Hello all – long time lurker, first time contributor here. Over the past year I have enjoyed reading numerous rants regarding the various fringe elements and social misfits who occasionally attend our sessions. You know who I mean – the backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and wankers who, although only wishing to be part of the musical experience – tend to ruin it for others due to their unfortunate ignorance. And yet every time I read one of these rants, I can’t help but remember that I too was once a clueless newbie and committed numerous infractions and faux pas that should have rightfully banished me forever to the Isle of Misfit Toys. I attended my first session in 1993. Among my many heinous transgressions was the fact that I was a compulsive noodler. I noodled so often I could have easily opened my own Italian restaurant by the third set of reels. Mind you I wasn’t toting some delicate little mandolin or a whistle off in a snug somewhere – I was clattering along with nearly every tune on a bloody banjo! That alone would have gotten me physically ejected from most sessions. Yet by some miracle, I was fortunate to meet some of the most quality people it has been my pleasure to have ever known. Rather than curse my darkness, they lit a beacon and helped me overcome my arrogance and ignorance. First it was a fiddle player named John from Aberdeen Scotland. Then a fiddle player named Sheila from Brooklyn NY. Then a mandolin player named Corey from Canada. Over the years each one of them pulled me aside and not only taught me loads of tunes, but taught me how to become a functional member of the session community. Like Saint Patrick and the evangelists of old, they led me to a state of grace rather than let me wallow in ignorance. So my question to you all is who saved you? Who have you saved? Are you the type of person who can politely lead a newbie to understanding or are you a soul crusher who casts out the unclean before they have a chance to be saved? It seems to me if we want our local ITM music scenes to remain healthy and growing – we must be willing to help others.
Would you believe Barry Foy, who literally wrote the book on session etiquette? And many other kind people, of course, including an elderly man who doesn't play an instrument--in fact, he's deaf as a post--but who knows a lot about the value of a positive, constructive attitude. When I tell people that Irish traditional music has made me a better person, I'm not kidding.
Not to say that I don't enjoy the occasional pint, as well. ;>}
I am a lost soul still waiting for salvation, but I've been shown a lot of things by a lot of people over the years.
I should credit guitarist Dave J for dragging me into the company of some very fine and renowned musicians in the early 80s but I was so overwhelmed I gave up for about ten years! At least that gave me a sense of what a good session could be like.
Well, it is blatantly obviousJusa Nutter, that you are not saved. Having claimed that you were saved by good quality people from wallowing in ignorance, and claiming that we must be willing to help others, you then display your total ignorance by writing "You know who I mean – the backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and tossers who, although only wishing to be part of the musical experience – tend to ruin it for others due to their unfortunate ignorance" So much for helping others.
There are quite a few groups in that list, including one which probably contains yourself. But you simply insult them all, in the mistaken belief that backers do not belong in a session.
I assume you are not from Ireland? You must live in a country with little freedom, dominated by rules.
I've nev er been saved, boo hoo, it's why I kick mesel' in the @rse when I dance...will they babtize me with guiness and raise me up to sit with the elect?
Blisster, sweetie. Take a deep breath and read the next line of Nutter's post. He was lost, but has found his way. He embraced his tosserdom and has repented his prideful ways. And probably is a lot more fun to play tunes with. Enlightenment is a relative thing, since we all wander through our lives in various stages of cluelessness. Eh?
Mr Bliss - you misunderstand - I was mearly quoting the phrases that others had put in their previous posts regarding "ruining" sessions. - The session I regularly attend has some of the finest guitar and bodhran players one could ever hope for. In fact bodhran players in our town respectfully play one at a time as to not interfere with others!
Seems like the only "rule" (more of a common courtesy, really) here--as at sessions--is to ask yourself before jumping in whether your participation will contribute to or detract from the goings on. Will your input add to the craic or spoil it for others?
"backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and tossers"
These sort of insults come up all the time.
Couldn't we condense it a bit for future use?
What about "bakongas, strumpers and shankers" ?
Mr Bliss - if you wish to slam my opinions, my nationality, and even my instrument of choice - fair play to you. But to randomly lump me in with Dick Cheney? - Ouch - That's a bit low even for the yellow board innit?
