So there I am at last night's session, sitting next to a very nice guy who happens to be playing that fastest of all instruments, the banjo, and he kicks into one of the few tunes I know. Problem is, he's playing it faster than I can, so every time I try jumping in on a phrase, I can't keep up. At one point I managed the whole tune once through, but lost it again.
Now, the parts I played sounded okay, I hit the notes in tune and in order, but there was a lot of stopping and starting going on, and I started to wonder if maybe that was distracting to the other players around me. There were only a few of us on our end of the table so the players around me could hear me pretty clearly. How does it work in situations like this? Is it better not to play unless you can play the whole thing?
Heh, wait till you sit in with some hotshot whistle player who launches into something at Warp 7. Banjo will never sound fast again....
If the session is fairly relaxed and friendly, I say it's fair game to try to hang on at or above your comfort speed. But as soon as you crash and burn, better to just drop out than try to get back on a galloping horse. The better players will sometimes play up tempo, expecting to lose the less experienced players. And they will likely want to hear themselves unadulterated.
On fiddle, you can play super quietly, so these sorts of attempts aren't so apparent to others in the circle. And the key to playing fast is to use very little bow. Better to practice both of these things in the privacy of your own home first.
In the beginning few years, you're much better off staying within comfortable tempos--speed will come. Pushing it too early can lead to bad habits.
It's better not to play at all unless you can. I'd have said to the guy after he'd finnished, "Whoa ... do me a favour and play that a bit slower next time." If he refuses, he's an idiot.
A proper musician will interpret the material (whatever it is) and play it in a way that brings out the beauty of the tune and enhance the ensemble.
People who see tune playing as a speed trial are not musicians.
A lot of people play an instrument, know all the tunes and their names and support ITM, but they are not musicians.
Yeah, a galloping horse, that's what session tunes feel like sometimes. In defense of the banjo player, he wasn't playing it *too* fast---faster than I would prefer, probably, but not at warp speed. I just couldn't keep up.
I had a feeling I should have just let it go after it felt too fast for me...I love this site, it's like a "Dear Abby" for Irish session musicians...
Part of understanding Kennedy's situation is realizing that she's fairly new to fiddle, playing Irish music, and playing in sessions. In all likelihood, the banjo player was well within his comfort zone--just too fast for Kennedy.
And that's okay.
My advice was aimed at someone who's not 100 percent up to the upper end of normal session speeds.
I think it helps to practice playing fast, and to try to tag along (assuming the session is casual enough to accept that). Sometimes you can play better (or, in this case, faster) in a session than you would at home. No harm in trying unless your session mates toss you out the door for trying.
"Dear Abby, dear Abby, I never had thought
That me and my girlfriend would ever get caught.
We were sitting in the backseat just shooting the breeze,
Her hair up in curlers, her pants at her knees...."
In our session we often will slow the tempo if it is requested.
I play whistle (slow or fast). All you have to do is ask.
Starting and stopping may be distracting but there must be techniques where you can make it work.
I play with a fiddler who tends to drop out at odd spots. It would not be so distracting - but it is the way she does it. Often she is at full volume & then stops rather suddenly. All the notes are there & on pitch but she could definitely use some volume technique.
A lot of the time it's a difference in perception of rhythm that makes a tune seem fast when in fact it's being played at a steady pace. Play the music for a few more years, get your next 500 or so tunes, and then give this some more thought. You'll probably find you'll be thinking either 1) I need to improve my technique so I can play faster, or 2) that guy needs to slow down - he's playing faster than his technique can support and he sounds sh*t. Don't know which it'll be, but probably the latter.
Our session plays at whatever tempo someone starts a tune--typically fairly slowly for newbies, at a healthier clip when we want to rollick through some reels. It's all good.
At a lot of the sessions I play at it's the other way round - the newbies just want to play fast; the more experienced players want to play slower and relish the tunes.
I've often found that a tune I've practised fairly enough, to the point of believing I've "got it", is played way too fast for me when I next, or first, encounter it in a session. This is not to imply that the session playing is over-fast. It is more that while practising I can / do stop, slow down and repeat quite a lot, especially with the difficult bits, in a way one obviously can't in a session. If I cannot cope with the tune in a session, it's because I've assumed myself fluent in it when I haven't been.
Last thursday i played in a session. For 3 hours, with songs in between, we played sets. And the majority were played at a fast(ish) pace. But it was perfect. It had a great drive. I wish i had some sort of speed gauge system thingy to tell what pace it was.
I don't agree that experienced like to up the tempo. I know of a banjo player who'l make an obvious point of not playing along to blistering paced tunes. But u can be sure he's bucket loads of experience.
If the pace is wrong and uncomfortable, don't play along, there's no point in enduring rather than enjoying. If anyone asks why u didnt play, tell them the pace was not what suited you.
Um, why be so quick to read into a post what isn't there? I never said experienced players *only* like to play fast. We do a lot of jigs and reels at a very relaxed lope, the better to explore the many possibilities they offer. But some of us are also capable of doing that at a fair clip--so we do. A whole night of reels played at 60 bpm isn't my idea of fun. Neither is a whole night of reels blasted out at 220 bpm. Variety is the spice girl of life....
As I've mentioned before, I play (fiddle) at a session that is 1) huge, and 2) *very* friendly. So when a tune in my repertoire comes up, I try to play it, even if I know I won't be able to play three rounds of it fluently and at speed. The other night, a newbie who was sitting next to me joined in on a reel, and commented afterward that she'd fouled it up entirely, playing out of tune, crossing strings sloppily, and playing any number of wrong notes. Despite the fact that I was sitting right next to her *and wasn't even playing that reel*, I couldn't tell. So that gives me confidence to play even when I can't keep up, though I certainly would behave (and have behaved) differently in a more intimate session. I do have a little orchestral mute that I slip on when we launch into a set that I'm not yet able to keep up with, mind you, and in my big session I can barely even hear myself playing when it's on.
