Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Another discussion earlier today made me think of this.
In my opinion, it's a common mistake--speaking as someone who made this same mistake for years--to place too much emphasis on intonation, and not enough emphasis on rhythm in traditional music. This is most common from those of us that came to trad from a classical background, where rhythm is commonly tweaked (even abused) for dramatic effect, and "perfect" intonation is a prerequisite to playing in public:
Instead, I have come to believe/realize that most good traditional musicians tend to prefer to reverse those priorities; holding onto rhythm tightly, and taking liberties with intonation instead. Some of the reasons for taking liberties with intonation are mechanical (eg: pipers and flute players tend to have a very different idea of what an f-natural sounds like than accordions do), and some are by preference; fiddlers like Paddy Canny, Paddy Fahy, and Tommy Peoples use slides, and many will deliberately fudge certain notes for effect (and it sounds great)!
Have you ever found yourself at a session that felt like it was dragging until someone else sat down and *lifted* it? Odds are, it was his/her quality of rhythm that made the difference, not his/her intonation.
Now mind you, I'm not talking about maintaining tempo. Tempo is the speed at which you are playing, and everyone should be able to keep that more or less constant. Instead, I'm talking about where you play with respect to the beat. Some people play slightly ahead of it without speeding up, some people play ever-so-slightly behind it without slowing down, and some people manage to nail it on the head every time... But the key is to do whatever it is CONSISTENTLY. If it's inconsistent, it sounds wishy-washy, and playing along with it feels like slogging through mud, and tires you out. Playing along with (or dancing to) someone who has good rhythm is like surfing the perfect wave; instead of fighting it, you can just let it carry you to bliss...
If you (like me) are a former classical musician and you have NOT had this epiphany yet, I recommend you try recording yourself and listen to your rhythm. Is it ahead/behind/on the beat, or is it flopping along like a three-legged puppy? Listen carefully. Do you feel the beat in your torso, making you feel light in your seat? Or do you feel like you should tap your foot in order to remind yourself where the beat is? Do you *like* your rhythm? If you find yourself saying "I'm close enough", then odds are that you really aren't close enough.
Now go and listen to a CD of your favorite trad musician... What's the difference?
So, in a nutshell, if you want to sound like a classical violinist trying to play traditional music, then worry about your intonation/tone first and rhythm later; but if you would rather to sound like a legitimate traditional musician (whether Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, Appalacian Old-time, Bluegrass), place your rhythm first and worry about the rest only once you've got the rhythm nailed down.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
No, It is the melody that is the king. Sure the rhythm of the melody is vital and integral. But not the rhythm in isolation. Take away the notes and you have mere percussion
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Yes, rhythm is important. Last night there was a young lady at the session playing the fiddle. I sat behind her just watching her bowing arm going with such perfect rhythm. She was wonderful. When the rhythm is so good the melody sounds effortless, almost vanishes into a swirl that carries you away.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Ravel's gipsy flavoured Tziganes was a bad example from your part. You probably didn't even bother to listen it to the end as there are your reels with good timing in the last quarter. I just wonder what your version of that breautiful composition would sound if you played the air-like beginning of it with your metronome beat.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
However, I'd broadly agree with the sentiment that it's probably more important where in time the notes go than their exact intonation. But don't discount the idea that all five elements of notes are vital ... the timing, pitch, timbre, volume and relation to other notes.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
well, the term "rhythm," covers both "rhythm" in terms of the "beat," and "rhythm" in terms of playing in time with the time signature (that is not the same thing as tempo or speed). you can be playing "in time" but have no beat, lift, or swing. i have heard plenty of classical musicians who are impeccable with the time signature or metronome aspect of "rhythm," but have no beat or lift or swing.
classical music, though, is largely not "body" music. it is more "head" music. sometimes it has a beat, but less than folk traditions, which are usually dance-derived. not coincidentally, the classical music with the most "beat" is the folk-influenced hungarian or spanish stuff. "beat" or lift, or swing, is that rhythmic factor that makes you want to move. the syncopation term "swing" comes from jazz, which began as dance music. even as jazz became arty "head" music in the bepop era, the criteria "but can he swing?????" remained the ultimate gauge of a jazz musician's chops.
"beat," or "lift" in spanish flamenco dances such as the habanera, is highly syncopated and necessary for the dance, but there the syncopation is way different than the syncopation, swing, or beat needed to lift an irish dancer. figuring out where that is and how to get it is the essence of getting good at a dance-based folk form. northern irish forms such as donegal music, contain less dotted syncopation than, say, east clare-east galway forms, which have discernible (though not thumping), funky little booty-shaking backbeats. tulla ceili band, baby!!!
research is currently being done on the african-american-swing-based roots of this in american dance halls, which influenced irish players in america and inflamed irish players in ireland through lps. the irish catholic church in the 20s and 30s HATED jazz (as did the nazis in germany), but word on the street is that during the 30s many an irish ceili band musician had another life as a swing band player, and, i say, thank god for it! who wants their reels done scottish dance-hall master style or backbeat-deficient new england contra style??
it don't mean THING if it ain't got that SWING!!!!
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
You can have rhythm without melody, but not vice versa. A sequence of notes without rhythm isn't melody--it's just a sequence of notes.
