,D# (in your example above) stand out as notes in their own right
2) if I shorten the notes they chirp very loudly and dominate the roll.
Further to this, the rolls in the comhaltas video sound like the note being rolled upon, A in your sequence above, is played three times in a triplet. The notes from the right hand don't really sound, they interrupt the left hand note in some way turning it into a triplet. And if you watch Ernestine's left hand fingers, hard to do as they are obscured, you could argue she does not lift the left finger while hitting the right hand notes.
If I try this I find that on the pull in particular I can create this affect, that the grace notes interrupt the "tonic" note and create rhythm in it.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying there is something going on I don't understand.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Concertina rolls are very difficult to pick up on by watching or listening to a video clip. You really have to have someone slow it down for you in person to understand them.
When you lift the finger on your left hand up, you don't need to take it off the button, just take off a bit of pressure to let the right hand notes break it up. The right hand notes need to be very percussive and if you play them fast enough, you can't really hear the exact pitches.
I learned how to do rolls from her and that's the most accurately I can describe it. It's all in how timing the lifting and the hitting properly and making the right hand notes short enough. It also helps to have a concertina with fast action so that all of the notes can sound quickly.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
The roll Devin describes is the same roll Noel Hill showed me ages ago. He told me you don't just hit the notes on the right hand, but rather "throw" your fingers at them. The idea is to creat an audio illusion that the note on the left hand is repeating rather than hearing the two right hand notes.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
this is princely of you to take these pains to lay it out. though, i must say, i'm with CAG, not that i think you are wrong, but for sure, there seems to be something a tad different in the video between the reel roll and the jig roll....i practiced your breakdown for quite a while last night and this morning, and what i'm getting is starting to sound kinda cool, but don't think it reproduces the reel pattern in the video. i've had rolls or crans broken down in workshops by gearoid, and i can do those pretty much as taught, but he plays the melody note twice at the end so you distribute the whole thing differently, and it's great but not the sound i'd be looking for in a roll, and ernestine's is. i listened to one of your cd clips and yours does indeed sound very nicely like ernestine's, though it was a jig and i think i get her jig roll. it's the reel where something is going on that i'm not grokking. perhaps, like you see, it is just the distribution.... but i'm going to keep messing iwth it, and many thanks!
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
that last ceemonster response was to devin's....but i'll bet the roll or cran i learned from gearoid is close to the noel one, and i can get it to sound much like gearoid taught it, but because he hits the melody note twice at the end, (or twice at the start) you do the cuts faster, which gives the sound described above as a "chirp" that dominates the roll, which is indeed what i hear noel & others doing, and it 's great, but not what the more streamlined effect i'm after---ernestine and i believe dympna are do something a tad different. it gives an effect that is more evenly distributed and though staccato, less staccato than michael o'r's, noel's or gearoid's. it doesn't have that "chirp", or what i call a !boing! noise....i'll just have to keep playing with it....
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Would the roll on A as described by Devin not be a tad difficult bearing in mind that you would be trying to use the second finger for both buttons if you are to play second button on accidental row or is the D# hit with the first finger or am I missing something here???
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Sorry, meant first button D# pull. Might be a C# on Jeffries layouts, though.
Although I sometimes vary what notes I hit depending on what left hand note I'm rolling. One example would be a high E on the G row. I roll that with an F natural and D# pull, since it makes it a more like a true roll.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
yes, i vary notes also, on box rolls as well.....it's that streamlined, fluttery rhythmic pattern of the ernestine ornament that i don't have yet......i usually tend to switch off between slap rolls and a simple same-note triplet accompanied by a cut inserted "behind" the triplet from the other side of the concertina, have been avoiding crans/rolls because i don't like the staccatissimo cran effect described above where the cuts "chirp really loudly and dominate the entire roll..." but i really like the ernestine one, and i'm gonna figure out how to get it eventually.....this has all been most fascinating.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
OK, to recap, the left hand note is only partially lifted while the two right hand notes are sounded. The right hand notes are made as short (not fast) as possible. No pitch is required from them, they either interrupt the left note to turn it into a triplet, or chirp, depending on whose style you are listening to. Does this sound right?
By the way, anyone know what sort of concertina Ernestine is playing?
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
cag, i believe that in the ernestine version, the cuts are given equal rhythmic value with the melody notes in tht roll---they do not sound like "grace notes" in that sense of slamming super-fast onto the melody note. they get even, equal space (even done quickly). with the "chirp"-sounding roll or cran, they are given less value than the repeated melody note, so you almost don't even hear them separately. they sound almost like a grace to a same-note triplet, but there are two of them, and that makes that chirp sound that i call, !boing! ironically, though i don't even like that effect that much, it has been much easier for me to do it or close to it, than the ernestine one....
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I need to state at the front of this I am a neophyte and will not be offended by opposition to these ideas.
