Gary it seems like today is your lucky day, i did my MSc thesis in UUJ on the use of music as a means of polticial communication. There is a whole section in my lit review on the stuff you're talking about above.
What a great question - but in reality isn't all music a reflection of our social identity? Whether you're a Goth kid in an industrial disco, a cowboy in Texas, or a rapper in Queens NYC, music is a reflection of how we see the world - and more significantly, how we want the world to see us. All that being said, ITM seems to be one of the few musical generes to transcend social ID's. People from Japan to Jutland are inspired to pick up an instrument like a whistle or a bodhran and dive head first into this incredible music.
We Americans have old tunes that are quite similar or sometimes even the same tunes, but to my untrained ear they all sound different from the Irish tunes to me. So playing the Irish music is not part of my cultural identity, but it has a link.
However, as an American, the lines between certain ethnic cultural things get pretty blurry sometimes. It's common for Americans to sample offerings from all the cultures of the world. It's probably common to appropriate them improperly as well. It's just that so much end up here and if it tastes good we eat it, if it sounds good we listen to and play it, and if it's fun we do it.
Depends how you're answering the question. If you're going for a straight answer based on social culture, social dance as got to be a fairly good place to start - the importance of dance within the community and the function of the music relevant to the dance. A.L. Lloyd's 'Folksong in England' is a decent text that's probably worth a read (despite the title there's a lot of discussion about stuff from outside England, a couple of chapters on Irish culture & music) - there's a LOT of discussion of the function of music. The man was a bit of a raving marxist but, in my experience with that text, it's the sort of thing lecturers seem to like and as a result he's quite into the importance of societies and social structure in trad stuff. Discusses song and tune tradition, though with a bit more of an emphasis on song.
If you're more interested in the more recent history of Eire and Northern Ireland and (in my opinion) pinning political meaning onto tunes that don't have any - most of the next 50 posts will help with that side of things.
Good question though. Glad to hear courses other than mine are posing that sort of question!
What a great question - but in reality isn't all music a reflection of our social identity?
Yay and nay. As you say yourself, it's also about how we form our own identity. So just cause you're Irish and from the countryside (social identity) doesn't mean that you're music will be trad.
ITM seems to be one of the few musical generes to transcend social ID's. People from Japan to Jutland are inspired to pick up an instrument like a whistle or a bodhran and dive head first into this incredible music.
I think that being involved in trad makes us have a blinkered view of this! AFAIK in Japan it's one of only a whole range of traditional (world) musics that people are into.
Why not argue that to be involved in trad. nowadays (esp. as a youngster) means having lots of disposable income - for workshops, Fleadhs, instruments, teachers, festivals - is it really for the 'common man' any more?
And two, I really do not think the troubles in Ireland either now or any other time have had much of an effect on 'the music' (ITM)
Nor does the obviously over worked divide enter into it.
In fact many popular tunes and performers aren't Irish at all!
You might have asked the more accurate question as to how performance art IS part of the Irish character.
Nice place to start, the BBC, or Hollywood esp during the early decades of the last century.
Nah, you just drop in to the local session with your feadog, or your granpappy's auld fiddle tucked under your coat....
And all this galavanting about meeting other musicians just destroys the local style.
But, seriously, we threw a party a couple of years ago, held it at our local Meeting House, and invited friends from all walks of our lives; and astonished the non-musical friends by the quality and quantity of music we produced; in our music-making we had actually discovered a new level of community, and communication.
Continuo - you make some good points, and yes just because you are a country boy from Clare doesn't automatically guarantee you will go up loving trad. I think the main point is for many people their music choices become outward extensions of how they want to be seen in the world. The poeple who show up to sessions in Ireland tend to look like regular people - IMHO. However, at many of the sessions I have been to in the USA, people actually make an attempt to "dress Irish" or worse like some Xena/Celtic wannabe Ren Faire Wiccan Priestess - now clearly their musical choices have influenced their social identity and vice versa - yes?
The mandatory 10,000 hours of practice has traditionally made this the ideal pursuit for solitary confinement- lifers, shipwrecked sailors, Trappist monks etc. More an anti-social identity, maybe.
>You might have asked the more accurate question as to how performance art IS part of the Irish character.
Nice place to start, the BBC, or Hollywood esp during the early decades of the last century
Good comment - reminds me of Glassie's writing on music, song etc. in Fermanagh.
social identity in irish music
social identity in irish music
I have been given an essay to do for uni....its a tough one haha. I wonder do any of you intelligent session.orgers have any ideas on this:
"How is music linked to social identity in the irish context?"
Any ideas will be mucho appreciated!
Gary
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by garyfitz123
Re: social identity in irish music
Gary it seems like today is your lucky day, i did my MSc thesis in UUJ on the use of music as a means of polticial communication. There is a whole section in my lit review on the stuff you're talking about above.
I'll email it to you.
John
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by jfiddlerh
Re: social identity in irish music
Sorry gary email me your proper email cos you can't attach documents through the email facility here?
