I don't often post, but this one was really weird.
Playin' in a session at the local venue -- a man comes up to me and says: "I'm new in town, I have my bass in the car, mind if I bring it in and join you."
Me thinks and answers:
"If you know the tunes, you're welcome to join us."
Man says:
"I've been playin' Caley's for 45 years and never had anyone tell me I can't play!" and storms out.
I looks around for the piano and snare drum in our session, and finding them not, sit there in wonder, till a fellow sessioneer says:
"better a little pain now than a lot of pain later."
Sometimes I wish I lived on a not-so-angry planet.
I think "So what are your favorite tunes?" is a good way to deal with someone who asks to borrow a guitar and have a go. Often--here in the U.S. at least--the asker can't name a single tune. And usually, they take the gentle hint that playing tunes is not the same thing as "jamming on some blues."
I've had a whale of a time with a bass at my plaice. After herring the news, me mate pops in with his double roe and says "I'm not going to skate around the issue, eel have to go". Anyway, after a few tunas, he said "Rudd-y hell, he's BRILL
I was there that night. Something was off about the guy. He sat over near me and seemed really agitated. Then he went over and sat near you. I didn't hear the exchange of words, but it was pretty predictable that he would be a problem eventually.
Is the spelling of ceilidh / ceili as "Caley" yours or a phonetic representation of his pronunication?
Because I find the idea of someone who can't spell "ceilidh" having notions about what instruments "fit" in a session deliciously ironic. It's also a rather rude and supercillious thing to say to a stranger, which I suspect you would not have said if he were a flautist - which rather implies a somewhat eliteist attitude. I have to confess I find this rather sad and out of the spirit of things.
I know a chap who regularly takes his double bass to a session (he's also a rather skilled guitarist and B/C + C#/D player) who's frankly a great addition to the music. You might have done yourself out of an assest to your session that night. In retrospect, of course, this may be no bad thing.
Ack--the misspelling thing never occurred to me. I assumed it was "Caley's Pub" or whatever, that was the site of the session.
Although if the bassist did play in ceili bands for 45 years, he might have grinned and said, "Well, sure, I know a few tunes..." and proceeded to list them until Eliot surrendered.
I wonder if we will ever learn whether Eliot's session escaped a nasty situation with an unstable personality--or missed a great opportunity.
>I wonder if we will ever learn whether Eliot's session escaped a nasty situation with an unstable personality--or missed a great opportunity.< I strongly suspect the former. I see such personalities all the time. I'm a court reporter, plus I live just outside an urban area where quite a few of them live and roam. I also used to be the office manager for a homeless placement service in San Francisco. And such a jarringly inappropriate response is in my experience a sure sign of a problem that's a lot bigger than anything you said or might have said. If I saw someone about to be deposed act like that just prior to a deposition I had to report, I would absolutely make sure that I wasn't alone with them at any time. Sounds to me like this guy heard something in his head rather than something you actually said. It's not uncommon in that population.
Maybe you just have to be around it as much as I have for this to make any sense. However, I really do think it worked out for the best.
All said ... I did worry a bit afterwards that the chum would return with a weapon of some sort -- in this world one can never quite feel safe,
on the other foot...
if someone told me I couldn't play the flute unless I knew the tunes, and it was a classical concert, you know, Mozart or something, I'd surely storm out in a huff, and feel out of sorts that I was treated so badly, after all, I've been playing flute for, well, 35 years and never had anyone tell me I couldn't play flute in a classical concert!
Re: Angry bass player storms out...because the players forget the ethos of a session
Wow, some of you are really judgemental. From angry to mentally ill to an alcoholic....a musician cops some smartarse giving him a conditional yes to a visitor's question and all of a sudden he's the bad guy? *LOL*
I'm with Andy. The response was plain rude. And yes, it did turn out for the best: that the poor bloke was spared your appalling attitudes.
I'd be interested in knowing whether it was an electric or acoustic bass. If acoustic, he might indeed have been a sensitive and responsible addition to the session. If electric, what kind of amp did he intend to use? 15W practice amp, or 120W of rumbling vibration? His intended gear would tell you a lot about whether he was going to wreck your session or not.
You could have conversationally sussed out his intentions, without being a smartass. True, sometimes you have to say no, but try to make it an informed decision.
If he'd come up to me at one of our sessions I would have said "no, f**k off, you weren't invited, and by the way how did you get in the house without a key?"
I don't agree it was a fair enough question. It's unacceptably rude to talk to anyone you've never met before in such a manner, let alone a fellow musician asking to join in with you. It's arrogant, supercillious and frankly uncalled for. If the bloke had been playing in ceilidh bands for 45 years then there's a fair chance he's more experienced than you (there was no reply as to whether "Caley" is the name of a pub or a gratuitous misspelling).
Certainly around here it's common courtesy to give the visiting musicians at least 3 or 4 sets to demonstrate themselves "unsuitable", at which point people will have words. It's sad you took this decision based solely on his instrument. And I feel it says many negative things towards your attitude towards traditional music.
I wonder whether he had 45 years of experience playing in 'ceilidh' bands or 'céilí' bands or 'céilidh' bands...
Experience playing in a band does *not* equal experience playing in sessions when it comes to questions of repertoire, etiquette, styles, arrangements, etc. If he'd had that many years of session experience, the reaction he got would not have come as a surprise to him.
And here's the thing. Why did he ask in the first place? You assume that just because he asked permission to join in, he was a nice bloke with manners. I interpreted it very differently. The fact that he had a tantrum shows that he was expecting to be welcomed with open arms from the outset. That shows he has a massive ego. He might just as well have sat down and started playing without even introducing himself. You should never simply "expect" to be allowed to join automatically like that - doesn't matter what instrument you're playing. The session is for the people who make it, and it's up to them what they want to do with their music. It's not up to an outsider to decide what's what. He was in the wrong in this instance by the sound of it, in that he came to the session expecting it to serve his needs and his needs only.
If I'd been in Eliot's position, I wouldn't have even posted this thread. Just forget about it - the guy was obviously a wenker.
Then you and I are going to have to disagree on this, Andy. Eliot is neither arrogant nor supercilious. If the guy had indeed been "playing in ceili [?] bands for 45 years", as he claimed, then he should bloody well know the tunes by now, so what was he afraid of ? I would also point out that you can play for 45 years and still be crap, so I'm not particularly impressed by that statement. If he'd gone and got his bass and fitted in, no problem. He chose not to - that was his choice.
No, I get it Dow. Private gathering of friends for dinner and a session. Some stranger shows up at the door uninvited looking to join in and you tell him to "f**k off, you weren't invited". Fair enough.
But would you take the same attitude if it were a pub session (as is the case in question, if I'm not mistaken), or would you be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt?
Maybe you would. Maybe I'm wronging you (and apologies if I am), but not knowing you personally, I can only go by what I see from your posts.
Yes tradshark, I'm afraid you're right. I'm really, really, really horrible, and a total snob, sneering all the time and giving people evils, just how you imagine me to be. Anyone I ever meet at a session: the first words I say to them are "f**k off". Just in case anyone takes exception to that and tries to start on me, I always arm myself with a protractor, which I can throw with a skilful flick of the wrist so that it lodges in the victim's neck and kills them instantly.
I don't see a mildly qualified "you're welcome to join us" as rude or unacceptable. The bloke chose to throw a wobbly at that point.
Play in the same ceilidh band for 45 years and you may be playing much the same half dozen tune sets all that time!
For anyone who wasn't there, the bare words as reported leave out so much of tone of voice, the actual situation etc, that it's hard to justify getting dogmatic about it. But hey, this is thesession.org
Kills them instantly Dow? Surely they die a protracted death.
But back on topic - I find it hard to understand how anybody (either the angry bass player, or his defenders on this thread) can possibly understand Eliot's word to the Angry Bass Player as either questioning his ability or making him unwelcome.
"If you know the tunes you're welcome to join us"
Where's the rudeness or unwelcoming in that?
And as for the carp about being able or unable to spell ceilidh - that's just laughable.
Eliot, I am afraid that you have become the latest person to start us down a frustrating road. Might I suggest that discussions of an event that almost none of us witnessed, where the only evidence we have are little snippets of easy to misinterpret text, are rather meaningless efforts. We all dance around, presenting our preconcieved notions and predjudices, and inevitably someone takes something the wrong way, and since there are few facts to keep the discussion on track, everything deteriorates into bickering.
Reading a written description of an event and trying to draw conclusions from it is like trying to learn The Music entirely from sheet music.
I finished playing a session in Cork last summer, only to have three american guys come up and thank me for the music, no problem there, always glad that somebody enjoyed it, makes all the hard work that you put into it worthwhile. However one of them said that we reminded him of Miles Davis or John Coltrane! When asked how he had reached this conclusion, it turns out that he though that we were improvising the whole thing, and I'm not talking about ornamentation here, he genuinely thought that we were making it all up as we went along!!! I kid you not...
The man was clearly mentally, alcoholic or both when I saw him sitting next to me in the audience. He was fidgiting, rocking back and forth, kept getting up and sitting back down again, sighing and making noises under his breath. He looked agitated and angry. I think he was even wearing a jacket and it was about 85 degrees F inside the bar.
I don't believe for a minute he had a bass outside in his car. I don't think he even had a car out there.
The place where the session is held is nearby to many homeless shelters and rehab transition houses and things like that. I think it's almost across the street from a soup kitchen.