Step and set dancers can certainly dance to just the beat of a drum or even the tatoo of their own feet. But melody helps orient them to the beginning, middle, and end of the dance. Melody also gives us a richer context for being playful with the rhythm and timing.
For this music to be effective, intonation and tone have to be only "good" enough to not distract us from the pulse and basic melodic structure. Also, great Irish musicians commonly use pitches and tonal qualities outside the norm for the average orchestral player.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
risto:
Ravel's gipsy flavoured Tziganes was a bad example from your part. You
probably didn't even bother to listen it to the end as there are your
reels with good timing in the last quarter. I just wonder what your
version of that breautiful composition would sound if you played the
air-like beginning of it with your metronome beat.
-------
On the contrary. I have listened to it. I know it quite well. It's a nice performance (though I prefer Szeryng's), and a *perfect* example of how the aesthetic for classical music is different from that for Irish music--which was exactly my point from the beginning.
I wasn't advocating a metronome beat for Tzigane (or classical music in general). I'm advocating it for Irish dance music, and pointing out that many people seem to incorrectly think that if playing around with the rhythm sounds good in classical music, it must sound good in trad too.
Frankly, listening to rhythm in the last quarter of Vengerov's performance sounds nothing like the good timing I expect in a reel. He's speeding up and slowing down all over the place and, again, it sounds fine in Ravel, but that same rhythm applied to an Irish reel would be a perfect example of what I'm saying classical violinists do poorly when they play traditional music.
Would Vengerov sound better if he was metronomic in the last quarter? Eh. Not what I'm talking about. I'll let the classical musicians argue over that one. I'm talking about traditional music.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Guysguysguys....Go immerse yourselves in Gypsy and Jewish music before arguing about Vengerov's performance. Comparing even Ravel's interpretation of such to ITM is apples and grapefruit.
terry
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Terry, I believe that was George's point--in one, the player pulls and pushes the timing around quite a bit. In the other, if you go too far (and not far at all compared to Ravel), you lose the pulse, what makes everyone tap their toes.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
what really helped me get the right sound I was looking for was mel bay's complete irish fiddle player by peter cooper. he really stresses the beat. the cd that comes with it is played very slow with the beat overemphasized. it really gave me the right idea
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Within the constraints of, say, an Irish reel rhythm, it's fascinating that there are so many different ways of getting pulse and lift. For example, regardless of tone, ornamentation, intonation, even timbre, it's possible to instantly tell fiddlers apart-- Kevin Burke from Martin Hayes from Frankie Gavin from Oisin MacDiarmada from John Carty from Brian Conway, etc. And yet all play with great lift and pulse.
In fact, to my ear, some players are overly consistent with this. They sacrifice the personality of the tune to maintain their trademark pulse or swing, and soon all their reels start to sound too alike. Fine for playing for dancers, I suppose, but boring in a solo performance or session.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
If you have a REAL classical background you know have to master rhythm playing, you won't be accepted in any orchestra otherwise. Therefore your generalization about how classical backround affects rhythm playing must apply to the quite few who in every opportunity can strech notes as they please (beginners?)
I'm not going to listen the sample you gave again but if I remember correct in the last quarter Vengerov was mostly playing against the beat from the orchestra and if he was stretching the timing it certainly was not for the sake of intonation.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Oh, more YooToob stuff. And it isn't Irish, either. So what's it doing here?
There's no way Classical stuff like that can be compared to Folk Music (forgive the term, but get real - that's what we play in a very eclectic way).
I'm sure there is a rhythm there in that yootoob clip - I'd just like to see a bodhran player follow it. And a set of dancers.
I'd rest my case, if I could remember where I left it.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Lordy, risto.
Again, I was not accusing Vengerov of being anything other than a fantastic CLASSICAL violinist. He might also be a damn good Irish fiddler for all I know... but not if he pushes the beat around like he did in that clip. That's partly my point.
The other part of my point was how common it was for people coming into Irish music from classical music to completely misunderstand what *kind* of rhythm is expected of a traditional musician. Instead, they seem to think that the same rhythmic guidelines and attitudes that apply to classical music should apply to traditional music--which is not the case. Here, you appear to have proven my point for me.
In the end, I am saying that if you are coming from a classical background into traditional music, it behooves you to closely examine your attitude towards rhythm (and compare it to that of other traditional musicians); lest you make the same obvious mistake that so many others have made before you...
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Now, whatta I know about this one, bein' nothing but a bluudy hick art'in the bluudy artback, but I think its got to do with holding on to the right notes and not giving every note an absolutely equal value. You hear brilliant players (well the ones I love anyway) hold notes where others chop them off withart payin' them their proper dues. Need to give the rhymn and the melody room, leeway, to breathe, merge, stretch and flourish - makes fer flow and lift and life. Embues character. Bluudy hard to emulate technically and some people don't even hear it - it isn't a product of technical virtuosity in any guises, its something else all together. Comes of a deep knowing and loving of the melodies and what makes them really sing. Need to leave the concrete technical concepts on the ground and fly more abstract creative ones. Isn't this what makes these players so enjoyable to play with? .... but wot td ard know, as I said, art here in the bluudy artback, hey? Wouldn't know Beethoven from a dung beetle.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
"> The other part of my point was how common it was for people coming into Irish music from classical music to completely misunderstand what *kind* of rhythm is expected of a traditional musician. Instead, they seem to think that the same rhythmic guidelines and attitudes that apply to classical music should apply to traditional music which is not the case. Here, you appear to have proven my point for me"
No I haven't. Obviously I am not pointing out clearly enough that I am dissagreeing with the way how you say classical background affects playing folk music and dragging that here. Surely anything you did before affects how you understand and deal with new situations and learning in general. That is the only way a human can learn, building on what he knows from the previous. What I'm saying is that a *good* classical player will quite soon hear, understand folk music, just give him/her the time. Of course there are lots of crappy classical players who were never able succeed in classical music and then moved to folk music bringing their old habits with them and never being able to change their ways.