Seems like the only "rule" (more of a common courtesy, really) here--as at sessions--is to ask yourself before jumping in whether your participation will contribute to or detract from the goings on. Will your input add to the craic or spoil it for others?
Heh, Bliss, maybe you took it that way out of guilt for jumping down poor Jusa Nutter's throat.
It's not deep, but no less relevant. In the line of "Ask not what your session can do for you, but what you can do for your session," as has been repeated on this board over the years. Applies equally well for contributing to the threads here.
Nothing to do with the subject. I'm just going to quote a line from the original post to see if the automatic rude-word filter has been changed, or if something mysterious is going on:
"the backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and tossers who, although only wishing to be"
No, it's mysterious. Why is the word w.a.n.k.e.r in the original post there, but the first four letters automatically changed to "toss" in other posts?
I'm probly paranoid though I read an implied "them and us" thing in the question, like being "connected" where i come from, or a "made man" in the mafia. I fall out with myself over playing music but I'd listen to any of you play. "the backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and tossers", I'm sure I'm one of them to someone else. I'd stand in the line with me pike raised with anyone who wants to play a tune. I'm glad for you if you are finding good things in what you are chasing, I just hate the whole inclusive/ excluisive thing.
Stevecomputer - I'm not sure how this got so twisted about, but my only point was that I began my exploration into session life by making every common social mistake one could make - mistakes that are regularly pointed out within this forum, and sometimes with a great deal of venom. I then wanted to pay tribute to some fine musicians who steered me the right way, and encourage others to do the same at their locals should the opportunity present itself with an eager beginner.
Boojum, all it goes to show is that Homer still nods occasionally
And who saved me? I think the answer lies in the adage that it takes two people to make a child, but it takes the whole village to turn that child into an adult.
I have to say, I've been much encouraged by the people I've met who've encouraged me in the right direction along the years, including two very excellent mando players, some fine fiddlers, and one or two human-esque bodhran players.
One story I'll always remember. I was just beginning on the tenor banjo, and I brought it out to the local. I was encouraged to play a tune, and I did so with great embarassment. I stammered through Bag of Spuds, and to my horror nobody else knew it.
To my delight, however, the next week I showed up, and another banjo player asked me to play Bag of Spuds, and then joined right in. He'd learned it so he could play it with me. THAT made me want to play!
Hm, it was a number of people, most of them sour, impatient old gits, who would sit for a couple of tunes just frowning, and then burst in a cascade of insults. Thankfully, between the insults, a real pearls of wisdom were passed, which I duly collected.
Some time ago, I was a cheerful, open, skill-less and tactless backer, who would come into a session and ruin the experience for other by playing too loud and out of rhythm, as I was in love with the sound of my own instrument (did that make me a "tosser"?)
After several enlightening meetings and sessions like that, I became a tactful, skilled backer, surly and impatient, hating the sound of guitar for more than a couple of sets, refusing to play despite the pleas of my session friends, shunning other backers and sessions of more than four players, and bursting into cascades of insults should someone tactless, skill-less and cheerful try and join in to spoil my experience.
I have been helped along the way by a few people but one always has to be cautious not to wear their patience thin! To know when to sit back and just listen. We too had a fiddle player, John who ssdly passed away and he could be cantankerous at times but I always was appreciative of the fact that he would always make an effort to join in if he half knew the tune I was starting at all. He'd supply a tune name whereas others might feign ignorance etc. I suppose some people are like that and others aren't.
I'm pretty sure I still need saving, being very much a newby, but I think this site has been the source of enough good advice to prevent me becoming a complete goat.
To answer your question 'just another eejit'. Michael Moriarty saved me over 25 years ago. I thought the only flute player worth listening to was Matt Molloy, how wrong I was.
My Dad and Uncle would hold house jams nearly every weekend when I was a child. My first and best memories are sitting among the giants, rapt and listening wide-eyed. It was the mid-1970's in Philadelphia. They'd sing anything and everything. American folk, blues, ragtime, old-timey, Ma singing Irish songs Granda used to sing before he passed on, piano, guitars, mandolins, banjos.