I agree on the timing of the notes in the Ernestine version. However I notice you are seeing a difference in timing of notes that chirp and notes that don't. I think the chirp comes from the duration and force of the note, not how close it is to the notes around it, that is, how fast the sequence is played. It is not the speed of the notes as a group, but the duration and force of each note that makes the chirp.
To have another go in the hope of a better explanation, if you have a certain space available for a note within the rhythm, you can play the note to take up all the space, or you can play it shorter with a gap on each side, as in staccato. If you do this with a little bellows force the chirp will happen on any responsive instrument. Chirpy players like MOR seem to do this on their cuts and any other time they want to make a rhythmic point. To chirp a note throw your finger at it on an arc that will have it fall off the button when it is only 3/4 depressed, with a lot of bellows pressure. My understanding of this comes from Dow.
I do find myself wondering if the roll effect might differ even for good players depending on the responsiveness of the instrument they are playing. Extremely responsive instruments will chirp.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
whew, i think i'm getting the ernestine caper, even on the reel! thanks, mcdevincabe!!!!
it was a matter of adjusting your steps to hold the first melody note just long enough to sound the first cut, to mask the difference between the two cut notes. this is NOT necessary if doing this ornament as fast & super-ooper staccato as michael o'r. his sound to me like little pebbles. ernestine's streamlined sound is still of course fast & staccato, but that streamlined, smooth effect (which i really love) comes from it being a fraction of a hair slower than michael or noel, and you can hear the cut notes.....masking the first one just a tad gets around that. i have been practicing much of this weekend. thanks again!!
this is of course a different ornament than cranning the same note sequence but doing the melody note twice at the start, or twice at the end, which means the cuts are twice as fast as the melody notes:
AAccA
AccAA
the one we have been dissecting is
AccA
a lot of these guys do them all, of course. i notice this particularly with michael o'r.....
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
ceemonster, I'm assuming your c's refer to the cuts, not to the pitch, is that right?
Devin said that to do this on A, he would play A, d, ^d, A (using ^c
instead of ^c on some boxes).
I do this playing A, d, B, A (all on the pull). It seems to me that using the B helps with the "masking" since it's closer in pitch to the A. I also find that staying on the C row instead of going up to the accidental row is slightly easier.
Incidentally, MO'R calls this ornament a cran. I have a handout of his showing suggested crans and he lists A, d, B, A, with an optional extra A on the end.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
the one we have been dissecting perhaps more algebraically than my first abbreviation, would be, (yes, all in same direction)
Ac1c2A, can be evenly distributed, or sometimes the pulse sounds like:
A-c1c2A
gearoid o'hallmhorain calls that a roll, and calls a cran, the one with the A twice at the end. but i almost don't wanna go there, because terminology for this stuff varies so wildly. the algebra is more clear for me. BUT....if you do the A twice at the end (or, could instead do twice at the beginning), you get a different distribution for the cuts than if it is one A sandwiching 2 cuts at each end. (per gearoid, some even do three cuts in that mix). just depends on what you like. i am liking the cleaner sound with one A at each end, and only two C's..in the sandwich.
i have seen a list of michael o'rs "crans" or whatever, and all of the above permutations appear on it. same with listening to his cds. you hear the sandwich one. you hear the one with two A's at the end. and sometimes you hear the one with two A's at the start. plus, he throws simple unadorned same-note triplets in there now and then. great lesson in developing a "lexicon" of your faves to switch around so as not to weary the ear of the listener. my faves are different from his, but i have learned a lot from him.....
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
ok cag, just saw your question---yes, my c's refer to the cuts. so more accurately, Ac1c2A. rhythmically there should probably be a hair of a pause after the first note. A--c1c2A.
mcdevincabe's steps are right-on about taking your finger off the first A, but i am getting a closer sound to ernestine's by not taking it off all the way til the fractoid of a sec after the first cut sounds (i think our coach said that above, anyway). so, i guess, i'm starting to relax the finger to release it, but it is still there enuf to sound while that first cut starts. if i don't do that, the cuts are obviously two different notes because the smoother ernestine roll is smooth because they are just a millteenth less staccato than the noel or michael o'r version. i found one of michael's on his new 2nd cd, can't recall which track, and he's not holding the first note, but the cuts are super-ooper short and staccato, though not loud. you can tell they are two different notes only by the fact that the two "blips" are different, but they are not two different NOTES, know what i mean? one is a quartz pebble. one is a topaz pebble. ernestine's are drops of water, and that is why like.....dympa o'sullivan also sounds a lot like that to me, though i have no clue what her ornaments are....
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Don't know if this thread is so old now people won't see it, but ceemonster, just wanted to say, you might be on to something with the idea of allowing the base note to drag over the top of the first cut. Has a nice ring to it...
