Is improvisation acceptable at sessions ?
Don`t know about you but I find it very distracting to have someone improvising on a melody instrument when everyone else is sticking to the tune ! In fact, I would go as far to say that it is very rude and shows a distinct lack of respect to the musicians who have taken the trouble to learn and practice a tune.
Is there a right and a wrong way to improvise ?
We have one `musician` at a session who refuses to learn any tunes on the grounds that he doesn`t need to because he can `improvise`, it`s like having a wasp buzzing in your ear !
I wouldn`t want to spoil our friendship by wrapping his mandolin around his head !
Is it possible to learn how to improvise properly ?
It's not quite the same as noodling as it's often done by players who could quite easily learn the tune. They might even know it already but either wish to show off or feel that they can "improve the melody". Of course, they might well get bored with a tune after a while but, in that case, why don't they "sit it out" and let the other players get on with it?
"Improvisation" is sometimes OK in actual JAM sessions, accompanying songs etc and is actually encouraged in by many participants in these situations. However, it's not generally welcome in traditional music sessions. The problem often arises when these "jammers" sit in on "tune sessions"
"I wouldn't want to spoil our friendship by wrapping his mandolin around his head!"
I thought that was what mandolins were for!
Seriously though, if someone is not learning the tunes because they can't be bothered and, instead want to just make it up on the fly then this is a hanging offence. Good musicians can 'improvise' a harmony line if they know the tune really well and know the rules for a harmony line. Even then there are some on this site that would frown on it. To just make some nonsense up as you go along though is inexcusable.
you may have given me a solution, The main session for all those who know or are learning the tune, followed by a good noodling session for an hour or so, sort of an egofest ! I will be long gone by the time the noodlers start `playing` of course.....everyone happy !
It's (jamming) a very annoying thing at trad sessions but fortunately it's very rare. I've only come across one instance of this with a fiddle player who jammed on any tune he didn't know; it was very disconcerting to hear rasping chords and random notes in your ear when you were trying to hear the rest of the musicians!
I know a banjo player who does this and it's extremely annoying. Thankfully he's also one of the quietest banjo players around.
Of course, sparse improvisation within the framework of the tune by someone who knows the tune is much more acceptable in my book.
"sparse improvisation within the framework of the tune"
"improvise a harmony line"
It seems to me that a little bit of improvisation done properly may be ok. "within the framework of the tune".........that`s the trick, on the odd occasion when he actually seems to stay pretty close to the tune, it does not sound too bad (still distracting) but more often he flies off in a completely different direction to the point it sounds like he is attempting to play an entirely different tune, none of it makes any sense at all.
(confusing myself now !)
BUT the question is how do you tell the feckers !
and is there a formula that would keep one within the framework of the tune ?
or maybe we could lock them all in a room together and only let them out if they promise to learn the bloody tunes !
I agree Conán. I've heard some great players improvise in ways that are brilliantly exciting with out imposing on the tune itself. Well at least not in my opinion anyway. Now this is quite different than someone simply noodling along in a structured way on a tune they don't know. So I think, as in all things, generalization is inefficient.
Every once in a while I have the great honor and pleasure of being in a session when a great Rockland/Orange/Westchester County, NY (I don't know where he lives) banjo player turns up. He has a way of turning a phrase completely inside out and backwards, whilst the rest of the melody players stay on the tune, and resolve right back into the tune perfectly. It's brilliant and exhilarating stuff to be sure.
My noodler doesn`t even do it with any kind of structure and he does it on the whistle and bodhran too, at least the mandolin is a bit quiter. he tells me it`s all about counterpointing ? whatever the hell that is, sounds bloody crap anyway.
How do you play a counterpoint melody on the bodhran? Do you mean he beats a different rhythm that "harmonises" with the actual rhythm?
I know some antastic players that can play harmony lines and it sounds fantastic. It is not something I would often try (at least deliberately!) because I am not confident I would get it right. One of the common harmony lines would be to play a third up from the melody (but not all the time) so when the tune has a D (and is oin say the key of D) you can play an F# and so forth. These are notes that harmonise. Doesn't sound like this is what your guy is doing though.
>Sparse improvisation within the framework of the tune by someone who knows the tune is much more acceptable in my book.
