"We're trying to avoid a commercial presentation, and give musicians a chance to go back into the roots of the music for a night."
This is the ethos of the organisers of the Masters of Tradition Festival in Bantry, which seems to be the exact opposite ethos to the World Blah organisers.
So I put it to you, how many Irish traditional musicians play with real soul nowadays?
How many players do you know that match the effortless natural soulful playing of the old greats like Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy, Padraig O'Keeffe, Julia Clifford, Denis Murphy, John Doherty, Con Cassidy, Paddy Fahey, Paddy Canny, Tommy Potts to name but a very few.
How many of the top players of the current generation have a similar sense of the music? I can think of a few but only very few are appreciated outside small circles.
Is it simply a fact that ITM needs its rough edges to be smoothed out in order for it to become 'accessible' or have people just become lazy and more interested in the commercial potential of the music?
I've just been listening to the recent CD release of the late great Donegal fiddler Con Cassidy, his playing is edgy, rough and experimental but all the better for it. If anyone tried to play like him in an average session today they'd likely get scornful looks.
I really wish more trad musicians would get deep into the music like this, play from their heart and soul and not be afraid to unleash their personality on the music in the way that say Danny Meehan changes from a hushed dynamic to suddenly unleash a barrage of aggressive playing.
Not only is the soul of the musician being lost, in my opinion the true spirit of ITM is being eaten up by the Celtic Tiger in order to line the pockets of publicans, politicians and promoters.
Smoothness of playing does not imply commercialization nor does roughness imply respect for the tradition. Many young musicians have a rough edge to their playing while many older musicians have a smooth, polished sound. You haven't made your case that these qualities are in any way related beyond stating that they are.
Why does Con Cassidy get to be experimental but contemporary musicians do not? Because he has a "rough" sound? Why shouldn't musicians strive to improve their technique to their hearts' content? For the very best, it comes along naturally. Take Michael Coleman, for instance--some very smooth, flawless playing right there if you ask me.
it doesn't have to be rough and edgy to be soulful, Paddy Fahey plays with a beautifully clear and graceful tone.
By the "soul" of the music I mean players who put their heart and soul into the music in such a way that when you hear them play you can feel they are telling you something about themselves and also bringing out the meaning of the music.
I think a lot of people just reel off reel after reel these days without a sense of what the music is about. It's not just about dancing, you only have to look at the slow airs for proof of that, but for the dance music it expresses so much more than dancing.
There are elements to all the musicians I mentioned which would be considered rough by some people, in other words there are concepts of articulation, rhythm and tuning which might be considered wrong by the uninitiated whereras the more you look into it the more you see that it is these things which give the music its soul, by taking away these 'rough edges' you are taking away the soul of the music.....and before anyone says anything there's a huge difference between the 'rough edges' of these musicians and the 'rough edges' of bad or moderate musicians. If an old fiddler plays scratchy and out of tune and rhythm they aren't automatically great old fiddle masters!
The great players used certain forms of articulation, tuning and rhythmic phrasing deliberately to bring out the emotions they wished to express. When I say they did this deliberately I don't mean they contrived it, for the most part these are just sounds that came out of them naturally whilst they were expressing themselves.
So that is the soul I am talking about, comprendé?
If that's what you mean by, "soul," then you have nothing to worry about.as far as it being lost. There are many current and young players with that sort of soul today. Next topic...
And just to show you I do think some players play with soul today here is a list of living people who play with the sense of soul I'm talking about
Caoimhín O Raghallaigh, Martin Hayes, Breda Keville, Mick O'Brien, John Carty, Matt Molloy, Harry Bradley, Charlie Lennon, James Byrne. I could go on but that's not really my point. Perhaps I didn't express it properly.
I think before the music got so popular and commercialised the vast majority of players both virtuoso and average had the sense of soul I'm talking about. People just played it for the fact that they loved the music and they could express themselves through it. Now that Ireland has become a 'successful European country' with tons of money I wonder is the soul of the music being lost.
Is ITM simply another hobby for middle-class parents to send their kids to do rather than an essential part of life. Is it becoming a form of disposable pop music?
I know there are many players out there with a lot of soul but I've come across an awful lot of players who express little or nothing in their playing, I would guess that 100 years ago even the average fiddler had a great sense of expression.
There are many technically astounding musicians today but very few of them seem to be able to match this technical ability with emotional ability, this is the soul of the music I'm talking about.
Is it not worse to be technically brilliant and emotionally cold rather than technically average and full of soul? Only a few players can reach the heights of being both technically brilliant and full of soul but for everyone else surely it's more important to develop their expressive side? This is something which I see missing from many competition winners and all those dazzlingly quick players you'll find in sessions all over the place. They think it's simply enough to play this music at the same quick tempo, at the same loud dynamic and with the same clean articulation. The truly great players know this is wrong and I suspect that 100 years ago this kind of monotonous approach wasn't even considered.
one final point, how many players do you know that really do sound like individuals, like themselves rather than clones of Coleman, McGoldrick, Molloy, Hayes etc. That's another thing that makes the great musicians stand out, they were all individuals, in fact the more you look into ITM in the past (and I can particularly refer to Donegal music here), the less you see a particular regional style than you see many diverse individual styles.
It seems to me the influence of some individuals has been just too strong so that now we have the Sligo style (Coleman/Morrison imitators), Donegal style (Doherty/Altan imitators), Clare style (Clancy/Casey imitators), Sliabh Lúchra style (O'Keeffe/Daly imitators) and yes believe it or not Manchester style (McGoldrick/Donnelly/John Joe imitators).
Before this, certainly in Donegal anyway, musicians seemed to strive to just sound like themselves, they listened to and learnt from others but they would never try to exactly imitate Coleman like they were some tribute act.
Anyway I think I've made my point at this stage. So I won't say anymore on the topic.
[before the music got so popular and commercialised the vast majority of players both virtuoso and average had the sense of soul I'm talking about.]
maybe. maybe not. we don't really know, do we? i'm not a fan of the "trained monkey" syndrome turning out super-fast, super-technical itm kiddiwinks who play with all the feeling of automatons, but i'm feeling cynical today, and today i suspect that percentage-wise, the fraction who played with great emotional feeling in the past was probably not much different from that of today.
in the classical music world, every year, conservatories turn out plenty of "trained monkeys" who play with great virtuosity and scant imagination or deep feeling, plus a few deeply moving players. in itm, yes, today we have larger numbers misusing the, er, "exciting" paradigm borrowed from pop music and, in the words of joe burke, "beating the hell out of the tune," but the percentage of emotionally touching, moving players, i'll bet has not changed that much. a bunch can be heard on the RTE "bloom of youth" archive page, and i could add a slew of names to those on your list.
the editor of Coagula, a contrarian art journal in my state, published a highly entertaining anthology of his essays titled "Most Art Sucks." i have found this to be true across the board metier-wise, culture-wise, and time-wise.
There were probably players in the old days that played without soul as well, but we haven't heard about them. There will always be good and not so good players along with the very good and soulful players. The only time you need to worry about the soul being lost is if there are only soulless and not so good players left. But that's not the case as you yourself have clearly pointed out.
i play with soul and feeling in the sessions i go to, and i used to get bad looks from some of the snobbier people. but now, a lot of people are starting to come out and put their own spin on the music. i just cant play without feeling or my own style, ITM can get a little repetitive and boring without some originality in it.
This is probably the one thing in ITM that I get annoyed about - people saying how much better it was back then. "Oh, a century ago people played with soul, with feeling, with expression, it had meaning, but now it's just technically brilliant but emotionally cold players who play reel after reel, much too fast of course, and with no soul."
That is so naïve!! The only evidence we've got of 100 years ago is some very bad recordings of very few players. You can't say what the general attitude was from just that. Today the music is much more popular and widespread than back then, with millions of recordings at hand, CDs being churned out left, right and centre by anyone who fancies it. And that's a great thing. Of course loads of them have little or no soul! But in the "old days", recording was really expensive and hard to come by, so only the best got recorded.