Cheshire puddy tat, I'm intrigued by your comment about being able to play fiddle very quietly. The only (muteless) ways I know of to do that are by using less bow, or by decreasing pressure on the strings. It seems to me that doing either, at least for beginners like me and kennedy, is liable to build bad habits that we'd have to work doubly hard to break when we get to the point that we can play quickly *and* competently. (I'm sure it's no coincidence that for the better part of a year, I'd been trying to get tunes up to speed well before I was ready, *and* my teacher kept having to tell me that I needed to apply more pressure when bowing. When I play faster than I'm comfortable, I find myself just grazing over the strings.)
Gotta run to lunch, so I'll post a more detailed answer in a while. But yes, using less bow and unweighting the stick are the two main ways to play with less volume. It also helps to play with the bow closer to the end of the fingerboard.
These aren't "bad" habits--actually good ones. Far better to learn how to produce a strong clear tone with less bow and weight than simply relying on bow speed and "pressure." I haven't found an instrument yet that's easier to play quietly and well than loudly on. Getting control over your bow to play quietly is a great way to gain bow control in general.
Think of it this way--anyone can make a string vibrate by leaning on the bow--even someone who's never played a fiddle before. The key is to be able to draw tone out of the string without so much weight or speed. Lots of great Irish fiddlers are short-bow players (think John Carty, Martin Hayes) and even the longer bow players can crank out great sound with itty bitty, light bow strokes.
Cheshire, that's fair - it's certainly useful to be able to achieve good tone with less pressure and less bow. But, as you say, it's harder to play *well* that way, than it is to play well with pressure and higher bow speed. But when I (and possibly kennedy, and certainly any number of beginners) am having trouble playing quickly, and choose to play quietly, then we're probably not playing terribly well, either ;) . In other words - while playing with less pressure and less bow are good skills to learn, they only become good habits to get into when they're practiced with the purpose of achieving good tone in the process. And there's a huge difference between practicing with less pressure and less bow while paying close attention to tone, and session-playing with less pressure and less bow in a race to get through a tune that one can't even play with more of both. If the latter is going to be the context in which I'm using less pressure/using less bow/playing closer to the fingerboard, then I'm not developing good habits - I'm playing in a certain way in order to be inconspicuous *when playing badly*. On the other hand, if I'm practicing using less pressure/using less bow/playing closer to the fingerboard in such a way that I'm attaining good tone in the process, then presumably I've already mastered playing *loudly* with good tone (which is easier), in which case I'm not going to be playing quietly at the session!
(Gah, did that make any sense at all? I won't tell you how long it took me to write that paragraph. Maybe it's time for me to have lunch, too.)
From my experience of trying strings, mandolin, banjo, I found that as I struggled I increased speed, and ended up playing tunes at breakneck speed, and then hitting the wrong notes. So when I hear someone speeding up, I reckon they are losing the tune and panicking.
Bit like driving a car, especially for learners. Any eejit can drive fast, it's the slow bits, parking, 3 point turn, reverse parking, that catch you out.
As one who who is accused of playing fast-and readily acknowledging the character flaw- I have been a student of the problem.
Two types of player chronically do it.
1. Folks like me. My more patient experienced freinds will remind me to practice like I should play-moderate.
2. Arrogant players who think they are better than everyone else, or don't like to hear others at the expense of their obviously gifted talents. Those leave you in the dust, don't follow the subtle cues in the group for where the music is going and then crab alot. With them, it's best to sometimes pull out. Even if you practice, they will find another ploy (adding bars to the ends of turns, starting early on the count, things like that and ignoring everyone else)
Sorry to kvetch. i work once in a while with several prima donnas.
I find that often happens where the session is clicky, and they all know each other's tunes and to hell with everybody else. If you could sing a song and get a chance to do so, sing The Band Played Waltzing Matilda' that will teach them, or suggest that you play a slow air on your instrument. Play it about three or four times, then excuse yourself by saying that you have another session to go to.
The issue is not necessarily fast or slow: it is, do you like to play in that way? do you feel comfortable playing at that speed? Do you feel you can express something that you enjoy?
If you don't, then don't let yourself be put under pressure. You might feel forced to play, in a way that you are not happy with, not play as well as you would ordinarily and then be unhappy. There's no point. Just sit this one out, there's loads of other chances.
Hmmm. I think some of you are missing the point posed by Kennedy. She wanted to try to play along with the banjo player, who was not being an eejit, was not playing too fast for his own abilities, was not trying to exclude anyone.
"Fast" is a relative term. One person's "breakneck speed" is another's plod. Just because someone plays faster than you prefer or feel comfortable playing doesn't make them an elitist, unmusical, an eejit, or a prima donna. Kennedy's made it clear that the banjo player in question wasn't doing any of these things--it was *herself* that was uncomfortable with the speed. Given that she's a relative newcomer to fiddle and sessions, it might not have even been all that fast a tempo. Her question has more to do with the etiquette of tagging along even if you can't really keep up. She wasn't pressured to do this--she simply wanted to try, but worried that it bothered others.
To which I'd reply: Ask them, not us. And practice at home whatever gives you trouble in the session. Persevere and be patient--all things come in their own time.
Well said, Pol, and CPT, as was much of the more polite and helpful entries above.
The point should be having a good time, no? If a session is a social occasion among friends (some are, some, sadly, are not), then there should be room for all who come to share the music.