Yes of course Conan, but that really amounts to an individual players "interpretation" of the tune, where s/he might add some little ornament within a phrase. That's not only acceptable but is the very essence of giving life to the music. Just wish I could do it. Assuming we're talking about the same thing right enough.......
Not only does my guy mess about with the tempo on his bodhran, twangs away on his madolin bearing no relation to the tune at all, as he does on his whistles ! he actively encourages other newcomers to the tradition to do the same.
If anyone makes a negative remark about his `style` of playing he quotes counterpointing etc. and reminds everyone that he played in an irish band for twenty years and see`s himself as a `key player` in the northwest folk scene ! talk about up his own arse !
It is blantantly obvious to me when something sounds right or wrong, I don`t know about all the mathematics of music, only been playing for a couple of years, but I do know when it sounds right.
What if I was to record some tunes from our next session and post them on this site, and ask for the opinion of fellow musicians on how it sounds/could be improved etc ?
I love him dearly, a very old friend, but his playing is driving me insane.
If that's the case, I don't think it would be very nice to post a recording of his playing here. What if he looks in here? He might not remain a friend too long.
While we all sypathise with your predicament here, I'd advise you against giving away too much detail about this chap...especially if you regard him to be a friend.
It would be nice to hear other musicians views on how we sound collectively.
and he posted me on you tube without asking, check out tone and leo overture on you tube videos ( it had been a long day and too much beer !)
If he's such a good friend surely he could take it from you exactly what you think of what he's doing?
Isn't that what friendship should be about ? being honest and open with one another.
Is it yourself on the whistle Tony? Your "friend" isn't being very polite in the introduction. As John says, don't do anything that could ruin a friendship but at the same time I am curious about what he sounds like.
Oh I`ve tried everything, but with his `experience` and `knowledge` he will not listen, he reckons experienced musicians would not be put off by his style of improvisation.
yes he is a dear friend but in a musical situation he is never wrong.
Improvisation apart, I would be interested in others opinions of how we are doing so far with our sessions.
tony b, I feel your pain. It is tough to deal with a friend who is misguided, but deal with him you have to.
I played jazz for years, and no one would ever dream of improvising from one end of a tune to the other. You play the tune, play variations, and then at fixed times you allow people to improvise in solos. And then you come back to the melody at the end. Far more structured than constant noodling!
Even in Dixieland, where there is quite a bit of simultaneous improvising going on around the edges, someone always carries the melody, and most of the improvisations are built closely around that melody. So your friend who does not learn the tunes is using an approach that would not even work in jazz. I am afraid he is just masking laziness with a know-it-all attitude.
And from your subsequent post, he has no sense of rhythm and his improvisations are not even very musical--that is not improvisation at all.
I would suggest an 'intervention,' the whole group needs to give him their opinions all at once, since he seems dismissive of individual feedback.
I was typing a comment which got lost and then on returning I find that AlBrown has said what I was going to say only much more convincingly. It's not improvisation itself that is unacceptable, or there would be just one version of each tune where the dots are rendered unvaryingly and with metronomic precision.
Yes I know I need to deal with it, otherwise he may even discourage other musicians from joining us.
Funnily enough, he reckons he is very much influenced by jazz music, perhaps he`s going to the wrong sessions !
It`s something I need to deal with, trouble is we are all newcomers (hence the sheet music stand on the video clip) to ITM and he kinda pulls rank with his twenty years experience, very difficult indeed.
I do agree with you, SWFL, it's just that decoration could be said to have some aspects of improvisation so long as it is kept within the constraints of the genre. I think we all agree that free improvisation is something that should be taken elsewhere. The melody is king, as it is with some of the greatest jazz players (like the young Louis Armstrong)
There must be someone around your area with sufficient "weight" in traditional music terms to tell him to "pull his head in" as our Australian friends might say.
It sounds Iike he is wanting to be top dog amongst a bunch of folks just starting out in the music. He feels that, amongst your crowd, he can throw his weight about, whilst he probably wouldn't dream of doing it if he was in a session with more experienced players.
A new friend just joining us, who is a real and serious musician, takes direction very well and has improved so much. he is humble and very interested in doing it right. One doesn't need to beat around the bush. A very pleasant fellow - one of the people I look forward to seeing at sessions.
Another I refuse to sit next to. He throws me off. One time he was noodling along, just he and I. I decided I would improvise, too. I made my improvising sound more like a canary being eaten alive. We both stopped and stared at each other. I said "what was that?". He said he didn't know.