As to the average Joe playing monotonously "nowadays" -- "I suspect that 100 years ago this kind of monotonous approach wasn't even considered." What?!! Of course it was considered! Of course people played monotonously in sessions back then! Not least because in a session, the last thing on your mind is subtle inflection and feeling. But even in solo performing - the truly great players do indeed know this is wrong, and I bet there are a lot more truly great players around now than there ever have been at any one time before this, if only because it is so much more popular now, making the distribution wider.
How many players do I know that really sound like individuals? All of them. Everyone I know that plays ITM sounds exactly like themselves. They have influences of everyone they admire, and in some of them you can hear their influences more strongly than in others. And that IS who they are, playing-wise. What else can influence a person's playing? Their genes?
Or is your issue about Ireland becoming richer? Well face it, dude, that's a good thing. And how does a poorer country make for more soulful playing? A farmer might express the tragedy and suffering caused by the failure of his crop through his playing of Drowsy Maggie? Commercialism does not affect sessions. It does not affect the way people play their instrument, except in a good way - I might really like the drums and bass that Mike McGoldrick puts into his CDs, and strive to become more like the fantastic player he is. And it brings the Music to a wider audience, some of whom may become the next Tommy Peoples or something.
Sorry, but I think that Irish Traditional Music is in a better state now than it has ever been.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that someday people will describe right now as a "golden age" for ITM and lament about how much more "soulful" the players were in the early years of the 21st Century. There are certainly more examples of good playing, even soulful playing, and they are much more accessible, then ever before in the history of the music.
I know what you mean frisbee. I'm not sure if it has to do with ages or generations but their are players and bands that are wonderful musicians but dont put soul or energy into it. Has anyone heard the band Gan Bua? They have soul, you can feel it right through the music. Another band from oberlin college in the states played for a dance and I've never heard such feeling in music. I'm tired and running a bit of a fever so its time for the rambling to end and the brandy to heal. Night all!
ok... it's 7am and i haven't read the half of this but one thing that strikes me is that almost always, it's quiet/ melancholic people who are thought to be the sole possesors of soul. the human soul posseses a wider range than the mono emotional. i feel that the real musicians are those who can explore and express the many aspects of their personality/soul... from negative to POSITIVE and all which lays in between... of the listed, i think that tommy potts and con cassidy are possibly the only two to really having achieved that (being aware of some of their own personality traits)
if the soul is the embodyment of ones personality 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul' then as there are some personalities who we don't get on with, isn't it possible that there are some personalities that we don't appreciate just because they're on a different vibe to us? i think this is a largely overlooked element of this subject....
I agree wih your last statement, martin t - about different vibes.
Personally, I think that as long as people are playing music, we'll always have music that is soulful in one way or another.
Many of today's players (including many of us amateurs) put just as much "soul" into the music as ever. But in many cases, the music is no longer an integral part of the community--and that may make it seem "soul-less"--disconnected from its own roots.
Mind you, that wholeness of music/community still exists in some places, and at some times. But radio, tv, recordings, ease of travel, etc. have probably forever changed the role of this music within the communities where it still lives. So it doesn't have the integrity or gravitas it once did.
And I agree wholeheartedly with Martin T's comment above about musicians who express happiness and joy with lots of soul, as well as sorrow and the whole range of emotions when they play this music. I'd add Bobby Casey to the list of often joyful players with soul, and John Carty, and Conal O'Grada, and Cathal McConnell, and Mairead Mhaonaigh and most of the friends I play with, and Joanie Madden, and.....
Since we've started on definitions of "soul" which I think is essential and thanks martin, we have to take into account *how* the expression of this "soul" is perceived, ie, subjective interpretation. One man's or mna's soulful player might be another man's robot. Someone mentioned Joe Burke earlier. As much as I admire and respect his playing, I don't find it particularly soulful. Same with Kevin Burke (sorry Will!). Whereas there is something indefinably soulful in the playing of Tansey, Willie Clancy, Bobby Casey and Joe Cooley...to ME, anyway.
what about the kind of player whose aim is the exact OPPOSITE to putting in soul and emotion? What about those musicians you hear whose playing is SO sublime that they DISAPPEAR and all that is left is this transcendant music that sounds like it was plucked from the air? To hear someone playing with fire and soul and energy is a wonderful thing, but to be in the prescence of a musician who is able to put themselves to one side so all you hear is music free of personality, soul, emotion, ego..thats when u can genuinely start using the term "spiritual" in relation to music..doesnt happen very often!
Frisbee, are you mainly talking about CDs or live performances? These days, with the development of recording technology, it's fairly usual that what you hear on a CD will be one take of a huge number - presuming it's not a compound of various takes or recorded in isolation to a guide track over the headphones. So, a lot of the energy thats there when you walk in to record is gone by the time you've played a set 10 times back to back. Going back 100 years, when recording technology was the wax cylinder, it was pretty much one take only.
If you're talking about live performances, I can't comment - I'm too young to have ever seen any of the old masters.
That's what strikes me as well, Andy. The 'loss of soul' as people here perceive it surely has to do with the modern production values that go it making CD's etc. There is the means to smooth out the rough edges and fix the bits that don't sound 'quite right'. So sound engineers figure .. if it's there, then why not use it? Whereas older recordings are often 'one off's', like a session recording you'd make now. So if you take some of the musicans whose recordings you think lack soul and listen to them live, you might have a completely different view..
Technique forTechnique sake does not make good music,the standard now technically is higher than ever,
but partly due to Comhaltas there is an over emphasis on over ornamentation, to the detriment of lilt,result,thousands of highly competent technicians who are mechanical,who dont sound as if they are enjoying themselves,and who dont seem to understand that this is dance music,and who are bland.
ok, i've obviously not been clear enough in what I mean so to answer everyone who put questions to me
Phantom Button says
'The only time you need to worry about the soul being lost is if there are only soulless and not so good players left."
This is absolutely not true, it is time to worry when more and more soulless technical wizards are being churned out and praised by winning competitions and forming touring groups.
Uilleanified asks
"Whats 'soulful'?
Why do you think old players were 'soulful' ?
Today, does Cormac Breathnach pass your test?"
I've already answered the first two of those questions. As for Cormac Breathnach, I suppose he is a soulful player at times but his style of playing is far removed from the kind of players I mentioned. I think he along with Moving Hearts are the fathers of the trendy trad scene and to me this music sounds very dated and a bit bland and soulless at times, It's like cocktail party jazz or something, like Pat Metheny in his MOR 80's period playing trad! .
Sibhikes asks
"Can you be soulful but not a virtuoso?"
I suppose soulfulness as expressed in music is a form of vrituosity. My reference to virtuosity was more to do with technical instrument ability. Some of the older players didn't have as great a technical command of their instrument as many players have today, but they played with far more feeling, so of course you can be soulful without having virtuoso technical skills.
Joe CSS sums up what I said as thus
"Oh, a century ago people played with soul, with feeling, with expression, it had meaning, but now it's just technically brilliant but emotionally cold players who play reel after reel, much too fast of course, and with no soul."
Joe this is a complete distortion of what I said. I have mentioned that there are many players who do indeed have the feeling in their music, I'm just worried about the amount of technical monsters being churned out who seem to only know how to play in one monotonous way or as exact clones of Coleman and the like.
Joe your whole post speaks to me of an ostrich with its head in the sand, you seem to be saying "Everything's brilliant, Ireland is in a great state these days, while we are all much richer we certainly haven't been effected by commercialism, we've maintained our traditions perfectly without letting them be ruined by greed and selfishness", well if you think that's true you musn't know much about how Ireland has changed with all the money, sure there are positives but there are a lot of negatives.
"There are certainly more examples of good playing, even soulful playing, and they are much more accessible, then ever before in the history of the music." says Murph.