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
hey, cag, i was debating whether to post here again for the same reasons, but if someone else is equally obsessive, i'm delighted to pile it on---- this weekend i kept at this, and where i am is this---
i am getting results pretty darn close to ernestine's video sound doing that holding-the-base note thing, but only on left-side pull notes, with the two brush cuts coming from the right side (also on the pull). it really almost sounds like the melody note in a same-note roll. you do have to lift it to sound it that last time, and you get subtle differences depending on how soon/late in the roll you decide you want to lift it. but it's darn close. also, it distributes rhythmically a teensy tad different depending on whether the roll starts on a downbeat, or on an off. but i'm getting darn close. also, you want to mess with your choice of right-hand cut notes. some sound weird. some are perfect.
on the push, on the other hand, it does NOT sound like it does on the pull. it's not that it sounds bad, i kinda like some of the push rolls i tried, but it is not an illusion of all one note to the degree that you get when you are holding a melody note on the pull and brushing two cuts on the right side (also on the pull, of course). and it doesn't sound much like the vido.
also----on the pull, but with all notes (melody plus cuts) on the right side, it is not sounding so great (in my case, anyway) to hold the base note.....perhaps because your fingers are so close together, or perhaps because all the notes are so high-pitched. over on the right side, i'm lifting it, and it sounds fine, but not the ernestine-video sound...
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I just noticed this thread, and thought of another factor that might be coming into play here. I've noticed when playing cag's concertina that it's easier to "mask" a D roll when played D{dB}D than an A roll when played A{dB}A. The A roll tends to come out "chirpier" or "boingier" (whatever you want to call it) than the D roll either because the low, loud bass causes more masking, or possibly because the high D grace note follows the overtone series of the low D more closely than it does to A, and masks naturally, just causing "blip" interruptions to the melody note. I think things like reed responsiveness, volume and tone across bass/treble are going to have a lot of effect on how rolls come out. Ernestine probably uses those grace notes on the accidental row because she likes the particular way they mask on rolls. Maybe her concertina doesn't give her that effect with other grace notes because of reed tone/vol etc, and that's why it became part of her style.
But all this is a case of not seeing the wood for the trees really. A roll is something you do to achieve a particular exciting rhythmic effect, and at the same time articulate notes. It's not a cutesy decorative "ornament". All these rolls that M O'R, NH, EH, PR etc do are attempts at emulating the stuttering crans of the pipes or the smoother fiddle rolls, or the way that well-articulated rolls can sound on the flute if the grace notes come out as "blips" over the melody note. So whilst you guys are trying to emulate "concertina rolls" by the likes of M O'R and EH, those players have their sights set on emulating the rhythm of what they hear from pipes and fiddles. Doesn't matter what instrument you do it on, or whether it's a cran or a roll, or what grace notes you use, it's all about achieving the rhythm of a roll. My motto has always been to concentrate on getting that right, and then to start worrying about the fine detail.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Dow, didn't realise you were following this. I am finding ceemonsters "hold the melody note over the first cut" does create a rhythmic effect. On my concertina the second cut is too chirpy not to stick out, but the overall effect is pleasing. It removes the tendency for the roll to be muddy which was the case when we tried holding the melody note right through.
Ceemonster mentions that it is easier to make the effect happen on the pull rather than the push, and I put this down to the more percussive effect of pads being sucked shut on the pull versus relying on spring pressure to force them shut on the push. Its worth noting the first of Ernestines rolls is the E push using the d#,c# cuts, so she has it working well on the push. I have asked MOR if he thinks they are harder on the push than the pull and his answer was the telephone version of a blank stare. He had no idea what I was talking about.
I agree that Ernestine's rolls may be specific to the response of her concertina.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Also if you listen to her sound clip, some of Ernestine's rolls are muddier than others and some are chirpier. It's not like she's doing a consistent thing each time.
I can see the "hold down to mask 1st grace note method" working quite well for your concertina, cag, if you're finding that cleaner, unmasked rolls are chirpier than you want to hear.
Interesting what you say about push versus pull wrt pads & spring pressure etc.
Anyway, I should be on your way to your place by now for some tunes. See you in about 15 mins
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
[But all this is a case of not seeing the wood for the trees really. A roll is something you do to achieve a particular exciting rhythmic effect, and at the same time articulate notes. It's not a cutesy decorative "ornament".]
it seems to me that what "all of this" might be a "case of," wouldn't be something you are in a position to diagnose, since you only know your own orientation, and aesthetic interests, not those of others.
the fact is that ornaments and their sound character vary wildly and can shape the unique personality of your style as much as phrasing or syncopation or anything else. ernestine healy's are night-and-day different from noel hill's, which are vastly different from mary macnamara's. same with the pipers, their ornaments are like fingerprints, not fungible parts. which type of ornamental "personality" a musician subjectively is drawn to, such that they might try something like that in developing their own style, or combine it with other stuff they also like in their own style, is part of the process of developing an individual sound. it's an exciting process and one that can change and evolve. i have enjoyed the living heck out of this thread.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I am becoming a fan of the "what are we hearing here" approach to rolls, rather than the "how does x do it" mystery approach.