I was blessed. Saved early and young by my own family. I can never be thankful enough. Common sense and courtesy translate well into any musical form.
Janek, your post reads like some sort of ITM social dysfunction primer, or a case study from that section of "The Field Guide to the Irish Music Session" by Barry Foyle entitled: "Why Are You All So Mean To Each Other?"
...though I see the value. I could probably use some more of "Hey, ya fecked up the whole tune there, ya mind listening to the key of it before you start whaling on your guitar?" instead of my usual pained politeness.
Alas, I am still being saved, I am sure -- you never really see yourself as others see you.
I do try to listen when I play (contradiction, perhaps), and that I learned from an elderly fiddler at a pub-session in NYC. I noted he would always listen a bit longer than some when a tune was kicked off before joining in, and made certain to blend in well. He was also actually interested in learning someone else's version or setting of a standard tune. He might even play it with you - awesome. A wonderful lesson.
Re. the BBTSST's, although they were not really the subject of Nutter's query, I will note into the record:
all of those above who are "saved" WANTED to be saved in the first place.
I was once surprised at the cold reception given to a guitarist at a session in New England, USA (home to President Cheney). I wondered, "Why are these people so hard on him? We all have to start somewhere, and maybe he just wants to learn."
I come to find out that they had, indeed, been patient with him, but his aspirations lay in a different direction than the others, who seriously wanted to play ITM, and play it well. He seemed to be a dabbler in ITM who felt that the session was there for him to goof around in. He did not take the time to learn the tunes or any of the Irish stylistic values which make it all work.
While I agree with tolerance and support for other seekers like myself, I believe this man simply did not want to be a part of what was really happening at that session, and continually shoved his personal itinerary onto the unwilling. He saw no need to be "saved," (Sadly, I ran into him at a bluegrass session recently, and I do not think he behaves any differently there.)
I believe my first attempt to communicate here (october 05) was almost a defense of noodling against mean and unfriendly people. I was set straight.
I have learned many things since. There are so many offences that can be made unawares. I really appreciate all my friends here. Reading thesession.org should be required.
Mr Michael Gill. He didn't shout at me playing completely out of tune around 5 years ago. And the next year he gave me kind words after I finished a set of Scots tunes at an Irish music session. He wouldn't remember me though.
I, too, was nurtured by Zina, Dirk, and their tune learning session. Fortunately, I was married to Z at the time when I was beginning, so she helped keep the faux pas moments to a minimum (so far, at least). Can't argue with a good upbringing.
Can anyone be truly saved? I think there is no moment of blazing light but just years of hard work, not that it is not enjoyable. When I was younger I could not listen as I can now and would ignore any advice given. A friend of mine said that he was in a pub in Ireland once and a man came up to him and said that he would give £100000 to be able to play like him. He replied that it would be a very bad rate for the amount of hours put in.
SWFL Fiddler, please read my post as slightly tongue-in-cheek. What I wrote there is true, if somewhat exaggerated. Learning mainly from listening and observation, I owe a lot to people who criticized my playing, even if it was made in aggressive way - it helped me move upwards where my self-judgement failed me.
A number of people, my buddy Anthony Ruby who got me away from playing well-hackneyed ballads for money, and got me playing tunes, and looking for songs with a bit more soul in them. Gerry McKee, first time that I played a session with him it made me realise that I wasn't such a great fella after all, and that I had a lot of work to do. The Ceili Allstars had a similar effect on me when I first joined the ranks, it got me used to thinking on my feet as opposed to working everything out beforehand.
I'm still looking for a saviour.........Help Please................Eoin I'd say you 'd be one of mine along with the Celi All Stars Ye guys are a great bunch and when I think of the Celi All stars .I think of a Siobhan Peoples Quote that fits....."Traditional Irish music attracts people that deserve it".......................................Colm Murphy nearly killed me a couple of times for making stupid mistakes.So by him not killing I supose he kinda saved me........Afrocelt has a huge influnce on how I play ............And My buddy cotter once told me the Garda were coming and saved me a few years in jail
Janek, you are right on. I appreciate the firm approach no matter how grumpy. It's something I wish I had more of, to be honest. It's a Ying and Yang world, we need the pained politeless and the firm yet vitally instructional crankiness.