I think he heard the music and like many of us wanted to be part of it. But being an unstable individual, which you could sense immediately, the natural reaction to his request was to put him off long enough to verify if he really was as unstable as he appeared. And he was.
So what would you all do if a mentally ill homeless alcoholic person caused a scene at your session?
sbhikes,
I, speaking only for myself, would politely fend off anyone who was very likely to impose on the rights of the other
sessioneers. While charity is a good thing, it should begin at home. No one should be welcome to spoil things for everyone else in any rational community. The rights of the many vs. the needs of the individual? You already have my vote on that.
Al,
I tend to agree with tradshark that the "bickering" is fun for many who post here. But do you not enjoy speculating about human behaviour, and bouncing around a few "What if...?"s....? It seems to me you do, having taken the trouble to read this far into this thread.
I do agree with your assertion that this type of discussion is a pursuit that is, finally, fruitless. But it is entertaining and stimulating. And it can make us think (some of us) about the way we communicate and get along with our fellows.
Personnally, I also can do without any sniping and serious bickering, but even there I try to just cull it from the mix and focus on the subject. As it was recently rather strongly pointed out to me here at thesession, many of the posters have known each other a long time. I do not always know what they are really talking about amongst themselves, or how appropriate or inappropriate they are amongst themselves.
It may be a "family" matter, and if so, well --- have you ever stepped in between two brothers having a row?
And Eliot,
it is an angry planet, but do not let it get you down. The sun does come shining through sometimes. It just sounds like you had a bad experience, and that is what can happen with humans. You cannot get along with everyone.
Anyway, blah blah blah -- but it was worth reading so many plays on "bass' -- hooked me right away.
I suppose there was an implication in the original post that this guy had an anger problem. We weren't to know that though until a fuller description was offered.
There was also an implication of consensus that a bass of any sort has no place at a session and , along with andy@newcastle I think , I'd say that this isn't necessarily true at all.
sbhikes, Hope I didn't offend you, I didn't mean to suggest that you folks did not do the right thing in your situation (upon further expaination, it sounds like you did). I am merely pointing out that this type of discussion can often be frustrating and divisive in our little viritual community, since no matter how well the facts are laid out in writing, it is difficult to assess what happened when we weren't there.
Rook, Good comments, and I grew up with four brothers, so I know exactly what you mean about getting in the midst of an argument between them (or being one of the arguers)!!!
Here is my take -- I was rude, no doubt. I am willing to accept that and continue with the conversation.
It gets back to the "backer" discussion - I have played with bass players before who joined our band at the Contra dances without ever practicing with us, but the tunes were "easy."
The sign on the wall of a rather famous session reads (session rules):
1) If you don't know the tune, don't play it
2) At most one bohdran
3) No whining
Being rude is not new to our community. But this community does not have a corner on such behavior which is the sadness I feel about life in general right now.
On being told he could play if he knew the tunes, he took this as meaning he was being told not to play. Therefore he didn't know *any* tunes, since without knowing what the tunes were, he knew he didn't know them.
If he had been playing ceilidhs, (rather than in a bar called 'Caley's') for 45 years, then he had obviously succeeded in doing this without ever learning any tunes at all.
So what was he planning to play? Either he was an all-purpose bass noodler, or he was trouble.
What I find quite inexplicable is what on earth makes the story as portrayed at the top "man walks into bar, asks if he could join you on bass, gets a reply that lacks in social grace and takes umbridge" funnier, more interesting or better than "lunatic, who couldn't prevent himself from dancing a improvised quickstep, attempts to join in with session using imaginary bass, currently in an entirely ficticious car outside"
Also, why is it that no one finds the qualification of the reply rude, purely in a social sense? To analogise it, if someone offered an opening conversational gambit at a function would you reply "I'm only prepared to continue this conversation if you have something interesting to say or can otherwise be of use to me?" Most people, I hope, would give the subject a couple of minutes to prove interesting and politely disengage if proved not. Maybe people had a diffent upbringing to me.
Enough. Although I'd dearly love to know exactly when it was that this sort of thing sufficiently annoyed me as to post on internet messageboards about it.....
It's all speculation and blether, hot air from below.
We don't know what manner the guy had about him.
We don't know in what manner the reply was given.
We don't know exactly how accurately the incident was reported.
We have the words of one side of the incident only.
We can imagine the scene in any number of different lights. It signifies nothing.
It was posted on here, so it's up for discussion as it stands.
Just from the first post, I think various ones of us could imagine ourselves on either side of the incident.
I still think "f**k off" woulda been the way to go. I mean, evidently he didn't even play an instrument, and was therefore of no use to you whatsoever, and even if he was telling the truth and he did play an instrument, it was only a bass, so he was therefore of no use to you whatsoever. The only use he might have been was as someone to buy in rounds of drinks, but he doesn't even sound like the sort of person who'd be happy to do that...
If you really took exception to his tantrum you could have made things a bit more interesting by finding the biggest hardest bloke in the pub, and going up to him and saying "see that man over there? He said your wife's an ugly slut" and then sitting back down to watch the fun
Isn't a session a form of social conversation ?
Not to be confused with the words in between, which are subject to so many forms of interpretation.
As a further comment....the place of worship I regularly attend is just round the corner from a mental institution. We occasionaly have visitors from this other place. Some, although obviously disturbed, find some comfort, whilst others seem more intent on creating a disturbance.
Mr. Bass Man, you've got that certain somethin'
Mr. Bass Man, you set that music thumpin'
To you it's easy when you go 1-2-3
Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-bah
You mean ba-bah-ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-bah
Yeah! Mr. Bass Man, you're on all the songs
With the bip-bip-boom-boom
And the dit-dit-bom-bom-bom
Hey Mr. Bass Man, you're the hidden King of Rock 'n' Roll
Ba-ba-ba-bah, No-no, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-bah ...
Oh, it don't mean a thing when the lead is singin'
Or when he goes Hi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yah
Hey Mr. Bass Man, I'm askin' just one thing
Will you teach me, mmm, yeah, the way you sing
'Cause Mr. Bass Man, I wanna be a bass man too
Ba-ba-ba-bah
Try this, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-boom
Oh Mr Bass Man, I really think I'm winnin'
With the bip-bip-boom-boom
And the dit-dit, dit-dit-da-dah
Hey Mr. Bass Man, now I'm a bass man too
Ba-ba-ba-bah
That's it, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-boom
Ba-ba-boom-boom ...
Now you
Ba-ba-boom-boom ...
With me
Ba-ba-boom-boom ...
Oh, it don't mean a thing when the lead is singin'
Or when he goes "Hi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yah"
Hey Mr. Bass Man, I'm askin' just one thing
Will you teach me, mmm, yeah, the way you sing
'Cause Mr. Bass Man, I wanna be a bass man too
Ba-ba-ba-bah
Try this, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-boom
Oh Mr Bass Man, I really think I'm winning
With the bip-bip-boom-boom and the dit-dit-bom-bom-bom
Oh Mr. Bass Man, now I'm a bass man too
Ba-ba-ba-bah
That's it, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-boom
If you were a good musician and did know the tunes, then "you can join in if you know the tunes" from strangers - at a *public house* , not a private house, would sound patronising and snotty. No question about it, no matter how nicely meant.
If the guy was an obvious nutter and likely session-wrecker, then any way of getting rid of him would be good enough I suppose.
I've been on both sides where someone was insistent on joining in and made such a noise that no one else could play, and also been treated to the "you're obviously not *one of us*, go away" attitude when I was a stranger. It's not very pleasant, but as a stranger, one is sensitive to the reactions of the group one is seeking to join, and anything less than overt friendliness (which is by far the norm in pub sessions) comes across as territorial and cliquey.
This is not discussing the first post , or what actually happened there, so much ,as the hypothetical questions arising from the post as it was written, and ensuing reactions.
I think it's pretty clear from Eliot's subsequent posts that this guy was most likely a wrecker.
I didn't think the response "if you know the tunes, you're welcome to join us" was out of line in the slightest.
I remember being 19 years old and invited to a dixieland jam. I had a tenor banjo (I tuned it like the top 4 strings of a guitar in those days, to make life simpler). Everyone in the venue was over 60 except me.
The bandleader glowered at me from behind the piano and said "Kid, do you know old jazz?"
I said "sure." I was fresh out of the orchestra pit for an old broadway show called "The Boyfriend" and though I didn't know the tunes by name, I knew the conventions and basic bread-and-butter changes ok.
He obviously didn't trust me and said "Do me a favor, kid. If you don't know it, don't play it!"
He was right. And I didn't.
I had no problem with him whatsoever.
What I did do was lay out each tune the first time through, pick up the changes, and kick in the second. Worked just fine. If I needed a hint or a heads-up, the bass player would whisper it to me before the tune.
But "If you don't know it, don't play it" is fantastic session advice.
Mike E., a piper in San Diego I enjoy playing with when I get to, has a graceful way of discouraging clueless guitar players prior to them sitting in his sessions. Or at least a way of sussing them out first. He should maybe post a thread on how he does that.
i've been on the receiving end of unfriendly responses when requesting to sit in on sessions, and your response doesn't seem unfriendly to me. Also, as a full time musician, i've come to trust my judgement on people asking to join in , or sing a song etc. My initial response to them has always been right.If they seemed ok, they were. If they had a dodgy vibe about them, they were.If it's your session, it's your choice who can sit in.
