I read on a website a fiddler-turned-whistler's opinion that a jig should be played with a rhythm in which the first of 3 eighth notes should be slightly longer than the second, taking care not to overdo it (no dotted-eighth/sixteenths).
And I've heard this and agree that it sounds way cool, giving sort of a schwing to the rhythmic feel. But! I rarely hear anybody except fiddlers do this to a great extent. Many non-fiddlers get this kind of feel on passages with 2 repeated eighths like BEE dEE|BEE ADD|by tonguing the 2nd and 3rd eighths of a 3 eighth group, but not on passages where the notes move around more. Do fiddlers get this kind of feeling by using a special bow pattern? Are there any none-fiddlers here who like to get that sort of feeling on a jig over the entire jig? Are there fiddlers here who prefer a straight eighths feel?
Also I've noticed that some like to swing the eighths on a reel, sort of like a fast hornpipe. How common is that?
Every fiddler does it different, but even the smallest amount of 'swing' helps to accent the beat. I think the amount of swing helps to define the various styles. A sligo style fiddler that I know has a lot of swing in his jigs. When I try to do it, I get too much and the music sounds 'stilted', it doesn't flow.
After listening to Donegal style fiddler, Kevin Glackin, who uses a minimal amount of swing in his reels, I tried to play along with his recording, and found that I have way too much swing in my reels.
(I love Kevin's sound, and would like to assimilate a bit of his style.)
This is one of the aspects of my timing with which I am struggling.
I get variations in the amount of swing within a tune, even within phrases, and it causes an uneveness to the rhythm, really disrupts the flow of the tune. A few well placed variations help to define the phrasing, but when they are random, they make for some difficult listening. I can counteract it by adding more swing; but it gets sloppy if I don't take the tune a step slower.
Something that I sometimes get, especially on slurs, is that the first of a pair might be shorter than the second, and it still puts an accent on the beat, sort of a strathspey sound in a reel or jig. It is fairly common among Canadian maritime fiddlers, but I haven't heard it anywhere else. I like the sound of it, but it 'throws' accompanists who aren't ready for it. It really doesn't fit into session playing.
I 'm a whistle player and I'm busy trying to put this kind of schwing into my jigs. I went to a workshop given by Mary Bergin, in June , and she suggests playing jigs with a ha-ta-ta ta-ha-ha style, where the 2nd and 3rd quavers are tongued, the 4th quaver is tongued and cut, and the last 2 quavers are just blown. This means the tune is not over-tongued, but has enough emphasis on the first of 3 quavers to give that 'jiggy' feel. It works.
Madonna, that is very interesting! I'm a whistler, too. I try to avoid tonguing the first or fourth (beat) eigth notes in a jig, because I have been trying to avoid sounding "classical." On passages like this A | FAA GBB | ADD ... (Tripping up the Stairs) I go for Slur-tongue-tongue slurr-tongue-tongue. When I do cut a not, I usually tongue it for emphasis unless I am cutting two same-pitch notes (EGcutGF... in reel or hornpipe). The amount of Schwing I use in jigs varies with the weather and I am not happy with my ability (inability) to create a bouncy, driving jig feeling. So I will definitely try Mary Bergin's suggestion. (If you say just blown, you mean not tongued, right? Not glottal stops or anything.)
If I may ask, how far along are you? I have only been playing for about a year and don't think I would dare take a Mary Bergin workshop, although I sure would like to...
Yes, that is interesting. I like to play whistle with very little tonguing, so I'd be interested if many can get that kind of schwing without tonguing.
It is true, some put in more schwing than others - and fiddlers tend to do it the most. Then again, I've heard some fiddlers going the other way, shortening the first and lengthening the sencond quaver in a group of three, tending towards (although not nearly as pronounced as) a Scotch snap. I think this sort of rhythmic variation arises partly from the type of physical motion involved in playing the fiddle - the small finger movements involved in playing an instrument such as the whistle do not lend themselves to any particular type of rhythm.
I don't think there are many traditional fiddlers who really play jigs "straight" - i.e. without any degree of unevenness in note lengths. Give the sheet music of a jig to a classical violinist and you'll hear the difference.
Scott, wait til you take more of the Scoiltrad classes with Kevin. It's funny, because sometimes he'll go into a swing when he's doing the slow version of the tunes. I'll have to ask him while he's in town in November whether that's because the slower tunes need more help to swing along, or whether he just does it out of habit or what. I'll let you know.