...and Saint, good buddies posting 'look-out' are a vital part of any young lad's upbringing. They should be issued to every boy upon hitting puberty.
Emm... hand shakily raised as a perennial tosser... head bowed, eyes unable to meet those of the benighted ones... clutching me shakey egg as one would a lifebuoy... fiddle grudgingly squawking in protest... guitar, seemingly possessed, defiantly bangin' out inappropriate power chords, ... ahh, lookin' in the mirror's a hard thing.
Everybody is doing well. We have a whole new group of players, so it's business as usual. Now if we could just get them to come to all the fun workshops we put together... Sigh.
The guy I'm most grateful for in ITM is a great pipe player in Dingle called Con Durham who first and foremost, is a friendly and courteous man regardless of one's level of ability. But the thing that really stands out about him in my experience of ITM was he is generous with his knowledge. The way I started to learn tunes was to just go and listen at sessions, and the ones I liked I'd ask "What was the name of that tune?" In a sea of "oh, it's a reel", or "names!?I don't know the names!" Con would (will) not only tell me but give me further info- eg "that's called Madam Bonaparte, we call it a set dance but you can play it as a hornpipe. The best version I've heard is by Finbar Furey "..and so on. (I've no doubt that once news gets out about this the elitist Magic Circle that is the ITM scene in Ireland will throw him out for sharing trade secrets!). There are many many wonderful Trad musicians down there but Con is still for me a minor hero. Thanks Con!
One other story about Con..we were talking after a gig I'd done playing pop songs, Beatles covers etc, about the difference between that and ITM. He said, "that stuff you play, that music, I don't understand it, i don't know how to play it. But THIS music (ie Trad), it's in my bones." And you know, you honestly can hear it in his Madam Bonaparte. Very inspiring.
I moved to Germany in my second year of playing, and there met Jackie Small. During the year he gradually clued me into the notion that traditional irish music was something that could be a part of my life, not just something I heard on recordings. I seriously had no idea that there was more to it than performing and recording, and that most of the people I was listening to were not necessarily full-time musicians.
James Kelly helped me learn how to organize what I am absorbing and make real use of it. Most importantly he made me appreciate my own playing for what it is.
Who saved you?
Who saved you?
Hello all – long time lurker, first time contributor here. Over the past year I have enjoyed reading numerous rants regarding the various fringe elements and social misfits who occasionally attend our sessions. You know who I mean – the backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and wankers who, although only wishing to be part of the musical experience – tend to ruin it for others due to their unfortunate ignorance. And yet every time I read one of these rants, I can’t help but remember that I too was once a clueless newbie and committed numerous infractions and faux pas that should have rightfully banished me forever to the Isle of Misfit Toys. I attended my first session in 1993. Among my many heinous transgressions was the fact that I was a compulsive noodler. I noodled so often I could have easily opened my own Italian restaurant by the third set of reels. Mind you I wasn’t toting some delicate little mandolin or a whistle off in a snug somewhere – I was clattering along with nearly every tune on a bloody banjo! That alone would have gotten me physically ejected from most sessions. Yet by some miracle, I was fortunate to meet some of the most quality people it has been my pleasure to have ever known. Rather than curse my darkness, they lit a beacon and helped me overcome my arrogance and ignorance. First it was a fiddle player named John from Aberdeen Scotland. Then a fiddle player named Sheila from Brooklyn NY. Then a mandolin player named Corey from Canada. Over the years each one of them pulled me aside and not only taught me loads of tunes, but taught me how to become a functional member of the session community. Like Saint Patrick and the evangelists of old, they led me to a state of grace rather than let me wallow in ignorance. So my question to you all is who saved you? Who have you saved? Are you the type of person who can politely lead a newbie to understanding or are you a soul crusher who casts out the unclean before they have a chance to be saved? It seems to me if we want our local ITM music scenes to remain healthy and growing – we must be willing to help others.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Who saved you?
Zina Lee and her tune learning session in Colorado.
Funny, that. I was a musical trainwreck and totally lost and confused until I met those guys about six months after starting the pipes.
Whatever has happened, I'm very appreciative of that.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Who saved you?