What you say about the poor rhythm affecting ensemble playing I'm not dissagreeing, and know it quite well. Personally I had to stop playing with a person with whom we performed for some years just because he didn't pay attention to the rhythm and didn't care how I complained about it.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
i'm with llig..ITM for me is 1st and foremost about some of the most beautiful melodies on the planet. thats why i prefer no backing...oh please lets not go there again!
But eg O'Carolan..(as The Edge from U2 said about a song once), some of his tunes sound like they weren't written, but have always been there and he just plucked them from the air.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
it's a false dichotomy, in the end really isn't it? Melody without rhythm is just a random selection of notes, as many sessions I've experienced testify. Rhythm without melody is just percussion. Music needs both - Id' say?
However, I have more frequently encountered tunes being massacred by people with perfect intonation but no sense of lift than I have those with ONLY intonation problems. Generally the people I've ever encountered (not withstanding a few flute players) with crap intonation also have a crap sense of rhythm.
This has just been my experience though. The right rhythms, and there are right ones (several) to my mind, are pretty much something you have to acquire, and really you can only do that by playing lots with people who've got it right already. Personally I think you can tell when it's right because the tunes are easier to play - light, not floundering around in some muddy clart as someone pointed out above.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Within the scope of playing to time, the relative positions of the beats can be moved around slightly within the bar. Hence, it's possible to play on the beat, ahead of the beat to make the music sound more lively and fast moving or behind the beat to get a more relaxed feel. All whilst keeping to the same metronome marking. Also, the relative lengths between beats 1&2, 2&3, etc can be altered in order to give swing. I don't know the piece in question, but surely the score of a
classical piece will require the musicians to move around the beat in order to create different ideas at different times?
Traditional music is principally about dance (or at least the music we discuss here is - o'Carolan's planxties aren't dance tunes) and dancing to musicians who are playing behind the beat feels rather like wading through custard. Dancing to musicians who are consistantly too far in front feels like you're constantly being dragged around by the scruff of the neck. So, once again, I get to break out my usual mantra "make the blighters dance"
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
To stand the original view on its head, IMHO good dance musicians "tweak" the melody a bit in order to make the dancers skip better to the rhythm.
Creative players may also swing the rhythm about a bit, but it's hard to describe how it is done without producing the scruff/custard effect so eloquently described above. I suppose it's intuitive and is the "lifting" referred to in the opening post.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Erm ... in the light of so much eloquence and knowledge I'm almost afraid to comment but ..... I thought intonation meant giving character, feeling and mood to the note - not just playing in tune. I've had this 'hunch' backed up by one or two classical musicians .... what d'you reckon guys?
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I thought it was the "in-tune nation"--that community of players who bother to tune, to each other, starting with a note from one of the fixed-pitch citizens.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I totally empathize with you Georgi. I was classically trained, and intonation was EXTREMELY important. Infact, that's what one of music teachers had practice every week was the piece/technique and intonation.
I agree that that if you can keep the rythum and tempo right, intonation can bear to have a little leeway.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I would have thought that most good trad players would have mastered intonation well by the time they could actually play a tune with all those esoteric "lift" qualities. Their version of intonation might not be quite the same as that used in classical music.
It hardly seems a likely scenario (not saying someone specifically said this) that someone would need to fudge their intonation in order to make the rhythm and lift more exciting.
An important point raised above about people bothering to tune their instruments to each other - but that is more about commone courtesy.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
In the classical world there are musicians, especially soloists, who have their own versions of intonation which are internally self-consistent and usually quite acceptable to others.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Can't we have both?
True enough, many great old 78s, the fiddle intonation seems a bit of much of the time, yet full of lift and swing.... running now, can't think of specific examples.
Much of the time, it really could be the instrument and how it's set up, the neck, the bridge placement etc. The fingering could be dead on and the strings in perfect tune when played open. When fingered the height of them off the fingerboard can produce a sharp or flat note when pressed down. Maybe they weren't in the old days as obsessed with perfect instrument set up or perfect studio produced slick recording, just played with the usual abandon and didn't worry?
When people are not so scared about making a few mistakes or the intonation being a little off here and there, they usually play with more passion and wildness which is nicer I think. Not all of course, some are great all around!
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Fiddle intonation probably sounds weird on old 78s because they are playing with pianos. On their own most of them would sound just fine, to my ears at least.
Why assume that the fiddlers of old, who played the fiddle supremely well - by ear - were incapable of making the notes they wanted to hear? Just because they're not the ones _you_ expect to hear?