If the pace of the music is a bit fast for you as a newbie (or the tune is strange to you), good manners would state that you would not want to ruin things for the rest of your friends by forcing the issue. Also, if they are aware of your situation, they could, as friends in music, likely get around to tunes at everyone's current level and experience.
If we are supporting each other's love of this music, it is a two-way street. The experts should remember how it was when they were beginners and show a bit of charity, even if it means playing Harvest Home or the Kesh Jig more than twice a night for the newcomers sake, or even playing everyone's favorite "firewagon" reel at a moderate tempo once in a while.
And Kennedy, good on you -- many I have met would simply forge ahead at their pleasure, not considering whether they were upsetting their fellow sessioneers.
A further, brief thought is: this is a means of expression, the purpose is to communicate what you want to say. It is likely you will do this best at a pace and in a form in which you feel comfortable. In your session, if the others are real musicians, they will find the beauty in what you play
I wouldn't say the banjo is the "fastest of instruments"
It's actually quite hard to play fast as you have to finger and pick every note, while moving both hands' positions, unlike some of those wind instruments where you just blow while wiggling your fingers a bit.
Don't be shy about saying that it was too fast for you. It's not a criticism of the faster musician. You don't have to join in every tune and I can think of plenty of musicians who would remember your comment and try to play a bit slower next time so that you can join in.
The session I get to occasion is very friendly and open. One thing I've not heard yet is for someone like Kennedy to ask afterwards, "Can we do two more rounds just a bit slower? I think I got it." I don't think that would get much of an argument and have seen it done.
I realize this has to be done sparingly, but if you are being polite and respectful, I think everyone will be glad to work with new players, within reason.
I'm a rather experienced player who is not afraid to ask for a few more rounds of something at a slower speed. No shame in that, and you can get some good tunes.
At one of my regular sessions we try to encourage all players, experienced or new, to ask for a few more rounds at a slower tempo whenever one feels the need. It seems to be good for everyone in the session. I know those particular tunes do improve. Good to hear some people here are doing the same. It is never really a question of who is slow or fast. If you know what I mean.
I have come across one of these from time to time, someone who likes to play so fast that no one else can keep up...ever. When asked to play slower they either play so slowly implying that everyone else is an idiot or they wind it back up ignoring the timing of the majority. I usually pack up at this point and dont bother until they go away. My personal name for them is show ponies, all flash, some dash and no concept of anything other than their own spittle and shine.
This thread has been an interesting one. I am wondering though what you folks would define "breakneck" speed to be? 130-140 bpm on reels for example is that breakneck? Faster?
In my neck of the woods we have several regular sessions (with very few pariah intrusions) including the moderately paced (say 110 bpm or so on reels) CCE sessions, a weekly fast session lead by the "heavy hitters" where it's considertaley faster (around 124 on lively reels) and players are encouraged to push themselves and a weekly "slow" session where tunes are started very slowly and built up to moderate speed (say 100-110 bpm on reels).
I wouldn't say any of the regular player at the fast session are "show ponies" or show offs, many are from Ireland and the regulars are the best players around. This session gives them a chance to play faster. They are an accomodating bunch when it comes to players who are more compfortable with moderate tempos, but for the most part if you can't hang with them you get left behind. Bottom line is you aren't up to that speed your going to have more fun at the slower sessions until you gain experience.
In my opinion every regular session has it's own culture as dictated by the leaders and regulars. It's no more appropriate to feel negative towards fast players who's territory you are in then it is for the fast players to deliberatly play over everyones head at a slow or moderate paced session. I think one should have the good sence to go with the flow so to speak. Unfortunately that's not always the case.
"Slow" Session may be a bit of a misnomer. Seems there are basically two types of session; Those where you learn new tunes & Those where you play - with some crossover between these.
The 1st goal of a "slow" session is to learn. New tunes may be introduced at a slow tempo. But the goal is to develop speed over several sessions. Hence one can play 'known' tunes up to speed in these sessions. BTW - the purpose is to learn; so do that w/ or w/out sheet music & then leave the sheet music at home.
Oh yes, & it is possible to learn a tune played at tempo for those who are able.
The main reason I wanted to start this thread was to hear people's reactions to something I had done in a session, which was play along with a tune that was too fast for me, stopping and starting as I realized I couldn't keep up. I think I was afraid people would say "I hate when somebody does that, it's so annoying!!"---probably because I'm new to sessions and paranoid about doing the wrong thing.
The response has been much better than I feared and quite enlightening---it seems that most musicians have lots of empathy and patience because they remember what it's like when you're learning. That's good for me to know when I go out and play! And Pol said such a lovely thing; "...if the others are real musicians, they will find the beauty in what you play"---that has to be the best perspective on music I've ever heard.
So thanks everyone. I'll keep all of this in mind at my next session.
Heh, yes, but the irony is that so many people here derided a player they've never heard (your "very nice guy" on the banjo) for being an eejit speed monger or show pony. Why not find the beauty in what he played?
See, it works both ways. I thoroughly enjoy meandering through Poor But Happy at 53 as a slow reel, or Pol Ha'penny as an air. But I also find beauty in winging variations through Last Night's Fun at 140 bpm, never losing the pulse or lift.
I don't know if they were deriding my banjo player, Will (well, maybe some were)---I think the thread partially moved over to a popular subject, musical speed contests and the etiquette of speed in sessions.
Personally, my only problem with speed at the moment is when people accelerate tunes so that they end up being much faster than when they start. Not sure how to deal with this besides speeding up myself, which I can't always do. Maybe I should start extra slow so it ends up being the speed I want at the end!