Would you believe Barry Foy, who literally wrote the book on session etiquette? And many other kind people, of course, including an elderly man who doesn't play an instrument--in fact, he's deaf as a post--but who knows a lot about the value of a positive, constructive attitude. When I tell people that Irish traditional music has made me a better person, I'm not kidding.
Not to say that I don't enjoy the occasional pint, as well. ;>}
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by mickray
Re: Who saved you?
I am a lost soul still waiting for salvation, but I've been shown a lot of things by a lot of people over the years.
I should credit guitarist Dave J for dragging me into the company of some very fine and renowned musicians in the early 80s but I was so overwhelmed I gave up for about ten years! At least that gave me a sense of what a good session could be like.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Bren
Re: Who saved you?
Well, it is blatantly obviousJusa Nutter, that you are not saved. Having claimed that you were saved by good quality people from wallowing in ignorance, and claiming that we must be willing to help others, you then display your total ignorance by writing "You know who I mean – the backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and tossers who, although only wishing to be part of the musical experience – tend to ruin it for others due to their unfortunate ignorance" So much for helping others.
There are quite a few groups in that list, including one which probably contains yourself. But you simply insult them all, in the mistaken belief that backers do not belong in a session.
I assume you are not from Ireland? You must live in a country with little freedom, dominated by rules.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Who saved you?
I've nev er been saved, boo hoo, it's why I kick mesel' in the @rse when I dance...will they babtize me with guiness and raise me up to sit with the elect?
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by stevecomputer
Re: Who saved you?
Blisster, sweetie. Take a deep breath and read the next line of Nutter's post. He was lost, but has found his way. He embraced his tosserdom and has repented his prideful ways. And probably is a lot more fun to play tunes with. Enlightenment is a relative thing, since we all wander through our lives in various stages of cluelessness. Eh?
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Who saved you?
This is tooo deep for me. "musical experience"?
Maybe Jusa Nutter should read my upcoming treatise-
'Artistic Expression of Free Reed Instruments in the context of Social Guiness Consumption'
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Who saved you?
Mr Bliss - you misunderstand - I was mearly quoting the phrases that others had put in their previous posts regarding "ruining" sessions. - The session I regularly attend has some of the finest guitar and bodhran players one could ever hope for. In fact bodhran players in our town respectfully play one at a time as to not interfere with others!
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Who saved you?
A million apologies Juza Ntter, it is my full time day job to argue, so sometimes I get carried away.
Maybe all those other posters live in countries with no freedom, bound by rules.
And having looked at your profile, a million apologies to President Cheney, one of the good guys.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Who saved you?
Seems like the only "rule" (more of a common courtesy, really) here--as at sessions--is to ask yourself before jumping in whether your participation will contribute to or detract from the goings on. Will your input add to the craic or spoil it for others?
I learned that from my brother.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Who saved you?
"backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and tossers"
These sort of insults come up all the time.
Couldn't we condense it a bit for future use?
What about "bakongas, strumpers and shankers" ?
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Bren
Re: Who saved you?
Or BBTSST.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Batlady
Re: Who saved you?
Or just simply B.S.....
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Who saved you?
Mr Bliss - if you wish to slam my opinions, my nationality, and even my instrument of choice - fair play to you. But to randomly lump me in with Dick Cheney? - Ouch - That's a bit low even for the yellow board innit?
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Who saved you?
Seems like the only "rule" (more of a common courtesy, really) here--as at sessions--is to ask yourself before jumping in whether your participation will contribute to or detract from the goings on. Will your input add to the craic or spoil it for others?
I learned that from my brother.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by cheshire puddy tat
Wow, deep man, yea!
But which was yours? Adding or spoiling?
Could be the subject for a fascinating debate.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Who saved you?
Oops forgot the
above.
In truth, it did sound a bit moralizing CPT, but I know what you meant.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Who saved you?
Heh, Bliss, maybe you took it that way out of guilt for jumping down poor Jusa Nutter's throat.
It's not deep, but no less relevant. In the line of "Ask not what your session can do for you, but what you can do for your session," as has been repeated on this board over the years. Applies equally well for contributing to the threads here.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Who saved you?