What I can say in the Ernestine case is the roll sounds like a form of triplet, three notes of the same pitch with the first one a little longer than the other two. This is an effect that could be duplicated by a single finger but I know it would lack something. There is a single finger roll (could be a G or A roll using two buttons) in the beginning of the Mairead Corridan clip on the same site, albeit with the emphasis on the the last note, and it has punch but lacks the subtle power.
I experimented last night with the "mask the first note" style and can report it is interesting and very rhythmic, but on my concertina the second note still screams out, and when I mask both the effect is muddy.
What are you playing, ceemonster? Fast and loud concertina?
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Cag, I know you know this, but also bear in mind that what you are hearing from your concertina bears little relation to what the people around you are hearing, because the sound is coming out the sides. Grace notes that seem to leap out to you may not do so for other musos around you, and likewise, what you think is a "muddy" sounding roll might sound clearer from a different angle. My advice is that you record yourself playing the different types and decide which ones you like the best on the basis of that.
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
hi, cag...no, i am playing "cutesy, decorative" concertina.
seriously.....i am playing (or striving to play) unhurried, streamlined, clean-sounding concertina. i had no intention of messing much with rolls because many i hear indeed sound fast and loud. the ernestine ones grabbed me because they sound so clean. i use the slap triplet because you can do it in a streamlined way, and i also love how the plain same-note triplet sounds on john williams' first (self-titled) cd and on chris droney's cds....i also love that little thing that terry bingham does on reels on his cd. it's not really a triplet but it works. i guess i'm trying to collect a little tool box of sounds i like to switch off with....
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
actually, word of honor this is true, i got an email earlier today from someone in my area asking, did i happen to know how ernestine healy is doing the rolls in her comhaltas video! i'm not kidding! i thought they were slagging my obsessive hair-splitting on this thread, but it was someone who had never seen this thread and was in dead-earnest, and i had a field day going over it ALL, AGAIN!!!
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
When I asked what sort of concertina you were playing I meant as in, Jeffries, Wheatstone, Lachenal etc... I was looking for some indication of reed response which has to be an indicator of chirpiness.
When I first heard E's rolls I was attracted to them for the same reason...
Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
The new http://www.comhaltas.ie website has a great video selection, in case you haven't checked it out, and all of the new clips being added have mp3 files available as well.
I wanted to download some of the older ComhaltasLive programs as mp3s, and found a website that lets you download an mp3 file for any flash video online. There's no need to download buggy and spyware-ridden shareware media converters. I'll post the instructions here in case anyone else was wondering how to do this:
1. Open a particular video on comhaltas.ie.
2. Look at the source of the page and copy the address of the FLV file (i.e. http://media.comhaltas.ie/video/cl221/cl221_3_Med.flv). You can ignore the part of the URL past the "flv".
3. Go to http://media-convert.com/convert/
4. Choose "URL", paste the address of the FLV, and choose "Flash Video (.flv)" from the gigantic list of formats on the right (the option is near the top).
5. Choose "MPEG-1/2 Audio Layer 3 (.mp3) as your output format and click OK.
6. After a minute of downloading and processing, it'll give you a link to download the mp3 file.
Another question that seems to crop up fairly often is how to download the audio from a video on youtube.com. The process is the same. To find the address of the FLV file, just use this website: http://kej.tw/flvretriever/
Hope someone else finds this useful.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
thanks, ha, -i keep watching ernestine healy's trying to figure out her concertina rolls. i think hers are some of the loveliest around. i do the slap triplet but would like to add these to the mix, and they seem different from some of the other crans/rolls i've learned for concertina, but i can't figure out how....i love how they are very clean and fluttery....
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Here's how she does them. Say you're rolling an A (G row, first button, pull):
1. Play the A
2. Lift your finger
3. While your left finger is lifted, play two notes with your right hand. She uses the D (G row, second button, pull) then the D# (accidental row, second button, pull). This second note might be a C# on some layouts.
4. Play the A again.
I think this is one of the more standard methods. People phrase it differently, though. That's how hers can sound different from Padraig Rynne's, whose sound different from Michael O Raghallaigh.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
wow, thanks! that DOES seem like what michael says he does---but hers sound different in a way i really like.
ok, that looks like her jig roll, but for a long roll during a reel, where doing it all on the same note would look like A, AAAA, would she play the A twice first, or once at first but twice at the end? this is what i can't grasp in the reels on her video.....is she going,
A, A (cut/cut) A?, OR
A, (cut/cut)A A
perhaps this should have been an email, sorry....