If you start a tune, it's very poor manners for anyone else to speed it up. Best to stick to your own pace (a little more loudly so they can hear it), or stop and ask them to rein it in. I think this holds whether you're a beginner or have been playing the tunes for 50 years--it's just wrong for someone else to set the pace if they didn't start the tune.
Some people confuse speed with lift and pulse. A good player can give a tune lift and pulse no matter how slow or fast the pace. Don't let anyone ride roughshod over your sense of the tunes you start.
Many times the people who speed up aren’t doing it intentionally, as might be the case with Kennedy’s banjo player. It could just be a lack of experience combined with nervousness... but of course I wasn't there so I have no idea. This possibility is based on my own observations.
I've studied the phenomenon of people speeding up at our sessions and noticed that it isn't necessarily the more experienced players that do it. The more experienced players are actually more capable of holding on to a moderate tempo and can still give the tune "lift." Often the novices don't know what to do with the spaces between the beats and their nervousness will make them jump to the next beat. This usually careens out of control and the tune ends up going faster than the people playing can handle. If a tune speeds up on account of this I generally lose interest and drop out. On the other hand, if a tune is speeding up intentionally with all of the pulses nicely accounted for and everyone in agreement -- I'm more inspired. But this sort of speed is something I only enjoy on occasion in a session. Most of the time I like to sink my teeth into the tunes without pushing the tempo.
This is funny, I keep having to defend the banjo player (poor guy!). He didn't speed up my tune, he started his own at a pace that he liked.
You're right, though, Phantom, in my experience so far, it's the less-experienced players who speed up the tunes. Very hard to fight it when it's happening, though. I can't exactly stick to my own pace because then I'm not playing with the group. I can't tell yet if it's just some tunes that everyone has a tendency to speed up, or some players who have a tendency to do it, or both. Will need a few more months of sessions to figure this out. (and by then I hope to have better control over the speed problem anyway...)
In the case Kennedy describes above, her banjo player didn't speed up. He started a tune at his own pace and kept it, and Kennedy (a relative newcomer to fiddle and sessions) tried to latch on but found it too fast for her.
Despite this thread's slant against speed demons, Kennedy's question was actually about knowing when you're disrupting a session by trying to play above your own ability and failing. Less about speed and more about not being able to play up to session speed (whatever that happens to be in the given situation).
Over the years, I've noticed that some people tend to speed up on the higher pitched parts of tunes (often B parts). Some people also speed up on the tricky bits of tunes--due to nervous tension, or maybe in hopes of getting through the trouble spot more quickly.
Typically a tendendcy of less experienced players. If a whole session does this, you may want to invite a veteran player with a steady beat to sit in and anchor the tempo. Or just keep calling it to people's attention (as a group, rather than singling out individuals) until they see the light. Or find another session.
I have observed that the true speed demon is never really a session regular, they come, they hit, they disappear and may come back a few months later. Strangely enough they are exceptionally good players with exceptionally bad manners and no consideration for others.
As for speed, personally I dont mind speed if thats the nature of the tune, its when tune essence has been lost to tune speed that it bothers me.
There are so many exceptionally talented players out there who can play the music, but they dont understand or feel the music, they miss the nuances, humour and in-jokes, the sadness and the tribulations, they just hear and feel a tune. They cant grasp the concept of a story behind every tune and an emotion to match it.
There is nothing wrong with speed its speed deliberately set to show up the weaknesses of others thats an issue.
We all had a good laugh at the weekend when I was sitting with a friend who is a much better player than me, but we were playing sweetly and slowly together for a good spell until he took off on a fingerbusting reel, that I had learned from him and was anxious to show him I had now learned it, he increased the speed until I was sweating trying to keep up and then just lost it altogether
I know that's not what Joze is talking about but it can be funny at times.
Not that anyone on this thread has once advocated speed just for speed's sake.
All these posts denegrating people for playing too fast is a bit like putting people down for not taking care of their personal hygiene--is anyone actually arguing the point?
I'm with you, Michael. P.S. Zina says hello (she didn't hit you, did she?)
Speeding up the tempo unintentionally is usually accompanied with a rise in adrenalin. If your adrenalin is increasing you may not notice the effect. Others probably do.
Trying to keep up with other speedy musicians is very difficult. What works for me is once I'm sick of practicing a tune at what I call my pace I normally play along with a ceile band CD through one ear phone and eventually I pick the speed. I also feels that you are and can play along with other musicians/ instruments.
to play or not to play
to play or not to play
So there I am at last night's session, sitting next to a very nice guy who happens to be playing that fastest of all instruments, the banjo, and he kicks into one of the few tunes I know. Problem is, he's playing it faster than I can, so every time I try jumping in on a phrase, I can't keep up. At one point I managed the whole tune once through, but lost it again.
Now, the parts I played sounded okay, I hit the notes in tune and in order, but there was a lot of stopping and starting going on, and I started to wonder if maybe that was distracting to the other players around me. There were only a few of us on our end of the table so the players around me could hear me pretty clearly. How does it work in situations like this? Is it better not to play unless you can play the whole thing?
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by kennedy
Re: to play or not to play
Heh, wait till you sit in with some hotshot whistle player who launches into something at Warp 7. Banjo will never sound fast again....
If the session is fairly relaxed and friendly, I say it's fair game to try to hang on at or above your comfort speed. But as soon as you crash and burn, better to just drop out than try to get back on a galloping horse. The better players will sometimes play up tempo, expecting to lose the less experienced players. And they will likely want to hear themselves unadulterated.
On fiddle, you can play super quietly, so these sorts of attempts aren't so apparent to others in the circle. And the key to playing fast is to use very little bow. Better to practice both of these things in the privacy of your own home first.