Could we petition Jeremy to stick the "Ask not...." line at the top of the Discussions list?
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Andy V
Re: Who saved you?
Nothing to do with the subject. I'm just going to quote a line from the original post to see if the automatic rude-word filter has been changed, or if something mysterious is going on:
"the backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and tossers who, although only wishing to be"
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Who saved you?
No, it's mysterious. Why is the word w.a.n.k.e.r in the original post there, but the first four letters automatically changed to "toss" in other posts?
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Who saved you?
I'm probly paranoid though I read an implied "them and us" thing in the question, like being "connected" where i come from, or a "made man" in the mafia. I fall out with myself over playing music but I'd listen to any of you play. "the backers, bonkers, bangers, thumpers, strummers, and shakers and tossers", I'm sure I'm one of them to someone else. I'd stand in the line with me pike raised with anyone who wants to play a tune. I'm glad for you if you are finding good things in what you are chasing, I just hate the whole inclusive/ excluisive thing.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by stevecomputer
Re: Who saved you?
Stevecomputer - I'm not sure how this got so twisted about, but my only point was that I began my exploration into session life by making every common social mistake one could make - mistakes that are regularly pointed out within this forum, and sometimes with a great deal of venom. I then wanted to pay tribute to some fine musicians who steered me the right way, and encourage others to do the same at their locals should the opportunity present itself with an eager beginner.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Who saved you?
Boojum, all it goes to show is that Homer still nods occasionally
And who saved me? I think the answer lies in the adage that it takes two people to make a child, but it takes the whole village to turn that child into an adult.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: Who saved you?
Well put, Nutter.
I have to say, I've been much encouraged by the people I've met who've encouraged me in the right direction along the years, including two very excellent mando players, some fine fiddlers, and one or two human-esque bodhran players.
One story I'll always remember. I was just beginning on the tenor banjo, and I brought it out to the local. I was encouraged to play a tune, and I did so with great embarassment. I stammered through Bag of Spuds, and to my horror nobody else knew it.
To my delight, however, the next week I showed up, and another banjo player asked me to play Bag of Spuds, and then joined right in. He'd learned it so he could play it with me. THAT made me want to play!
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by dirtyheel
Re: Who saved you?
Playing music teaches us so much more than music.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by morning star
Re: Who saved you?
Hm, it was a number of people, most of them sour, impatient old gits, who would sit for a couple of tunes just frowning, and then burst in a cascade of insults. Thankfully, between the insults, a real pearls of wisdom were passed, which I duly collected.
Some time ago, I was a cheerful, open, skill-less and tactless backer, who would come into a session and ruin the experience for other by playing too loud and out of rhythm, as I was in love with the sound of my own instrument (did that make me a "tosser"?)
After several enlightening meetings and sessions like that, I became a tactful, skilled backer, surly and impatient, hating the sound of guitar for more than a couple of sets, refusing to play despite the pleas of my session friends, shunning other backers and sessions of more than four players, and bursting into cascades of insults should someone tactless, skill-less and cheerful try and join in to spoil my experience.
I guess it's just my time to pass the wisdom on.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by EastPole
Re: Who saved you?
I have been helped along the way by a few people but one always has to be cautious not to wear their patience thin! To know when to sit back and just listen. We too had a fiddle player, John who ssdly passed away and he could be cantankerous at times but I always was appreciative of the fact that he would always make an effort to join in if he half knew the tune I was starting at all. He'd supply a tune name whereas others might feign ignorance etc. I suppose some people are like that and others aren't.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Who saved you?
Des Hurley, over 20 years ago. He didn't need to say anything. I just heard him and I was saved.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Who saved you?
I'm pretty sure I still need saving, being very much a newby, but I think this site has been the source of enough good advice to prevent me becoming a complete goat.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by robharper
Re: Who saved you?
I was born OK the first time.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by silver bow
Re: Who saved you?
I'm saving myself for later.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by P-K
Re: Who saved you?
To answer your question 'just another eejit'. Michael Moriarty saved me over 25 years ago. I thought the only flute player worth listening to was Matt Molloy, how wrong I was.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by curlew
Re: Who saved you?