There are indeed reams of recordings in recent years which have examples of good playing but very few have examples of great playing. Very few recent recordings of younger players have grabbed me in the same way as recordings of older players and that is perhaps because now recordings are a commercial venture whereas most of the older recordings which I like are simply records of musicians playing for themselves rather than trying to impress an audience.
Martin I agree with you that expression of soul in music is an expression of all emotions and I never said quiet/melancholic players are the only ones to have this feeling. I mentioned Danny Meehan for instance who is the exact opposite to quiet/melancholic!
I hope you don't think I'm bunching you in with these emotionless technical wizards Martin, you are one of the few players of your age group I've seen who actually expresses themselves fully in their music and as a result as you well know some people just don't like your approach, this is a risk many people are afraid to take. Now all you have to do is ditch that piano accordion in favour of the pipes and you'll be sorted
hakanozel asks
'what about the kind of player whose aim is the exact OPPOSITE to putting in soul and emotion? What about those musicians you hear whose playing is SO sublime that they DISAPPEAR and all that is left is this transcendant music that sounds like it was plucked from the air?'
This is a strange definition, I can't think of any good player who doesn't put in soul and emotion, the kind of sublime transcendant music you are talking about requires the ultimate depth of soul and expression. Perhaps you are confusing flamboyancy with soulfulness. There are many performers (particularly in classical music) who put on a kind of fake emotional flamboyancy but no depth of feeling comes out of their playing.
I've never heard good music free of personality, I have heard players express music beautifully where it sounds free of over-the-top emotion and ego but to me this is the perfect expression of a soulful personality in music.
The soulless playing I'm refering to is far from transcendant and spiritual, it is dull, monotonous, without life.
And Andy@newcastle you make some very valid points regarding recording. To me many of today's recordings are over-reheearsed, over-polished studio 'perfections', I much prefer the one take, warts and all approach. Most of the great recordings in all genres are completely live takes or based on live takes and so the music sounds fresh and vital.
Perhaps this studio mentality is affecting sessions, for example I find it really boring when people play exact sets from well known recordings rather than spontaneously coming up with tunes. It's fine to start with a tune you learnt from a recording but surely you can come up with another tune to follow it!!!
Right I'm off to Feakle where I know I'll encounter some really soulful playing from the likes of Pat O'Connor, Mark Donnellan, Eoghan O'Sullivan, Breda Keville and of course Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill.
it's the gentrification of all forms of life. It was inevitable that it would happen to ITM, it's happening to everything else. It just won't happen to all of it everywhere (I hope).
Look at the Comhaltas site vids and you can see lots of expensive classical training - either directly or indirectly - but you can also see residual elements of what went before. But just because this is a dominant feature in the mainstream doesn't mean 'soul' is being lost across the board .... does it?
I'm neither pessimistic nor optimistic. I believe the ratio of the musicians with the "soul" to the musicians without the "soul" haven't changed much. We have as much garbage as gems.
The one thing about musicians with "soul" is that they seem to communicate directly to the listener rather than through a wall of received opinion and learned history.
Asking people to define it is barking up the wrong tree though. You either feel it or you don't.
On individuality, I'm not so hot on individual "ITM" musicians but there are number of fiddlers from Scottish and Northern Isles traditions whose playing I could recognise blindfolded across a crowded room.
As hakanozel suggests, less soulful or skilful musicians can still make good group music by surrendering themselves to the whole for that spiritual thing. Some - most - of the "soulful" individuals are good at that too, playing in a way that makes everything in a group or session sound better without standing out themselves. I've been to some sessions where the playing is amazingly good but seems mechanical to an outsider. This starts to lead back into the "performance?" debate but there are some sessions you feel like you don't want to be in because of that clinical sound
Organ beil has something when he speaks of people today forgetting this is dance music. I suspect a much higher proportion of players 100 years ago, say, would habitually play for dancers. Their playing would accordingly have developed lift and drive and the power to command continual attention from listeners/dancers.
So I suspect a lot of old music which may be rough-edged but has strong lift and drive and is able to command continual attention, is like this because the player often played for dancers - outside, in a house, in a hall, wherever. But I don't know enough about it to name names, or be sure of what I suggested in my second sentence.
frisbee maybe i can put it another way, which is maybe summed up in the quote "the ultimate aim of a musician is to get out of the way of the music." When you listen to great soulful musicians playing with soul and emotion you are listening to exactly that - great MUSICIANS. and theres nothing wrong with that - it makes the world go round. But occasionally u hear someone that has the gift of making you able just for a short while to stop hearing the musician, and just hear the music.and for me that is the rarest gift of all. I have to say i had this experience once watching Nigel Kennedy playing Bach-his performance was (to me) so far beyond great, virtuosic emotional playing that i forgot i was watching a world famous star and was just overwhelmed by the music.then he started talking and it was back to the real world with a bump!
put it another way.. the combination of notes and intervals in Shi Beg Shi Mor is intrinsically more beautiful than anyones performance of it, in the same way a tree is more beautiful than any photo or painting of a tree has ever been.
Or put another way, a musician is the servant of the music.Music is so much more than just a vehicle for mere mortals to use to 'express themselves'. ultimately, soul, passion, emotion, are impositions of the players personality on what stands alone very well without us thankyou very much!
btw before anyone points it out i am aware of the irony of me posting all this zen type stuff here and ranting about dippy hippys elsewhere!
First, as I get older, I get less doubtful about the existance of golden ages, because what I remember from my youth is different but not necessarily better than the world of today.
Agree that the soul of this music has a strong connection to dance, and it grieves me to see session players that have never accompanied a dancer, and dance schools relying on compact disks because the tempos are "more reliable" and the kids like the flashy arrangements better than the raw stuff they hear live.
But in the end, the commercialization of this music doesn't bother me. Author Theodore Sturgeon once said "90 percent of everything is c*r*a*p." And if that 90 percent of stuff in the public eye keeps musicians working and paid and earning money, and brings in new listeners who like what they hear, but are hungry to hear the more authentic roots of the music, and causes more impressionable youths to seek out a session with an instrument by their side, well, all the better. I don't think the commercial stuff squeezes the good stuff out, instead, it makes the pie bigger for everyone.
No harm in looking at it both ways, hakanozel. I can see where you're coming from but, to be honest, I think a lot of Irish music IS about personal interpretations, which therefore includes this nebulous soul quality.
Good post Al. Commercialisation can have different impacts, though. On the World Fleadh thread I mentioned that artists and bands can be put under commercial pressure and musical quality might thus suffer. But as someone else pointed out there's now money to be made in Trad music. That might be no bad thing.
When I was a younger lad, mad into athletics, cycling, camping and outdoor stuff, and maybe thought of as rather cranky on the estate I lived on, you had to pay relatively more for trainers a decent bike, a decent tent and so on. Now in UK you go along to a sports superstore like Decathlon, or surf the net for trainer bargains, whatever, and the result is kit is a whole lot cheaper. Why? Mass participation in these activities made them viable commercial opportunities, leading to more mass participation and so on....I'm not sure if this phenomenon has trickled its way down to cheaper Uillean pipes yet but we have to be optimistic!
I just love these tail-chasing discussions that can't ever be defined outside of somebody's personal preference. All this falls under the "They just don't make 'em like they used ta.." argument. One man's Miles Davis is another man's Kenny G. Or in this case, one man's Michael Coleman is another man's (fill in the blank of with your current trendy well-produced ITM group). This all reminds me of some scraggly metal head who proclaims with great angst "Metallica totally has sold out dude." Music gets stretched in all sorts of different directions and interpretations - listen to the ones you like and don't listen to the ones who you think have "no soul."
In my background in punk rock music, this entire concept is simply a part of life. In fact, the outsider and authentic feeling that comes from it is central to it as well. I think it's same here with the pure drop and your metal head.
We need to learn to embrace and enjoy our outsider status. If not for angry young men complaining of sell-outs wither the grumpy old men pining for days lost? Both are central to the tradition and both are vital in keeping the music authentic.
