This post is directly related to session music, but not just about our Celtic music as much as it’s about the general “world” of music -- so I hope you don’t mind if I ask:
“Do All Instruments Use Alternate Tunings or Just Stringed Instruments? Is This Practice Widely Pervasive?”
I play guitar in TRAD sessions, and would like to know if any "other" instruments use Alternate Tunings as pervasively as guitars do? At sessions, I've never seen any other instrument take time to retune, for example. But guitarists are constantly playing around with different tunings. Since so many musicians play more than one instrument, perhaps I can ask – excluding single key instruments, do mandolins, violins, accordions, violas, bass, pipes, whistles, flutes, cellos, banjos, trumpets, organs, saxophones, bassoons, xylophone, trombones, French horns, etc., all use alternate tunings?
I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a pianist retune the piano on stage. LOL
Would you retune a cello to play the Cello Suite differently?
Greg, in reply to your question about cello retuning,
Bach's 5th cello suite in C minor is usually played with CGDG tuning - the A string tuned down a whole tone. Without this retuning some of the chord work in the suite is very difficult or next to impossible. The CGDG tuning also improves the resonance of the instrument. It is thought that Bach originally wrote it for the lute, which has a tuning very similar to that of the classical guitar. In fact, the 5th cello suite is sometimes played, quite effectively, on the guitar. None of the other Bach cello suites needs non-standard tuning, but many cellists are of the opinion that the 6th suite benefits when played on a cello with an extra E string (one or two have been made). Bach is thought to have written the 6th suite for a 5-stringed cello-like instrument now lost. The Bach cello suites have been recorded by just about every cellist who has got on the international circuit, but the definitive recordings have got to be the recordings made by Casals in the 1920s and '30s - now on CD.
Another cello work which uses non-standard tuning is Kodaly's virtuoso sonata opus 8 for unaccompanied cello, which requires the two lower strings to be tuned down a half-tone, giving the tuning B-F#-D-A. The work is in Bmin and this tuning gives exceptionally fine resonance. Kodaly, interestingly, uses a folk-tune motifs in his opus 8, as he did in a lot of his music. Janos Starker has made possibly the definitive recording of this work.
Some instruments use a variety of tunings. Although they aren't generally used in Irish music there is a large number of 5-string banjo tunings. I think there about a hundred listed at the banjo-l web site. In old time sessions, though, only a handful tend to be used. Speaking of old time again, fiddlers use alternate tunings. AEAE (cross tuning) is probably the most prevalent but there are several others. In Irish music, bouzouki players may use one of several tunings but it's been my experience that they tend to stick to one. For instance I always use ADAD on my bouzouki but lots of people use GDAD and some use GDAE.
On my five string banjo, I use these (from 5th to 1st string).
gDGBD (standard G-tuning)
gDGCD (sawmill tuning, or mountain modal)
f#DF#AD (d-tuning)
aDF#AD (hi-5th d-tuning)
gCDGD (C-tuning)
gCGCD (double c-tuning)
aDFAD (D-minor tuning)
And sometimes I use a standard tuning, with the 5-th string tuned UP to C. It's great for playing in F in open tuning.
Just to name a few. I only use the ones besides standard G on a few tunes.
On mandolin, I always use standard GDAE without ever using a capo. I have seen some tune one of the high E's down to A, and sometimes to C.
On the guitar I only use two tunings. Standard EADGBE for all tunes, and "drop-D" DADGBE for hornpipes and reels in D. Gives a little more resonance on the chords.
I never retune my accordions. one is piano, one is two-row D/G and one is two-row in C/F.
As a broader-based answer to your question, you should know that equal temperment-- modern chromatic tuning best exemplified by keyboard instruments-- is a relatively recent convention, developed during the time of Bach (1685-1750). Before this mathematical method of dividing octaves into twelve equal half steps, fixed-pitch instruments like keyboards and fretted viols *did* have to retune their instruments during a gig, to correspond to the key of the piece to be performed. Chromatic instruments with tone holes (flute, oboe, bassoon), could adjust their overall pitch, and use certain alternate fingerings to make certain notes sound in tune in different tonalities. Trumpets, on the other hand, had no valves in those days, and could only play certain notes within the scale, depending on the range in which they were playing. They would be required to actually change to a different pitched instrument (actually a different length of tubing they attached to their instrument) in order to play the right sounding notes in any given key. Essentially, they needed to carry around twelve trumpets.
So, how does this relate to your question about other instruments using alternate tunings? With modern equal temperment being the norm (with certain exceptions), there is no need for alternate tunings for piano, chromatic harp, organ, etc. as all the notes are right there, laid out in front of them. Classically speaking, stringed instruments rarely use alternate tunings, except in the example cited above and other instances where the composer is looking for a desired effect (Mahler used a solo violin tuned up a step in his Fourth Symphony). We trumpeters are left with a catalog of music from the old days, where different instruments were required for each key; we choose between switching to a different pitched valved trumpet (they exist today in virtually every key for reasons too numerous to list), or simply transposing the notes on the page to correspond to the instrument the player chooses to use (whew!)