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Devin that's a great piece of software on that site.
Thanks a million for posting that.
My only concern would be that somehow the downloaded mp3 at the end of the process might contain some bugs or spyware, but I guess you have checked that out already.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Donough
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I'm posting the ABCs for the first jig in the tunes section if anyone's interested. Ernistine's a lovely player indeed.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Thanks PB, that's a fantastic jig. It was played by Stockton's Wing on one of their early recordings under the title "Trip to London".
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I already did
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7500
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I think the structure of the rolls are all the same. The difference is mostly where you place the cuts within the note. Try to hold them off until the last third of the main note (if your note is a dotted quarter note).
Donough, I don't believe there's a way to inject spyware into an mp3 file.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
mcdevincabe
I know this is off topic but...
While your description of a roll sequence concurs with everything I have heard before I can't make it produce the sounds I hear from good players, including Ernestine.
When I do as you say I end up with either,
1)a sequence of notes in which the D,D# (in your example above) stand out as notes in their own right
2) if I shorten the notes they chirp very loudly and dominate the roll.
Further to this, the rolls in the comhaltas video sound like the note being rolled upon, A in your sequence above, is played three times in a triplet. The notes from the right hand don't really sound, they interrupt the left hand note in some way turning it into a triplet. And if you watch Ernestine's left hand fingers, hard to do as they are obscured, you could argue she does not lift the left finger while hitting the right hand notes.
If I try this I find that on the pull in particular I can create this affect, that the grace notes interrupt the "tonic" note and create rhythm in it.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying there is something going on I don't understand.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by cag
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Concertina rolls are very difficult to pick up on by watching or listening to a video clip. You really have to have someone slow it down for you in person to understand them.
When you lift the finger on your left hand up, you don't need to take it off the button, just take off a bit of pressure to let the right hand notes break it up. The right hand notes need to be very percussive and if you play them fast enough, you can't really hear the exact pitches.
I learned how to do rolls from her and that's the most accurately I can describe it. It's all in how timing the lifting and the hitting properly and making the right hand notes short enough. It also helps to have a concertina with fast action so that all of the notes can sound quickly.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
The roll Devin describes is the same roll Noel Hill showed me ages ago. He told me you don't just hit the notes on the right hand, but rather "throw" your fingers at them. The idea is to creat an audio illusion that the note on the left hand is repeating rather than hearing the two right hand notes.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
this is princely of you to take these pains to lay it out. though, i must say, i'm with CAG, not that i think you are wrong, but for sure, there seems to be something a tad different in the video between the reel roll and the jig roll....i practiced your breakdown for quite a while last night and this morning, and what i'm getting is starting to sound kinda cool, but don't think it reproduces the reel pattern in the video. i've had rolls or crans broken down in workshops by gearoid, and i can do those pretty much as taught, but he plays the melody note twice at the end so you distribute the whole thing differently, and it's great but not the sound i'd be looking for in a roll, and ernestine's is. i listened to one of your cd clips and yours does indeed sound very nicely like ernestine's, though it was a jig and i think i get her jig roll. it's the reel where something is going on that i'm not grokking. perhaps, like you see, it is just the distribution.... but i'm going to keep messing iwth it, and many thanks!
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
that last ceemonster response was to devin's....but i'll bet the roll or cran i learned from gearoid is close to the noel one, and i can get it to sound much like gearoid taught it, but because he hits the melody note twice at the end, (or twice at the start) you do the cuts faster, which gives the sound described above as a "chirp" that dominates the roll, which is indeed what i hear noel & others doing, and it 's great, but not what the more streamlined effect i'm after---ernestine and i believe dympna are do something a tad different. it gives an effect that is more evenly distributed and though staccato, less staccato than michael o'r's, noel's or gearoid's. it doesn't have that "chirp", or what i call a !boing! noise....i'll just have to keep playing with it....
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Would the roll on A as described by Devin not be a tad difficult bearing in mind that you would be trying to use the second finger for both buttons if you are to play second button on accidental row or is the D# hit with the first finger or am I missing something here???
# Posted on August 10th 2007 by concertinaplayer
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Sorry, meant first button D# pull. Might be a C# on Jeffries layouts, though.
Although I sometimes vary what notes I hit depending on what left hand note I'm rolling. One example would be a high E on the G row. I roll that with an F natural and D# pull, since it makes it a more like a true roll.
# Posted on August 10th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
yes, i vary notes also, on box rolls as well.....it's that streamlined, fluttery rhythmic pattern of the ernestine ornament that i don't have yet......i usually tend to switch off between slap rolls and a simple same-note triplet accompanied by a cut inserted "behind" the triplet from the other side of the concertina, have been avoiding crans/rolls because i don't like the staccatissimo cran effect described above where the cuts "chirp really loudly and dominate the entire roll..." but i really like the ernestine one, and i'm gonna figure out how to get it eventually.....this has all been most fascinating.