Much like slagging keeps one from getting a big head, this sort of mindset about 'popular' ITM, selling out, etc. has a positive, useful function in reminding us that it is Traditional music and not glitzy pop. However, the flashy trendy bands increase overall awareness. Ying and yang. Both sides serve useful functions in the preservation of the Tradition.
Another complicating factor to consider: do we have recordings of the "older" soulful musicians made when they were "young"? Did they have soul from the start or did they develop it over decades of experience? (I mean usually - I know there are exceptions to any attempt to generalize here.)
The musicians who are really into this music would know "The soul of the musician is *not* being lost." Just don't judge the state of this music by sampling a small number of commercial recordings and pub sessions.
"Another complicating factor to consider: do we have recordings of the "older" soulful musicians made when they were "young"? Did they have soul from the start or did they develop it over decades of experience? (I mean usually - I know there are exceptions to any attempt to generalize here.)"
Running out the door to a session here, but I can quickly answer this.
We have recordings of Seamus Ennis when he was young and I, at any rate, think it is much better piping than the recordings he made when he was in his forties or fifties. Alcoholism doesn't help your piping -- certainly doesn't put *soul" (whatever that means) into it.
For the record, frisbee......... I'm one, but not the only one, who believes that Pat Metheny plays with soul. If he decided to take on TRAD.... he'd play that soulfully too.
Just my opinion.
All this hogwash reminds me of a story a few years ago when the lead singer of some minor Scottish pop-rock group was asked to describe his style of music. "Well," he began, "I play this music from my soul, so I guess I'd have to call it Soul Music." Several established and knowledgeable music critics (an oxymoron if there ever was one) quickly pointed out to him that there already was a style of music called "Soul" and it was performed primarily by black Americans, and his music sounded nothing like that - therefore he would have to pick another descriptive name. Classic - and Rubbish.
As one of the soulful greats Frisbee, I know just what you mean.
As for Ireland becoming wealthier, that's 8% of Ireland becoming even more wealthy. Ireland is second only to the wealthy US of A when we look at developed countries with the biggest levels of poverty.
As we each assimilate preferred influences into our personal style, we become indistinct from the rest of the herd. But each little lost lamb jiggin' a tune, however derivatively, still has a soul. Baaaaaaaaaa.
But there again and on a lighter note, if you leave off the boots then there isn't any soul at all. I notice the best dancing is done in thick souled boots or clogs.
Quote: "Kevin notes that his style of playing is disappearing. "They seem to be losing the feel if it, from the old timers. And it has boiled down that...there's only going to be (playing in the style of) Matt Molloy or Seamus Tansey or some other guy...from all the (different) styles that have come down in the old days."
"You often heard the old people saying 'he put the nia into it', where nia means splendid nature in the Gaelic. A lot of these players that play so fast--they're not putting emphasis on any particular note. There's no room for heart. The heart is the main thing." - Kevin Henry "
There was an interesting point raised up there a bit - about the music serving the musician. Personally, I don't see artistic merit in traditional tunes - they simply weren't created for artistic reasons. The musicians manipulated them to achieve their own ends, the idea of showing the tunes for artistic reasons was never paramount, they wanted to play the tunes in the best way to get people to dance to them. That some of them may invoke emotion does not make that their defining factor - we aren't discussing Romantic period piano music here!
I still don't fully understand the question. By "soul" do you mean the lift and drive that makes the tunes appropriate for dancing ? Or do you mean some expression of the personality making the music? Or the idea of the musician considering themselves free from artistic critisism? Or something else entirely?
Just joined this site and have been checking out the discussions for the past week or so and this seems to be the longest of all I have read. Good job, Frisbee!You have gotten us all to dig deep and search into our own souls in an attempt to evaluate and reflect on your initial statement. That in itself is a wonderful thing ! We all know what you are talking about "soul"--but it becomes somewhat difficult to define--without mentioning particular names of artists . It also leads us to many more questions. I would have to say that the soul of the musician is not being lost --and agree that there have always been those who are extremely gifted in letting the personality of soul to shine while playing--- and those who are not. Lucky thing that the style or genre of music has a soul of it's own for musicians who are not as good at exhibiting their own.
If we were going to worry about how the commercial productions of Irish music and dance are portrayed and how it might be detrimental to the music it would already be a lost cause. I saw a clip on YouTube from a Hollywood movie where everyone was in green costumes and dancers were doing back flips. The movie looked like it might have been made in the 50s. That movie and others like it haven't sucked the soul out of the music, and neither has productions like River Dance. Touring hotshot musicians are touring hotshot musicians, but they don't have the power to ruin the music either. The music is bigger than you or I or any of those things -- it will prevail.
"Or put another way, a musician is the servant of the music.Music is so much more than just a vehicle for mere mortals to use to 'express themselves'. ultimately, soul, passion, emotion, are impositions of the players personality on what stands alone very well without us thankyou very much!"
I have to disagree with this one - if you believe this I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what traditional music is. Music is ultimately about people - playing it, dancing to it, singing it. Si Bheag Si Mhor might look perfect on paper, but what gives it life is the musician playing it - their expression and interpretation of the tune, their intonation, ornamentation, rhythym and the other countless techniques and nuances. It lives in the sound of air travelling through a flute or vibrating reeds or plucking strings or breath over vocal chords - and all the infinite subtlies and variations in each one of these ways of generating sound.
Without these things, the music simply doesn't exist - it's dots on a page (a wholly unsuitable system for communication trad music), or an abstract concept in someone's head.
I played a couple of polkas for my niece and nephew the other day - two and four respectively. They loved them - they danced and smiled and really enjoyed the tunes - a spontaneous reaction to the music. It didn't matter that I'm a crap player and they jump about instead of doing the proper steps - they instinctively recognised and enganged with the 'soul' of the music.
Good point Sugarfoot, folk music is for folks! Give me kids in he audience any day, they don't have to act cool, or behave a certain way, they are generally the first listeners to start moving to the music.
When we play for weddings we always become a kid magnet. Sometimes the dancing and carrying on gets more attention than the Bride and Groom. Cameras suddenly appear in large numbers. Kids will have all sorts of spontaneous responses from doing circle dances to rolling around on the floor to the music. I suppose they're responding to the soul of the music.
I think anyone complaining about a loss or lack of soul is merely old and jaundiced.
Remember when you first heard......well, it barely matters who, whoever it was that moved you, turned you into the obsessive ITM maniac that you are today ? That was in part because it was NEW to you. Now you are so familiar with all the styles and nuances it takes something more to achieve the same effect. That is all. And that is why you can still get the same effect with a fresh audience.
"The soul of the musician is being lost".
"The soul of the musician is being lost".
"We're trying to avoid a commercial presentation, and give musicians a chance to go back into the roots of the music for a night."
This is the ethos of the organisers of the Masters of Tradition Festival in Bantry, which seems to be the exact opposite ethos to the World Blah organisers.
So I put it to you, how many Irish traditional musicians play with real soul nowadays?
How many players do you know that match the effortless natural soulful playing of the old greats like Seamus Ennis, Willie Clancy, Padraig O'Keeffe, Julia Clifford, Denis Murphy, John Doherty, Con Cassidy, Paddy Fahey, Paddy Canny, Tommy Potts to name but a very few.
How many of the top players of the current generation have a similar sense of the music? I can think of a few but only very few are appreciated outside small circles.
Is it simply a fact that ITM needs its rough edges to be smoothed out in order for it to become 'accessible' or have people just become lazy and more interested in the commercial potential of the music?
I've just been listening to the recent CD release of the late great Donegal fiddler Con Cassidy, his playing is edgy, rough and experimental but all the better for it. If anyone tried to play like him in an average session today they'd likely get scornful looks.
I really wish more trad musicians would get deep into the music like this, play from their heart and soul and not be afraid to unleash their personality on the music in the way that say Danny Meehan changes from a hushed dynamic to suddenly unleash a barrage of aggressive playing.
