I have been thinking a lot about temperaments and intonation lately, and I have some questions:
Are accordions tuned to equal temperament? I suppose that piano (chromatic) accordions are, but what about diatonic accordions?
And if diatonic accordions are tuned to equal temperament why should that be?
That would mean that when I play the fiddle with an accordion player I would have to tune the open strings to non-perfect fifths or with an electronic tuner (which I hate), to be also in equal temperament. If I tuned them to perfect fifths I would be out of tune with the accordion.
Perfect fifths is good enough for professional orchestras, it's fine for Irish trad.
Besides, diatonic accordions usually have sets of reeds tuned slightly off from one another to fatten and smooth out the sound (see prior discussions of "dry" vs "wet" tuning).
I'm pickier than most about tuning, but at the end of the day, being "perfectly in tune" (what does that mean, anyway?) is overrated. Tune your fiddle so it sounds good to you, and play it so it sounds good with your fellow musicians.
I don't think rhythm is much more important anyway, I think is just as important. One might have a very good rhythm, but if he sounds out of tune...
Both have to be good.
I wouldn't worry about tuning your strings in anything other than perfect fifths, but playing with an accordion (or any other fixed pitch instrument) will cetainly affect how you tune your notes on the fiddle. Especially the notes of F and C.
Unfortunately. The box and banjo and all the rest of them have had a homogenizing effect on Irish music, with the loss of a lot of colour from fiddle playing in particular.
So adjust to the accordion when you have to and explore the wonderful universe of variable pitch when you don't!
Concertinas used to be tuned to alternative temperaments, including 1/4 comma meantone, whatever that means, to make the chords sound less harsh. Some makers and tuners will still do this. On accordions this possibility seems alluring but esp. ones designed to be chromatic I think it would be a total can of worms. Anyway on accordions the harshness of the chords gets nicely softened, as Georgi suggested, by having multiple voices, as long as they are not dry tuned.
PS I have to agree with Georgi. You can be slightly out of tune (subject to your definition of out of tune - a lot of notes a piano would find out of tune, I wouldn't) and play great Irish music as long as you have great rhythm.
But if your rhythm is sh*ght, you'll sound like sh*ght no matter how in tune you are, with a piano or anything else.
You can ask the accordion player for an A, and tune your A string so it's beatless. That's how we tune octaves on a piano- sharp so you hear a beat, then back the string down so it's beatless.
I wouldn't worry about electronic tuners or the diatonic comma or any other technical stuff.
I would worry about tone, rhythm, intonation, and expression, all four being equally important.
I agree with the above sentiments that you can worry too much about this.
As for tuning your fiddle against a box: In equal temperament, the fifths are actually quite close to where you would want them to be. It's the thirds that are the biggest problem.
My understanding is that Cajun one-row boxes are usually tuned to just intonation, which partly accounts for their distinctive sound.
Ok, maybe rhythm is a bit more important, but when I mean out of tune I mean seriously out of tune, then no matter how good the rhythm is. I think.
My definition of out of tune? I didn't give any. I am very aware of different temperaments, and that's why I write this post. It is precisely equal temperament (piano tuning) which I don't like!
I always tune the fiddle to perfect fifths, by ear. Many people who I play with tune their fiddles with an electronic tuner, and I honestly think thats not good. Among other things they don't develop their ear by doing that, and also if they are not capable of tuning the fiddle how do they expect to play the notes in tune with the fingers?
Thanks for the comments Jeeves. I find this so interesting. : )
Tuning can be all over depending on your preference in music. Focus on the truth of the tune (I am going to get teased for that one) and the rhythm.
When I started on box, mine was really wet-25 cents or so out. But the older guys who played it thought it was wonderfully warm and said it was a matter of taste. My guitar freinds on the other hand went nuts.
I had it tuned dry. Cleaner sound, actually a bit louder, but fewer complaints. Have to work for the warmth on airs though. Besides, a piano is actually a percussion instrument with strings and needs the tempering to get over the arithmatic issues as tuning goes high or low of A.
With the box, LMH or however you have your reed set, the tempering is more internal note by note.. I don;t know if that makes sense.
I'd say to pray to the Patron Saint of Accordions on this, but I have yet to find one to pray to for divine lightning to strike a crabby guitar player who complains he can't 'tune to the box'!
Accordions and tuning.
Accordions and tuning.
I have been thinking a lot about temperaments and intonation lately, and I have some questions:
Are accordions tuned to equal temperament? I suppose that piano (chromatic) accordions are, but what about diatonic accordions?
And if diatonic accordions are tuned to equal temperament why should that be?