In the beginning few years, you're much better off staying within comfortable tempos--speed will come. Pushing it too early can lead to bad habits.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
It's better not to play at all unless you can. I'd have said to the guy after he'd finnished, "Whoa ... do me a favour and play that a bit slower next time." If he refuses, he's an idiot.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by ...
Re: to play or not to play
Not so sure about the "better players will sometimes play up tempo, expecting to lose the less experienced players" Will.
The idiots who think they can play that fast will continue to do so, so nothing gained.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by ...
Re: to play or not to play
A proper musician will interpret the material (whatever it is) and play it in a way that brings out the beauty of the tune and enhance the ensemble.
People who see tune playing as a speed trial are not musicians.
A lot of people play an instrument, know all the tunes and their names and support ITM, but they are not musicians.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: to play or not to play
Yeah, a galloping horse, that's what session tunes feel like sometimes. In defense of the banjo player, he wasn't playing it *too* fast---faster than I would prefer, probably, but not at warp speed. I just couldn't keep up.
I had a feeling I should have just let it go after it felt too fast for me...I love this site, it's like a "Dear Abby" for Irish session musicians...
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by kennedy
Re: to play or not to play
Part of understanding Kennedy's situation is realizing that she's fairly new to fiddle, playing Irish music, and playing in sessions. In all likelihood, the banjo player was well within his comfort zone--just too fast for Kennedy.
And that's okay.
My advice was aimed at someone who's not 100 percent up to the upper end of normal session speeds.
I think it helps to practice playing fast, and to try to tag along (assuming the session is casual enough to accept that). Sometimes you can play better (or, in this case, faster) in a session than you would at home. No harm in trying unless your session mates toss you out the door for trying.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
"Dear Abby, dear Abby, I never had thought
That me and my girlfriend would ever get caught.
We were sitting in the backseat just shooting the breeze,
Her hair up in curlers, her pants at her knees...."
- John Prine
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
In our session we often will slow the tempo if it is requested.
I play whistle (slow or fast). All you have to do is ask.
Starting and stopping may be distracting but there must be techniques where you can make it work.
I play with a fiddler who tends to drop out at odd spots. It would not be so distracting - but it is the way she does it. Often she is at full volume & then stops rather suddenly. All the notes are there & on pitch but she could definitely use some volume technique.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: to play or not to play
A lot of the time it's a difference in perception of rhythm that makes a tune seem fast when in fact it's being played at a steady pace. Play the music for a few more years, get your next 500 or so tunes, and then give this some more thought. You'll probably find you'll be thinking either 1) I need to improve my technique so I can play faster, or 2) that guy needs to slow down - he's playing faster than his technique can support and he sounds sh*t. Don't know which it'll be, but probably the latter.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: to play or not to play
Naughty puddy tat!
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: to play or not to play
Our session plays at whatever tempo someone starts a tune--typically fairly slowly for newbies, at a healthier clip when we want to rollick through some reels. It's all good.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
At a lot of the sessions I play at it's the other way round - the newbies just want to play fast; the more experienced players want to play slower and relish the tunes.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: to play or not to play
I've often found that a tune I've practised fairly enough, to the point of believing I've "got it", is played way too fast for me when I next, or first, encounter it in a session. This is not to imply that the session playing is over-fast. It is more that while practising I can / do stop, slow down and repeat quite a lot, especially with the difficult bits, in a way one obviously can't in a session. If I cannot cope with the tune in a session, it's because I've assumed myself fluent in it when I haven't been.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by nicholas
Re: to play or not to play
Last thursday i played in a session. For 3 hours, with songs in between, we played sets. And the majority were played at a fast(ish) pace. But it was perfect. It had a great drive. I wish i had some sort of speed gauge system thingy to tell what pace it was.
I don't agree that experienced like to up the tempo. I know of a banjo player who'l make an obvious point of not playing along to blistering paced tunes. But u can be sure he's bucket loads of experience.
If the pace is wrong and uncomfortable, don't play along, there's no point in enduring rather than enjoying. If anyone asks why u didnt play, tell them the pace was not what suited you.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by copo24
Re: to play or not to play
Um, why be so quick to read into a post what isn't there? I never said experienced players *only* like to play fast. We do a lot of jigs and reels at a very relaxed lope, the better to explore the many possibilities they offer. But some of us are also capable of doing that at a fair clip--so we do. A whole night of reels played at 60 bpm isn't my idea of fun. Neither is a whole night of reels blasted out at 220 bpm. Variety is the spice girl of life....
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
As I've mentioned before, I play (fiddle) at a session that is 1) huge, and 2) *very* friendly. So when a tune in my repertoire comes up, I try to play it, even if I know I won't be able to play three rounds of it fluently and at speed. The other night, a newbie who was sitting next to me joined in on a reel, and commented afterward that she'd fouled it up entirely, playing out of tune, crossing strings sloppily, and playing any number of wrong notes. Despite the fact that I was sitting right next to her *and wasn't even playing that reel*, I couldn't tell. So that gives me confidence to play even when I can't keep up, though I certainly would behave (and have behaved) differently in a more intimate session. I do have a little orchestral mute that I slip on when we launch into a set that I'm not yet able to keep up with, mind you, and in my big session I can barely even hear myself playing when it's on.