To me the issue isn't really about whether you let people sit in or not, it's about friendliness..or maybe even more basic than that-common courtesy. I've been told both yes and no in sessions, and some of the no's were more polite than the yes's! A "sorry, but we tend to just play this evening as the 4 of us" or suchlike is actually more welcome to a newcomer than a "well i guess we can't stop you, can we?".I was once given permission to join in by "well, you won't put ME off!" Anyone new to an area or a pub knows it can be nervewracking to walk up to a big group off musicians round a table who obviously all know each other and ask to join in. So come on guys lets all just be polite and give the newbie credit for having the balls to come over and ask!
How sad. So, first, you are all experts in figuring out mental states and conditions of people you've never met before, and able to understand their feelings and motivations. You must be to say things like "The guy was squirming and pacing and acting all agitated and angry way before he ever approached Eliot." Couldn't possible be angst over how he figured he'd be rejected by some trad snobs, eh?
And asking if he knew the tunes is worthless anyway. If you are a melody player, you may have different variations of the tunes, and if you are a backing player how could you ever know that your choice of chords is going to be the exact same as the rest? There are many ways to back the same tune, you know... And a good backing player will do amazingly well and just fitting in.
I've had it with purist snobs holding on to their "officially sanctioned" instruments knowing that God put them in the session Himself and others have to just suffer in the cold outside or risk the brimstone of their wrath if they dare try to join.
Play nicer? Adopt an "innocent till proven guilty" approach to session-wreckers, if they cause trouble politiely inform them of the norms you expect if your session. If they aren't prepared to conform to them, politely but firmly insist they leave. A quiet word with your landlord can help ease the wheels if the bloke then becomes unpleasant and needs ejecting. It wasn't even as if he posed a threat to your instruments, seeing as he asked to fetch his own in.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this would have been an entirely different story if he'd asked to join you with a set of pipes, fiddle, flute etc; you would assume that the player of a melody instrument would know the tunes. Largely based upon the fact that Eliot felt that simply letting a bassist join you would cause "...a lot of pain later" (or at the very least, didn't oppose the view & so held it by default) then, as such, it's not unlikely to suggest this would have been projected in the manner of his reply.
Hmmm .. I've always seen it as a privelige to play with other musicians. Conditions will be there no matter what dysfunctional democratic fantasies one endulges.
Also - In joining in cold - one must be sensitive to the rapport that has been established. For instance - would you but-in to an earnest conversation between nuclear physicists? perhapse your PHD would get you the ticket, but your drumsticks might earn a cold-shoulder.
Let's assume the man really did know the tunes - I can imagine him listening to the music and thinking "I'd love to play along with this!" but feeling like an outsider has an internal conflict - working up the courage to ask to join-in. That would explain the agitation. Now if this bloke had a bit of a confidence problem, then his pesimism might be expecting the rejection - at which point even the politest response might be taken as a rejection. This kind of thing is common.
It all seems like stock fare - the fish defeated himself before he even started.
Eliot, it seems, was perplexed by this enought to post. I think it's important to get resolution on such things - this is how we learn about ourselves. I'd say the conflict between hospitality and the need to keep the session in full swing will make the man sensitive to gross negatives - but the answer is simple: You are responsible for the session, the door you open is your door - it's up to the other to work out if he can fit through.
Okay, so I was perhaps a bit harsh above myself. Sorry.
One does have to wonder, though, about the dynamics of why you have a session in a public house in the first place if you want to treat the circle as though it were a close-knit group of friends... Why not only play at your private house and not have the bother of deflecting those who want to spoil your fun?
If it's a performance issue, then find someone who will book you as a performance and there is no confusion. While I agree with and understand the "not just anything goes" with walking up to and joining in a session, I would think that giving someone the chance would be preferred to such negative "prove yourself first" approaches.
I say that after having seen bluegrass players invade a nice session and destroy it, but in that particular case it was perhaps the session on it's way out anyway and this was just the little nudge it needed to realize it wasn't standing firmly anyway.
But, really, and maybe a separate thread, why should a session be in a public house and then be so closed to 'outsiders' joining in?
Generally, if someone is polite enough to ask if they can sit in, we invite them to. We prefer straightforward traditional instruments and musicianship, but that doesn't mean we shut out all others. We've had people sit in with cello, electronic keyboard, Johnny Cash songs, an erhu, even Highland pipes once (they were just too loud). But none of these lasted long, mostly because the player recognized they weren't really adding to the music.
When someone with an instrument not typically found in Irish sessions asks to sit in, I usually say something along the lines of: "Well, slide trombone isn't an instrument we usually see at an Irish session. We're playing tunes from memory within a fairly specific traditional body of music. But you're welcome to give it a try."
This gives fair warning that we're not just jamming--improvising against a chord progression. And it also gives them enough information to maybe frame a question or two about how our session works.
At worst, I've had to politley ask the person to stop after a set or two, most often because their instrument is just too loud for the rest of us to hear anything.
At best, we've been treated to some wonderful music by excellent musicians. Sometimes they fit in. More often they give us a "party piece" or two during a lull in the sets, enjoyed by all.
But session life in a bigger city might beg for a more guarded response. I don't think Eliot's approach was out of line. Not knowing much about that actual situation (so this could be way off base), I could imagine a slightly softer approach: Ask him what sort of bass it is--upright, acoustic guitar, or electric. Depending on the answer, explain the concerns about volume. By this point, if you're still having a conversation, try to suss out what his experience with Irish trad music is, if any. If little to none, perhaps suggest that he sit and listen for a spell, and explain the difference between a session and a jam, and the concept of playing in unison, with attention on the many nuances, which becomes harder to do if one instrument fills in all the space with a loud or constant sound.
Given the information Eliot has posted, I don't understand why the gent was agnered by Eliot's response. Unless he thought it was just an improv jam.
Corwumph. (I've always wanted to say that - anyone who read "Jennings" will know why).
Cello, not traditional??? That's a bit bloody misinformed. Actually quite common in Scots dance bands 150 years ago - they would 'vamp' a bass line (JSS started his musical career doing this).
Piano is also traditional in dance style playing and still is an integral part of the Cape Breton style (and electric keyboard is simply the portable modern version of this).
Is the reason they weren't contributing because you'd already decide they didn't fit, so weren't prepared to let them?
Andy, why jump to such nasty conclusions? And here you were just berating Eliot for his manners....
I play Irish music in a pub session, not in a 150 yearold Scots dance band. Cello is not a common instrument in any of the Irish sessions I've ever nbeen to. Are you seriously questioning that?
We welcomed the cello players (two different people)--but they really weren't familiar with the jigs and reels. One guy did learn a few tunes and did a nice job of them on cello. They also both played drones that fit what the rest of us were playing. I thought it was a lot of fun and invited them both back, but they had other priorities (one is now in seminary, the other finishing his music degree out of town).
As for the piano--again, we play mostly Irish music in an Irish session style, not Cape Breton. We've enjoyed various forms of piano over the years, including having Felix Dolan sit in with us on a concert grand once--that was a most memorable evening! Again, the piano player had other priorities--she mainly plays mandolin and accordion in a string band, so she shows up at our session only once in a blue moon. We always offer her a good seat and enjoy her music.
I realize that you might have a chip on your shoulder about Eliot's treatment of the bass player because you're a bass player yourself. But if you take the chip down you might see that I was actually posting in support of welcoming people to sessions, regardless of what their instrument is.
Well, yes, clearly I'm incredibly biased. That I'm a bassist is in my bio, and I would expect anyone responding to anything I wrote to either be aware of that, or not mind, and take my opinions with a pinch of salt. And to be honest, I don't care as much as I might seem - I'm partly playing devil's advocate to keep a debate, which has some interesting themes in it, going.
Eliot has a point, no one really feels at ease either talking to or playing with a stranger, for reasons of both insecurity and uncertainty. But I'd rather people here admit this then suggest the chap was unsuitable for the session for other reasons. And, as you said, if someone with something a bit different turns up they're likely to get a reply that questions their suitability. Truthfully, you're more likely to suffer trouble from someone toting a guitar or a bodhran, or even someone with a fiddle or whistle with a bad attitude.
I wasn't jumping to a conclusion (I did phrase it as a question, but even so apologies if this was construed as an insult, it did tread a rather thin line), and the aim of the question was to draw out a thoughtful reply. Which you more than obliged me with. I actually do go to a session where there's is occasionally a cellist, however I do accept this is a rarity. Non-traditional, however, I won't accept without qualification. Feel free to disagree, your tradition may be exlusively Irish, mine (not having been brought up in a traditionally minded community, or really even family) is more a mongrel breed of Scots, Northumbrian, Irish and English, with some Scandinavian stuff thrown in as well - so to me the cello is more traditional than the guitar, however it's entirely reasonable that to you it isn't.
i want to point out again that the words "if..you're welcome to join us" can't be construed as rude. As a working musician (not in ITM) from experience I can say the problem isn't eager beginners, it's drunk or genuinely unstable people, and in those situations the LAST thing you want to do is let them in. Examples:
A guy I know in the U.K. had his brand new Lowden guitar (2500 sterling) turned to matchwood by a drunk.
I remember a (singing) gig I did in a bar in Dingle, we had got the signal from the landlord for 2 more songs, which we announced. Some guy came in the door with a big hand drum and asked quite boisterously if he could play. (i found out later that this guy is a member of Afro Celt Sound System). I said that we were nearly finished but he was welcome. We did 1 song and started our last (the usual singalong we always did with this crowd). The drummer guy started to play independently as loudly as possible, oblivious to both us and the crowd. So i stopped the song and told him we didn't have time for his solo as we'd been give the signal. He stood up, called me a bad word, kicked the table with our speaker on sending 2 full pint glasses smashing on the floor and stormed out shouting.