I recall to have read somewhere (only donīt know in which book) that Irish trad. musicians use to play the note they want to stress a little bit longer than the other ones. I canīt say I ever detected something like this in anybodyīs playing though I try to play like that.
I love to play reels with a swing but that usually ends with the rest of the company joining in when they donīt do it... And itīs a lot easier (for me) on a picked instrument like mandolin, cittern or flat-picked guitar than on the fiddle. But that probably comes from not practising enough...
I used to play a lot of bluegrass fiddle tunes on mandolin. Most of them (excepting the waltzes) are reels, even tunes coming from the auld sod as hornpipes were played as reels. And I used to play them with quite a bit of swing, because the group of guys I jammed with all did that. We also did a lot of acoustic string swing stuff, like Django Reinhart or Stephane Grapelli stuff.
Hi Bloomfield. Nice to talk to another whistler. (There seem to be a lot of fiddlers on this site).
To answer your questions... when I say 'just blown', yes I do just mean blow - no coughs, glottal stops, nothing from the throat.
I've been playing whistle for more years than I care to admit to. I'm self-taught which means I have loads of bad habits and I didn't start tonguing at all until I went to a Sean Ryan workshop about 2 years ago. I have to say the Mary Bergin workshop was the best ever. She spent so much time on technique, and when she writes out the tune, she marks in everything, tongues, cuts, rolls, breaths. I know some people like to plan these things themselves, but as someone with poor technique, I was glad to get it handed to me on a plate. If you ever get the chance to go to one of her workshops, please do go. She can cater for beginners, intermediates and advanceds. I wish I had gone to someone like her a few hundred years ago.....
And thanks for The Waterbed. Must go look for it now....
rhythm
rhythm
Hi all,
I read on a website a fiddler-turned-whistler's opinion that a jig should be played with a rhythm in which the first of 3 eighth notes should be slightly longer than the second, taking care not to overdo it (no dotted-eighth/sixteenths).
And I've heard this and agree that it sounds way cool, giving sort of a schwing to the rhythmic feel. But! I rarely hear anybody except fiddlers do this to a great extent. Many non-fiddlers get this kind of feel on passages with 2 repeated eighths like BEE dEE|BEE ADD|by tonguing the 2nd and 3rd eighths of a 3 eighth group, but not on passages where the notes move around more. Do fiddlers get this kind of feeling by using a special bow pattern? Are there any none-fiddlers here who like to get that sort of feeling on a jig over the entire jig? Are there fiddlers here who prefer a straight eighths feel?
Also I've noticed that some like to swing the eighths on a reel, sort of like a fast hornpipe. How common is that?
# Posted on October 14th 2001 by jomac
Re: rhythm
Every fiddler does it different, but even the smallest amount of 'swing' helps to accent the beat. I think the amount of swing helps to define the various styles. A sligo style fiddler that I know has a lot of swing in his jigs. When I try to do it, I get too much and the music sounds 'stilted', it doesn't flow.
After listening to Donegal style fiddler, Kevin Glackin, who uses a minimal amount of swing in his reels, I tried to play along with his recording, and found that I have way too much swing in my reels.
(I love Kevin's sound, and would like to assimilate a bit of his style.)
This is one of the aspects of my timing with which I am struggling.
I get variations in the amount of swing within a tune, even within phrases, and it causes an uneveness to the rhythm, really disrupts the flow of the tune. A few well placed variations help to define the phrasing, but when they are random, they make for some difficult listening. I can counteract it by adding more swing; but it gets sloppy if I don't take the tune a step slower.
Something that I sometimes get, especially on slurs, is that the first of a pair might be shorter than the second, and it still puts an accent on the beat, sort of a strathspey sound in a reel or jig. It is fairly common among Canadian maritime fiddlers, but I haven't heard it anywhere else. I like the sound of it, but it 'throws' accompanists who aren't ready for it. It really doesn't fit into session playing.
# Posted on October 14th 2001 by scottythefiddler
Re: rhythm
I 'm a whistle player and I'm busy trying to put this kind of schwing into my jigs. I went to a workshop given by Mary Bergin, in June , and she suggests playing jigs with a ha-ta-ta ta-ha-ha style, where the 2nd and 3rd quavers are tongued, the 4th quaver is tongued and cut, and the last 2 quavers are just blown. This means the tune is not over-tongued, but has enough emphasis on the first of 3 quavers to give that 'jiggy' feel. It works.