Cheshire puddy tat, I'm intrigued by your comment about being able to play fiddle very quietly. The only (muteless) ways I know of to do that are by using less bow, or by decreasing pressure on the strings. It seems to me that doing either, at least for beginners like me and kennedy, is liable to build bad habits that we'd have to work doubly hard to break when we get to the point that we can play quickly *and* competently. (I'm sure it's no coincidence that for the better part of a year, I'd been trying to get tunes up to speed well before I was ready, *and* my teacher kept having to tell me that I needed to apply more pressure when bowing. When I play faster than I'm comfortable, I find myself just grazing over the strings.)
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: to play or not to play
Gotta run to lunch, so I'll post a more detailed answer in a while. But yes, using less bow and unweighting the stick are the two main ways to play with less volume. It also helps to play with the bow closer to the end of the fingerboard.
These aren't "bad" habits--actually good ones. Far better to learn how to produce a strong clear tone with less bow and weight than simply relying on bow speed and "pressure." I haven't found an instrument yet that's easier to play quietly and well than loudly on. Getting control over your bow to play quietly is a great way to gain bow control in general.
Think of it this way--anyone can make a string vibrate by leaning on the bow--even someone who's never played a fiddle before. The key is to be able to draw tone out of the string without so much weight or speed. Lots of great Irish fiddlers are short-bow players (think John Carty, Martin Hayes) and even the longer bow players can crank out great sound with itty bitty, light bow strokes.
Like anything else, it takes practice.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
Cheshire, that's fair - it's certainly useful to be able to achieve good tone with less pressure and less bow. But, as you say, it's harder to play *well* that way, than it is to play well with pressure and higher bow speed. But when I (and possibly kennedy, and certainly any number of beginners) am having trouble playing quickly, and choose to play quietly, then we're probably not playing terribly well, either ;) . In other words - while playing with less pressure and less bow are good skills to learn, they only become good habits to get into when they're practiced with the purpose of achieving good tone in the process. And there's a huge difference between practicing with less pressure and less bow while paying close attention to tone, and session-playing with less pressure and less bow in a race to get through a tune that one can't even play with more of both. If the latter is going to be the context in which I'm using less pressure/using less bow/playing closer to the fingerboard, then I'm not developing good habits - I'm playing in a certain way in order to be inconspicuous *when playing badly*. On the other hand, if I'm practicing using less pressure/using less bow/playing closer to the fingerboard in such a way that I'm attaining good tone in the process, then presumably I've already mastered playing *loudly* with good tone (which is easier), in which case I'm not going to be playing quietly at the session!
(Gah, did that make any sense at all? I won't tell you how long it took me to write that paragraph. Maybe it's time for me to have lunch, too.)
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: to play or not to play
From my experience of trying strings, mandolin, banjo, I found that as I struggled I increased speed, and ended up playing tunes at breakneck speed, and then hitting the wrong notes. So when I hear someone speeding up, I reckon they are losing the tune and panicking.
Bit like driving a car, especially for learners. Any eejit can drive fast, it's the slow bits, parking, 3 point turn, reverse parking, that catch you out.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: to play or not to play
Dear ITM Abby-
As one who who is accused of playing fast-and readily acknowledging the character flaw- I have been a student of the problem.
Two types of player chronically do it.
1. Folks like me. My more patient experienced freinds will remind me to practice like I should play-moderate.
2. Arrogant players who think they are better than everyone else, or don't like to hear others at the expense of their obviously gifted talents. Those leave you in the dust, don't follow the subtle cues in the group for where the music is going and then crab alot. With them, it's best to sometimes pull out. Even if you practice, they will find another ploy (adding bars to the ends of turns, starting early on the count, things like that and ignoring everyone else)
Sorry to kvetch. i work once in a while with several prima donnas.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by zippydw
Re: to play or not to play
I find that often happens where the session is clicky, and they all know each other's tunes and to hell with everybody else. If you could sing a song and get a chance to do so, sing The Band Played Waltzing Matilda' that will teach them, or suggest that you play a slow air on your instrument. Play it about three or four times, then excuse yourself by saying that you have another session to go to.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Free Reed
Re: to play or not to play
The issue is not necessarily fast or slow: it is, do you like to play in that way? do you feel comfortable playing at that speed? Do you feel you can express something that you enjoy?
If you don't, then don't let yourself be put under pressure. You might feel forced to play, in a way that you are not happy with, not play as well as you would ordinarily and then be unhappy. There's no point. Just sit this one out, there's loads of other chances.
If you don't like it, don't do it
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Pól
Re: to play or not to play
Hmmm. I think some of you are missing the point posed by Kennedy. She wanted to try to play along with the banjo player, who was not being an eejit, was not playing too fast for his own abilities, was not trying to exclude anyone.
"Fast" is a relative term. One person's "breakneck speed" is another's plod. Just because someone plays faster than you prefer or feel comfortable playing doesn't make them an elitist, unmusical, an eejit, or a prima donna. Kennedy's made it clear that the banjo player in question wasn't doing any of these things--it was *herself* that was uncomfortable with the speed. Given that she's a relative newcomer to fiddle and sessions, it might not have even been all that fast a tempo. Her question has more to do with the etiquette of tagging along even if you can't really keep up. She wasn't pressured to do this--she simply wanted to try, but worried that it bothered others.
To which I'd reply: Ask them, not us. And practice at home whatever gives you trouble in the session. Persevere and be patient--all things come in their own time.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
Well said, Pol, and CPT, as was much of the more polite and helpful entries above.
The point should be having a good time, no? If a session is a social occasion among friends (some are, some, sadly, are not), then there should be room for all who come to share the music.
If the pace of the music is a bit fast for you as a newbie (or the tune is strange to you), good manners would state that you would not want to ruin things for the rest of your friends by forcing the issue. Also, if they are aware of your situation, they could, as friends in music, likely get around to tunes at everyone's current level and experience.