My point is, the guy was either psychotic or (I suspect ) drugged up to his sad hippy-dippy-hand-drumming-get-yourself-a-real-instrument-you-loser eyeballs. The mistake I made in this situation was to let him sit down. To those beginners nervous to ask for permission to join in I can only say, yes there ARE rude jerks out there in sessions, but there may also be a genuine concern about how your inclusion could affect both atmosphere and music, because there are jerks wanting to join in too!
ok i gotta get back to the real world now god help me!
Shelagh, the only reason this thread should scare you off sessions is if you have no manners. In which case, people at sessions will be glad you're not darkening their door anytime soon.
But I suspect you **do** have manners. All you have to do to be welcome at a session is use them. Listen first to see if the session is one you can contribute to. Then politley ask if you can join in. You'll soon enjoy a new circle of friends.
Bottom line: A session is not somewhere you go so other people can hear you play music. A session is an opportunity to play music with other people, listening to them.
If you're hell-bent on being the center of attention, join a band.
If people will take their best instrument to a pub session then really, what to expect? (Quite aside from the fact that I don't really like Lowdens, the loss of a decent instrument is a sad thing - although on the bright side they're relatively easily replaced - irreperable damage to a 1850s violin is far worse)
I'd like to mention in passing that I do regard stopping as a bit unprofessional - however I can't comment on how bad it was.
The point is this - if you view a session as analogous to a conversation, then qualifying the "yes, join us" is a bit rude, unless the person in question is a potential threat to an instrument. If you see it as a bit of a performance then, I respectfully reserve your right to disagree.
Well, yes, I can assure you that I do have good manners - having been impeccably brought up. But I'm also sometimes psychotic, smell of smoke, and I have been known to tap my feet too loudly. Sometimes I even clap after a rousing set by the local sessioneers. (you see I didn't realise you were all doing it for yourselves, not for us onlookers - I now realise this is not the done thing).. My big question is: why don't you all go and play in your own houses and then we non-session members won't get confused by the required etiquette. We can always play the jukebox.
Still love the music, though.
> ...Truthfully, you're more likely to suffer trouble from someone toting a guitar or a bodhran, or even someone with a fiddle or whistle with a bad attitude...
A good bass player - without knowing all the exact notes in the tunes - could add a great deal to any type of music, including Irish TM without anyone even really noticing that the bass is there.
There is a Sharon Shannon recording in youtube, Mouth of the Tobique, wouldn't sound as good without the bass, I'm sure.
trust me, andy@newcastle, it was bad. Let me reiterate, he interrupted US, we had already started to play a song and he set off on his own conflicting rhythm as loud as possible over the top, oblivious to the music, the mood of the room or of any basic courtesy. At that moment the professional thing was to stop him from disrupting what was before then a very cosy and friendly little gig. You should have seen the looks on the faces of the crowd and the landlord who, at the end of the day, was our employer for that 3 hrs.Plus lets be frank, it was obvious by this point that the guy was just a knob!
The Lowden had a drunks foot put through it a wedding gig, not a session. I've never been to a session quite that rowdy! (so far)
also, i have to say, it seems pretty clear you are not on a professional musician's salary if you think a 2500 sterling instrument is easily replaced!!!
I'm a music student. The insurance on my guitar covers me against accidental damage, criminal damage, theft, burglary, fire, acts of god (I like to think that God wouldn't trash my instrument!), civil disobediance, war (I think) and a medly of other things (its been a while since I read the documents but I'm fairly sure I'm not covered against animal stampedes, unless it was started maliciously). It's with about a £200 excess, which is a bit crap, however it allows me to replace my guitar with something else if I decide that the resultant wait from using the bloke who built mine would affect my studies.
On those ground, a £2500 guitar, if insured up to the hilt (which any professional's main instrument should be) is easily replaced, particularly as Lowdens are relatively easy to obtain. And a damn sight easier than replacing a 150 year old fiddle.
I may be wrong, but I think you need to look at your insurance cover more closely, andy. I'm sure acts of "civil disobedience" and "war" are usually exclusions, at least in most policies I've seen.
Had another look - I actually rang my insurance company to iron out the finer points of it and had a rather fun chat with one of their more bored legal people (2pm on a Wednesday afternoon evidently sees insurers feeling rather flippant). Upshot - if my guitar and I go into a warzone, the guitar gets caught in some sort of crossfire and sustains damage the insurance doesn't stand. If the guitar is removed from my posession by someone representing one of the factions then a criminal act is seen to have occurred in the eyes of the British legal system and I can claim. In terms of civil disobediance it's much the same; if it's removed by force I can claim, if there's looting in the offing then it's my loss.
Of course, seeing as I don't leave the country with my guitar, if any of these things happen there's a fair chance that getting a claim in will be the least of my concerns.....
In my defence, I don't start work 'till 3! And it's the middle of summer.
Seriously though, get instruments insured! Mine's through the same people my dad sorts out his house insurance with, but if you're in the MU there's some sort of discount if you do it through them.
actually i own a lowden, but only use it for 'respectable' solo gigs, recitals, wedding ceremony perfomances etc. (some cool photos of it on my wsite www.hakanozel.com). For pub gigs, sessions etc i've i really cool cheap Westfield that retails about 350 quid and i got for 100 from Cash Converters! god bless em! thats one other approach to the insurance issue.
Oddly, the Westfield appears to be the guitar you have in the photo for your website. Highly curious! Then again, I did hear a rather amusing story about a jazzer I know who wanted to have his promo pictures taken with his favourite Selmer-Maccaferi copy and spent a fair bit of time polishing it the night before. Result - a guitar that was reflecting so much of the indirect flashes he had to be shot using someone elses rather battered looking ES-335.
yeh ur right about the photos..thats what comes from living in 2 countries at once! My Lowden is in the UK, that photo was taken here in Prague.I travel back and forth quite a bit-most UK gigs are more fancy wedding type things, and here in Prague it's bashing out The Proclaimers for stag parties! theres a couple of photos on the site from a wedding in the UK with my Lowden
but thanks for reminding me..everytime i see that photo it bugs me it's the cheap guitar..
btw why don't you like Lowdens? the only issue i have is im quite short and they are pretty big, otherwise i love them.
Largely the shape of the neck. It just doesn't sit quite right in my hand - and the way it spreads my fingers out always makes it seem like a fingerpicker's guitar than a flatpicker's guitar. But then I'm used to guitars with very flat neck profiles. I also find the standard string spacing a little more than I get get my pick around for quick string crossing. That said, it's probably also that I'm so used to my own guitar which has got more than a few perculiarities of its own than whenever I get offered someone elses it feels wierd to me.
i think ur right if i remember they even used to say something on their original website about it being the ultimate fingerpicking guitar or somesuch..for flatpicking the cheap westfield is easier. and it's pretty impossible to play 'thumb over the top' chords on the Lowden. (unless ur Pierre Bensusan, i've watched him do it seemingly effortlessly).
Angry bass player storms out...
Angry bass player storms out...
Well...
I don't often post, but this one was really weird.
Playin' in a session at the local venue -- a man comes up to me and says: "I'm new in town, I have my bass in the car, mind if I bring it in and join you."
Me thinks and answers:
"If you know the tunes, you're welcome to join us."
Man says:
"I've been playin' Caley's for 45 years and never had anyone tell me I can't play!" and storms out.
I looks around for the piano and snare drum in our session, and finding them not, sit there in wonder, till a fellow sessioneer says:
"better a little pain now than a lot of pain later."
Sometimes I wish I lived on a not-so-angry planet.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Eliot
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Your fellow sessioneer sounds like a wise person.
I think "So what are your favorite tunes?" is a good way to deal with someone who asks to borrow a guitar and have a go. Often--here in the U.S. at least--the asker can't name a single tune. And usually, they take the gentle hint that playing tunes is not the same thing as "jamming on some blues."
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by mickray
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I've had some nice sessions with bass players, acoustic and electric.
It doesn't have to be painful
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Bren
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
As the old joke goes: It's not the rod, it's the fisherman.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by mickray
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Here in Montana, we don't see bass so much. Trout and whitefish, yes, and the occasional perch. But no bass.
Was it a wide-mouth or small-mouth?
Good to see you still getting in trouble, Eliot!
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Eliot maybe you thought the bass was a CRAPPY instrument..
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Saint
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I've had a whale of a time with a bass at my plaice. After herring the news, me mate pops in with his double roe and says "I'm not going to skate around the issue, eel have to go". Anyway, after a few tunas, he said "Rudd-y hell, he's BRILL
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Thats carp!
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Saint
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I know
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I was there that night. Something was off about the guy. He sat over near me and seemed really agitated. Then he went over and sat near you. I didn't hear the exchange of words, but it was pretty predictable that he would be a problem eventually.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
There mad people everwhere . so there was somthing FISHY about him..........
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Saint
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
He was probably in the CIA, checking out this group with strange, foreign, customs.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I think he was alcoholic, mentally ill or both.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Maybe he just wanted to do the conger before he got battered.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by strayaway
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Is the spelling of ceilidh / ceili as "Caley" yours or a phonetic representation of his pronunication?
Because I find the idea of someone who can't spell "ceilidh" having notions about what instruments "fit" in a session deliciously ironic. It's also a rather rude and supercillious thing to say to a stranger, which I suspect you would not have said if he were a flautist - which rather implies a somewhat eliteist attitude. I have to confess I find this rather sad and out of the spirit of things.
