Hi all,
last weekend early one afternoon, i was in a well known pub where the was a dude playing the guitar and another buck playing the pipes and whistles. Both seemed to me to be excellent musicians. Another guy was at the bar who was also a musician( i know as i saw him play before). He was sharing a couple of jokes with us while at the same time appreciating the music being played. He then asked the guitar player if he knew the Parting glass, he got a reply saying that he knew very few irish tunes(which was a lie) The the guy asked at the bar if he could play it on his guitar, to which he got the reply, "we are having our session, you go get your own" After this a couple of remarks were exchanged and the guy at the bar left! The guitarist proceeded to play another song, and the piper started to play alon on his whistle, but said after a few seconds"Oh i Don`t know this one, to which the guitarist said abruptly"well don`t play it then" Ithought this to be very arrogant! Do people get so caught up in themselves, that they expect people only to listen to them, and not wrec their song or take the lime light away from them, or what is it! Surely music should open peoples mind and not close it!!!! I`ve noticed this moreso since i joined this discussion group!
Asking the musicians if they knew "The Parting Glass" sounds a bit cheeky. It's like "Can you play "Over the hills and far away" ?"
Perhaps, this is what annoyed the guitarist. The guy "at the bar" may have been a bit p*ssed and considered to be a nuisance. I don't know. "The parting glass" is a "finishing off" piece so it seem a strange request in the middle of the evening.
The second scenario seems more strange especially if the two of them were supposed to be playing together. However, the guitarist might just have "been crabbit" after his altercation with the guy at the bar.
Hard for us to judge the situation though unless we were there. Just surmising.
I don't think it's right for a guitarist who didn't bother to bring his own guitar to ask to borrow the guitar another guy is playing. What would the piper have said if some guy at the bar had asked to borrow his pipes to play something? The piper would have probably said the same thing- go get your own pipes.
As for the request, I always play requests if I know it, and do my best if I'm unsure of it. I'll explain that I've never played such-and-such before but I'll give it a go, unless it's something I've never heard of. Sure The Parting Glass ought to be at the end, but what harm is there in humouring the guy?
I've noticed that when a punter at the bar asks the session to play a request, almost always something thoroughly non-ITM, a collective amnesia suddenly pervades the musicians. Very strange.
The punter "at the bar" is often(if not usually) P*ssed whether he is a musician or not.
An "off duty" musician should normally have enough " nous" to leave the players be if he was sober enough.
The 'can I have a shot of your guitar' line is one that no guitarist should have to hear at a session. How often have you seen the borrowee sit there battering away for half an hour or more while you are then relegated to the bar?
I think I have told this one before but it is worth repeating here. I was playing in a session in Galway, when this drunken Scotsman asked if he could sing "Danny Boy". The flautist replied "I don't know, can you?" This kind of thing I prefer to your guitarist's approach. He sounds a bit grumpy. Actually the drunken man pretty much ruined the session, so I have some sympathy . . .
I have no problem lending my instrument judiciously - it has resulted in some wonderful off-the-cuff moments from visiting musicians. There is always the risk of bogman's scenario though, when they "forget" to give it back and leave you stranded. I just say after a couple of tunes "Right, give it back, I need to play something" and take it without further explanation. (and none is necessary)
Johnny J, you would need to be totally paranoid to take a request for "The Parting Glass" the way you have just interpreted it, and I mean TOTALLY paranoid.
"Can I borrow your instrument?" can often be taken to mean "I didn't bother to bring my own instrument because I didn't feel like playing WITH you, but could you do me the favor of lending me your instrument so I can play INSTEAD of you for a few minutes?"
I could see that being a little insulting. Sometimes that even comes with the implication: "I think the other people in the bar would prefer to hear me than you", though you'd have to have some history with the person in question to take it that far.
In the second case, "I don't really know this tune" implies "I know this is probably going to sound bad (because I haven't bothered to learn it properly), but I'm going to do it anyway, because I don't think you'll mind listening to me make a bunch of mistakes".