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by jfiddlerh
Re: social identity in irish music
this was a good bit of banter:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12985
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: social identity in irish music
And this one!
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11115
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Innocent Bystander
Re: social identity in irish music
What a great question - but in reality isn't all music a reflection of our social identity? Whether you're a Goth kid in an industrial disco, a cowboy in Texas, or a rapper in Queens NYC, music is a reflection of how we see the world - and more significantly, how we want the world to see us. All that being said, ITM seems to be one of the few musical generes to transcend social ID's. People from Japan to Jutland are inspired to pick up an instrument like a whistle or a bodhran and dive head first into this incredible music.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: social identity in irish music
We Americans have old tunes that are quite similar or sometimes even the same tunes, but to my untrained ear they all sound different from the Irish tunes to me. So playing the Irish music is not part of my cultural identity, but it has a link.
However, as an American, the lines between certain ethnic cultural things get pretty blurry sometimes. It's common for Americans to sample offerings from all the cultures of the world. It's probably common to appropriate them improperly as well. It's just that so much end up here and if it tastes good we eat it, if it sounds good we listen to and play it, and if it's fun we do it.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: social identity in irish music
Depends how you're answering the question. If you're going for a straight answer based on social culture, social dance as got to be a fairly good place to start - the importance of dance within the community and the function of the music relevant to the dance. A.L. Lloyd's 'Folksong in England' is a decent text that's probably worth a read (despite the title there's a lot of discussion about stuff from outside England, a couple of chapters on Irish culture & music) - there's a LOT of discussion of the function of music. The man was a bit of a raving marxist but, in my experience with that text, it's the sort of thing lecturers seem to like and as a result he's quite into the importance of societies and social structure in trad stuff. Discusses song and tune tradition, though with a bit more of an emphasis on song.
If you're more interested in the more recent history of Eire and Northern Ireland and (in my opinion) pinning political meaning onto tunes that don't have any - most of the next 50 posts will help with that side of things.
Good question though. Glad to hear courses other than mine are posing that sort of question!
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Andy V
Re: social identity in irish music
What a great question - but in reality isn't all music a reflection of our social identity?
Yay and nay. As you say yourself, it's also about how we form our own identity. So just cause you're Irish and from the countryside (social identity) doesn't mean that you're music will be trad.
ITM seems to be one of the few musical generes to transcend social ID's. People from Japan to Jutland are inspired to pick up an instrument like a whistle or a bodhran and dive head first into this incredible music.
I think that being involved in trad makes us have a blinkered view of this! AFAIK in Japan it's one of only a whole range of traditional (world) musics that people are into.
Why not argue that to be involved in trad. nowadays (esp. as a youngster) means having lots of disposable income - for workshops, Fleadhs, instruments, teachers, festivals - is it really for the 'common man' any more?
(Ducking in advance)....
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by continuo
Re: social identity in irish music
Wot's social identity?
And two, I really do not think the troubles in Ireland either now or any other time have had much of an effect on 'the music' (ITM)
Nor does the obviously over worked divide enter into it.
In fact many popular tunes and performers aren't Irish at all!
You might have asked the more accurate question as to how performance art IS part of the Irish character.
Nice place to start, the BBC, or Hollywood esp during the early decades of the last century.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Schlongbow
Re: social identity in irish music
Nah, you just drop in to the local session with your feadog, or your granpappy's auld fiddle tucked under your coat....
And all this galavanting about meeting other musicians just destroys the local style.
But, seriously, we threw a party a couple of years ago, held it at our local Meeting House, and invited friends from all walks of our lives; and astonished the non-musical friends by the quality and quantity of music we produced; in our music-making we had actually discovered a new level of community, and communication.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: social identity in irish music
Continuo - you make some good points, and yes just because you are a country boy from Clare doesn't automatically guarantee you will go up loving trad. I think the main point is for many people their music choices become outward extensions of how they want to be seen in the world. The poeple who show up to sessions in Ireland tend to look like regular people - IMHO. However, at many of the sessions I have been to in the USA, people actually make an attempt to "dress Irish" or worse like some Xena/Celtic wannabe Ren Faire Wiccan Priestess - now clearly their musical choices have influenced their social identity and vice versa - yes?
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: social identity in irish music
The mandatory 10,000 hours of practice has traditionally made this the ideal pursuit for solitary confinement- lifers, shipwrecked sailors, Trappist monks etc. More an anti-social identity, maybe.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by P-K
Re: social identity in irish music
>You might have asked the more accurate question as to how performance art IS part of the Irish character.
Nice place to start, the BBC, or Hollywood esp during the early decades of the last century
Good comment - reminds me of Glassie's writing on music, song etc. in Fermanagh.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by continuo
Re: social identity in irish music
irish musicians aren't socially inclined:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14583
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14342
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14300
theres more, but i cant find them
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by rob_handel
Re: social identity in irish music
Middle class, maybe not by birth, but inclination. Sort of aesthetes, political minded, trendies.
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by bodhran bliss