I know a chap who regularly takes his double bass to a session (he's also a rather skilled guitarist and B/C + C#/D player) who's frankly a great addition to the music. You might have done yourself out of an assest to your session that night. In retrospect, of course, this may be no bad thing.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Ack--the misspelling thing never occurred to me. I assumed it was "Caley's Pub" or whatever, that was the site of the session.
Although if the bassist did play in ceili bands for 45 years, he might have grinned and said, "Well, sure, I know a few tunes..." and proceeded to list them until Eliot surrendered.
I wonder if we will ever learn whether Eliot's session escaped a nasty situation with an unstable personality--or missed a great opportunity.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by mickray
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
To be fair he seemed like a fish out of water
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Saint
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Believe me he escaped. The guy was squirming and pacing and acting all agitated and angry way before he ever approached Eliot.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
>I wonder if we will ever learn whether Eliot's session escaped a nasty situation with an unstable personality--or missed a great opportunity.< I strongly suspect the former. I see such personalities all the time. I'm a court reporter, plus I live just outside an urban area where quite a few of them live and roam. I also used to be the office manager for a homeless placement service in San Francisco. And such a jarringly inappropriate response is in my experience a sure sign of a problem that's a lot bigger than anything you said or might have said. If I saw someone about to be deposed act like that just prior to a deposition I had to report, I would absolutely make sure that I wasn't alone with them at any time. Sounds to me like this guy heard something in his head rather than something you actually said. It's not uncommon in that population.
Maybe you just have to be around it as much as I have for this to make any sense. However, I really do think it worked out for the best.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
All said ... I did worry a bit afterwards that the chum would return with a weapon of some sort -- in this world one can never quite feel safe,
on the other foot...
if someone told me I couldn't play the flute unless I knew the tunes, and it was a classical concert, you know, Mozart or something, I'd surely storm out in a huff, and feel out of sorts that I was treated so badly, after all, I've been playing flute for, well, 35 years and never had anyone tell me I couldn't play flute in a classical concert!
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Eliot
Re: Angry bass player storms out...because the players forget the ethos of a session
Wow, some of you are really judgemental. From angry to mentally ill to an alcoholic....a musician cops some smartarse giving him a conditional yes to a visitor's question and all of a sudden he's the bad guy? *LOL*
I'm with Andy. The response was plain rude. And yes, it did turn out for the best: that the poor bloke was spared your appalling attitudes.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by UncleNobby'sSteamboat
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I'm with Eliot on this - that was a fair enough question.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I'd be interested in knowing whether it was an electric or acoustic bass. If acoustic, he might indeed have been a sensitive and responsible addition to the session. If electric, what kind of amp did he intend to use? 15W practice amp, or 120W of rumbling vibration? His intended gear would tell you a lot about whether he was going to wreck your session or not.
You could have conversationally sussed out his intentions, without being a smartass. True, sometimes you have to say no, but try to make it an informed decision.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by tradshark
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
If he'd come up to me at one of our sessions I would have said "no, f**k off, you weren't invited, and by the way how did you get in the house without a key?"
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Um... do you have many people at your session Dow?
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by tradshark
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Um... 5 or 6, depending on how many my friend invites for dinner. Why??
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I don't agree it was a fair enough question. It's unacceptably rude to talk to anyone you've never met before in such a manner, let alone a fellow musician asking to join in with you. It's arrogant, supercillious and frankly uncalled for. If the bloke had been playing in ceilidh bands for 45 years then there's a fair chance he's more experienced than you (there was no reply as to whether "Caley" is the name of a pub or a gratuitous misspelling).
Certainly around here it's common courtesy to give the visiting musicians at least 3 or 4 sets to demonstrate themselves "unsuitable", at which point people will have words. It's sad you took this decision based solely on his instrument. And I feel it says many negative things towards your attitude towards traditional music.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Kinda find myself agreeing with Andy on this one. You wouldn't be one of Dow's session group by any chance, would you Eliot?
Birds of a feather and all that...
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by tradshark
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I wonder whether he had 45 years of experience playing in 'ceilidh' bands or 'céilí' bands or 'céilidh' bands...
Experience playing in a band does *not* equal experience playing in sessions when it comes to questions of repertoire, etiquette, styles, arrangements, etc. If he'd had that many years of session experience, the reaction he got would not have come as a surprise to him.
And here's the thing. Why did he ask in the first place? You assume that just because he asked permission to join in, he was a nice bloke with manners. I interpreted it very differently. The fact that he had a tantrum shows that he was expecting to be welcomed with open arms from the outset. That shows he has a massive ego. He might just as well have sat down and started playing without even introducing himself. You should never simply "expect" to be allowed to join automatically like that - doesn't matter what instrument you're playing. The session is for the people who make it, and it's up to them what they want to do with their music. It's not up to an outsider to decide what's what. He was in the wrong in this instance by the sound of it, in that he came to the session expecting it to serve his needs and his needs only.
If I'd been in Eliot's position, I wouldn't have even posted this thread. Just forget about it - the guy was obviously a wenker.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by cian
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
tradshark, you really didn't read my post properly did you?
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Then you and I are going to have to disagree on this, Andy. Eliot is neither arrogant nor supercilious. If the guy had indeed been "playing in ceili [?] bands for 45 years", as he claimed, then he should bloody well know the tunes by now, so what was he afraid of ? I would also point out that you can play for 45 years and still be crap, so I'm not particularly impressed by that statement. If he'd gone and got his bass and fitted in, no problem. He chose not to - that was his choice.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Right, that's IT Kenny! You're a so-called SNOB! I'm never ever playing tunes with you ever again. ::Stomps off in huff and slams door::
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
No, I get it Dow. Private gathering of friends for dinner and a session. Some stranger shows up at the door uninvited looking to join in and you tell him to "f**k off, you weren't invited". Fair enough.
But would you take the same attitude if it were a pub session (as is the case in question, if I'm not mistaken), or would you be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt?
Maybe you would. Maybe I'm wronging you (and apologies if I am), but not knowing you personally, I can only go by what I see from your posts.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by tradshark
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Yes tradshark, I'm afraid you're right. I'm really, really, really horrible, and a total snob, sneering all the time and giving people evils, just how you imagine me to be. Anyone I ever meet at a session: the first words I say to them are "f**k off". Just in case anyone takes exception to that and tries to start on me, I always arm myself with a protractor, which I can throw with a skilful flick of the wrist so that it lodges in the victim's neck and kills them instantly.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Dow
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I don't see a mildly qualified "you're welcome to join us" as rude or unacceptable. The bloke chose to throw a wobbly at that point.
Play in the same ceilidh band for 45 years and you may be playing much the same half dozen tune sets all that time!
For anyone who wasn't there, the bare words as reported leave out so much of tone of voice, the actual situation etc, that it's hard to justify getting dogmatic about it. But hey, this is thesession.org
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Kills them instantly Dow? Surely they die a protracted death.
But back on topic - I find it hard to understand how anybody (either the angry bass player, or his defenders on this thread) can possibly understand Eliot's word to the Angry Bass Player as either questioning his ability or making him unwelcome.
"If you know the tunes you're welcome to join us"
Where's the rudeness or unwelcoming in that?
And as for the carp about being able or unable to spell ceilidh - that's just laughable.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by showaddydadito
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Eliot, I am afraid that you have become the latest person to start us down a frustrating road. Might I suggest that discussions of an event that almost none of us witnessed, where the only evidence we have are little snippets of easy to misinterpret text, are rather meaningless efforts. We all dance around, presenting our preconcieved notions and predjudices, and inevitably someone takes something the wrong way, and since there are few facts to keep the discussion on track, everything deteriorates into bickering.
Reading a written description of an event and trying to draw conclusions from it is like trying to learn The Music entirely from sheet music.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I finished playing a session in Cork last summer, only to have three american guys come up and thank me for the music, no problem there, always glad that somebody enjoyed it, makes all the hard work that you put into it worthwhile. However one of them said that we reminded him of Miles Davis or John Coltrane! When asked how he had reached this conclusion, it turns out that he though that we were improvising the whole thing, and I'm not talking about ornamentation here, he genuinely thought that we were making it all up as we went along!!! I kid you not...
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by eoinbouzouki
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
You're dead right Al, but sometimes bickering is fun
Dow, I wonder are the feds watching you for being in possession of Weapons of Maths Instruction?
As Al says, when all is said and done, we weren't there, so we're not really in a position to judge either side.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by tradshark
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Well, here are some facts for you:
The man was clearly mentally, alcoholic or both when I saw him sitting next to me in the audience. He was fidgiting, rocking back and forth, kept getting up and sitting back down again, sighing and making noises under his breath. He looked agitated and angry. I think he was even wearing a jacket and it was about 85 degrees F inside the bar.
I don't believe for a minute he had a bass outside in his car. I don't think he even had a car out there.
The place where the session is held is nearby to many homeless shelters and rehab transition houses and things like that. I think it's almost across the street from a soup kitchen.
I think he heard the music and like many of us wanted to be part of it. But being an unstable individual, which you could sense immediately, the natural reaction to his request was to put him off long enough to verify if he really was as unstable as he appeared. And he was.
So what would you all do if a mentally ill homeless alcoholic person caused a scene at your session?
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by sbhikes
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
sbhikes,
I, speaking only for myself, would politely fend off anyone who was very likely to impose on the rights of the other
sessioneers. While charity is a good thing, it should begin at home. No one should be welcome to spoil things for everyone else in any rational community. The rights of the many vs. the needs of the individual? You already have my vote on that.