# Posted on August 10th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
OK, to recap, the left hand note is only partially lifted while the two right hand notes are sounded. The right hand notes are made as short (not fast) as possible. No pitch is required from them, they either interrupt the left note to turn it into a triplet, or chirp, depending on whose style you are listening to. Does this sound right?
By the way, anyone know what sort of concertina Ernestine is playing?
# Posted on August 10th 2007 by cag
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Your description sounds good to me.
I believe it's a Wheatstone Linota.
# Posted on August 10th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
cag, i believe that in the ernestine version, the cuts are given equal rhythmic value with the melody notes in tht roll---they do not sound like "grace notes" in that sense of slamming super-fast onto the melody note. they get even, equal space (even done quickly). with the "chirp"-sounding roll or cran, they are given less value than the repeated melody note, so you almost don't even hear them separately. they sound almost like a grace to a same-note triplet, but there are two of them, and that makes that chirp sound that i call, !boing! ironically, though i don't even like that effect that much, it has been much easier for me to do it or close to it, than the ernestine one....
# Posted on August 10th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I need to state at the front of this I am a neophyte and will not be offended by opposition to these ideas.
I agree on the timing of the notes in the Ernestine version. However I notice you are seeing a difference in timing of notes that chirp and notes that don't. I think the chirp comes from the duration and force of the note, not how close it is to the notes around it, that is, how fast the sequence is played. It is not the speed of the notes as a group, but the duration and force of each note that makes the chirp.
To have another go in the hope of a better explanation, if you have a certain space available for a note within the rhythm, you can play the note to take up all the space, or you can play it shorter with a gap on each side, as in staccato. If you do this with a little bellows force the chirp will happen on any responsive instrument. Chirpy players like MOR seem to do this on their cuts and any other time they want to make a rhythmic point. To chirp a note throw your finger at it on an arc that will have it fall off the button when it is only 3/4 depressed, with a lot of bellows pressure. My understanding of this comes from Dow.
I do find myself wondering if the roll effect might differ even for good players depending on the responsiveness of the instrument they are playing. Extremely responsive instruments will chirp.
# Posted on August 11th 2007 by cag
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
whew, i think i'm getting the ernestine caper, even on the reel! thanks, mcdevincabe!!!!
it was a matter of adjusting your steps to hold the first melody note just long enough to sound the first cut, to mask the difference between the two cut notes. this is NOT necessary if doing this ornament as fast & super-ooper staccato as michael o'r. his sound to me like little pebbles. ernestine's streamlined sound is still of course fast & staccato, but that streamlined, smooth effect (which i really love) comes from it being a fraction of a hair slower than michael or noel, and you can hear the cut notes.....masking the first one just a tad gets around that. i have been practicing much of this weekend. thanks again!!
this is of course a different ornament than cranning the same note sequence but doing the melody note twice at the start, or twice at the end, which means the cuts are twice as fast as the melody notes:
AAccA
AccAA
the one we have been dissecting is
AccA
a lot of these guys do them all, of course. i notice this particularly with michael o'r.....
# Posted on August 13th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
ceemonster
more detail..! Are you lifting the melody note right off, or only partially?
What is the difference you infer between the two cut notes that needs masking? Do you mean the pitch?
# Posted on August 13th 2007 by cag
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
ceemonster, I'm assuming your c's refer to the cuts, not to the pitch, is that right?
Devin said that to do this on A, he would play A, d, ^d, A (using ^c
instead of ^c on some boxes).
I do this playing A, d, B, A (all on the pull). It seems to me that using the B helps with the "masking" since it's closer in pitch to the A. I also find that staying on the C row instead of going up to the accidental row is slightly easier.
Incidentally, MO'R calls this ornament a cran. I have a handout of his showing suggested crans and he lists A, d, B, A, with an optional extra A on the end.
# Posted on August 13th 2007 by csharpd
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Sorry, that should have read:
Devin said that to do this on A, he would play A, d, ^d, A (using ^c instead of ^d on some boxes).
# Posted on August 13th 2007 by csharpd
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
the one we have been dissecting perhaps more algebraically than my first abbreviation, would be, (yes, all in same direction)
Ac1c2A, can be evenly distributed, or sometimes the pulse sounds like:
A-c1c2A
gearoid o'hallmhorain calls that a roll, and calls a cran, the one with the A twice at the end. but i almost don't wanna go there, because terminology for this stuff varies so wildly. the algebra is more clear for me. BUT....if you do the A twice at the end (or, could instead do twice at the beginning), you get a different distribution for the cuts than if it is one A sandwiching 2 cuts at each end. (per gearoid, some even do three cuts in that mix). just depends on what you like. i am liking the cleaner sound with one A at each end, and only two C's..in the sandwich.
i have seen a list of michael o'rs "crans" or whatever, and all of the above permutations appear on it. same with listening to his cds. you hear the sandwich one. you hear the one with two A's at the end. and sometimes you hear the one with two A's at the start. plus, he throws simple unadorned same-note triplets in there now and then. great lesson in developing a "lexicon" of your faves to switch around so as not to weary the ear of the listener. my faves are different from his, but i have learned a lot from him.....