If we are supporting each other's love of this music, it is a two-way street. The experts should remember how it was when they were beginners and show a bit of charity, even if it means playing Harvest Home or the Kesh Jig more than twice a night for the newcomers sake, or even playing everyone's favorite "firewagon" reel at a moderate tempo once in a while.
And Kennedy, good on you -- many I have met would simply forge ahead at their pleasure, not considering whether they were upsetting their fellow sessioneers.
Only IMHOs.
Cheers, everyone.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Piece
Re: to play or not to play
A further, brief thought is: this is a means of expression, the purpose is to communicate what you want to say. It is likely you will do this best at a pace and in a form in which you feel comfortable. In your session, if the others are real musicians, they will find the beauty in what you play
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Pól
Re: to play or not to play
I wouldn't say the banjo is the "fastest of instruments"
It's actually quite hard to play fast as you have to finger and pick every note, while moving both hands' positions, unlike some of those wind instruments where you just blow while wiggling your fingers a bit.
Don't be shy about saying that it was too fast for you. It's not a criticism of the faster musician. You don't have to join in every tune and I can think of plenty of musicians who would remember your comment and try to play a bit slower next time so that you can join in.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Bren
Re: to play or not to play
The session I get to occasion is very friendly and open. One thing I've not heard yet is for someone like Kennedy to ask afterwards, "Can we do two more rounds just a bit slower? I think I got it." I don't think that would get much of an argument and have seen it done.
I realize this has to be done sparingly, but if you are being polite and respectful, I think everyone will be glad to work with new players, within reason.
Your thoughts?
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by nofrets
Re: to play or not to play
I'm a rather experienced player who is not afraid to ask for a few more rounds of something at a slower speed. No shame in that, and you can get some good tunes.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by reenactor
Re: to play or not to play
At one of my regular sessions we try to encourage all players, experienced or new, to ask for a few more rounds at a slower tempo whenever one feels the need. It seems to be good for everyone in the session. I know those particular tunes do improve. Good to hear some people here are doing the same. It is never really a question of who is slow or fast. If you know what I mean.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by ain't fluffed
Re: to play or not to play
I have come across one of these from time to time, someone who likes to play so fast that no one else can keep up...ever. When asked to play slower they either play so slowly implying that everyone else is an idiot or they wind it back up ignoring the timing of the majority. I usually pack up at this point and dont bother until they go away. My personal name for them is show ponies, all flash, some dash and no concept of anything other than their own spittle and shine.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Joze
Re: to play or not to play
This thread has been an interesting one. I am wondering though what you folks would define "breakneck" speed to be? 130-140 bpm on reels for example is that breakneck? Faster?
In my neck of the woods we have several regular sessions (with very few pariah intrusions) including the moderately paced (say 110 bpm or so on reels) CCE sessions, a weekly fast session lead by the "heavy hitters" where it's considertaley faster (around 124 on lively reels) and players are encouraged to push themselves and a weekly "slow" session where tunes are started very slowly and built up to moderate speed (say 100-110 bpm on reels).
I wouldn't say any of the regular player at the fast session are "show ponies" or show offs, many are from Ireland and the regulars are the best players around. This session gives them a chance to play faster. They are an accomodating bunch when it comes to players who are more compfortable with moderate tempos, but for the most part if you can't hang with them you get left behind. Bottom line is you aren't up to that speed your going to have more fun at the slower sessions until you gain experience.
In my opinion every regular session has it's own culture as dictated by the leaders and regulars. It's no more appropriate to feel negative towards fast players who's territory you are in then it is for the fast players to deliberatly play over everyones head at a slow or moderate paced session. I think one should have the good sence to go with the flow so to speak. Unfortunately that's not always the case.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Chef Paul
Re: to play or not to play
"Slow" Session may be a bit of a misnomer. Seems there are basically two types of session; Those where you learn new tunes & Those where you play - with some crossover between these.
The 1st goal of a "slow" session is to learn. New tunes may be introduced at a slow tempo. But the goal is to develop speed over several sessions. Hence one can play 'known' tunes up to speed in these sessions. BTW - the purpose is to learn; so do that w/ or w/out sheet music & then leave the sheet music at home.
Oh yes, & it is possible to learn a tune played at tempo for those who are able.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Ben Steen
Re: to play or not to play
The main reason I wanted to start this thread was to hear people's reactions to something I had done in a session, which was play along with a tune that was too fast for me, stopping and starting as I realized I couldn't keep up. I think I was afraid people would say "I hate when somebody does that, it's so annoying!!"---probably because I'm new to sessions and paranoid about doing the wrong thing.
The response has been much better than I feared and quite enlightening---it seems that most musicians have lots of empathy and patience because they remember what it's like when you're learning. That's good for me to know when I go out and play! And Pol said such a lovely thing; "...if the others are real musicians, they will find the beauty in what you play"---that has to be the best perspective on music I've ever heard.
So thanks everyone. I'll keep all of this in mind at my next session.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by kennedy
Re: to play or not to play
Heh, yes, but the irony is that so many people here derided a player they've never heard (your "very nice guy" on the banjo) for being an eejit speed monger or show pony. Why not find the beauty in what he played?
See, it works both ways. I thoroughly enjoy meandering through Poor But Happy at 53 as a slow reel, or Pol Ha'penny as an air. But I also find beauty in winging variations through Last Night's Fun at 140 bpm, never losing the pulse or lift.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
I don't know if they were deriding my banjo player, Will (well, maybe some were)---I think the thread partially moved over to a popular subject, musical speed contests and the etiquette of speed in sessions.