Al,
I tend to agree with tradshark that the "bickering" is fun for many who post here. But do you not enjoy speculating about human behaviour, and bouncing around a few "What if...?"s....? It seems to me you do, having taken the trouble to read this far into this thread.
I do agree with your assertion that this type of discussion is a pursuit that is, finally, fruitless. But it is entertaining and stimulating. And it can make us think (some of us) about the way we communicate and get along with our fellows.
Personnally, I also can do without any sniping and serious bickering, but even there I try to just cull it from the mix and focus on the subject. As it was recently rather strongly pointed out to me here at thesession, many of the posters have known each other a long time. I do not always know what they are really talking about amongst themselves, or how appropriate or inappropriate they are amongst themselves.
It may be a "family" matter, and if so, well --- have you ever stepped in between two brothers having a row?
And Eliot,
it is an angry planet, but do not let it get you down. The sun does come shining through sometimes. It just sounds like you had a bad experience, and that is what can happen with humans. You cannot get along with everyone.
Anyway, blah blah blah -- but it was worth reading so many plays on "bass' -- hooked me right away.
My two cents.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Rook
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I suppose there was an implication in the original post that this guy had an anger problem. We weren't to know that though until a fuller description was offered.
There was also an implication of consensus that a bass of any sort has no place at a session and , along with andy@newcastle I think , I'd say that this isn't necessarily true at all.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Bren
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
sbhikes, Hope I didn't offend you, I didn't mean to suggest that you folks did not do the right thing in your situation (upon further expaination, it sounds like you did). I am merely pointing out that this type of discussion can often be frustrating and divisive in our little viritual community, since no matter how well the facts are laid out in writing, it is difficult to assess what happened when we weren't there.
Rook, Good comments, and I grew up with four brothers, so I know exactly what you mean about getting in the midst of an argument between them (or being one of the arguers)!!!
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Here is my take -- I was rude, no doubt. I am willing to accept that and continue with the conversation.
It gets back to the "backer" discussion - I have played with bass players before who joined our band at the Contra dances without ever practicing with us, but the tunes were "easy."
The sign on the wall of a rather famous session reads (session rules):
1) If you don't know the tune, don't play it
2) At most one bohdran
3) No whining
Being rude is not new to our community. But this community does not have a corner on such behavior which is the sadness I feel about life in general right now.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Eliot
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Logically ...
On being told he could play if he knew the tunes, he took this as meaning he was being told not to play. Therefore he didn't know *any* tunes, since without knowing what the tunes were, he knew he didn't know them.
If he had been playing ceilidhs, (rather than in a bar called 'Caley's') for 45 years, then he had obviously succeeded in doing this without ever learning any tunes at all.
So what was he planning to play? Either he was an all-purpose bass noodler, or he was trouble.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by c.g.
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Here I thought this subject line of this thread was a joke set-up:
"A funny thing happened to me on my way to work the other day... "
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by pbassnote
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Ok........ who would take this phrase as an offensive comment?
"If you know the tunes, you're welcome to join us."
not me
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Joze
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Thanks f
I live in a world (my own little world) where I really don't know anymore what is offensive and what is not. And, for some reason, I care.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Eliot
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
What I find quite inexplicable is what on earth makes the story as portrayed at the top "man walks into bar, asks if he could join you on bass, gets a reply that lacks in social grace and takes umbridge" funnier, more interesting or better than "lunatic, who couldn't prevent himself from dancing a improvised quickstep, attempts to join in with session using imaginary bass, currently in an entirely ficticious car outside"
Also, why is it that no one finds the qualification of the reply rude, purely in a social sense? To analogise it, if someone offered an opening conversational gambit at a function would you reply "I'm only prepared to continue this conversation if you have something interesting to say or can otherwise be of use to me?" Most people, I hope, would give the subject a couple of minutes to prove interesting and politely disengage if proved not. Maybe people had a diffent upbringing to me.
Enough. Although I'd dearly love to know exactly when it was that this sort of thing sufficiently annoyed me as to post on internet messageboards about it.....
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I guess it was the fear of *not* being able to politely disengage after a couple of minutes, having read the later post.
Take a chill pill andy.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Bren
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
It's all speculation and blether, hot air from below.
We don't know what manner the guy had about him.
We don't know in what manner the reply was given.
We don't know exactly how accurately the incident was reported.
We have the words of one side of the incident only.
We can imagine the scene in any number of different lights. It signifies nothing.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
It was posted on here, so it's up for discussion as it stands.
Just from the first post, I think various ones of us could imagine ourselves on either side of the incident.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Bren
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I still think "f**k off" woulda been the way to go. I mean, evidently he didn't even play an instrument, and was therefore of no use to you whatsoever, and even if he was telling the truth and he did play an instrument, it was only a bass, so he was therefore of no use to you whatsoever. The only use he might have been was as someone to buy in rounds of drinks, but he doesn't even sound like the sort of person who'd be happy to do that...
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Dow
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
If you really took exception to his tantrum you could have made things a bit more interesting by finding the biggest hardest bloke in the pub, and going up to him and saying "see that man over there? He said your wife's an ugly slut" and then sitting back down to watch the fun
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Dow
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Andy, why was it rude to say he could join in if he knew the tunes? This wasn't a social conversation, it was a session.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by c.g.
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Isn't a session a form of social conversation ?
Not to be confused with the words in between, which are subject to so many forms of interpretation.
As a further comment....the place of worship I regularly attend is just round the corner from a mental institution. We occasionaly have visitors from this other place. Some, although obviously disturbed, find some comfort, whilst others seem more intent on creating a disturbance.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
and visa versa (on every count) I'd imagine?
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by pavlf
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
you can't have a bass in a pub after a while it will get smelly the same as any fish........
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Saint
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Is it easy to go up and down the SCALES on a bass
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Saint
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Ba-ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-ba-bah
Ba-ba-bah-ba-bah, ba-ba-ba-ba-bah-boom ...
Mr. Bass Man, you've got that certain somethin'
Mr. Bass Man, you set that music thumpin'
To you it's easy when you go 1-2-3
Ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-bah
You mean ba-bah-ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-bah
Yeah! Mr. Bass Man, you're on all the songs
With the bip-bip-boom-boom
And the dit-dit-bom-bom-bom
Hey Mr. Bass Man, you're the hidden King of Rock 'n' Roll
Ba-ba-ba-bah, No-no, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-bah ...
Oh, it don't mean a thing when the lead is singin'
Or when he goes Hi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yah
Hey Mr. Bass Man, I'm askin' just one thing
Will you teach me, mmm, yeah, the way you sing
'Cause Mr. Bass Man, I wanna be a bass man too
Ba-ba-ba-bah
Try this, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-boom
Oh Mr Bass Man, I really think I'm winnin'
With the bip-bip-boom-boom
And the dit-dit, dit-dit-da-dah
Hey Mr. Bass Man, now I'm a bass man too
Ba-ba-ba-bah
That's it, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-boom
Ba-ba-boom-boom ...
Now you
Ba-ba-boom-boom ...
With me
Ba-ba-boom-boom ...
Oh, it don't mean a thing when the lead is singin'
Or when he goes "Hi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yah"
Hey Mr. Bass Man, I'm askin' just one thing
Will you teach me, mmm, yeah, the way you sing
'Cause Mr. Bass Man, I wanna be a bass man too
Ba-ba-ba-bah
Try this, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-boom
Oh Mr Bass Man, I really think I'm winning
With the bip-bip-boom-boom and the dit-dit-bom-bom-bom
Oh Mr. Bass Man, now I'm a bass man too
Ba-ba-ba-bah
That's it, ba-ba-bah, ba-ba-bah-bah-boom
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
If you were a good musician and did know the tunes, then "you can join in if you know the tunes" from strangers - at a *public house* , not a private house, would sound patronising and snotty. No question about it, no matter how nicely meant.
If the guy was an obvious nutter and likely session-wrecker, then any way of getting rid of him would be good enough I suppose.
I've been on both sides where someone was insistent on joining in and made such a noise that no one else could play, and also been treated to the "you're obviously not *one of us*, go away" attitude when I was a stranger. It's not very pleasant, but as a stranger, one is sensitive to the reactions of the group one is seeking to join, and anything less than overt friendliness (which is by far the norm in pub sessions) comes across as territorial and cliquey.
This is not discussing the first post , or what actually happened there, so much ,as the hypothetical questions arising from the post as it was written, and ensuing reactions.
I think it's pretty clear from Eliot's subsequent posts that this guy was most likely a wrecker.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Bren
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Wow ...
Next time I'll give more detail!
Interesting -- enlightening -- enjoyable -- fun, and as mentioned above -- sad.
Always something to learn. Thanks for the responses.
--Eliot
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by Eliot
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I didn't think the response "if you know the tunes, you're welcome to join us" was out of line in the slightest.
I remember being 19 years old and invited to a dixieland jam. I had a tenor banjo (I tuned it like the top 4 strings of a guitar in those days, to make life simpler). Everyone in the venue was over 60 except me.
The bandleader glowered at me from behind the piano and said "Kid, do you know old jazz?"
I said "sure." I was fresh out of the orchestra pit for an old broadway show called "The Boyfriend" and though I didn't know the tunes by name, I knew the conventions and basic bread-and-butter changes ok.
He obviously didn't trust me and said "Do me a favor, kid. If you don't know it, don't play it!"
He was right. And I didn't.