The proper response to this one is almost ALWAYS "please don't play it then". One of the first rules of session etiquette is "If you don't know it, don't play it"
Well, I turned up at a session a while back without any instrument (long story) and someone kindly lent me a whistle. A bit different though I suppose.
Sounds like it may have been a rough time at the pub.
Musicians do not always get along. You do not need Irish traditional for that result. I suppose some people on this thread have played someonelses' instrument or loaned their own.
Kevin Crawford once borrowed my friends' F whistle for part of a workshop.
Music should definitely open peoples' minds.
In our session if someone does not know a tune we will often take the time for learning. Come to think of it if you never played anything you did not know it would be impossible to learn tunes.
ya, i seen stuff like this once in awhile. both guys probably could have handled themselves better, the one guy shouldn't take himself so serious and the other should've probably just let him continue playing
If you can't tell by the replies to your initial inquery, iluvpints, YES, people are so arraogant that they can't deal with the little things to make someone happy, even something as petty as a simple request. And you are absolutely right, there's too much of that here on this site. It's one thing to not want to play a certain tune, it's something else to make someone feel like a dip sh*t for simply asking a question.
In fact, often the opposite is true to what is being said here. Among flute players anyway. It's almost a given that you give someone else, whom you haven't seen before's flute a blast, or if a regular with a new flute, give it a blast. Ask first of course -and usually the owner is keen to let another flute player try it out. Not quite the same as the case described, but there's a lot LESS selfishness and egotism around than is being portrayed. IMHO.
I'm gathering that this was an informal session and not a session gig for tourists, if so you have to remember Informal sessions are not concerts, they are social events for musicians and so many musicians don't consider they are playing for anyone other than themselves and that is why musicians often respond negatively to requests from punters.
Musicians can react even worse when someone they don't know who is probably p*ssed as a f*rt asks if they can borrow their guitar/bodhrán/flute etc. This is understandable if you consider that the instrument might be very valuable and/or of sentimental value to the owner. I never lend my guitar to people unless I know them well and/or know they are able to play. You wouldn't go up to someone you don't know and ask them if you could borrow their girl/boyfriend now would you!! Musicians often are VERY closely attached to their instruments.
The second point does seem strange if the guitarist was being serious and cross with the piper, but I wouldn't be surprised if the guitarist was just taking the mickey out of the piper in a very sarcastic way. Some sarcastic people can seem they are being nasty if you don't know them.
In summary, if the guy at the bar was a geniune, sober musician he wouldn't have asked the guitarist for a lend of his instrument.
The guitarist sounds like a very sarcastic person and perhaps he didn't mean his comments in a 100% serious way.
Then again there are some complete assh*les around and this guy could just be one of them!
There is always this danger: the punter who is humoured in his request for the parting glass next puts in his request for the one-eyed reilly, following up with demands for i'll tell me ma and the wild rover. Other punters feel entitled to have their requests honoured. Your session edges towards a Clancy brothers retrospective, and punters can be offended when it doesn't continue that way. Turn down the first request, and the situation doesn't develop.
To be honest, who do musicians play and learn the music for? Is it for themselves, for their inner being, so that they can listen to themselves and wallow in the applause and compliments that are directed towards them. Is it to learn a new form of communication,or expression! Or is it to please people and make them feel emotions through music! It seems to me that at some stage in a musicians life, when they become as competant on an instrument as pleases them, they become selfish and narrowminded, not realising what a gift it is to be able to create and play music, no matter what instrument (or Drum) its on!
Oh yes. Yes yes a thousand times yes. Playing diddley music is not only selfish and narrow minded, it's anti social. I say anti social in a broad sense, you need like minded people to play it with, but broadly speaking, in terms of what punters like and for any other musician, be them immersed in another genre or even decent all rounders, it is insular and selfish.
Is this a bad thing? Well it's bad if you see yourself as a performer. You have to do things to it like arrange it or add percussion or change up a tone towards the end of a set, etc. But it's perfect if you have reached that stage in your life where you realise there is no gift involved, who are you gonna thank for it anyway? It's perfect if you get to the stage where you can free yourself from the need for such distractions as applause and compliments.