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Sorry to say this Geordi, but listening to your playing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AerVZHfJ2P8
i noticed you still sound a bit classical.
Keep working on the rythm!
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I fully agree with SteveJeeves, in fact I know a man who had fiddlelessons when very young from his uncle Paddy Killoran and a bit later in life from Bobby Casey and he will tell you both were extremely fussy about getting things 'right' bowing and intonation wise.
Jeeves will probably also agree with me that, unlike what was proposed above, Paddy Fahey, Canny and the like don't 'fudge' notes but play exactly what they intend to play.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
i noticed you still sound a bit classical.
Keep working on the rythm!
--------
I'm not at all surpirsed. I never meant to imply that I had mastered it myself. I expect I'll be working on it for the rest of my life (and that doesn't bother me, either).
As for fudging notes, I never meant to imply that they did so carelessly. I completely believe that the old guys knew what they were doing, as well as knowing what they WEREN'T doing.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Iris, I suggest that your last post was looking at the change in intonation while playing from the perspective of the guitarist. As we all know, on the guitar if you press a finger down hard it increases the tension in the string and sharpens the note, the pitch of which is determined by the fret (immovable). When I learned classical guitar I was taught to avoid pressing a finger down so hard that the string would touch the fingerboard between the frets, but rather to finger the string close behind the fret for that note, the objective being to bring the string into contact with that fret and no more.
On the fiddle, if you use a high action and press the finger down hard, true, it will sharpen the note, but the experienced fiddler will move that finger slightly back down the string to compensate and bring the note to its correct pitch. I say "experienced" because it won't be a conscious action, the ear tells the finger where to go, and it will take a beginner a fair old time of careful practice and listening to reach that standard.
I like to use just about the lowest action I can get away with on my fiddles (and cello) without the strings buzzing, not so much for intonation reasons but because there is then much less physical work involved in pressing the string, which makes for a quicker finger movement and less wear on the string. My cello teacher actively discouraged heavy "hammering" of the fingers down onto the strings - he actually mentioned finger joint problems in later life as a possible consequence of this practice, which I still see some players do.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Surely fractionally changing the intonation and rhythm is what MUSICIANS do in order to INTERPRET a piece of music and to put it in the GROOVE.
The ABC or dots or even some renditions of tunes miss the beauty because the groove for that particular tune is not there.
If you play exactly as it is “written” you end up sounding like a Midi file!
So know and play the tune but get in its groove!!!
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Lazy...Jeeves good points... Jeeves, yes maybe it is the piano!! I will listen more closely next time and see. It's when it sounds sharp for example all the way through, could very well be that the piano needed a bit of tuning.
Lazy, I'd think any string too far off on any instrument would sharpen the note, but sure, they would of course be able to compensate. I have heard many older players who just progressively went sharper and sharper though, so maybe some of these players on 78s were in that particular age group. It will get a closer listen.
I know some older players I used to play with regularly were going way off with intonation and it got worse as they got even older especially if they started drinking too much, but the lift and rhythm were surely still there and they were still wonderful players.
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
This music is driven by the rhythm of dance, not so rigid that it is a lifeless metronome, but not so loose that the dancers lose their place. While all aspects of music are important, as discussed above, rhythm is at the heart and soul of what we do--it is the pulse or the heartbeat, if you will. At least on the dance tunes.
At the other extreme, you find folks that can't let the rhythm go, and take aires and turn them into waltzes, or when they try to be free in their rhthym, just sound mushy. There is also a trick to flexing rhythm on the aires, which is not something that comes naturally to every player. And it is not just an absence of rhythm.....
Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Another discussion earlier today made me think of this.
In my opinion, it's a common mistake--speaking as someone who made this same mistake for years--to place too much emphasis on intonation, and not enough emphasis on rhythm in traditional music. This is most common from those of us that came to trad from a classical background, where rhythm is commonly tweaked (even abused) for dramatic effect, and "perfect" intonation is a prerequisite to playing in public:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DLQbCVwIeWs
Instead, I have come to believe/realize that most good traditional musicians tend to prefer to reverse those priorities; holding onto rhythm tightly, and taking liberties with intonation instead. Some of the reasons for taking liberties with intonation are mechanical (eg: pipers and flute players tend to have a very different idea of what an f-natural sounds like than accordions do), and some are by preference; fiddlers like Paddy Canny, Paddy Fahy, and Tommy Peoples use slides, and many will deliberately fudge certain notes for effect (and it sounds great)!
Have you ever found yourself at a session that felt like it was dragging until someone else sat down and *lifted* it? Odds are, it was his/her quality of rhythm that made the difference, not his/her intonation.
Now mind you, I'm not talking about maintaining tempo. Tempo is the speed at which you are playing, and everyone should be able to keep that more or less constant. Instead, I'm talking about where you play with respect to the beat. Some people play slightly ahead of it without speeding up, some people play ever-so-slightly behind it without slowing down, and some people manage to nail it on the head every time... But the key is to do whatever it is CONSISTENTLY. If it's inconsistent, it sounds wishy-washy, and playing along with it feels like slogging through mud, and tires you out. Playing along with (or dancing to) someone who has good rhythm is like surfing the perfect wave; instead of fighting it, you can just let it carry you to bliss...