I had no problem with him whatsoever.
What I did do was lay out each tune the first time through, pick up the changes, and kick in the second. Worked just fine. If I needed a hint or a heads-up, the bass player would whisper it to me before the tune.
But "If you don't know it, don't play it" is fantastic session advice.
Mike E., a piper in San Diego I enjoy playing with when I get to, has a graceful way of discouraging clueless guitar players prior to them sitting in his sessions. Or at least a way of sussing them out first. He should maybe post a thread on how he does that.
# Posted on July 28th 2007 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
JW, given that we both know Mike E, you and I must know each other too, especially if you are so-cal, OC, Finn.
Say "hey" from me to your new friend Tom W. (who is our old friend up here).
--Eliot
# Posted on July 29th 2007 by Eliot
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
i've been on the receiving end of unfriendly responses when requesting to sit in on sessions, and your response doesn't seem unfriendly to me. Also, as a full time musician, i've come to trust my judgement on people asking to join in , or sing a song etc. My initial response to them has always been right.If they seemed ok, they were. If they had a dodgy vibe about them, they were.If it's your session, it's your choice who can sit in.
To me the issue isn't really about whether you let people sit in or not, it's about friendliness..or maybe even more basic than that-common courtesy. I've been told both yes and no in sessions, and some of the no's were more polite than the yes's! A "sorry, but we tend to just play this evening as the 4 of us" or suchlike is actually more welcome to a newcomer than a "well i guess we can't stop you, can we?".I was once given permission to join in by "well, you won't put ME off!" Anyone new to an area or a pub knows it can be nervewracking to walk up to a big group off musicians round a table who obviously all know each other and ask to join in. So come on guys lets all just be polite and give the newbie credit for having the balls to come over and ask!
# Posted on July 29th 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Man was that guy lucky to get out.
How sad. So, first, you are all experts in figuring out mental states and conditions of people you've never met before, and able to understand their feelings and motivations. You must be to say things like "The guy was squirming and pacing and acting all agitated and angry way before he ever approached Eliot." Couldn't possible be angst over how he figured he'd be rejected by some trad snobs, eh?
And asking if he knew the tunes is worthless anyway. If you are a melody player, you may have different variations of the tunes, and if you are a backing player how could you ever know that your choice of chords is going to be the exact same as the rest? There are many ways to back the same tune, you know... And a good backing player will do amazingly well and just fitting in.
I've had it with purist snobs holding on to their "officially sanctioned" instruments knowing that God put them in the session Himself and others have to just suffer in the cold outside or risk the brimstone of their wrath if they dare try to join.
# Posted on July 29th 2007 by N9YTY
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
So what do you propose to do ?
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Play nicer? Adopt an "innocent till proven guilty" approach to session-wreckers, if they cause trouble politiely inform them of the norms you expect if your session. If they aren't prepared to conform to them, politely but firmly insist they leave. A quiet word with your landlord can help ease the wheels if the bloke then becomes unpleasant and needs ejecting. It wasn't even as if he posed a threat to your instruments, seeing as he asked to fetch his own in.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this would have been an entirely different story if he'd asked to join you with a set of pipes, fiddle, flute etc; you would assume that the player of a melody instrument would know the tunes. Largely based upon the fact that Eliot felt that simply letting a bassist join you would cause "...a lot of pain later" (or at the very least, didn't oppose the view & so held it by default) then, as such, it's not unlikely to suggest this would have been projected in the manner of his reply.
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Hmmm .. I've always seen it as a privelige to play with other musicians. Conditions will be there no matter what dysfunctional democratic fantasies one endulges.
Also - In joining in cold - one must be sensitive to the rapport that has been established. For instance - would you but-in to an earnest conversation between nuclear physicists? perhapse your PHD would get you the ticket, but your drumsticks might earn a cold-shoulder.
Let's assume the man really did know the tunes - I can imagine him listening to the music and thinking "I'd love to play along with this!" but feeling like an outsider has an internal conflict - working up the courage to ask to join-in. That would explain the agitation. Now if this bloke had a bit of a confidence problem, then his pesimism might be expecting the rejection - at which point even the politest response might be taken as a rejection. This kind of thing is common.
It all seems like stock fare - the fish defeated himself before he even started.
Eliot, it seems, was perplexed by this enought to post. I think it's important to get resolution on such things - this is how we learn about ourselves. I'd say the conflict between hospitality and the need to keep the session in full swing will make the man sensitive to gross negatives - but the answer is simple: You are responsible for the session, the door you open is your door - it's up to the other to work out if he can fit through.
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by Mozle
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Not with a bass, it seems
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by Bren
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Okay, so I was perhaps a bit harsh above myself. Sorry.
One does have to wonder, though, about the dynamics of why you have a session in a public house in the first place if you want to treat the circle as though it were a close-knit group of friends... Why not only play at your private house and not have the bother of deflecting those who want to spoil your fun?
If it's a performance issue, then find someone who will book you as a performance and there is no confusion. While I agree with and understand the "not just anything goes" with walking up to and joining in a session, I would think that giving someone the chance would be preferred to such negative "prove yourself first" approaches.
I say that after having seen bluegrass players invade a nice session and destroy it, but in that particular case it was perhaps the session on it's way out anyway and this was just the little nudge it needed to realize it wasn't standing firmly anyway.
But, really, and maybe a separate thread, why should a session be in a public house and then be so closed to 'outsiders' joining in?
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by N9YTY
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Generally, if someone is polite enough to ask if they can sit in, we invite them to. We prefer straightforward traditional instruments and musicianship, but that doesn't mean we shut out all others. We've had people sit in with cello, electronic keyboard, Johnny Cash songs, an erhu, even Highland pipes once (they were just too loud). But none of these lasted long, mostly because the player recognized they weren't really adding to the music.
When someone with an instrument not typically found in Irish sessions asks to sit in, I usually say something along the lines of: "Well, slide trombone isn't an instrument we usually see at an Irish session. We're playing tunes from memory within a fairly specific traditional body of music. But you're welcome to give it a try."
This gives fair warning that we're not just jamming--improvising against a chord progression. And it also gives them enough information to maybe frame a question or two about how our session works.
At worst, I've had to politley ask the person to stop after a set or two, most often because their instrument is just too loud for the rest of us to hear anything.
At best, we've been treated to some wonderful music by excellent musicians. Sometimes they fit in. More often they give us a "party piece" or two during a lull in the sets, enjoyed by all.
But session life in a bigger city might beg for a more guarded response. I don't think Eliot's approach was out of line. Not knowing much about that actual situation (so this could be way off base), I could imagine a slightly softer approach: Ask him what sort of bass it is--upright, acoustic guitar, or electric. Depending on the answer, explain the concerns about volume. By this point, if you're still having a conversation, try to suss out what his experience with Irish trad music is, if any. If little to none, perhaps suggest that he sit and listen for a spell, and explain the difference between a session and a jam, and the concept of playing in unison, with attention on the many nuances, which becomes harder to do if one instrument fills in all the space with a loud or constant sound.
Given the information Eliot has posted, I don't understand why the gent was agnered by Eliot's response. Unless he thought it was just an improv jam.
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Thanks, guys, you've just postponed my session debut by a couple of years.
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by shelagh
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Corwumph. (I've always wanted to say that - anyone who read "Jennings" will know why).
Cello, not traditional??? That's a bit bloody misinformed. Actually quite common in Scots dance bands 150 years ago - they would 'vamp' a bass line (JSS started his musical career doing this).
Piano is also traditional in dance style playing and still is an integral part of the Cape Breton style (and electric keyboard is simply the portable modern version of this).
Is the reason they weren't contributing because you'd already decide they didn't fit, so weren't prepared to let them?
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Andy, why jump to such nasty conclusions? And here you were just berating Eliot for his manners....
I play Irish music in a pub session, not in a 150 yearold Scots dance band. Cello is not a common instrument in any of the Irish sessions I've ever nbeen to. Are you seriously questioning that?
We welcomed the cello players (two different people)--but they really weren't familiar with the jigs and reels. One guy did learn a few tunes and did a nice job of them on cello. They also both played drones that fit what the rest of us were playing. I thought it was a lot of fun and invited them both back, but they had other priorities (one is now in seminary, the other finishing his music degree out of town).
As for the piano--again, we play mostly Irish music in an Irish session style, not Cape Breton. We've enjoyed various forms of piano over the years, including having Felix Dolan sit in with us on a concert grand once--that was a most memorable evening! Again, the piano player had other priorities--she mainly plays mandolin and accordion in a string band, so she shows up at our session only once in a blue moon. We always offer her a good seat and enjoy her music.
I realize that you might have a chip on your shoulder about Eliot's treatment of the bass player because you're a bass player yourself. But if you take the chip down you might see that I was actually posting in support of welcoming people to sessions, regardless of what their instrument is.
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Well, yes, clearly I'm incredibly biased. That I'm a bassist is in my bio, and I would expect anyone responding to anything I wrote to either be aware of that, or not mind, and take my opinions with a pinch of salt. And to be honest, I don't care as much as I might seem - I'm partly playing devil's advocate to keep a debate, which has some interesting themes in it, going.
Eliot has a point, no one really feels at ease either talking to or playing with a stranger, for reasons of both insecurity and uncertainty. But I'd rather people here admit this then suggest the chap was unsuitable for the session for other reasons. And, as you said, if someone with something a bit different turns up they're likely to get a reply that questions their suitability. Truthfully, you're more likely to suffer trouble from someone toting a guitar or a bodhran, or even someone with a fiddle or whistle with a bad attitude.