I am usually about as inclined to lend an instrument as have unprotected sex with an emaciated, shivering stranger; but recently a guy arrived at a session, sat quietly for a while, and then during a break came over and asked if my banjo was a Bacon and Day. After a couple of exchanged comments, he mentioned that he had a Vega at home in Florida, and could he look at my instrument? I then felt confident enough to hand it over (he appeared quite sober and stable).
It was obvious that he knew how to play, and he then asked if he could play a set, which I was happy to agree to. Nobody knew the tunes he played, but everyone was happy to hear them. Stranger then thanked me and handed the banjo back.
A few months ago I was sitting in a pub playing my box when I was asked in all sincerity by a girl punter. 'Do you have a set of spoons with you. I stopped playing, took the box off and opened my accordion case. I said sadly 'Sorry just a few knives and forks, but no spoons' She accepted the fact that not every accordionist carries a set of spoons, thanked me and left.....I mean, what else could I say.
A bloke (yank) came up to us the other day and asked if we would play a sinatra standard. We said sorry, but we didn't know any. He got all stroppy and was saying don't be ridiculous, there's no way you can have the talent and skill to play the way you do and not be able to rattle off such a straight forward song. He thought we were just being belligerent and anti social.
We were right, of course, we can't play that stuff. But he was right too.
ITM - Whats the story
ITM - Whats the story
Hi all,
last weekend early one afternoon, i was in a well known pub where the was a dude playing the guitar and another buck playing the pipes and whistles. Both seemed to me to be excellent musicians. Another guy was at the bar who was also a musician( i know as i saw him play before). He was sharing a couple of jokes with us while at the same time appreciating the music being played. He then asked the guitar player if he knew the Parting glass, he got a reply saying that he knew very few irish tunes(which was a lie) The the guy asked at the bar if he could play it on his guitar, to which he got the reply, "we are having our session, you go get your own" After this a couple of remarks were exchanged and the guy at the bar left! The guitarist proceeded to play another song, and the piper started to play alon on his whistle, but said after a few seconds"Oh i Don`t know this one, to which the guitarist said abruptly"well don`t play it then" Ithought this to be very arrogant! Do people get so caught up in themselves, that they expect people only to listen to them, and not wrec their song or take the lime light away from them, or what is it! Surely music should open peoples mind and not close it!!!! I`ve noticed this moreso since i joined this discussion group!
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by iluvpints
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Asking the musicians if they knew "The Parting Glass" sounds a bit cheeky. It's like "Can you play "Over the hills and far away" ?"
Perhaps, this is what annoyed the guitarist. The guy "at the bar" may have been a bit p*ssed and considered to be a nuisance. I don't know. "The parting glass" is a "finishing off" piece so it seem a strange request in the middle of the evening.
The second scenario seems more strange especially if the two of them were supposed to be playing together. However, the guitarist might just have "been crabbit" after his altercation with the guy at the bar.
Hard for us to judge the situation though unless we were there. Just surmising.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: ITM - Whats the story
I don't think it's right for a guitarist who didn't bother to bring his own guitar to ask to borrow the guitar another guy is playing. What would the piper have said if some guy at the bar had asked to borrow his pipes to play something? The piper would have probably said the same thing- go get your own pipes.
As for the request, I always play requests if I know it, and do my best if I'm unsure of it. I'll explain that I've never played such-and-such before but I'll give it a go, unless it's something I've never heard of. Sure The Parting Glass ought to be at the end, but what harm is there in humouring the guy?
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: ITM - Whats the story
I've noticed that when a punter at the bar asks the session to play a request, almost always something thoroughly non-ITM, a collective amnesia suddenly pervades the musicians. Very strange.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ITM - Whats the story
The punter "at the bar" is often(if not usually) P*ssed whether he is a musician or not.
An "off duty" musician should normally have enough " nous" to leave the players be if he was sober enough.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Johnny Jay
Re: ITM - Whats the story
The 'can I have a shot of your guitar' line is one that no guitarist should have to hear at a session. How often have you seen the borrowee sit there battering away for half an hour or more while you are then relegated to the bar?