Not only is the soul of the musician being lost, in my opinion the true spirit of ITM is being eaten up by the Celtic Tiger in order to line the pockets of publicans, politicians and promoters.
Discuss........
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
" If anyone tried to play like him in an average session today they'd likely get scornful looks." ~ not just 'today', Con knew it in his own time...
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
"Con Cassidy: Traditional Music from Donegal"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2660
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
How exactly do you define the "soul" of the music. You don't mean rough and edgy, do you?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
ah ... things were so much better in the old days.
Surely referring to the 'stars' of the past sort of eats up your own argument?
Probably (I know there are) there are loads of players with 'soul' - you've just not been hearing them perhaps?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by pavlf
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Smoothness of playing does not imply commercialization nor does roughness imply respect for the tradition. Many young musicians have a rough edge to their playing while many older musicians have a smooth, polished sound. You haven't made your case that these qualities are in any way related beyond stating that they are.
Why does Con Cassidy get to be experimental but contemporary musicians do not? Because he has a "rough" sound? Why shouldn't musicians strive to improve their technique to their hearts' content? For the very best, it comes along naturally. Take Michael Coleman, for instance--some very smooth, flawless playing right there if you ask me.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by mcdevincabe
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
it doesn't have to be rough and edgy to be soulful, Paddy Fahey plays with a beautifully clear and graceful tone.
By the "soul" of the music I mean players who put their heart and soul into the music in such a way that when you hear them play you can feel they are telling you something about themselves and also bringing out the meaning of the music.
I think a lot of people just reel off reel after reel these days without a sense of what the music is about. It's not just about dancing, you only have to look at the slow airs for proof of that, but for the dance music it expresses so much more than dancing.
There are elements to all the musicians I mentioned which would be considered rough by some people, in other words there are concepts of articulation, rhythm and tuning which might be considered wrong by the uninitiated whereras the more you look into it the more you see that it is these things which give the music its soul, by taking away these 'rough edges' you are taking away the soul of the music.....and before anyone says anything there's a huge difference between the 'rough edges' of these musicians and the 'rough edges' of bad or moderate musicians. If an old fiddler plays scratchy and out of tune and rhythm they aren't automatically great old fiddle masters!
The great players used certain forms of articulation, tuning and rhythmic phrasing deliberately to bring out the emotions they wished to express. When I say they did this deliberately I don't mean they contrived it, for the most part these are just sounds that came out of them naturally whilst they were expressing themselves.
So that is the soul I am talking about, comprendé?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
If that's what you mean by, "soul," then you have nothing to worry about.as far as it being lost. There are many current and young players with that sort of soul today. Next topic...
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
And just to show you I do think some players play with soul today here is a list of living people who play with the sense of soul I'm talking about
Caoimhín O Raghallaigh, Martin Hayes, Breda Keville, Mick O'Brien, John Carty, Matt Molloy, Harry Bradley, Charlie Lennon, James Byrne. I could go on but that's not really my point. Perhaps I didn't express it properly.
I think before the music got so popular and commercialised the vast majority of players both virtuoso and average had the sense of soul I'm talking about. People just played it for the fact that they loved the music and they could express themselves through it. Now that Ireland has become a 'successful European country' with tons of money I wonder is the soul of the music being lost.
Is ITM simply another hobby for middle-class parents to send their kids to do rather than an essential part of life. Is it becoming a form of disposable pop music?
I know there are many players out there with a lot of soul but I've come across an awful lot of players who express little or nothing in their playing, I would guess that 100 years ago even the average fiddler had a great sense of expression.
There are many technically astounding musicians today but very few of them seem to be able to match this technical ability with emotional ability, this is the soul of the music I'm talking about.
Is it not worse to be technically brilliant and emotionally cold rather than technically average and full of soul? Only a few players can reach the heights of being both technically brilliant and full of soul but for everyone else surely it's more important to develop their expressive side? This is something which I see missing from many competition winners and all those dazzlingly quick players you'll find in sessions all over the place. They think it's simply enough to play this music at the same quick tempo, at the same loud dynamic and with the same clean articulation. The truly great players know this is wrong and I suspect that 100 years ago this kind of monotonous approach wasn't even considered.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
one final point, how many players do you know that really do sound like individuals, like themselves rather than clones of Coleman, McGoldrick, Molloy, Hayes etc. That's another thing that makes the great musicians stand out, they were all individuals, in fact the more you look into ITM in the past (and I can particularly refer to Donegal music here), the less you see a particular regional style than you see many diverse individual styles.
It seems to me the influence of some individuals has been just too strong so that now we have the Sligo style (Coleman/Morrison imitators), Donegal style (Doherty/Altan imitators), Clare style (Clancy/Casey imitators), Sliabh Lúchra style (O'Keeffe/Daly imitators) and yes believe it or not Manchester style (McGoldrick/Donnelly/John Joe imitators).
Before this, certainly in Donegal anyway, musicians seemed to strive to just sound like themselves, they listened to and learnt from others but they would never try to exactly imitate Coleman like they were some tribute act.
Anyway I think I've made my point at this stage. So I won't say anymore on the topic.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
[before the music got so popular and commercialised the vast majority of players both virtuoso and average had the sense of soul I'm talking about.]
maybe. maybe not. we don't really know, do we? i'm not a fan of the "trained monkey" syndrome turning out super-fast, super-technical itm kiddiwinks who play with all the feeling of automatons, but i'm feeling cynical today, and today i suspect that percentage-wise, the fraction who played with great emotional feeling in the past was probably not much different from that of today.
in the classical music world, every year, conservatories turn out plenty of "trained monkeys" who play with great virtuosity and scant imagination or deep feeling, plus a few deeply moving players. in itm, yes, today we have larger numbers misusing the, er, "exciting" paradigm borrowed from pop music and, in the words of joe burke, "beating the hell out of the tune," but the percentage of emotionally touching, moving players, i'll bet has not changed that much. a bunch can be heard on the RTE "bloom of youth" archive page, and i could add a slew of names to those on your list.
the editor of Coagula, a contrarian art journal in my state, published a highly entertaining anthology of his essays titled "Most Art Sucks." i have found this to be true across the board metier-wise, culture-wise, and time-wise.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
There were probably players in the old days that played without soul as well, but we haven't heard about them. There will always be good and not so good players along with the very good and soulful players. The only time you need to worry about the soul being lost is if there are only soulless and not so good players left. But that's not the case as you yourself have clearly pointed out.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
I was rsponding to frisbee in my last post.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
i play with soul and feeling in the sessions i go to, and i used to get bad looks from some of the snobbier people. but now, a lot of people are starting to come out and put their own spin on the music. i just cant play without feeling or my own style, ITM can get a little repetitive and boring without some originality in it.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by pipersgrip
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Whats 'soulful'?
Why do you think old players were 'soulful' ?
Today, does Cormac Breathnach pass your test?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Can you be soulful but not a virtuoso?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Can you be virtuous if you sell your soul?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by GaryAMartin
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
This is probably the one thing in ITM that I get annoyed about - people saying how much better it was back then. "Oh, a century ago people played with soul, with feeling, with expression, it had meaning, but now it's just technically brilliant but emotionally cold players who play reel after reel, much too fast of course, and with no soul."
That is so naïve!! The only evidence we've got of 100 years ago is some very bad recordings of very few players. You can't say what the general attitude was from just that. Today the music is much more popular and widespread than back then, with millions of recordings at hand, CDs being churned out left, right and centre by anyone who fancies it. And that's a great thing. Of course loads of them have little or no soul! But in the "old days", recording was really expensive and hard to come by, so only the best got recorded.
As to the average Joe playing monotonously "nowadays" -- "I suspect that 100 years ago this kind of monotonous approach wasn't even considered." What?!! Of course it was considered! Of course people played monotonously in sessions back then! Not least because in a session, the last thing on your mind is subtle inflection and feeling. But even in solo performing - the truly great players do indeed know this is wrong, and I bet there are a lot more truly great players around now than there ever have been at any one time before this, if only because it is so much more popular now, making the distribution wider.