# Posted on August 13th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
ok cag, just saw your question---yes, my c's refer to the cuts. so more accurately, Ac1c2A. rhythmically there should probably be a hair of a pause after the first note. A--c1c2A.
mcdevincabe's steps are right-on about taking your finger off the first A, but i am getting a closer sound to ernestine's by not taking it off all the way til the fractoid of a sec after the first cut sounds (i think our coach said that above, anyway). so, i guess, i'm starting to relax the finger to release it, but it is still there enuf to sound while that first cut starts. if i don't do that, the cuts are obviously two different notes because the smoother ernestine roll is smooth because they are just a millteenth less staccato than the noel or michael o'r version. i found one of michael's on his new 2nd cd, can't recall which track, and he's not holding the first note, but the cuts are super-ooper short and staccato, though not loud. you can tell they are two different notes only by the fact that the two "blips" are different, but they are not two different NOTES, know what i mean? one is a quartz pebble. one is a topaz pebble. ernestine's are drops of water, and that is why like.....dympa o'sullivan also sounds a lot like that to me, though i have no clue what her ornaments are....
# Posted on August 13th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Don't know if this thread is so old now people won't see it, but ceemonster, just wanted to say, you might be on to something with the idea of allowing the base note to drag over the top of the first cut. Has a nice ring to it...
# Posted on August 18th 2007 by cag
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
hey, cag, i was debating whether to post here again for the same reasons, but if someone else is equally obsessive, i'm delighted to pile it on---- this weekend i kept at this, and where i am is this---
i am getting results pretty darn close to ernestine's video sound doing that holding-the-base note thing, but only on left-side pull notes, with the two brush cuts coming from the right side (also on the pull). it really almost sounds like the melody note in a same-note roll. you do have to lift it to sound it that last time, and you get subtle differences depending on how soon/late in the roll you decide you want to lift it. but it's darn close. also, it distributes rhythmically a teensy tad different depending on whether the roll starts on a downbeat, or on an off. but i'm getting darn close. also, you want to mess with your choice of right-hand cut notes. some sound weird. some are perfect.
on the push, on the other hand, it does NOT sound like it does on the pull. it's not that it sounds bad, i kinda like some of the push rolls i tried, but it is not an illusion of all one note to the degree that you get when you are holding a melody note on the pull and brushing two cuts on the right side (also on the pull, of course). and it doesn't sound much like the vido.
also----on the pull, but with all notes (melody plus cuts) on the right side, it is not sounding so great (in my case, anyway) to hold the base note.....perhaps because your fingers are so close together, or perhaps because all the notes are so high-pitched. over on the right side, i'm lifting it, and it sounds fine, but not the ernestine-video sound...
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I just noticed this thread, and thought of another factor that might be coming into play here. I've noticed when playing cag's concertina that it's easier to "mask" a D roll when played D{dB}D than an A roll when played A{dB}A. The A roll tends to come out "chirpier" or "boingier" (whatever you want to call it) than the D roll either because the low, loud bass causes more masking, or possibly because the high D grace note follows the overtone series of the low D more closely than it does to A, and masks naturally, just causing "blip" interruptions to the melody note. I think things like reed responsiveness, volume and tone across bass/treble are going to have a lot of effect on how rolls come out. Ernestine probably uses those grace notes on the accidental row because she likes the particular way they mask on rolls. Maybe her concertina doesn't give her that effect with other grace notes because of reed tone/vol etc, and that's why it became part of her style.
But all this is a case of not seeing the wood for the trees really. A roll is something you do to achieve a particular exciting rhythmic effect, and at the same time articulate notes. It's not a cutesy decorative "ornament". All these rolls that M O'R, NH, EH, PR etc do are attempts at emulating the stuttering crans of the pipes or the smoother fiddle rolls, or the way that well-articulated rolls can sound on the flute if the grace notes come out as "blips" over the melody note. So whilst you guys are trying to emulate "concertina rolls" by the likes of M O'R and EH, those players have their sights set on emulating the rhythm of what they hear from pipes and fiddles. Doesn't matter what instrument you do it on, or whether it's a cran or a roll, or what grace notes you use, it's all about achieving the rhythm of a roll. My motto has always been to concentrate on getting that right, and then to start worrying about the fine detail.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by Dow
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Dow, didn't realise you were following this. I am finding ceemonsters "hold the melody note over the first cut" does create a rhythmic effect. On my concertina the second cut is too chirpy not to stick out, but the overall effect is pleasing. It removes the tendency for the roll to be muddy which was the case when we tried holding the melody note right through.