If you (like me) are a former classical musician and you have NOT had this epiphany yet, I recommend you try recording yourself and listen to your rhythm. Is it ahead/behind/on the beat, or is it flopping along like a three-legged puppy? Listen carefully. Do you feel the beat in your torso, making you feel light in your seat? Or do you feel like you should tap your foot in order to remind yourself where the beat is? Do you *like* your rhythm? If you find yourself saying "I'm close enough", then odds are that you really aren't close enough.
Now go and listen to a CD of your favorite trad musician... What's the difference?
So, in a nutshell, if you want to sound like a classical violinist trying to play traditional music, then worry about your intonation/tone first and rhythm later; but if you would rather to sound like a legitimate traditional musician (whether Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, Appalacian Old-time, Bluegrass), place your rhythm first and worry about the rest only once you've got the rhythm nailed down.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I agree though not a violinist, the rhythm's the thing.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
No, It is the melody that is the king. Sure the rhythm of the melody is vital and integral. But not the rhythm in isolation. Take away the notes and you have mere percussion
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
This seems a bit of a chicken and egg argument . Both are needed, each is meaningless with out the other.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
OK llig, I'll buy that.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Hmmm. Not sure I agree, llig.
Would you rather listen to two people play in rhythm, but with different notes? Or two people play the same notes with different rhythms?
I'm leaning towards the former myself...
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Yes, rhythm is important. Last night there was a young lady at the session playing the fiddle. I sat behind her just watching her bowing arm going with such perfect rhythm. She was wonderful. When the rhythm is so good the melody sounds effortless, almost vanishes into a swirl that carries you away.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
The question is a bit daft. If two people are playing the same notes, then their rhythm will be in sinc, since the rhythm is an element of the notes
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Ravel's gipsy flavoured Tziganes was a bad example from your part. You probably didn't even bother to listen it to the end as there are your reels with good timing in the last quarter. I just wonder what your version of that breautiful composition would sound if you played the air-like beginning of it with your metronome beat.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Risto
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
beautiful
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Risto
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
However, I'd broadly agree with the sentiment that it's probably more important where in time the notes go than their exact intonation. But don't discount the idea that all five elements of notes are vital ... the timing, pitch, timbre, volume and relation to other notes.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I enjoyed the Vengarov too
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
well, the term "rhythm," covers both "rhythm" in terms of the "beat," and "rhythm" in terms of playing in time with the time signature (that is not the same thing as tempo or speed). you can be playing "in time" but have no beat, lift, or swing. i have heard plenty of classical musicians who are impeccable with the time signature or metronome aspect of "rhythm," but have no beat or lift or swing.
classical music, though, is largely not "body" music. it is more "head" music. sometimes it has a beat, but less than folk traditions, which are usually dance-derived. not coincidentally, the classical music with the most "beat" is the folk-influenced hungarian or spanish stuff. "beat" or lift, or swing, is that rhythmic factor that makes you want to move. the syncopation term "swing" comes from jazz, which began as dance music. even as jazz became arty "head" music in the bepop era, the criteria "but can he swing?????" remained the ultimate gauge of a jazz musician's chops.
"beat," or "lift" in spanish flamenco dances such as the habanera, is highly syncopated and necessary for the dance, but there the syncopation is way different than the syncopation, swing, or beat needed to lift an irish dancer. figuring out where that is and how to get it is the essence of getting good at a dance-based folk form. northern irish forms such as donegal music, contain less dotted syncopation than, say, east clare-east galway forms, which have discernible (though not thumping), funky little booty-shaking backbeats. tulla ceili band, baby!!!
research is currently being done on the african-american-swing-based roots of this in american dance halls, which influenced irish players in america and inflamed irish players in ireland through lps. the irish catholic church in the 20s and 30s HATED jazz (as did the nazis in germany), but word on the street is that during the 30s many an irish ceili band musician had another life as a swing band player, and, i say, thank god for it! who wants their reels done scottish dance-hall master style or backbeat-deficient new england contra style??
it don't mean THING if it ain't got that SWING!!!!
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
You can have rhythm without melody, but not vice versa. A sequence of notes without rhythm isn't melody--it's just a sequence of notes.
Step and set dancers can certainly dance to just the beat of a drum or even the tatoo of their own feet. But melody helps orient them to the beginning, middle, and end of the dance. Melody also gives us a richer context for being playful with the rhythm and timing.
For this music to be effective, intonation and tone have to be only "good" enough to not distract us from the pulse and basic melodic structure. Also, great Irish musicians commonly use pitches and tonal qualities outside the norm for the average orchestral player.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
risto:
Ravel's gipsy flavoured Tziganes was a bad example from your part. You
probably didn't even bother to listen it to the end as there are your
reels with good timing in the last quarter. I just wonder what your
version of that breautiful composition would sound if you played the
air-like beginning of it with your metronome beat.
-------
On the contrary. I have listened to it. I know it quite well. It's a nice performance (though I prefer Szeryng's), and a *perfect* example of how the aesthetic for classical music is different from that for Irish music--which was exactly my point from the beginning.