How many players do I know that really sound like individuals? All of them. Everyone I know that plays ITM sounds exactly like themselves. They have influences of everyone they admire, and in some of them you can hear their influences more strongly than in others. And that IS who they are, playing-wise. What else can influence a person's playing? Their genes?
Or is your issue about Ireland becoming richer? Well face it, dude, that's a good thing. And how does a poorer country make for more soulful playing? A farmer might express the tragedy and suffering caused by the failure of his crop through his playing of Drowsy Maggie? Commercialism does not affect sessions. It does not affect the way people play their instrument, except in a good way - I might really like the drums and bass that Mike McGoldrick puts into his CDs, and strive to become more like the fantastic player he is. And it brings the Music to a wider audience, some of whom may become the next Tommy Peoples or something.
Sorry, but I think that Irish Traditional Music is in a better state now than it has ever been.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that someday people will describe right now as a "golden age" for ITM and lament about how much more "soulful" the players were in the early years of the 21st Century. There are certainly more examples of good playing, even soulful playing, and they are much more accessible, then ever before in the history of the music.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Murph
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
I know what you mean frisbee. I'm not sure if it has to do with ages or generations but their are players and bands that are wonderful musicians but dont put soul or energy into it. Has anyone heard the band Gan Bua? They have soul, you can feel it right through the music. Another band from oberlin college in the states played for a dance and I've never heard such feeling in music. I'm tired and running a bit of a fever so its time for the rambling to end and the brandy to heal. Night all!
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Aodh Rúadh
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
ok... it's 7am and i haven't read the half of this but one thing that strikes me is that almost always, it's quiet/ melancholic people who are thought to be the sole possesors of soul. the human soul posseses a wider range than the mono emotional. i feel that the real musicians are those who can explore and express the many aspects of their personality/soul... from negative to POSITIVE and all which lays in between... of the listed, i think that tommy potts and con cassidy are possibly the only two to really having achieved that (being aware of some of their own personality traits)
mt
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by martin t
Also
if the soul is the embodyment of ones personality 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul' then as there are some personalities who we don't get on with, isn't it possible that there are some personalities that we don't appreciate just because they're on a different vibe to us? i think this is a largely overlooked element of this subject....
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by martin t
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
I agree wih your last statement, martin t - about different vibes.
Personally, I think that as long as people are playing music, we'll always have music that is soulful in one way or another.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by morning star
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Many of today's players (including many of us amateurs) put just as much "soul" into the music as ever. But in many cases, the music is no longer an integral part of the community--and that may make it seem "soul-less"--disconnected from its own roots.
Mind you, that wholeness of music/community still exists in some places, and at some times. But radio, tv, recordings, ease of travel, etc. have probably forever changed the role of this music within the communities where it still lives. So it doesn't have the integrity or gravitas it once did.
And I agree wholeheartedly with Martin T's comment above about musicians who express happiness and joy with lots of soul, as well as sorrow and the whole range of emotions when they play this music. I'd add Bobby Casey to the list of often joyful players with soul, and John Carty, and Conal O'Grada, and Cathal McConnell, and Mairead Mhaonaigh and most of the friends I play with, and Joanie Madden, and.....
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Since we've started on definitions of "soul" which I think is essential and thanks martin, we have to take into account *how* the expression of this "soul" is perceived, ie, subjective interpretation. One man's or mna's soulful player might be another man's robot. Someone mentioned Joe Burke earlier. As much as I admire and respect his playing, I don't find it particularly soulful. Same with Kevin Burke (sorry Will!). Whereas there is something indefinably soulful in the playing of Tansey, Willie Clancy, Bobby Casey and Joe Cooley...to ME, anyway.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
what about the kind of player whose aim is the exact OPPOSITE to putting in soul and emotion? What about those musicians you hear whose playing is SO sublime that they DISAPPEAR and all that is left is this transcendant music that sounds like it was plucked from the air? To hear someone playing with fire and soul and energy is a wonderful thing, but to be in the prescence of a musician who is able to put themselves to one side so all you hear is music free of personality, soul, emotion, ego..thats when u can genuinely start using the term "spiritual" in relation to music..doesnt happen very often!
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by hakanozel
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Frisbee, are you mainly talking about CDs or live performances? These days, with the development of recording technology, it's fairly usual that what you hear on a CD will be one take of a huge number - presuming it's not a compound of various takes or recorded in isolation to a guide track over the headphones. So, a lot of the energy thats there when you walk in to record is gone by the time you've played a set 10 times back to back. Going back 100 years, when recording technology was the wax cylinder, it was pretty much one take only.
If you're talking about live performances, I can't comment - I'm too young to have ever seen any of the old masters.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Andy V
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
That's what strikes me as well, Andy. The 'loss of soul' as people here perceive it surely has to do with the modern production values that go it making CD's etc. There is the means to smooth out the rough edges and fix the bits that don't sound 'quite right'. So sound engineers figure .. if it's there, then why not use it? Whereas older recordings are often 'one off's', like a session recording you'd make now. So if you take some of the musicans whose recordings you think lack soul and listen to them live, you might have a completely different view..
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Technique forTechnique sake does not make good music,the standard now technically is higher than ever,
but partly due to Comhaltas there is an over emphasis on over ornamentation, to the detriment of lilt,result,thousands of highly competent technicians who are mechanical,who dont sound as if they are enjoying themselves,and who dont seem to understand that this is dance music,and who are bland.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Dick Miles
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
ok, i've obviously not been clear enough in what I mean so to answer everyone who put questions to me
Phantom Button says
'The only time you need to worry about the soul being lost is if there are only soulless and not so good players left."
This is absolutely not true, it is time to worry when more and more soulless technical wizards are being churned out and praised by winning competitions and forming touring groups.
Uilleanified asks
"Whats 'soulful'?
Why do you think old players were 'soulful' ?
Today, does Cormac Breathnach pass your test?"
I've already answered the first two of those questions. As for Cormac Breathnach, I suppose he is a soulful player at times but his style of playing is far removed from the kind of players I mentioned. I think he along with Moving Hearts are the fathers of the trendy trad scene and to me this music sounds very dated and a bit bland and soulless at times, It's like cocktail party jazz or something, like Pat Metheny in his MOR 80's period playing trad! .
Sibhikes asks
"Can you be soulful but not a virtuoso?"
I suppose soulfulness as expressed in music is a form of vrituosity. My reference to virtuosity was more to do with technical instrument ability. Some of the older players didn't have as great a technical command of their instrument as many players have today, but they played with far more feeling, so of course you can be soulful without having virtuoso technical skills.
Joe CSS sums up what I said as thus
"Oh, a century ago people played with soul, with feeling, with expression, it had meaning, but now it's just technically brilliant but emotionally cold players who play reel after reel, much too fast of course, and with no soul."
Joe this is a complete distortion of what I said. I have mentioned that there are many players who do indeed have the feeling in their music, I'm just worried about the amount of technical monsters being churned out who seem to only know how to play in one monotonous way or as exact clones of Coleman and the like.
Joe your whole post speaks to me of an ostrich with its head in the sand, you seem to be saying "Everything's brilliant, Ireland is in a great state these days, while we are all much richer we certainly haven't been effected by commercialism, we've maintained our traditions perfectly without letting them be ruined by greed and selfishness", well if you think that's true you musn't know much about how Ireland has changed with all the money, sure there are positives but there are a lot of negatives.
"There are certainly more examples of good playing, even soulful playing, and they are much more accessible, then ever before in the history of the music." says Murph.
There are indeed reams of recordings in recent years which have examples of good playing but very few have examples of great playing. Very few recent recordings of younger players have grabbed me in the same way as recordings of older players and that is perhaps because now recordings are a commercial venture whereas most of the older recordings which I like are simply records of musicians playing for themselves rather than trying to impress an audience.