Sometimes I feel that some are "tune parasites". They feed off of those who have tried hard to learn tunes. Tune players sound good even when doing solos. These parasites are useless when they are not feeding on the rest.
The way Kant judged what is moral is to ask himself "what if everyone did it?". Well, what would happen if every one improvised wildly?
I work very hard on learning these tunes. Its not easy for me. It frosts me when folks think they can take these shortcuts.
Maybe I am wrong, but as we get better at this music, we play the melody and pulse more and more precisely. We don't graduate to improvising as we get better.
Personally, I agree with everybody about the melody players... learn and play the version of the tune everyone else is, with tasteful ornamentation. Now ( and here's where I hear wasps buzzing)... really GOOD harmonic accompanists are unlikely to play the same backup sequences time after time. There's tons of ways to play through two bars of Aminor, and if the brain is engaged and responding to the melody players (and the whole environment), it will change according to the situation. With a GOOD accompanist, you wouldn't notice improvisation, except in a postive way. By the way, a good backup player will also stick with something that works to elevate a piece, and use it in an arrangement. Is that still wasps I hear?
Where else do you get the morality of Kant when dealing with people who refuse to learn ITM and insist on 'jamming' at sessions?
Nice work feardearg.
...and you're right about the advancement as we get better. We don't improvise, we 'play the melody and pulse more precisely', spot on.
...and RichardB, you are correct, however even with improvised ornamentation there are rules to be followed in the genre, and from my take on this, the mandolinist seemed to have very little notion of any of that.
Here in the States, in Florida, da' Souf', we are overrun with Bluegrass types who think they can jam aimlessly along with Irish sessions, so perhaps it's my pet peeve and I'm a little sensitive about it, sorry folks.
i dont know what merit this comment may have... but--
there is a difference between variations, harmony, and improvisation. the last one has no place in traditional irish music.
tell your friend that counterpoint does NOT (always) mean improvised.... tell him to listen to beethoven and tell ask him if the orchestra improvised the counterpoint in there.
The semantics were starting to tangle me a bit with this thread. Variations in the ornamentation ARE improvisation, but probably not to be confused with taking liberties with the main gist of the tune. (If someone wrote a nice tune, it is polite to play some of it - or else just re-name what you are playing and have done with it.).
As others have said already on this thread, without a bit of latitude for personal expression, this whole ITM thing would be rather empty for many musicians.
As regards the original entry, re. the "master player" who likes to throw his weight around: What about common courtesy?
Is the session all about him, or are there other players with equal an right to enjoy themselves?
Also, how do the other regulars really feel about his playing?
I would not jump all over your mate, tony b, I have not met the man, but, really, how nice is someone behaving when they are in their own little world, and to heck with the rest of us?
If it feels right, as his friend tell him. Be kind.
So,I guess there's no room for
Johnny Doran
Cathal Hayen
Gerry O'Connor
Colin Farrell
Mike McGoldrick
Tommy Potts
Mick McAuley
Oisin McAuley
Frankie Gavin
Darren Maloney
(I could go on)
All improvisers in there own right.
The art of improviation within traditional music has always been there,although it's a very dangerous area if you don't know what you're doing.
The tunes must be learned and it doesn't fit every situation.
Variation(if not confined to exact variations every time)is improvisation.
It's usually applied very lightly and doesn't last long enough to disrupt the music.
Constant noodlers(as they might be called)are hard to tolerate and it usually demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the music but for those who know what they're at it's a different ball game and every bit as serious and can take a long time to master,although some situations may require less diversion from the tune than others.
In order to improvise on a tune there must be a very good working knowledge of rhythm and harmony there already,plus a sensitivity to your musical surroundings and sometimes the poor people who can't stomach any deviation from the melody if in that situation.
So,I would honestly tell your mandolin player to not play with you any more if he's doing what I think he is,which is pretty much farting around on his instrument,and not what I would call proficient improvisation.
What do you think gtr and bouzouki players do,play the tune?
(this is a huge area of discussion and I haven't got the time to noodle around this any more)
You can only resolve this at the source. Every session is different. In your session the group decides which rules apply & which to ignore. From your description the session needs limits on improvisation.