My Dad and Uncle would hold house jams nearly every weekend when I was a child. My first and best memories are sitting among the giants, rapt and listening wide-eyed. It was the mid-1970's in Philadelphia. They'd sing anything and everything. American folk, blues, ragtime, old-timey, Ma singing Irish songs Granda used to sing before he passed on, piano, guitars, mandolins, banjos.
I was blessed. Saved early and young by my own family. I can never be thankful enough. Common sense and courtesy translate well into any musical form.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Who saved you?
Janek, your post reads like some sort of ITM social dysfunction primer, or a case study from that section of "The Field Guide to the Irish Music Session" by Barry Foyle entitled: "Why Are You All So Mean To Each Other?"
...though I see the value. I could probably use some more of "Hey, ya fecked up the whole tune there, ya mind listening to the key of it before you start whaling on your guitar?" instead of my usual pained politeness.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Who saved you?
Alas, I am still being saved, I am sure -- you never really see yourself as others see you.
I do try to listen when I play (contradiction, perhaps), and that I learned from an elderly fiddler at a pub-session in NYC. I noted he would always listen a bit longer than some when a tune was kicked off before joining in, and made certain to blend in well. He was also actually interested in learning someone else's version or setting of a standard tune. He might even play it with you - awesome. A wonderful lesson.
Re. the BBTSST's, although they were not really the subject of Nutter's query, I will note into the record:
all of those above who are "saved" WANTED to be saved in the first place.
I was once surprised at the cold reception given to a guitarist at a session in New England, USA (home to President Cheney). I wondered, "Why are these people so hard on him? We all have to start somewhere, and maybe he just wants to learn."
I come to find out that they had, indeed, been patient with him, but his aspirations lay in a different direction than the others, who seriously wanted to play ITM, and play it well. He seemed to be a dabbler in ITM who felt that the session was there for him to goof around in. He did not take the time to learn the tunes or any of the Irish stylistic values which make it all work.
While I agree with tolerance and support for other seekers like myself, I believe this man simply did not want to be a part of what was really happening at that session, and continually shoved his personal itinerary onto the unwilling. He saw no need to be "saved," (Sadly, I ran into him at a bluegrass session recently, and I do not think he behaves any differently there.)
But life goes on.
Cheers, all.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Rook
Re: Who saved you?
I agree with robharper ... this site.
I believe my first attempt to communicate here (october 05) was almost a defense of noodling against mean and unfriendly people. I was set straight.
I have learned many things since. There are so many offences that can be made unawares. I really appreciate all my friends here. Reading thesession.org should be required.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Who saved you?
Beautiful tunes.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Who saved you?
bodhran bliss
It's 'Emporer Cheney' I believe.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Who saved you?
For an awful second I thought you were saying that I saved you.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Who saved you?
Mr Michael Gill. He didn't shout at me playing completely out of tune around 5 years ago. And the next year he gave me kind words after I finished a set of Scots tunes at an Irish music session. He wouldn't remember me though.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by slainte
Re: Who saved you?
I, too, was nurtured by Zina, Dirk, and their tune learning session. Fortunately, I was married to Z at the time when I was beginning, so she helped keep the faux pas moments to a minimum (so far, at least). Can't argue with a good upbringing.
Pete
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Who saved you?
"Common sense and courtesy translate well into any musical form." SWFL Fiddler - your post sums up the atmosphere I like at sessions.
If you have common sense and courtesy and some madness too it's better than rules and etiquette
slainte, watch it or you'll be had for libel
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Bren
Re: Who saved you?
Good karma, right Bren? If ya like that sorta stuff.
Though being bonkers helps too, you're right on.
...and furthermore, have anyone actually met any 'sane' fiddlers?
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Who saved you?
Can anyone be truly saved? I think there is no moment of blazing light but just years of hard work, not that it is not enjoyable. When I was younger I could not listen as I can now and would ignore any advice given. A friend of mine said that he was in a pub in Ireland once and a man came up to him and said that he would give £100000 to be able to play like him. He replied that it would be a very bad rate for the amount of hours put in.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by tlittlewazzock
Re: Who saved you?