There are also alternate instruments in use today pitched differently from their better-known counterparts: Alto flute (G), English Horn (F), E-flat clarinet, etc. That's the extent of "alternate tunings" for wind instruments, although many experimental instruments have been designed with goofy tunings, like a quarter-step flute I heard recently. Yech.
As a guitarist, I play in dropped D exclusively, only because that seems to work best-- for me-- in trad music. There are probably as many tunings as there are players, with tunings generally developed in a manner befitting the type of music being played.
Hope this helps answer your question... I knew those two music degrees would come in handy someday!
Went to a teaching sesiun yesterday given by the group Bohola- my friend Kevin was delighted to be shown an alternate tuning for his Bouzuki. There are several different ones being used for this instrument.
Alternate tunings are definitely used by mandolin players. For example, on mine, the lowest-pitched string is a little below G, the next one is just a little above it; the next string is between C# and D, and the next one is pretty close to an E-flat...
I know a bunch of fiddle players who employ a similar approach, by the way.
LOL...nice MB...
Also TenorBanjo pluckers. GDAE is standard for Irish tuning, but some play in Tenor Jazz Tuning CGDA - also kranking the C up to D giving you DGDA for nice drone effect and ease of chords higher up the neck.I think Bb set of pipes is great too!
I guess your info validates what I feel so many times.
Frustration.
I've been a guitarist for along time. I guess I just wanted to be sure that the world of music is as chaotic as it is structured, because I sure feel the chaos quite often..
I have a book that states "so and so tuned this way for this song, and so and so tuned that way for that song."
When I hear a good song, and I sit down and try to accompany it, even off the radio or one of my CD's, since I play almost universally in Standard Tuning, many times I am way out of the ball park -- so I give up in frustration.
Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
Dear members,
This post is directly related to session music, but not just about our Celtic music as much as it’s about the general “world” of music -- so I hope you don’t mind if I ask:
“Do All Instruments Use Alternate Tunings or Just Stringed Instruments? Is This Practice Widely Pervasive?”
I play guitar in TRAD sessions, and would like to know if any "other" instruments use Alternate Tunings as pervasively as guitars do? At sessions, I've never seen any other instrument take time to retune, for example. But guitarists are constantly playing around with different tunings. Since so many musicians play more than one instrument, perhaps I can ask – excluding single key instruments, do mandolins, violins, accordions, violas, bass, pipes, whistles, flutes, cellos, banjos, trumpets, organs, saxophones, bassoons, xylophone, trombones, French horns, etc., all use alternate tunings?
I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a pianist retune the piano on stage. LOL
Would you retune a cello to play the Cello Suite differently?
Really curious about this.
Thank you!
Greg
# Posted on February 23rd 2003 by Greg
Re: Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
Greg, in reply to your question about cello retuning,
Bach's 5th cello suite in C minor is usually played with CGDG tuning - the A string tuned down a whole tone. Without this retuning some of the chord work in the suite is very difficult or next to impossible. The CGDG tuning also improves the resonance of the instrument. It is thought that Bach originally wrote it for the lute, which has a tuning very similar to that of the classical guitar. In fact, the 5th cello suite is sometimes played, quite effectively, on the guitar. None of the other Bach cello suites needs non-standard tuning, but many cellists are of the opinion that the 6th suite benefits when played on a cello with an extra E string (one or two have been made). Bach is thought to have written the 6th suite for a 5-stringed cello-like instrument now lost. The Bach cello suites have been recorded by just about every cellist who has got on the international circuit, but the definitive recordings have got to be the recordings made by Casals in the 1920s and '30s - now on CD.
Another cello work which uses non-standard tuning is Kodaly's virtuoso sonata opus 8 for unaccompanied cello, which requires the two lower strings to be tuned down a half-tone, giving the tuning B-F#-D-A. The work is in Bmin and this tuning gives exceptionally fine resonance. Kodaly, interestingly, uses a folk-tune motifs in his opus 8, as he did in a lot of his music. Janos Starker has made possibly the definitive recording of this work.
# Posted on February 23rd 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
Some instruments use a variety of tunings. Although they aren't generally used in Irish music there is a large number of 5-string banjo tunings. I think there about a hundred listed at the banjo-l web site. In old time sessions, though, only a handful tend to be used. Speaking of old time again, fiddlers use alternate tunings. AEAE (cross tuning) is probably the most prevalent but there are several others. In Irish music, bouzouki players may use one of several tunings but it's been my experience that they tend to stick to one. For instance I always use ADAD on my bouzouki but lots of people use GDAD and some use GDAE.