Martin I agree with you that expression of soul in music is an expression of all emotions and I never said quiet/melancholic players are the only ones to have this feeling. I mentioned Danny Meehan for instance who is the exact opposite to quiet/melancholic!
I hope you don't think I'm bunching you in with these emotionless technical wizards Martin, you are one of the few players of your age group I've seen who actually expresses themselves fully in their music and as a result as you well know some people just don't like your approach, this is a risk many people are afraid to take. Now all you have to do is ditch that piano accordion in favour of the pipes and you'll be sorted
hakanozel asks
'what about the kind of player whose aim is the exact OPPOSITE to putting in soul and emotion? What about those musicians you hear whose playing is SO sublime that they DISAPPEAR and all that is left is this transcendant music that sounds like it was plucked from the air?'
This is a strange definition, I can't think of any good player who doesn't put in soul and emotion, the kind of sublime transcendant music you are talking about requires the ultimate depth of soul and expression. Perhaps you are confusing flamboyancy with soulfulness. There are many performers (particularly in classical music) who put on a kind of fake emotional flamboyancy but no depth of feeling comes out of their playing.
I've never heard good music free of personality, I have heard players express music beautifully where it sounds free of over-the-top emotion and ego but to me this is the perfect expression of a soulful personality in music.
The soulless playing I'm refering to is far from transcendant and spiritual, it is dull, monotonous, without life.
And Andy@newcastle you make some very valid points regarding recording. To me many of today's recordings are over-reheearsed, over-polished studio 'perfections', I much prefer the one take, warts and all approach. Most of the great recordings in all genres are completely live takes or based on live takes and so the music sounds fresh and vital.
Perhaps this studio mentality is affecting sessions, for example I find it really boring when people play exact sets from well known recordings rather than spontaneously coming up with tunes. It's fine to start with a tune you learnt from a recording but surely you can come up with another tune to follow it!!!
Right I'm off to Feakle where I know I'll encounter some really soulful playing from the likes of Pat O'Connor, Mark Donnellan, Eoghan O'Sullivan, Breda Keville and of course Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
it's the gentrification of all forms of life. It was inevitable that it would happen to ITM, it's happening to everything else. It just won't happen to all of it everywhere (I hope).
Look at the Comhaltas site vids and you can see lots of expensive classical training - either directly or indirectly - but you can also see residual elements of what went before. But just because this is a dominant feature in the mainstream doesn't mean 'soul' is being lost across the board .... does it?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by pavlf
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
I'm neither pessimistic nor optimistic. I believe the ratio of the musicians with the "soul" to the musicians without the "soul" haven't changed much. We have as much garbage as gems.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by slainte
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
The one thing about musicians with "soul" is that they seem to communicate directly to the listener rather than through a wall of received opinion and learned history.
Asking people to define it is barking up the wrong tree though. You either feel it or you don't.
On individuality, I'm not so hot on individual "ITM" musicians but there are number of fiddlers from Scottish and Northern Isles traditions whose playing I could recognise blindfolded across a crowded room.
As hakanozel suggests, less soulful or skilful musicians can still make good group music by surrendering themselves to the whole for that spiritual thing. Some - most - of the "soulful" individuals are good at that too, playing in a way that makes everything in a group or session sound better without standing out themselves. I've been to some sessions where the playing is amazingly good but seems mechanical to an outsider. This starts to lead back into the "performance?" debate but there are some sessions you feel like you don't want to be in because of that clinical sound
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Bren
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Organ beil has something when he speaks of people today forgetting this is dance music. I suspect a much higher proportion of players 100 years ago, say, would habitually play for dancers. Their playing would accordingly have developed lift and drive and the power to command continual attention from listeners/dancers.
So I suspect a lot of old music which may be rough-edged but has strong lift and drive and is able to command continual attention, is like this because the player often played for dancers - outside, in a house, in a hall, wherever. But I don't know enough about it to name names, or be sure of what I suggested in my second sentence.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by nicholas
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
frisbee maybe i can put it another way, which is maybe summed up in the quote "the ultimate aim of a musician is to get out of the way of the music." When you listen to great soulful musicians playing with soul and emotion you are listening to exactly that - great MUSICIANS. and theres nothing wrong with that - it makes the world go round. But occasionally u hear someone that has the gift of making you able just for a short while to stop hearing the musician, and just hear the music.and for me that is the rarest gift of all. I have to say i had this experience once watching Nigel Kennedy playing Bach-his performance was (to me) so far beyond great, virtuosic emotional playing that i forgot i was watching a world famous star and was just overwhelmed by the music.then he started talking and it was back to the real world with a bump!
put it another way.. the combination of notes and intervals in Shi Beg Shi Mor is intrinsically more beautiful than anyones performance of it, in the same way a tree is more beautiful than any photo or painting of a tree has ever been.
Or put another way, a musician is the servant of the music.Music is so much more than just a vehicle for mere mortals to use to 'express themselves'. ultimately, soul, passion, emotion, are impositions of the players personality on what stands alone very well without us thankyou very much!
btw before anyone points it out i am aware of the irony of me posting all this zen type stuff here and ranting about dippy hippys elsewhere!
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by hakanozel
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
First, as I get older, I get less doubtful about the existance of golden ages, because what I remember from my youth is different but not necessarily better than the world of today.
Agree that the soul of this music has a strong connection to dance, and it grieves me to see session players that have never accompanied a dancer, and dance schools relying on compact disks because the tempos are "more reliable" and the kids like the flashy arrangements better than the raw stuff they hear live.
But in the end, the commercialization of this music doesn't bother me. Author Theodore Sturgeon once said "90 percent of everything is c*r*a*p." And if that 90 percent of stuff in the public eye keeps musicians working and paid and earning money, and brings in new listeners who like what they hear, but are hungry to hear the more authentic roots of the music, and causes more impressionable youths to seek out a session with an instrument by their side, well, all the better. I don't think the commercial stuff squeezes the good stuff out, instead, it makes the pie bigger for everyone.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
No harm in looking at it both ways, hakanozel. I can see where you're coming from but, to be honest, I think a lot of Irish music IS about personal interpretations, which therefore includes this nebulous soul quality.
Good post Al. Commercialisation can have different impacts, though. On the World Fleadh thread I mentioned that artists and bands can be put under commercial pressure and musical quality might thus suffer. But as someone else pointed out there's now money to be made in Trad music. That might be no bad thing.
When I was a younger lad, mad into athletics, cycling, camping and outdoor stuff, and maybe thought of as rather cranky on the estate I lived on, you had to pay relatively more for trainers a decent bike, a decent tent and so on. Now in UK you go along to a sports superstore like Decathlon, or surf the net for trainer bargains, whatever, and the result is kit is a whole lot cheaper. Why? Mass participation in these activities made them viable commercial opportunities, leading to more mass participation and so on....I'm not sure if this phenomenon has trickled its way down to cheaper Uillean pipes yet but we have to be optimistic!
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
I just love these tail-chasing discussions that can't ever be defined outside of somebody's personal preference. All this falls under the "They just don't make 'em like they used ta.." argument. One man's Miles Davis is another man's Kenny G. Or in this case, one man's Michael Coleman is another man's (fill in the blank of with your current trendy well-produced ITM group). This all reminds me of some scraggly metal head who proclaims with great angst "Metallica totally has sold out dude." Music gets stretched in all sorts of different directions and interpretations - listen to the ones you like and don't listen to the ones who you think have "no soul."
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Nutter, excellent comparison to the metal head.
In my background in punk rock music, this entire concept is simply a part of life. In fact, the outsider and authentic feeling that comes from it is central to it as well. I think it's same here with the pure drop and your metal head.
We need to learn to embrace and enjoy our outsider status. If not for angry young men complaining of sell-outs wither the grumpy old men pining for days lost? Both are central to the tradition and both are vital in keeping the music authentic.