SWFL Fiddler, please read my post as slightly tongue-in-cheek. What I wrote there is true, if somewhat exaggerated. Learning mainly from listening and observation, I owe a lot to people who criticized my playing, even if it was made in aggressive way - it helped me move upwards where my self-judgement failed me.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by EastPole
Re: Who saved you?
Tune learning sessions are awesome. Every trad music community should have one.
How are those guys doing, Pete?
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Who saved you?
The Internet. various sites on session etiquette, particularly an adult learner program one based in Edinburgh.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by cathrynb
Re: Who saved you?
A number of people, my buddy Anthony Ruby who got me away from playing well-hackneyed ballads for money, and got me playing tunes, and looking for songs with a bit more soul in them. Gerry McKee, first time that I played a session with him it made me realise that I wasn't such a great fella after all, and that I had a lot of work to do. The Ceili Allstars had a similar effect on me when I first joined the ranks, it got me used to thinking on my feet as opposed to working everything out beforehand.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by eoinbouzouki
Re: Who saved you?
I'm still looking for a saviour.........Help Please................Eoin I'd say you 'd be one of mine along with the Celi All Stars Ye guys are a great bunch and when I think of the Celi All stars .I think of a Siobhan Peoples Quote that fits....."Traditional Irish music attracts people that deserve it".......................................Colm Murphy nearly killed me a couple of times for making stupid mistakes.So by him not killing I supose he kinda saved me........Afrocelt has a huge influnce on how I play ............And My buddy cotter once told me the Garda were coming and saved me a few years in jail
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Saint
Re: Who saved you?
Janek, you are right on. I appreciate the firm approach no matter how grumpy. It's something I wish I had more of, to be honest. It's a Ying and Yang world, we need the pained politeless and the firm yet vitally instructional crankiness.
...and Saint, good buddies posting 'look-out' are a vital part of any young lad's upbringing. They should be issued to every boy upon hitting puberty.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Who saved you?
Emm... hand shakily raised as a perennial tosser... head bowed, eyes unable to meet those of the benighted ones... clutching me shakey egg as one would a lifebuoy... fiddle grudgingly squawking in protest... guitar, seemingly possessed, defiantly bangin' out inappropriate power chords, ... ahh, lookin' in the mirror's a hard thing.
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by drone
Re: Who saved you?
* How are those guys doing, Pete?
Everybody is doing well. We have a whole new group of players, so it's business as usual. Now if we could just get them to come to all the fun workshops we put together... Sigh.
Pete
# Posted on July 27th 2007 by Reverend
Re: Who saved you?
The guy I'm most grateful for in ITM is a great pipe player in Dingle called Con Durham who first and foremost, is a friendly and courteous man regardless of one's level of ability. But the thing that really stands out about him in my experience of ITM was he is generous with his knowledge. The way I started to learn tunes was to just go and listen at sessions, and the ones I liked I'd ask "What was the name of that tune?" In a sea of "oh, it's a reel", or "names!?I don't know the names!" Con would (will) not only tell me but give me further info- eg "that's called Madam Bonaparte, we call it a set dance but you can play it as a hornpipe. The best version I've heard is by Finbar Furey "..and so on. (I've no doubt that once news gets out about this the elitist Magic Circle that is the ITM scene in Ireland will throw him out for sharing trade secrets!). There are many many wonderful Trad musicians down there but Con is still for me a minor hero. Thanks Con!
One other story about Con..we were talking after a gig I'd done playing pop songs, Beatles covers etc, about the difference between that and ITM. He said, "that stuff you play, that music, I don't understand it, i don't know how to play it. But THIS music (ie Trad), it's in my bones." And you know, you honestly can hear it in his Madam Bonaparte. Very inspiring.
# Posted on July 29th 2007 by hakanozel
Re: Who saved you?
I moved to Germany in my second year of playing, and there met Jackie Small. During the year he gradually clued me into the notion that traditional irish music was something that could be a part of my life, not just something I heard on recordings. I seriously had no idea that there was more to it than performing and recording, and that most of the people I was listening to were not necessarily full-time musicians.
James Kelly helped me learn how to organize what I am absorbing and make real use of it. Most importantly he made me appreciate my own playing for what it is.
# Posted on July 30th 2007 by _Steph_