I wasn't advocating a metronome beat for Tzigane (or classical music in general). I'm advocating it for Irish dance music, and pointing out that many people seem to incorrectly think that if playing around with the rhythm sounds good in classical music, it must sound good in trad too.
Frankly, listening to rhythm in the last quarter of Vengerov's performance sounds nothing like the good timing I expect in a reel. He's speeding up and slowing down all over the place and, again, it sounds fine in Ravel, but that same rhythm applied to an Irish reel would be a perfect example of what I'm saying classical violinists do poorly when they play traditional music.
Would Vengerov sound better if he was metronomic in the last quarter? Eh. Not what I'm talking about. I'll let the classical musicians argue over that one. I'm talking about traditional music.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Georgi
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
the tune and rhythm are inseparable. One without the other does not work
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
And, for the record, I'm certainly not advocating dropping the melody. Juggling with one ball is hardly "juggling".
But that said, I'd rather hear a good bodhran player than a fiddler with no rhythm... Maybe...
(and, of course, slow airs are another beast altogether... Let's not bring them into the picture here)
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Georgi
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Guysguysguys....Go immerse yourselves in Gypsy and Jewish music before arguing about Vengerov's performance. Comparing even Ravel's interpretation of such to ITM is apples and grapefruit.
terry
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by twildman
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Terry, I believe that was George's point--in one, the player pulls and pushes the timing around quite a bit. In the other, if you go too far (and not far at all compared to Ravel), you lose the pulse, what makes everyone tap their toes.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
what really helped me get the right sound I was looking for was mel bay's complete irish fiddle player by peter cooper. he really stresses the beat. the cd that comes with it is played very slow with the beat overemphasized. it really gave me the right idea
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Aodh Rúadh
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Within the constraints of, say, an Irish reel rhythm, it's fascinating that there are so many different ways of getting pulse and lift. For example, regardless of tone, ornamentation, intonation, even timbre, it's possible to instantly tell fiddlers apart-- Kevin Burke from Martin Hayes from Frankie Gavin from Oisin MacDiarmada from John Carty from Brian Conway, etc. And yet all play with great lift and pulse.
In fact, to my ear, some players are overly consistent with this. They sacrifice the personality of the tune to maintain their trademark pulse or swing, and soon all their reels start to sound too alike. Fine for playing for dancers, I suppose, but boring in a solo performance or session.
George, I'd be curious to hear your take on that.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
If you have a REAL classical background you know have to master rhythm playing, you won't be accepted in any orchestra otherwise. Therefore your generalization about how classical backround affects rhythm playing must apply to the quite few who in every opportunity can strech notes as they please (beginners?)
I'm not going to listen the sample you gave again but if I remember correct in the last quarter Vengerov was mostly playing against the beat from the orchestra and if he was stretching the timing it certainly was not for the sake of intonation.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Risto
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
The tune name says it all... "I Got Rhythm". But intonation sure doesn't hurt... bad intonation does.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by drone
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Hmph. Are people, like, ***deliberately*** trying to misunderstand other's posts?
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Oh, more YooToob stuff. And it isn't Irish, either. So what's it doing here?
There's no way Classical stuff like that can be compared to Folk Music (forgive the term, but get real - that's what we play in a very eclectic way).
I'm sure there is a rhythm there in that yootoob clip - I'd just like to see a bodhran player follow it. And a set of dancers.
I'd rest my case, if I could remember where I left it.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Wurzel
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I think it was Beethoven who said "For music to be music, it must have melody and rhythm, point and counterpoint"
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Make that Brendan O'Beethoven
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Lordy, risto.
Again, I was not accusing Vengerov of being anything other than a fantastic CLASSICAL violinist. He might also be a damn good Irish fiddler for all I know... but not if he pushes the beat around like he did in that clip. That's partly my point.
The other part of my point was how common it was for people coming into Irish music from classical music to completely misunderstand what *kind* of rhythm is expected of a traditional musician. Instead, they seem to think that the same rhythmic guidelines and attitudes that apply to classical music should apply to traditional music--which is not the case. Here, you appear to have proven my point for me.
In the end, I am saying that if you are coming from a classical background into traditional music, it behooves you to closely examine your attitude towards rhythm (and compare it to that of other traditional musicians); lest you make the same obvious mistake that so many others have made before you...
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Georgi
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
and by "obvious mistake", I meant "obvious to traditional musicians". The difference is pretty subtle if you're not used to it.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Georgi
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Now, whatta I know about this one, bein' nothing but a bluudy hick art'in the bluudy artback, but I think its got to do with holding on to the right notes and not giving every note an absolutely equal value. You hear brilliant players (well the ones I love anyway) hold notes where others chop them off withart payin' them their proper dues. Need to give the rhymn and the melody room, leeway, to breathe, merge, stretch and flourish - makes fer flow and lift and life. Embues character. Bluudy hard to emulate technically and some people don't even hear it - it isn't a product of technical virtuosity in any guises, its something else all together. Comes of a deep knowing and loving of the melodies and what makes them really sing. Need to leave the concrete technical concepts on the ground and fly more abstract creative ones. Isn't this what makes these players so enjoyable to play with? .... but wot td ard know, as I said, art here in the bluudy artback, hey? Wouldn't know Beethoven from a dung beetle.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
... listen to? Their music hits the spot. Simple. Sorry.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Beethoven wasn't full of the same stuff a dung beetle is full of.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I personally love Baroque music. See how it's different from so-called classical music.