Let's assume your friend is doing a good job at improvising but most of the group gets distracted. Would you consider yours a 'slow session'? (BTW this is not a derogatory term)
That is to say most are new to ITM, many of the tunes are being learned, & sheet music is OK.
Under those circumstances improvisation is definitely out of place. Anyone who wants to try it should set up a session with your mandolin friend.
(the opinion of 15 musicians from all over the UK and America, with probably over 100 years collective experience of playing in bands and at sessions with a multitude of instruments)
is thus;
NO !!!!!!!!!
Improvisation at ITM sessions is not welcome and could even be a hanging offense !
Johnny J (mandolin/fiddle)
says it is often done to try and "show off" because they feel they "can improve the melody" and mentions the "jammers" who spoil "tune sessions".
Bannerman (fiddle)
Sympathises and agrees that this type of improvisation is really just "jamming"
No cause for alarm (guitar/whistles/bouzouki)
says to make some nonesense up as you go along should be a hanging offense, whilst some GOOD musicians can "improvise" a harmony line IF they know the tune and the "rules for a harmony line"
Cona`n McDonnel (piano accordian/bodhran/harmonica)
A musician with 24 years experience, finds improvisation extremely annoying, whilst SPARSE improvisation "within the framework of the tune" by someone who KNOWS the tune may be ok.
Ejsant (bodhran/guitar)
Does point out that IF done properly, it can sound brilliant.
Key maniac lad
agrees that a little ORNAMENTATION within a phrase can give life to a tune. but improvisation, apart from sounding sh!!e is just a cop-out from learning the tune.
Haggihunter
Brief and to the point, says pretty much the same, if you can`t do it - don`t do it ! especially with melody instruments, and mentions the courtesy issue.
Al Brown (mostly guitar)
says that this type of improvisation would not work in other types of music including jazz, and again stresses the importance of the melody.
Richard B (mandolin/guitar/harmonica/fiddle)
a musician with several decades experience ! agrees that melody is king.
Drone (guitar/fiddle)
also agrees that the melody is what`s important and mentions that you would not notice good improvisation, except in a positive way.
swfl fiddler (fiddle/banjo)
does not mix his words and simply states there is no place for improvisation in ITM
a sentiment that is shared by
Daiv (concertina/whistle/flute)
and Rook
Tonya also agrees that improvisation would be out of place at slow sessions.
Feardearg (guitar/whistle)
obviously has no time for improvisers or "tune parasites" and asks what if everyone did it !
he also makes a very good point that I had not thought of, I`ll come back to that later.
P.Browne
suggests that the tunes must first be learned and makes the point that any variation should be lightly applied and not last long enough to disrupt the tune.
a good point feardearg made was that as we get better at this music, we play the melody and pulse more precisely - we don`t graduate to improvisation.
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So there we have it !
improvisation in ITM, and other types of music, is not welcome by both new and experienced musicians, unless MAYBE done very tastefully, quietly, for only short periods, by someone who really knows what they are doing, and done in a courtious manner that does not in any way disrupt the melody.
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I would like to thank all of the above for all the opinions, I know what I need to do !
Thanks again,
Tony
p.s.
anyone got any thoughts on the myspace clip of Leo and I ?
I think what I said was that doing what your friend is apparently doing is not right. The impression coming across generally seems to be that someone playing a harmony line or a properly constructed counterpoint to the melody is not wanted either. I can't agree with that. I know some fantastic musicians who will play around with a tune and add a harmony line in and this can be very welcome. It is just that does not appear to be what your friend is doing.
Tony B you made up your mind before you ever posted.
Now you are trying to use the opinions of people on a blog
to leverage your position in a session. Once again,' You can only resolve this at the source." A session is worthless if you cannot work these things out in that session!
BTW if improvisation did not play a part in traditional music we would all be playing Brian Boru's ad infinitum; ad nauseam.
Hi Tony I sympathise with your situation, but I'm not really qualified to be putting my oar in.
As for your playing you've really got the tune down fine. Remembering how many times you have played a part can be difficult for anyone after a few beers!
The only thing missing is perhaps some ornamentation but that will come the more you listen to other players (recorded and live if possible) and the more you practice. If you can find a local mentor who plays in a style you like, try and get in there and get some lessons or pointers. There are also some online sites that give incite into the methods of ornamentation, which I have found very helpful. A nice one for help with tunes is' www.tradlessons.com.'