Steve
# Posted on February 23rd 2003 by SteveKendall
Re: Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
On my five string banjo, I use these (from 5th to 1st string).
gDGBD (standard G-tuning)
gDGCD (sawmill tuning, or mountain modal)
f#DF#AD (d-tuning)
aDF#AD (hi-5th d-tuning)
gCDGD (C-tuning)
gCGCD (double c-tuning)
aDFAD (D-minor tuning)
And sometimes I use a standard tuning, with the 5-th string tuned UP to C. It's great for playing in F in open tuning.
Just to name a few. I only use the ones besides standard G on a few tunes.
On mandolin, I always use standard GDAE without ever using a capo. I have seen some tune one of the high E's down to A, and sometimes to C.
On the guitar I only use two tunings. Standard EADGBE for all tunes, and "drop-D" DADGBE for hornpipes and reels in D. Gives a little more resonance on the chords.
I never retune my accordions. one is piano, one is two-row D/G and one is two-row in C/F.
# Posted on February 23rd 2003 by Larshansen
Re: Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
As a broader-based answer to your question, you should know that equal temperment-- modern chromatic tuning best exemplified by keyboard instruments-- is a relatively recent convention, developed during the time of Bach (1685-1750). Before this mathematical method of dividing octaves into twelve equal half steps, fixed-pitch instruments like keyboards and fretted viols *did* have to retune their instruments during a gig, to correspond to the key of the piece to be performed. Chromatic instruments with tone holes (flute, oboe, bassoon), could adjust their overall pitch, and use certain alternate fingerings to make certain notes sound in tune in different tonalities. Trumpets, on the other hand, had no valves in those days, and could only play certain notes within the scale, depending on the range in which they were playing. They would be required to actually change to a different pitched instrument (actually a different length of tubing they attached to their instrument) in order to play the right sounding notes in any given key. Essentially, they needed to carry around twelve trumpets.
So, how does this relate to your question about other instruments using alternate tunings? With modern equal temperment being the norm (with certain exceptions), there is no need for alternate tunings for piano, chromatic harp, organ, etc. as all the notes are right there, laid out in front of them. Classically speaking, stringed instruments rarely use alternate tunings, except in the example cited above and other instances where the composer is looking for a desired effect (Mahler used a solo violin tuned up a step in his Fourth Symphony). We trumpeters are left with a catalog of music from the old days, where different instruments were required for each key; we choose between switching to a different pitched valved trumpet (they exist today in virtually every key for reasons too numerous to list), or simply transposing the notes on the page to correspond to the instrument the player chooses to use (whew!)
There are also alternate instruments in use today pitched differently from their better-known counterparts: Alto flute (G), English Horn (F), E-flat clarinet, etc. That's the extent of "alternate tunings" for wind instruments, although many experimental instruments have been designed with goofy tunings, like a quarter-step flute I heard recently. Yech.
As a guitarist, I play in dropped D exclusively, only because that seems to work best-- for me-- in trad music. There are probably as many tunings as there are players, with tunings generally developed in a manner befitting the type of music being played.
Hope this helps answer your question... I knew those two music degrees would come in handy someday!
DK
# Posted on February 23rd 2003 by darinkelly
Re: Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
Went to a teaching sesiun yesterday given by the group Bohola- my friend Kevin was delighted to be shown an alternate tuning for his Bouzuki. There are several different ones being used for this instrument.
# Posted on February 23rd 2003 by Murph
Re: Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
Alternate tunings are definitely used by mandolin players. For example, on mine, the lowest-pitched string is a little below G, the next one is just a little above it; the next string is between C# and D, and the next one is pretty close to an E-flat...
I know a bunch of fiddle players who employ a similar approach, by the way.
---Michael B.
# Posted on February 23rd 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
LOL...nice MB...
Also TenorBanjo pluckers. GDAE is standard for Irish tuning, but some play in Tenor Jazz Tuning CGDA - also kranking the C up to D giving you DGDA for nice drone effect and ease of chords higher up the neck.I think Bb set of pipes is great too!
# Posted on February 23rd 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Are Alternate Tunings Only Used By Guitars?
Thank you all so much for the valuable info.
I guess your info validates what I feel so many times.
Frustration.
I've been a guitarist for along time. I guess I just wanted to be sure that the world of music is as chaotic as it is structured, because I sure feel the chaos quite often..
I have a book that states "so and so tuned this way for this song, and so and so tuned that way for that song."
When I hear a good song, and I sit down and try to accompany it, even off the radio or one of my CD's, since I play almost universally in Standard Tuning, many times I am way out of the ball park -- so I give up in frustration.
"Gee...another musical mystery" I lament.
Again, thanks for the information.
Greg
# Posted on February 24th 2003 by Greg