I wasn't jumping to a conclusion (I did phrase it as a question, but even so apologies if this was construed as an insult, it did tread a rather thin line), and the aim of the question was to draw out a thoughtful reply. Which you more than obliged me with. I actually do go to a session where there's is occasionally a cellist, however I do accept this is a rarity. Non-traditional, however, I won't accept without qualification. Feel free to disagree, your tradition may be exlusively Irish, mine (not having been brought up in a traditionally minded community, or really even family) is more a mongrel breed of Scots, Northumbrian, Irish and English, with some Scandinavian stuff thrown in as well - so to me the cello is more traditional than the guitar, however it's entirely reasonable that to you it isn't.
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
i want to point out again that the words "if..you're welcome to join us" can't be construed as rude. As a working musician (not in ITM) from experience I can say the problem isn't eager beginners, it's drunk or genuinely unstable people, and in those situations the LAST thing you want to do is let them in. Examples:
A guy I know in the U.K. had his brand new Lowden guitar (2500 sterling) turned to matchwood by a drunk.
I remember a (singing) gig I did in a bar in Dingle, we had got the signal from the landlord for 2 more songs, which we announced. Some guy came in the door with a big hand drum and asked quite boisterously if he could play. (i found out later that this guy is a member of Afro Celt Sound System). I said that we were nearly finished but he was welcome. We did 1 song and started our last (the usual singalong we always did with this crowd). The drummer guy started to play independently as loudly as possible, oblivious to both us and the crowd. So i stopped the song and told him we didn't have time for his solo as we'd been give the signal. He stood up, called me a bad word, kicked the table with our speaker on sending 2 full pint glasses smashing on the floor and stormed out shouting.
My point is, the guy was either psychotic or (I suspect ) drugged up to his sad hippy-dippy-hand-drumming-get-yourself-a-real-instrument-you-loser eyeballs. The mistake I made in this situation was to let him sit down. To those beginners nervous to ask for permission to join in I can only say, yes there ARE rude jerks out there in sessions, but there may also be a genuine concern about how your inclusion could affect both atmosphere and music, because there are jerks wanting to join in too!
ok i gotta get back to the real world now god help me!
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
"drugged up to his sad hippy-dippy-hand-drumming-get-yourself-a-real-instrument-you-loser eyeballs"
ROTFL or whatever you type when something is just hilarious!!!
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
thanks, i try.. ;-0
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Shelagh, the only reason this thread should scare you off sessions is if you have no manners. In which case, people at sessions will be glad you're not darkening their door anytime soon.
But I suspect you **do** have manners. All you have to do to be welcome at a session is use them. Listen first to see if the session is one you can contribute to. Then politley ask if you can join in. You'll soon enjoy a new circle of friends.
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Bottom line: A session is not somewhere you go so other people can hear you play music. A session is an opportunity to play music with other people, listening to them.
If you're hell-bent on being the center of attention, join a band.
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
If people will take their best instrument to a pub session then really, what to expect? (Quite aside from the fact that I don't really like Lowdens, the loss of a decent instrument is a sad thing - although on the bright side they're relatively easily replaced - irreperable damage to a 1850s violin is far worse)
I'd like to mention in passing that I do regard stopping as a bit unprofessional - however I can't comment on how bad it was.
The point is this - if you view a session as analogous to a conversation, then qualifying the "yes, join us" is a bit rude, unless the person in question is a potential threat to an instrument. If you see it as a bit of a performance then, I respectfully reserve your right to disagree.
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Well, yes, I can assure you that I do have good manners - having been impeccably brought up. But I'm also sometimes psychotic, smell of smoke, and I have been known to tap my feet too loudly. Sometimes I even clap after a rousing set by the local sessioneers. (you see I didn't realise you were all doing it for yourselves, not for us onlookers - I now realise this is not the done thing).. My big question is: why don't you all go and play in your own houses and then we non-session members won't get confused by the required etiquette. We can always play the jukebox.
Still love the music, though.
# Posted on July 31st 2007 by shelagh
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
> ...Truthfully, you're more likely to suffer trouble from someone toting a guitar or a bodhran, or even someone with a fiddle or whistle with a bad attitude...
A good bass player - without knowing all the exact notes in the tunes - could add a great deal to any type of music, including Irish TM without anyone even really noticing that the bass is there.
There is a Sharon Shannon recording in youtube, Mouth of the Tobique, wouldn't sound as good without the bass, I'm sure.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Risto
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
trust me, andy@newcastle, it was bad. Let me reiterate, he interrupted US, we had already started to play a song and he set off on his own conflicting rhythm as loud as possible over the top, oblivious to the music, the mood of the room or of any basic courtesy. At that moment the professional thing was to stop him from disrupting what was before then a very cosy and friendly little gig. You should have seen the looks on the faces of the crowd and the landlord who, at the end of the day, was our employer for that 3 hrs.Plus lets be frank, it was obvious by this point that the guy was just a knob!
The Lowden had a drunks foot put through it a wedding gig, not a session. I've never been to a session quite that rowdy! (so far)
also, i have to say, it seems pretty clear you are not on a professional musician's salary if you think a 2500 sterling instrument is easily replaced!!!
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I'm a music student. The insurance on my guitar covers me against accidental damage, criminal damage, theft, burglary, fire, acts of god (I like to think that God wouldn't trash my instrument!), civil disobediance, war (I think) and a medly of other things (its been a while since I read the documents but I'm fairly sure I'm not covered against animal stampedes, unless it was started maliciously). It's with about a £200 excess, which is a bit crap, however it allows me to replace my guitar with something else if I decide that the resultant wait from using the bloke who built mine would affect my studies.
On those ground, a £2500 guitar, if insured up to the hilt (which any professional's main instrument should be) is easily replaced, particularly as Lowdens are relatively easy to obtain. And a damn sight easier than replacing a 150 year old fiddle.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
I may be wrong, but I think you need to look at your insurance cover more closely, andy. I'm sure acts of "civil disobedience" and "war" are usually exclusions, at least in most policies I've seen.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Kenny
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Had another look - I actually rang my insurance company to iron out the finer points of it and had a rather fun chat with one of their more bored legal people (2pm on a Wednesday afternoon evidently sees insurers feeling rather flippant). Upshot - if my guitar and I go into a warzone, the guitar gets caught in some sort of crossfire and sustains damage the insurance doesn't stand. If the guitar is removed from my posession by someone representing one of the factions then a criminal act is seen to have occurred in the eyes of the British legal system and I can claim. In terms of civil disobediance it's much the same; if it's removed by force I can claim, if there's looting in the offing then it's my loss.
Of course, seeing as I don't leave the country with my guitar, if any of these things happen there's a fair chance that getting a claim in will be the least of my concerns.....
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Andy V
So actually, you're right. I'm not covered against war or civil disobedience, just any criminal acts that might occur because of them.
# Posted on August 1st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
oh yeh insurance, i've heard of that before. my dad has it, i think!
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
btw actually ringing your insurance company..OUTSTANDING commitment to this thread!
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
"i rang my company 2pm on a Wednesday"..
ahh..(drops into nostalgic reverie on student life)
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
In my defence, I don't start work 'till 3! And it's the middle of summer.
Seriously though, get instruments insured! Mine's through the same people my dad sorts out his house insurance with, but if you're in the MU there's some sort of discount if you do it through them.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
actually i own a lowden, but only use it for 'respectable' solo gigs, recitals, wedding ceremony perfomances etc. (some cool photos of it on my wsite www.hakanozel.com). For pub gigs, sessions etc i've i really cool cheap Westfield that retails about 350 quid and i got for 100 from Cash Converters! god bless em! thats one other approach to the insurance issue.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Oddly, the Westfield appears to be the guitar you have in the photo for your website. Highly curious! Then again, I did hear a rather amusing story about a jazzer I know who wanted to have his promo pictures taken with his favourite Selmer-Maccaferi copy and spent a fair bit of time polishing it the night before. Result - a guitar that was reflecting so much of the indirect flashes he had to be shot using someone elses rather battered looking ES-335.
# Posted on August 2nd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
yeh ur right about the photos..thats what comes from living in 2 countries at once! My Lowden is in the UK, that photo was taken here in Prague.I travel back and forth quite a bit-most UK gigs are more fancy wedding type things, and here in Prague it's bashing out The Proclaimers for stag parties! theres a couple of photos on the site from a wedding in the UK with my Lowden
but thanks for reminding me..everytime i see that photo it bugs me it's the cheap guitar..
btw why don't you like Lowdens? the only issue i have is im quite short and they are pretty big, otherwise i love them.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
Largely the shape of the neck. It just doesn't sit quite right in my hand - and the way it spreads my fingers out always makes it seem like a fingerpicker's guitar than a flatpicker's guitar. But then I'm used to guitars with very flat neck profiles. I also find the standard string spacing a little more than I get get my pick around for quick string crossing. That said, it's probably also that I'm so used to my own guitar which has got more than a few perculiarities of its own than whenever I get offered someone elses it feels wierd to me.
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by Andy V
Re: Angry bass player storms out...
i think ur right if i remember they even used to say something on their original website about it being the ultimate fingerpicking guitar or somesuch..for flatpicking the cheap westfield is easier. and it's pretty impossible to play 'thumb over the top' chords on the Lowden. (unless ur Pierre Bensusan, i've watched him do it seemingly effortlessly).
# Posted on August 3rd 2007 by hakanozel