Good Luck with your present predicament and keep whistling you're doing great !
Even I know the difference between harmony and just outright improvisation throughout the whole tune, the latter being what my friend is doing. Cheers guys.
Tonya, If I knew what I was talking about and exactly what to do about it I would not have posted it on this site, you`re way off the mark I`m afraid, and as for using the opinions of others to leverage my position at a session............That`s the biggest load of crap I`ve heard for a long long time, sorry ! everyone else appears to have got it...........is this not a discussions page ? a place for relative newbies like me to ask opinions and advice of others ? whom, it turns out have almost all had the same problem at one time or another. and for the record, improvisation sounds crap to me !
Flossie
Thanks for the great advice (and encouragement !)
Tony. I know who you're talking about. He's seen me play Mandolin once when I visited a session casually with a mutual friend (who you also know) just for a listen, and a pint. I was asked to play, so I just did one set of jigs. O.K. so now my I.D. is comprised and your friend may now know who I am. No bother. By all acounts, he is otherwise a fine chap, so all is not lost.
There are some good comments made in this thread.
My thoughts are that you can't improvise on a tune you don't know, or you don't know its undelying, implied harmonic structure. It's not improvising. It's actually just waffling. You can't counterpoint a tune you don't know. It's like trying to paint on fresh air. The more tunes you learn, the better understanding you have of what works and what doesn't work, so his attitude is actually counter-productive.
Variations are great when they work, they mark the style of many great performers, and I know you're not talking about variations, because without the tune, they don't exist. They're waffles again. The guy isn't varying the tune. He's ignoring it for the sake of joining in with anything he can. It's a case of the emporer's new clothes. A little humility may open his eyes to the fact that he's walking around naked.
When he's had an attitude shift, and realises that you learn nothing if you think you know it all already, the situation will resolve. By airing your thoughts, you may well have already begun the process, and done him a favour. Best wishes to you both.
Yes he IS one of the nicest guys I`ve met and he does have a lot of musical talent too, which makes no sense.
However, things have developed in a positive way since everything was brought to his attention, my dilema has been sorted.
Many thanks to all who offered sound advice.
I look forward to meeting some of you in time
And yes Gael Force, you can have a pint when I see you (soon hopefully), can`t stretch to two though, and our mutual friend can get both of us a pint ! if he can find the bottom of his pockets !
I've been watching this thread and I have to say the collective membership has come a long way since I first joined this board regarding noodling. Back then I started one or two threads on this subject and the "noodlers" i.e. people who either did random improvisations because they didn't know the tunes, or people that were picking up tunes "on the fly,” were passionately defended. I was attacked for having the audacity to bring up the subject. I'm not seeing any of that on this thread, and it seems some of the contributors here have even since adjusted their positions since then. I think that's a good thing.
As far as people who improvise in an informed and knowledgeable way -- they should be admired for their skills. I know people who carefully insert nicely crafted improvisational phrases here and there and it adds a lot to the music. I have another friend who can play the tunes, but he can also improvise like a jazz musician and develop the melodies. Even though he was highly skilled, I still found it hard to play with him simply because I was unable to match what he was doing. We finally worked it out when we played for contra dances, since they required so many repetitions of the tunes. We would play the tune a couple of times and then I would step back and let him ‘go man go’. Then I would come back at the end and play the tune with him again. I only wish I had his improvisational abilities so I could have made my solos more interesting. Of course this was a bit out of context with ITM – but it was cool.
Improvisation in ITM ?
Improvisation in ITM ?
Is improvisation acceptable at sessions ?
Don`t know about you but I find it very distracting to have someone improvising on a melody instrument when everyone else is sticking to the tune ! In fact, I would go as far to say that it is very rude and shows a distinct lack of respect to the musicians who have taken the trouble to learn and practice a tune.
Is there a right and a wrong way to improvise ?
We have one `musician` at a session who refuses to learn any tunes on the grounds that he doesn`t need to because he can `improvise`, it`s like having a wasp buzzing in your ear !
I wouldn`t want to spoil our friendship by wrapping his mandolin around his head !
Is it possible to learn how to improvise properly ?
Any ideas ?
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I hate it, personally.
It's not quite the same as noodling as it's often done by players who could quite easily learn the tune. They might even know it already but either wish to show off or feel that they can "improve the melody". Of course, they might well get bored with a tune after a while but, in that case, why don't they "sit it out" and let the other players get on with it?