Glenn Gould: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMb4FMGHQJ4
Scott Ross: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3vpG1PgFF34
Paolo Pandolfo: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5EvGoarGfn4
Ton Koopman: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YFrVdo5c4mg
Wilbert Hazelzet with T. Koopman: http://youtube.com/watch?v=xVxwuirUX-M
(the entire suite: http://youtube.com/results?search_query=koopman+bwv1067)
IMO this is similar to Irish music.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by slainte
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
"> The other part of my point was how common it was for people coming into Irish music from classical music to completely misunderstand what *kind* of rhythm is expected of a traditional musician. Instead, they seem to think that the same rhythmic guidelines and attitudes that apply to classical music should apply to traditional music which is not the case. Here, you appear to have proven my point for me"
No I haven't. Obviously I am not pointing out clearly enough that I am dissagreeing with the way how you say classical background affects playing folk music and dragging that here. Surely anything you did before affects how you understand and deal with new situations and learning in general. That is the only way a human can learn, building on what he knows from the previous. What I'm saying is that a *good* classical player will quite soon hear, understand folk music, just give him/her the time. Of course there are lots of crappy classical players who were never able succeed in classical music and then moved to folk music bringing their old habits with them and never being able to change their ways.
What you say about the poor rhythm affecting ensemble playing I'm not dissagreeing, and know it quite well. Personally I had to stop playing with a person with whom we performed for some years just because he didn't pay attention to the rhythm and didn't care how I complained about it.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Risto
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
i'm with llig..ITM for me is 1st and foremost about some of the most beautiful melodies on the planet. thats why i prefer no backing...oh please lets not go there again!
But eg O'Carolan..(as The Edge from U2 said about a song once), some of his tunes sound like they weren't written, but have always been there and he just plucked them from the air.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
it's a false dichotomy, in the end really isn't it? Melody without rhythm is just a random selection of notes, as many sessions I've experienced testify. Rhythm without melody is just percussion. Music needs both - Id' say?
However, I have more frequently encountered tunes being massacred by people with perfect intonation but no sense of lift than I have those with ONLY intonation problems. Generally the people I've ever encountered (not withstanding a few flute players) with crap intonation also have a crap sense of rhythm.
This has just been my experience though. The right rhythms, and there are right ones (several) to my mind, are pretty much something you have to acquire, and really you can only do that by playing lots with people who've got it right already. Personally I think you can tell when it's right because the tunes are easier to play - light, not floundering around in some muddy clart as someone pointed out above.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Within the scope of playing to time, the relative positions of the beats can be moved around slightly within the bar. Hence, it's possible to play on the beat, ahead of the beat to make the music sound more lively and fast moving or behind the beat to get a more relaxed feel. All whilst keeping to the same metronome marking. Also, the relative lengths between beats 1&2, 2&3, etc can be altered in order to give swing. I don't know the piece in question, but surely the score of a
classical piece will require the musicians to move around the beat in order to create different ideas at different times?
Traditional music is principally about dance (or at least the music we discuss here is - o'Carolan's planxties aren't dance tunes) and dancing to musicians who are playing behind the beat feels rather like wading through custard. Dancing to musicians who are consistantly too far in front feels like you're constantly being dragged around by the scruff of the neck. So, once again, I get to break out my usual mantra "make the blighters dance"
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
To stand the original view on its head, IMHO good dance musicians "tweak" the melody a bit in order to make the dancers skip better to the rhythm.
Creative players may also swing the rhythm about a bit, but it's hard to describe how it is done without producing the scruff/custard effect so eloquently described above. I suppose it's intuitive and is the "lifting" referred to in the opening post.
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by millionyears_bc
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Erm ... in the light of so much eloquence and knowledge I'm almost afraid to comment but ..... I thought intonation meant giving character, feeling and mood to the note - not just playing in tune. I've had this 'hunch' backed up by one or two classical musicians .... what d'you reckon guys?
# Posted on August 4th 2007 by boxershort
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I thought it was the "in-tune nation"--that community of players who bother to tune, to each other, starting with a note from one of the fixed-pitch citizens.
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I totally empathize with you Georgi. I was classically trained, and intonation was EXTREMELY important. Infact, that's what one of music teachers had practice every week was the piece/technique and intonation.
I agree that that if you can keep the rythum and tempo right, intonation can bear to have a little leeway.
Sara
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by Celtic Lass
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I would have thought that most good trad players would have mastered intonation well by the time they could actually play a tune with all those esoteric "lift" qualities. Their version of intonation might not be quite the same as that used in classical music.
It hardly seems a likely scenario (not saying someone specifically said this) that someone would need to fudge their intonation in order to make the rhythm and lift more exciting.
An important point raised above about people bothering to tune their instruments to each other - but that is more about commone courtesy.
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by Donough
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
In the classical world there are musicians, especially soloists, who have their own versions of intonation which are internally self-consistent and usually quite acceptable to others.
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Can't we have both?
True enough, many great old 78s, the fiddle intonation seems a bit of much of the time, yet full of lift and swing.... running now, can't think of specific examples.