Much like slagging keeps one from getting a big head, this sort of mindset about 'popular' ITM, selling out, etc. has a positive, useful function in reminding us that it is Traditional music and not glitzy pop. However, the flashy trendy bands increase overall awareness. Ying and yang. Both sides serve useful functions in the preservation of the Tradition.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Another complicating factor to consider: do we have recordings of the "older" soulful musicians made when they were "young"? Did they have soul from the start or did they develop it over decades of experience? (I mean usually - I know there are exceptions to any attempt to generalize here.)
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by GaryAMartin
O Sole Mio
"We're trying to avoid a commercial presentation, and give musicians a chance to go back into the roots of the music for a night."
Ah so the gigs are free then? And the musicians are doing it for the lurve of the music?
'We've got out of the way of the music. But please buy our CD'.
One way of putting plenty of sole in your music is to bash your foot on the floor as loudly as possible.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by continuo
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
The musicians who are really into this music would know "The soul of the musician is *not* being lost." Just don't judge the state of this music by sampling a small number of commercial recordings and pub sessions.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by slainte
You want "soul" ?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14707
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Kenny
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
"Another complicating factor to consider: do we have recordings of the "older" soulful musicians made when they were "young"? Did they have soul from the start or did they develop it over decades of experience? (I mean usually - I know there are exceptions to any attempt to generalize here.)"
Running out the door to a session here, but I can quickly answer this.
We have recordings of Seamus Ennis when he was young and I, at any rate, think it is much better piping than the recordings he made when he was in his forties or fifties. Alcoholism doesn't help your piping -- certainly doesn't put *soul" (whatever that means) into it.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by DrSilverSpear
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
oh, no, don't mention addiction and its wretched effects on artistry---this is itm, and we're all supposed to pretend that phenomenon doesn't exist!
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
For the record, frisbee......... I'm one, but not the only one, who believes that Pat Metheny plays with soul. If he decided to take on TRAD.... he'd play that soulfully too.
Just my opinion.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by morning star
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
All this hogwash reminds me of a story a few years ago when the lead singer of some minor Scottish pop-rock group was asked to describe his style of music. "Well," he began, "I play this music from my soul, so I guess I'd have to call it Soul Music." Several established and knowledgeable music critics (an oxymoron if there ever was one) quickly pointed out to him that there already was a style of music called "Soul" and it was performed primarily by black Americans, and his music sounded nothing like that - therefore he would have to pick another descriptive name. Classic - and Rubbish.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
As one of the soulful greats Frisbee, I know just what you mean.
As for Ireland becoming wealthier, that's 8% of Ireland becoming even more wealthy. Ireland is second only to the wealthy US of A when we look at developed countries with the biggest levels of poverty.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Hey, what if James Brown had played the pipes?
Cool...
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Joe CSS - Then Papa would indeed have a brand new bag...
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
As we each assimilate preferred influences into our personal style, we become indistinct from the rest of the herd. But each little lost lamb jiggin' a tune, however derivatively, still has a soul. Baaaaaaaaaa.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by drone
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
But there again and on a lighter note, if you leave off the boots then there isn't any soul at all. I notice the best dancing is done in thick souled boots or clogs.
;0)
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Sheep, or lambs, do not congregate in herds, but flocks. A rather woolly metaphor, drone, don't you think?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Quote: "Kevin notes that his style of playing is disappearing. "They seem to be losing the feel if it, from the old timers. And it has boiled down that...there's only going to be (playing in the style of) Matt Molloy or Seamus Tansey or some other guy...from all the (different) styles that have come down in the old days."
"You often heard the old people saying 'he put the nia into it', where nia means splendid nature in the Gaelic. A lot of these players that play so fast--they're not putting emphasis on any particular note. There's no room for heart. The heart is the main thing." - Kevin Henry "
http://www.philadelphiaceiligroup.org/philadelphia_ceili_group/2007/08/kevin-henry.html
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
There was an interesting point raised up there a bit - about the music serving the musician. Personally, I don't see artistic merit in traditional tunes - they simply weren't created for artistic reasons. The musicians manipulated them to achieve their own ends, the idea of showing the tunes for artistic reasons was never paramount, they wanted to play the tunes in the best way to get people to dance to them. That some of them may invoke emotion does not make that their defining factor - we aren't discussing Romantic period piano music here!
I still don't fully understand the question. By "soul" do you mean the lift and drive that makes the tunes appropriate for dancing ? Or do you mean some expression of the personality making the music? Or the idea of the musician considering themselves free from artistic critisism? Or something else entirely?
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Andy V
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
The answer to all of your questions, Andy from Newcastle, is YES. Confusing isn't it.
# Posted on August 8th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
42. No question.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Murph
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
That's the problem...
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Just joined this site and have been checking out the discussions for the past week or so and this seems to be the longest of all I have read. Good job, Frisbee!You have gotten us all to dig deep and search into our own souls in an attempt to evaluate and reflect on your initial statement. That in itself is a wonderful thing ! We all know what you are talking about "soul"--but it becomes somewhat difficult to define--without mentioning particular names of artists . It also leads us to many more questions. I would have to say that the soul of the musician is not being lost --and agree that there have always been those who are extremely gifted in letting the personality of soul to shine while playing--- and those who are not. Lucky thing that the style or genre of music has a soul of it's own for musicians who are not as good at exhibiting their own.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by zinnia
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
If we were going to worry about how the commercial productions of Irish music and dance are portrayed and how it might be detrimental to the music it would already be a lost cause. I saw a clip on YouTube from a Hollywood movie where everyone was in green costumes and dancers were doing back flips. The movie looked like it might have been made in the 50s. That movie and others like it haven't sucked the soul out of the music, and neither has productions like River Dance. Touring hotshot musicians are touring hotshot musicians, but they don't have the power to ruin the music either. The music is bigger than you or I or any of those things -- it will prevail.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
"Or put another way, a musician is the servant of the music.Music is so much more than just a vehicle for mere mortals to use to 'express themselves'. ultimately, soul, passion, emotion, are impositions of the players personality on what stands alone very well without us thankyou very much!"
I have to disagree with this one - if you believe this I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what traditional music is. Music is ultimately about people - playing it, dancing to it, singing it. Si Bheag Si Mhor might look perfect on paper, but what gives it life is the musician playing it - their expression and interpretation of the tune, their intonation, ornamentation, rhythym and the other countless techniques and nuances. It lives in the sound of air travelling through a flute or vibrating reeds or plucking strings or breath over vocal chords - and all the infinite subtlies and variations in each one of these ways of generating sound.
Without these things, the music simply doesn't exist - it's dots on a page (a wholly unsuitable system for communication trad music), or an abstract concept in someone's head.
I played a couple of polkas for my niece and nephew the other day - two and four respectively. They loved them - they danced and smiled and really enjoyed the tunes - a spontaneous reaction to the music. It didn't matter that I'm a crap player and they jump about instead of doing the proper steps - they instinctively recognised and enganged with the 'soul' of the music.
And that's what it's all about.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Good point Sugarfoot, folk music is for folks! Give me kids in he audience any day, they don't have to act cool, or behave a certain way, they are generally the first listeners to start moving to the music.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Kids have souls too!
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by morning star
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
Well put, Sugarfoot Jack. Exactly my sentiments and elaborates clearly what I briefly mentioned above.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
When we play for weddings we always become a kid magnet. Sometimes the dancing and carrying on gets more attention than the Bride and Groom. Cameras suddenly appear in large numbers. Kids will have all sorts of spontaneous responses from doing circle dances to rolling around on the floor to the music. I suppose they're responding to the soul of the music.
# Posted on August 9th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: "The soul of the musician is being lost".
I think anyone complaining about a loss or lack of soul is merely old and jaundiced.
Remember when you first heard......well, it barely matters who, whoever it was that moved you, turned you into the obsessive ITM maniac that you are today ? That was in part because it was NEW to you. Now you are so familiar with all the styles and nuances it takes something more to achieve the same effect. That is all. And that is why you can still get the same effect with a fresh audience.
# Posted on August 10th 2007 by Guernsey Pete