"Improvisation" is sometimes OK in actual JAM sessions, accompanying songs etc and is actually encouraged in by many participants in these situations. However, it's not generally welcome in traditional music sessions. The problem often arises when these "jammers" sit in on "tune sessions"
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Back for a while
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
"I wouldn't want to spoil our friendship by wrapping his mandolin around his head!"
I thought that was what mandolins were for!
Seriously though, if someone is not learning the tunes because they can't be bothered and, instead want to just make it up on the fly then this is a hanging offence. Good musicians can 'improvise' a harmony line if they know the tune really well and know the rules for a harmony line. Even then there are some on this site that would frown on it. To just make some nonsense up as you go along though is inexcusable.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Hmm
Noodling ? never heard that !
you may have given me a solution, The main session for all those who know or are learning the tune, followed by a good noodling session for an hour or so, sort of an egofest ! I will be long gone by the time the noodlers start `playing` of course.....everyone happy !
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Thank god ! I thought it was just me who favoured tie them to a lampost and whip the ba"£$%&s !
It`s almost an insult to the tradition.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
It's (jamming) a very annoying thing at trad sessions but fortunately it's very rare. I've only come across one instance of this with a fiddle player who jammed on any tune he didn't know; it was very disconcerting to hear rasping chords and random notes in your ear when you were trying to hear the rest of the musicians!
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I know a banjo player who does this and it's extremely annoying. Thankfully he's also one of the quietest banjo players around.
Of course, sparse improvisation within the framework of the tune by someone who knows the tune is much more acceptable in my book.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
"sparse improvisation within the framework of the tune"
"improvise a harmony line"
It seems to me that a little bit of improvisation done properly may be ok. "within the framework of the tune".........that`s the trick, on the odd occasion when he actually seems to stay pretty close to the tune, it does not sound too bad (still distracting) but more often he flies off in a completely different direction to the point it sounds like he is attempting to play an entirely different tune, none of it makes any sense at all.
(confusing myself now !)
BUT the question is how do you tell the feckers !
and is there a formula that would keep one within the framework of the tune ?
or maybe we could lock them all in a room together and only let them out if they promise to learn the bloody tunes !
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
"You leave jazz to the Beatles" -
[ Colm Meaney in "The Boys And Girl From The County Clare". ]
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Kenny
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I always thought the beatles were crap ! and so is jazz
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I agree Conán. I've heard some great players improvise in ways that are brilliantly exciting with out imposing on the tune itself. Well at least not in my opinion anyway. Now this is quite different than someone simply noodling along in a structured way on a tune they don't know. So I think, as in all things, generalization is inefficient.
Every once in a while I have the great honor and pleasure of being in a session when a great Rockland/Orange/Westchester County, NY (I don't know where he lives) banjo player turns up. He has a way of turning a phrase completely inside out and backwards, whilst the rest of the melody players stay on the tune, and resolve right back into the tune perfectly. It's brilliant and exhilarating stuff to be sure.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by ejsant
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
My noodler doesn`t even do it with any kind of structure and he does it on the whistle and bodhran too, at least the mandolin is a bit quiter. he tells me it`s all about counterpointing ? whatever the hell that is, sounds bloody crap anyway.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
How do you play a counterpoint melody on the bodhran? Do you mean he beats a different rhythm that "harmonises" with the actual rhythm?
I know some antastic players that can play harmony lines and it sounds fantastic. It is not something I would often try (at least deliberately!) because I am not confident I would get it right. One of the common harmony lines would be to play a third up from the melody (but not all the time) so when the tune has a D (and is oin say the key of D) you can play an F# and so forth. These are notes that harmonise. Doesn't sound like this is what your guy is doing though.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
>Sparse improvisation within the framework of the tune by someone who knows the tune is much more acceptable in my book.
Yes of course Conan, but that really amounts to an individual players "interpretation" of the tune, where s/he might add some little ornament within a phrase. That's not only acceptable but is the very essence of giving life to the music. Just wish I could do it. Assuming we're talking about the same thing right enough.......
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
....oh yeah, as for actual improvisation, that's just sh!te and is a cop-out from learning the actual tune.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Not only does my guy mess about with the tempo on his bodhran, twangs away on his madolin bearing no relation to the tune at all, as he does on his whistles ! he actively encourages other newcomers to the tradition to do the same.