Much of the time, it really could be the instrument and how it's set up, the neck, the bridge placement etc. The fingering could be dead on and the strings in perfect tune when played open. When fingered the height of them off the fingerboard can produce a sharp or flat note when pressed down. Maybe they weren't in the old days as obsessed with perfect instrument set up or perfect studio produced slick recording, just played with the usual abandon and didn't worry?
When people are not so scared about making a few mistakes or the intonation being a little off here and there, they usually play with more passion and wildness which is nicer I think. Not all of course, some are great all around!
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Fiddle intonation probably sounds weird on old 78s because they are playing with pianos. On their own most of them would sound just fine, to my ears at least.
Why assume that the fiddlers of old, who played the fiddle supremely well - by ear - were incapable of making the notes they wanted to hear? Just because they're not the ones _you_ expect to hear?
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Sorry to say this Geordi, but listening to your playing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AerVZHfJ2P8
i noticed you still sound a bit classical.
Keep working on the rythm!
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by Axe
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
I fully agree with SteveJeeves, in fact I know a man who had fiddlelessons when very young from his uncle Paddy Killoran and a bit later in life from Bobby Casey and he will tell you both were extremely fussy about getting things 'right' bowing and intonation wise.
Jeeves will probably also agree with me that, unlike what was proposed above, Paddy Fahey, Canny and the like don't 'fudge' notes but play exactly what they intend to play.
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
i noticed you still sound a bit classical.
Keep working on the rythm!
--------
I'm not at all surpirsed. I never meant to imply that I had mastered it myself. I expect I'll be working on it for the rest of my life (and that doesn't bother me, either).
As for fudging notes, I never meant to imply that they did so carelessly. I completely believe that the old guys knew what they were doing, as well as knowing what they WEREN'T doing.
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by Georgi
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
George, I think your fiddling sounds great.
# Posted on August 5th 2007 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Clear drops, I agree with your musical philosophy on Rhythm almost entirely, but you do the worst Australian accent I have ever read.
# Posted on August 6th 2007 by chuneboi slim
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Iris, I suggest that your last post was looking at the change in intonation while playing from the perspective of the guitarist. As we all know, on the guitar if you press a finger down hard it increases the tension in the string and sharpens the note, the pitch of which is determined by the fret (immovable). When I learned classical guitar I was taught to avoid pressing a finger down so hard that the string would touch the fingerboard between the frets, but rather to finger the string close behind the fret for that note, the objective being to bring the string into contact with that fret and no more.
On the fiddle, if you use a high action and press the finger down hard, true, it will sharpen the note, but the experienced fiddler will move that finger slightly back down the string to compensate and bring the note to its correct pitch. I say "experienced" because it won't be a conscious action, the ear tells the finger where to go, and it will take a beginner a fair old time of careful practice and listening to reach that standard.
I like to use just about the lowest action I can get away with on my fiddles (and cello) without the strings buzzing, not so much for intonation reasons but because there is then much less physical work involved in pressing the string, which makes for a quicker finger movement and less wear on the string. My cello teacher actively discouraged heavy "hammering" of the fingers down onto the strings - he actually mentioned finger joint problems in later life as a possible consequence of this practice, which I still see some players do.
# Posted on August 6th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
This seems to be a very even tempered argument
As an aside:
"Juggling with one ball is hardly 'juggling'."
Au contraire. Search for "contact juggling" on YouTube.com and have a look see.
# Posted on August 6th 2007 by gw
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
The Irish Vengarov:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LbqUQFcjh0c
# Posted on August 6th 2007 by grego
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Surely fractionally changing the intonation and rhythm is what MUSICIANS do in order to INTERPRET a piece of music and to put it in the GROOVE.
The ABC or dots or even some renditions of tunes miss the beauty because the groove for that particular tune is not there.
If you play exactly as it is “written” you end up sounding like a Midi file!
So know and play the tune but get in its groove!!!
# Posted on August 6th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
Lazy...Jeeves good points... Jeeves, yes maybe it is the piano!! I will listen more closely next time and see. It's when it sounds sharp for example all the way through, could very well be that the piano needed a bit of tuning.
Lazy, I'd think any string too far off on any instrument would sharpen the note, but sure, they would of course be able to compensate. I have heard many older players who just progressively went sharper and sharper though, so maybe some of these players on 78s were in that particular age group. It will get a closer listen.
I know some older players I used to play with regularly were going way off with intonation and it got worse as they got even older especially if they started drinking too much, but the lift and rhythm were surely still there and they were still wonderful players.
# Posted on August 6th 2007 by irisnevins
Re: Rhythm, intonation, and the people who play with them...
This music is driven by the rhythm of dance, not so rigid that it is a lifeless metronome, but not so loose that the dancers lose their place. While all aspects of music are important, as discussed above, rhythm is at the heart and soul of what we do--it is the pulse or the heartbeat, if you will. At least on the dance tunes.
At the other extreme, you find folks that can't let the rhythm go, and take aires and turn them into waltzes, or when they try to be free in their rhthym, just sound mushy. There is also a trick to flexing rhythm on the aires, which is not something that comes naturally to every player. And it is not just an absence of rhythm.....
# Posted on August 6th 2007 by AlBrown