That would mean that when I play the fiddle with an accordion player I would have to tune the open strings to non-perfect fifths or with an electronic tuner (which I hate), to be also in equal temperament. If I tuned them to perfect fifths I would be out of tune with the accordion.
Sorry if all this sounds a bit confusing.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Gregorio
Re: Accordions and tuning.
I wouldn't worry about it.
Perfect fifths is good enough for professional orchestras, it's fine for Irish trad.
Besides, diatonic accordions usually have sets of reeds tuned slightly off from one another to fatten and smooth out the sound (see prior discussions of "dry" vs "wet" tuning).
I'm pickier than most about tuning, but at the end of the day, being "perfectly in tune" (what does that mean, anyway?) is overrated. Tune your fiddle so it sounds good to you, and play it so it sounds good with your fellow musicians.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: Accordions and tuning.
oh, and...
Spend more time/energy thinking about rhythm. It's MUCH more important.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Georgi
Re: Accordions and tuning.
Thanks Geordi.
I don't think rhythm is much more important anyway, I think is just as important. One might have a very good rhythm, but if he sounds out of tune...
Both have to be good.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Gregorio
Re: Accordions and tuning.
I wouldn't worry about tuning your strings in anything other than perfect fifths, but playing with an accordion (or any other fixed pitch instrument) will cetainly affect how you tune your notes on the fiddle. Especially the notes of F and C.
Unfortunately. The box and banjo and all the rest of them have had a homogenizing effect on Irish music, with the loss of a lot of colour from fiddle playing in particular.
So adjust to the accordion when you have to and explore the wonderful universe of variable pitch when you don't!
Concertinas used to be tuned to alternative temperaments, including 1/4 comma meantone, whatever that means, to make the chords sound less harsh. Some makers and tuners will still do this. On accordions this possibility seems alluring but esp. ones designed to be chromatic I think it would be a total can of worms. Anyway on accordions the harshness of the chords gets nicely softened, as Georgi suggested, by having multiple voices, as long as they are not dry tuned.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Accordions and tuning.
PS I have to agree with Georgi. You can be slightly out of tune (subject to your definition of out of tune - a lot of notes a piano would find out of tune, I wouldn't) and play great Irish music as long as you have great rhythm.
But if your rhythm is sh*ght, you'll sound like sh*ght no matter how in tune you are, with a piano or anything else.
Ergo, rhythm _is_ more important!
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Accordions and tuning.
You can ask the accordion player for an A, and tune your A string so it's beatless. That's how we tune octaves on a piano- sharp so you hear a beat, then back the string down so it's beatless.
I wouldn't worry about electronic tuners or the diatonic comma or any other technical stuff.
I would worry about tone, rhythm, intonation, and expression, all four being equally important.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Accordions and tuning.
I agree with the above sentiments that you can worry too much about this.
As for tuning your fiddle against a box: In equal temperament, the fifths are actually quite close to where you would want them to be. It's the thirds that are the biggest problem.
My understanding is that Cajun one-row boxes are usually tuned to just intonation, which partly accounts for their distinctive sound.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by csharpd
Re: Accordions and tuning.
Ok, maybe rhythm is a bit more important, but when I mean out of tune I mean seriously out of tune, then no matter how good the rhythm is. I think.
My definition of out of tune? I didn't give any. I am very aware of different temperaments, and that's why I write this post. It is precisely equal temperament (piano tuning) which I don't like!
I always tune the fiddle to perfect fifths, by ear. Many people who I play with tune their fiddles with an electronic tuner, and I honestly think thats not good. Among other things they don't develop their ear by doing that, and also if they are not capable of tuning the fiddle how do they expect to play the notes in tune with the fingers?
Thanks for the comments Jeeves. I find this so interesting. : )
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Gregorio
Re: Accordions and tuning.
Thanks everyone!
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Gregorio
Re: Accordions and tuning.
Tuning can be all over depending on your preference in music. Focus on the truth of the tune (I am going to get teased for that one) and the rhythm.
When I started on box, mine was really wet-25 cents or so out. But the older guys who played it thought it was wonderfully warm and said it was a matter of taste. My guitar freinds on the other hand went nuts.
I had it tuned dry. Cleaner sound, actually a bit louder, but fewer complaints. Have to work for the warmth on airs though. Besides, a piano is actually a percussion instrument with strings and needs the tempering to get over the arithmatic issues as tuning goes high or low of A.
With the box, LMH or however you have your reed set, the tempering is more internal note by note.. I don;t know if that makes sense.
I'd say to pray to the Patron Saint of Accordions on this, but I have yet to find one to pray to for divine lightning to strike a crabby guitar player who complains he can't 'tune to the box'!
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by zippydw