Ceemonster mentions that it is easier to make the effect happen on the pull rather than the push, and I put this down to the more percussive effect of pads being sucked shut on the pull versus relying on spring pressure to force them shut on the push. Its worth noting the first of Ernestines rolls is the E push using the d#,c# cuts, so she has it working well on the push. I have asked MOR if he thinks they are harder on the push than the pull and his answer was the telephone version of a blank stare. He had no idea what I was talking about.
I agree that Ernestine's rolls may be specific to the response of her concertina.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by cag
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Also if you listen to her sound clip, some of Ernestine's rolls are muddier than others and some are chirpier. It's not like she's doing a consistent thing each time.
I can see the "hold down to mask 1st grace note method" working quite well for your concertina, cag, if you're finding that cleaner, unmasked rolls are chirpier than you want to hear.
Interesting what you say about push versus pull wrt pads & spring pressure etc.
Anyway, I should be on your way to your place by now for some tunes. See you in about 15 mins
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by Dow
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
And very nice it was too...
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by cag
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I'm pretty tired, but I have to feed my ebay addiction before I go to bed and finish off those beers, and Miles baiting is always irresistible
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by Dow
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
[But all this is a case of not seeing the wood for the trees really. A roll is something you do to achieve a particular exciting rhythmic effect, and at the same time articulate notes. It's not a cutesy decorative "ornament".]
it seems to me that what "all of this" might be a "case of," wouldn't be something you are in a position to diagnose, since you only know your own orientation, and aesthetic interests, not those of others.
the fact is that ornaments and their sound character vary wildly and can shape the unique personality of your style as much as phrasing or syncopation or anything else. ernestine healy's are night-and-day different from noel hill's, which are vastly different from mary macnamara's. same with the pipers, their ornaments are like fingerprints, not fungible parts. which type of ornamental "personality" a musician subjectively is drawn to, such that they might try something like that in developing their own style, or combine it with other stuff they also like in their own style, is part of the process of developing an individual sound. it's an exciting process and one that can change and evolve. i have enjoyed the living heck out of this thread.
# Posted on August 21st 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
I am becoming a fan of the "what are we hearing here" approach to rolls, rather than the "how does x do it" mystery approach.
What I can say in the Ernestine case is the roll sounds like a form of triplet, three notes of the same pitch with the first one a little longer than the other two. This is an effect that could be duplicated by a single finger but I know it would lack something. There is a single finger roll (could be a G or A roll using two buttons) in the beginning of the Mairead Corridan clip on the same site, albeit with the emphasis on the the last note, and it has punch but lacks the subtle power.
I experimented last night with the "mask the first note" style and can report it is interesting and very rhythmic, but on my concertina the second note still screams out, and when I mask both the effect is muddy.
What are you playing, ceemonster? Fast and loud concertina?
# Posted on August 22nd 2007 by cag
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Cag, I know you know this, but also bear in mind that what you are hearing from your concertina bears little relation to what the people around you are hearing, because the sound is coming out the sides. Grace notes that seem to leap out to you may not do so for other musos around you, and likewise, what you think is a "muddy" sounding roll might sound clearer from a different angle. My advice is that you record yourself playing the different types and decide which ones you like the best on the basis of that.
# Posted on August 22nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
Oh, and do them in the context of tunes as well, not in isolation.
# Posted on August 22nd 2007 by Dow
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
hi, cag...no, i am playing "cutesy, decorative" concertina.
seriously.....i am playing (or striving to play) unhurried, streamlined, clean-sounding concertina. i had no intention of messing much with rolls because many i hear indeed sound fast and loud. the ernestine ones grabbed me because they sound so clean. i use the slap triplet because you can do it in a streamlined way, and i also love how the plain same-note triplet sounds on john williams' first (self-titled) cd and on chris droney's cds....i also love that little thing that terry bingham does on reels on his cd. it's not really a triplet but it works. i guess i'm trying to collect a little tool box of sounds i like to switch off with....
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
actually, word of honor this is true, i got an email earlier today from someone in my area asking, did i happen to know how ernestine healy is doing the rolls in her comhaltas video! i'm not kidding! i thought they were slagging my obsessive hair-splitting on this thread, but it was someone who had never seen this thread and was in dead-earnest, and i had a field day going over it ALL, AGAIN!!!
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Download mp3s for videos on comhaltas.ie, youtube.com, etc.
When I asked what sort of concertina you were playing I meant as in, Jeffries, Wheatstone, Lachenal etc... I was looking for some indication of reed response which has to be an indicator of chirpiness.
When I first heard E's rolls I was attracted to them for the same reason...
# Posted on August 23rd 2007 by cag