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by bogman
Re: ITM - Whats the story
I think I have told this one before but it is worth repeating here. I was playing in a session in Galway, when this drunken Scotsman asked if he could sing "Danny Boy". The flautist replied "I don't know, can you?" This kind of thing I prefer to your guitarist's approach. He sounds a bit grumpy. Actually the drunken man pretty much ruined the session, so I have some sympathy . . .
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Fiddle Fancier
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Would you give a stranger your instrument?
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by stevecomputer
Re: ITM - Whats the story
I have no problem lending my instrument judiciously - it has resulted in some wonderful off-the-cuff moments from visiting musicians. There is always the risk of bogman's scenario though, when they "forget" to give it back and leave you stranded. I just say after a couple of tunes "Right, give it back, I need to play something" and take it without further explanation. (and none is necessary)
All in the best possible humour of course
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Bren
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Johnny J, you would need to be totally paranoid to take a request for "The Parting Glass" the way you have just interpreted it, and I mean TOTALLY paranoid.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Hmph
"Can I borrow your instrument?" can often be taken to mean "I didn't bother to bring my own instrument because I didn't feel like playing WITH you, but could you do me the favor of lending me your instrument so I can play INSTEAD of you for a few minutes?"
I could see that being a little insulting. Sometimes that even comes with the implication: "I think the other people in the bar would prefer to hear me than you", though you'd have to have some history with the person in question to take it that far.
In the second case, "I don't really know this tune" implies "I know this is probably going to sound bad (because I haven't bothered to learn it properly), but I'm going to do it anyway, because I don't think you'll mind listening to me make a bunch of mistakes".
The proper response to this one is almost ALWAYS "please don't play it then". One of the first rules of session etiquette is "If you don't know it, don't play it"
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Georgi
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Well, I turned up at a session a while back without any instrument (long story) and someone kindly lent me a whistle. A bit different though I suppose.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: ITM - Whats the story
As a flute player, somebody asking me if he can play my flute is a bit like asking me to kiss him.
Or her.
With any luck.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by David Levine
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Sounds like it may have been a rough time at the pub.
Musicians do not always get along. You do not need Irish traditional for that result. I suppose some people on this thread have played someonelses' instrument or loaned their own.
Kevin Crawford once borrowed my friends' F whistle for part of a workshop.
Music should definitely open peoples' minds.
In our session if someone does not know a tune we will often take the time for learning. Come to think of it if you never played anything you did not know it would be impossible to learn tunes.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by ain't fluffed
Re: ITM - Whats the story
ya, i seen stuff like this once in awhile. both guys probably could have handled themselves better, the one guy shouldn't take himself so serious and the other should've probably just let him continue playing
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by stevequincy
Re: ITM - Whats the story
I've seen flutes and whistles being lent out without too much fuss. I would draw the line at moothie though!
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Bren
Re: ITM - Whats the story
This is clearly a case of "jealousy in music" which was discussed recently.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: ITM - Whats the story
If you can't tell by the replies to your initial inquery, iluvpints, YES, people are so arraogant that they can't deal with the little things to make someone happy, even something as petty as a simple request. And you are absolutely right, there's too much of that here on this site. It's one thing to not want to play a certain tune, it's something else to make someone feel like a dip sh*t for simply asking a question.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by MR.
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Yeah, whistles are the Biros of trad music. Ownership is common...near enough.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: ITM - Whats the story
In fact, often the opposite is true to what is being said here. Among flute players anyway. It's almost a given that you give someone else, whom you haven't seen before's flute a blast, or if a regular with a new flute, give it a blast. Ask first of course -and usually the owner is keen to let another flute player try it out. Not quite the same as the case described, but there's a lot LESS selfishness and egotism around than is being portrayed. IMHO.
# Posted on July 25th 2007 by Rudall the time
Re: ITM - Whats the story
I'm gathering that this was an informal session and not a session gig for tourists, if so you have to remember Informal sessions are not concerts, they are social events for musicians and so many musicians don't consider they are playing for anyone other than themselves and that is why musicians often respond negatively to requests from punters.