Personally, my only problem with speed at the moment is when people accelerate tunes so that they end up being much faster than when they start. Not sure how to deal with this besides speeding up myself, which I can't always do. Maybe I should start extra slow so it ends up being the speed I want at the end!
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by kennedy
Re: to play or not to play
If you start a tune, it's very poor manners for anyone else to speed it up. Best to stick to your own pace (a little more loudly so they can hear it), or stop and ask them to rein it in. I think this holds whether you're a beginner or have been playing the tunes for 50 years--it's just wrong for someone else to set the pace if they didn't start the tune.
Some people confuse speed with lift and pulse. A good player can give a tune lift and pulse no matter how slow or fast the pace. Don't let anyone ride roughshod over your sense of the tunes you start.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
This reminds me of the old joke:
What's the difference between a bodhran player and a drum machine?
You only have to punch the rhythm into the drum machine once.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
Many times the people who speed up aren’t doing it intentionally, as might be the case with Kennedy’s banjo player. It could just be a lack of experience combined with nervousness... but of course I wasn't there so I have no idea. This possibility is based on my own observations.
I've studied the phenomenon of people speeding up at our sessions and noticed that it isn't necessarily the more experienced players that do it. The more experienced players are actually more capable of holding on to a moderate tempo and can still give the tune "lift." Often the novices don't know what to do with the spaces between the beats and their nervousness will make them jump to the next beat. This usually careens out of control and the tune ends up going faster than the people playing can handle. If a tune speeds up on account of this I generally lose interest and drop out. On the other hand, if a tune is speeding up intentionally with all of the pulses nicely accounted for and everyone in agreement -- I'm more inspired. But this sort of speed is something I only enjoy on occasion in a session. Most of the time I like to sink my teeth into the tunes without pushing the tempo.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Phantom Button
Re: to play or not to play
This is funny, I keep having to defend the banjo player (poor guy!). He didn't speed up my tune, he started his own at a pace that he liked.
You're right, though, Phantom, in my experience so far, it's the less-experienced players who speed up the tunes. Very hard to fight it when it's happening, though. I can't exactly stick to my own pace because then I'm not playing with the group. I can't tell yet if it's just some tunes that everyone has a tendency to speed up, or some players who have a tendency to do it, or both. Will need a few more months of sessions to figure this out. (and by then I hope to have better control over the speed problem anyway...)
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by kennedy
Re: to play or not to play
In the case Kennedy describes above, her banjo player didn't speed up. He started a tune at his own pace and kept it, and Kennedy (a relative newcomer to fiddle and sessions) tried to latch on but found it too fast for her.
Despite this thread's slant against speed demons, Kennedy's question was actually about knowing when you're disrupting a session by trying to play above your own ability and failing. Less about speed and more about not being able to play up to session speed (whatever that happens to be in the given situation).
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
Cross posted.
Over the years, I've noticed that some people tend to speed up on the higher pitched parts of tunes (often B parts). Some people also speed up on the tricky bits of tunes--due to nervous tension, or maybe in hopes of getting through the trouble spot more quickly.
Typically a tendendcy of less experienced players. If a whole session does this, you may want to invite a veteran player with a steady beat to sit in and anchor the tempo. Or just keep calling it to people's attention (as a group, rather than singling out individuals) until they see the light. Or find another session.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
I have observed that the true speed demon is never really a session regular, they come, they hit, they disappear and may come back a few months later. Strangely enough they are exceptionally good players with exceptionally bad manners and no consideration for others.
As for speed, personally I dont mind speed if thats the nature of the tune, its when tune essence has been lost to tune speed that it bothers me.
There are so many exceptionally talented players out there who can play the music, but they dont understand or feel the music, they miss the nuances, humour and in-jokes, the sadness and the tribulations, they just hear and feel a tune. They cant grasp the concept of a story behind every tune and an emotion to match it.
There is nothing wrong with speed its speed deliberately set to show up the weaknesses of others thats an issue.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Joze
Re: to play or not to play
I don't undersatnd that ... I'd say that a decent definition of hearing and feeling the music is not missing the nuances, humour and in-jokes etc.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by ...
Re: to play or not to play
We all had a good laugh at the weekend when I was sitting with a friend who is a much better player than me, but we were playing sweetly and slowly together for a good spell until he took off on a fingerbusting reel, that I had learned from him and was anxious to show him I had now learned it, he increased the speed until I was sweating trying to keep up and then just lost it altogether
I know that's not what Joze is talking about but it can be funny at times.
# Posted on July 13th 2007 by Bren
Re: to play or not to play
Not that anyone on this thread has once advocated speed just for speed's sake.
All these posts denegrating people for playing too fast is a bit like putting people down for not taking care of their personal hygiene--is anyone actually arguing the point?
I'm with you, Michael. P.S. Zina says hello (she didn't hit you, did she?)
# Posted on July 13th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: to play or not to play
Speeding up the tempo unintentionally is usually accompanied with a rise in adrenalin. If your adrenalin is increasing you may not notice the effect. Others probably do.
# Posted on July 13th 2007 by ain't fluffed
Re: to play or not to play
"If a tune speeds up on account of this I generally lose interest and drop out."
Well, I generally try to put in some unexpected event whether it is speed up or something else. If we do not we lose our youthfulness.
I look 'em in the eye when I speed up.
-dogma
# Posted on July 16th 2007 by dogmageek
Re: to play or not to play
Trying to keep up with other speedy musicians is very difficult. What works for me is once I'm sick of practicing a tune at what I call my pace I normally play along with a ceile band CD through one ear phone and eventually I pick the speed. I also feels that you are and can play along with other musicians/ instruments.
# Posted on July 22nd 2007 by Maire Mhor