# Posted on October 14th 2001 by madonna
Re: rhythm
Madonna, that is very interesting! I'm a whistler, too. I try to avoid tonguing the first or fourth (beat) eigth notes in a jig, because I have been trying to avoid sounding "classical." On passages like this A | FAA GBB | ADD ... (Tripping up the Stairs) I go for Slur-tongue-tongue slurr-tongue-tongue. When I do cut a not, I usually tongue it for emphasis unless I am cutting two same-pitch notes (EGcutGF... in reel or hornpipe). The amount of Schwing I use in jigs varies with the weather and I am not happy with my ability (inability) to create a bouncy, driving jig feeling. So I will definitely try Mary Bergin's suggestion. (If you say just blown, you mean not tongued, right? Not glottal stops or anything.)
If I may ask, how far along are you? I have only been playing for about a year and don't think I would dare take a Mary Bergin workshop, although I sure would like to...
# Posted on October 15th 2001 by Bloomfield
Re: rhythm
Yes, that is interesting. I like to play whistle with very little tonguing, so I'd be interested if many can get that kind of schwing without tonguing.
# Posted on October 15th 2001 by jomac
Re: rhythm
It is true, some put in more schwing than others - and fiddlers tend to do it the most. Then again, I've heard some fiddlers going the other way, shortening the first and lengthening the sencond quaver in a group of three, tending towards (although not nearly as pronounced as) a Scotch snap. I think this sort of rhythmic variation arises partly from the type of physical motion involved in playing the fiddle - the small finger movements involved in playing an instrument such as the whistle do not lend themselves to any particular type of rhythm.
I don't think there are many traditional fiddlers who really play jigs "straight" - i.e. without any degree of unevenness in note lengths. Give the sheet music of a jig to a classical violinist and you'll hear the difference.
# Posted on October 15th 2001 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: rhythm
Scott, wait til you take more of the Scoiltrad classes with Kevin. It's funny, because sometimes he'll go into a swing when he's doing the slow version of the tunes. I'll have to ask him while he's in town in November whether that's because the slower tunes need more help to swing along, or whether he just does it out of habit or what. I'll let you know.
Zina
# Posted on October 15th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: rhythm
I recall to have read somewhere (only donīt know in which book) that Irish trad. musicians use to play the note they want to stress a little bit longer than the other ones. I canīt say I ever detected something like this in anybodyīs playing though I try to play like that.
I love to play reels with a swing but that usually ends with the rest of the company joining in when they donīt do it... And itīs a lot easier (for me) on a picked instrument like mandolin, cittern or flat-picked guitar than on the fiddle. But that probably comes from not practising enough...
# Posted on October 15th 2001 by Joerg Froese
Re: rhythm
I used to play a lot of bluegrass fiddle tunes on mandolin. Most of them (excepting the waltzes) are reels, even tunes coming from the auld sod as hornpipes were played as reels. And I used to play them with quite a bit of swing, because the group of guys I jammed with all did that. We also did a lot of acoustic string swing stuff, like Django Reinhart or Stephane Grapelli stuff.
# Posted on October 15th 2001 by jomac
Re: rhythm
Hi Bloomfield. Nice to talk to another whistler. (There seem to be a lot of fiddlers on this site).
To answer your questions... when I say 'just blown', yes I do just mean blow - no coughs, glottal stops, nothing from the throat.
I've been playing whistle for more years than I care to admit to. I'm self-taught which means I have loads of bad habits and I didn't start tonguing at all until I went to a Sean Ryan workshop about 2 years ago. I have to say the Mary Bergin workshop was the best ever. She spent so much time on technique, and when she writes out the tune, she marks in everything, tongues, cuts, rolls, breaths. I know some people like to plan these things themselves, but as someone with poor technique, I was glad to get it handed to me on a plate. If you ever get the chance to go to one of her workshops, please do go. She can cater for beginners, intermediates and advanceds. I wish I had gone to someone like her a few hundred years ago.....
And thanks for The Waterbed. Must go look for it now....
# Posted on October 15th 2001 by madonna