Musicians can react even worse when someone they don't know who is probably p*ssed as a f*rt asks if they can borrow their guitar/bodhrán/flute etc. This is understandable if you consider that the instrument might be very valuable and/or of sentimental value to the owner. I never lend my guitar to people unless I know them well and/or know they are able to play. You wouldn't go up to someone you don't know and ask them if you could borrow their girl/boyfriend now would you!! Musicians often are VERY closely attached to their instruments.
The second point does seem strange if the guitarist was being serious and cross with the piper, but I wouldn't be surprised if the guitarist was just taking the mickey out of the piper in a very sarcastic way. Some sarcastic people can seem they are being nasty if you don't know them.
In summary, if the guy at the bar was a geniune, sober musician he wouldn't have asked the guitarist for a lend of his instrument.
The guitarist sounds like a very sarcastic person and perhaps he didn't mean his comments in a 100% serious way.
Then again there are some complete assh*les around and this guy could just be one of them!
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by The Tune Composer
Re: ITM - Whats the story
There is always this danger: the punter who is humoured in his request for the parting glass next puts in his request for the one-eyed reilly, following up with demands for i'll tell me ma and the wild rover. Other punters feel entitled to have their requests honoured. Your session edges towards a Clancy brothers retrospective, and punters can be offended when it doesn't continue that way. Turn down the first request, and the situation doesn't develop.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Nick Spencer
Re: ITM - Whats the story
To be honest, who do musicians play and learn the music for? Is it for themselves, for their inner being, so that they can listen to themselves and wallow in the applause and compliments that are directed towards them. Is it to learn a new form of communication,or expression! Or is it to please people and make them feel emotions through music! It seems to me that at some stage in a musicians life, when they become as competant on an instrument as pleases them, they become selfish and narrowminded, not realising what a gift it is to be able to create and play music, no matter what instrument (or Drum) its on!
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by iluvpints
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Oh yes. Yes yes a thousand times yes. Playing diddley music is not only selfish and narrow minded, it's anti social. I say anti social in a broad sense, you need like minded people to play it with, but broadly speaking, in terms of what punters like and for any other musician, be them immersed in another genre or even decent all rounders, it is insular and selfish.
Is this a bad thing? Well it's bad if you see yourself as a performer. You have to do things to it like arrange it or add percussion or change up a tone towards the end of a set, etc. But it's perfect if you have reached that stage in your life where you realise there is no gift involved, who are you gonna thank for it anyway? It's perfect if you get to the stage where you can free yourself from the need for such distractions as applause and compliments.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by ...
Re: ITM - Whats the story
Everybody like compliments, and it is a gift as only people who can`t play realise!!!!!!
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by iluvpints
Re: ITM - Whats the story
I am usually about as inclined to lend an instrument as have unprotected sex with an emaciated, shivering stranger; but recently a guy arrived at a session, sat quietly for a while, and then during a break came over and asked if my banjo was a Bacon and Day. After a couple of exchanged comments, he mentioned that he had a Vega at home in Florida, and could he look at my instrument? I then felt confident enough to hand it over (he appeared quite sober and stable).
It was obvious that he knew how to play, and he then asked if he could play a set, which I was happy to agree to. Nobody knew the tunes he played, but everyone was happy to hear them. Stranger then thanked me and handed the banjo back.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: ITM - Whats the story
A few months ago I was sitting in a pub playing my box when I was asked in all sincerity by a girl punter. 'Do you have a set of spoons with you. I stopped playing, took the box off and opened my accordion case. I said sadly 'Sorry just a few knives and forks, but no spoons' She accepted the fact that not every accordionist carries a set of spoons, thanked me and left.....I mean, what else could I say.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by Free Reed
Re: ITM - Whats the story
A bloke (yank) came up to us the other day and asked if we would play a sinatra standard. We said sorry, but we didn't know any. He got all stroppy and was saying don't be ridiculous, there's no way you can have the talent and skill to play the way you do and not be able to rattle off such a straight forward song. He thought we were just being belligerent and anti social.
We were right, of course, we can't play that stuff. But he was right too.
# Posted on July 26th 2007 by ...