If anyone makes a negative remark about his `style` of playing he quotes counterpointing etc. and reminds everyone that he played in an irish band for twenty years and see`s himself as a `key player` in the northwest folk scene ! talk about up his own arse !
It is blantantly obvious to me when something sounds right or wrong, I don`t know about all the mathematics of music, only been playing for a couple of years, but I do know when it sounds right.
What if I was to record some tunes from our next session and post them on this site, and ask for the opinion of fellow musicians on how it sounds/could be improved etc ?
I love him dearly, a very old friend, but his playing is driving me insane.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
"I love him dearly, a very old friend"
If that's the case, I don't think it would be very nice to post a recording of his playing here. What if he looks in here? He might not remain a friend too long.
While we all sypathise with your predicament here, I'd advise you against giving away too much detail about this chap...especially if you regard him to be a friend.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Back for a while
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
It would be nice to hear other musicians views on how we sound collectively.
and he posted me on you tube without asking, check out tone and leo overture on you tube videos ( it had been a long day and too much beer !)
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Sorry it was myspacetv.com leo n tone overture....told you it was a long day
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
"I love him dearly, a very old friend"
If he's such a good friend surely he could take it from you exactly what you think of what he's doing?
Isn't that what friendship should be about ? being honest and open with one another.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Talking about improvisation, anyone like these guys http://www.myspace.com/porticoquartet
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I asked one "improviser" what key did we end up in.?
He hadn't a clue.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by geoffwright
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=11375511
Is it yourself on the whistle Tony? Your "friend" isn't being very polite in the introduction. As John says, don't do anything that could ruin a friendship but at the same time I am curious about what he sounds like.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Oh I`ve tried everything, but with his `experience` and `knowledge` he will not listen, he reckons experienced musicians would not be put off by his style of improvisation.
yes he is a dear friend but in a musical situation he is never wrong.
Improvisation apart, I would be interested in others opinions of how we are doing so far with our sessions.
thanks to everyone for listening to my dilema
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Yes that`s me on the whistle and leo on guitar.
our friend was doing the filming (secretly) !
outside music he`s a nice guy really, but the musical gloves are off.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
*Cue Rocky Music*
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
What key is it in ?
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Any tips on how Leo and I can improve that tune ? apart from stay sober and only play the first part twice !
and any tips on how to do an intro so we all start at the same time (a bit hard for me to count us in with a whistle in my mouth.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
tony b, I feel your pain. It is tough to deal with a friend who is misguided, but deal with him you have to.
I played jazz for years, and no one would ever dream of improvising from one end of a tune to the other. You play the tune, play variations, and then at fixed times you allow people to improvise in solos. And then you come back to the melody at the end. Far more structured than constant noodling!
Even in Dixieland, where there is quite a bit of simultaneous improvising going on around the edges, someone always carries the melody, and most of the improvisations are built closely around that melody. So your friend who does not learn the tunes is using an approach that would not even work in jazz. I am afraid he is just masking laziness with a know-it-all attitude.
And from your subsequent post, he has no sense of rhythm and his improvisations are not even very musical--that is not improvisation at all.
I would suggest an 'intervention,' the whole group needs to give him their opinions all at once, since he seems dismissive of individual feedback.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I was typing a comment which got lost and then on returning I find that AlBrown has said what I was going to say only much more convincingly. It's not improvisation itself that is unacceptable, or there would be just one version of each tune where the dots are rendered unvaryingly and with metronomic precision.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Yes I know I need to deal with it, otherwise he may even discourage other musicians from joining us.
Funnily enough, he reckons he is very much influenced by jazz music, perhaps he`s going to the wrong sessions !
It`s something I need to deal with, trouble is we are all newcomers (hence the sheet music stand on the video clip) to ITM and he kinda pulls rank with his twenty years experience, very difficult indeed.
Maybe Leo and I are going to the wrong sessions !
Thanks
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
This is ITM, we play tunes.
Once you know the tune, you can ornament it.
There is no improvisation in ITM.
Again, we play TUNES. These TUNES have very specific notes that must be played.
If you are not playing the notes of the tune, then you are not playing ITM.
Please send Mr. Mandolin Jam back to the Phish concert so he can riff his brains out all night long while we play actual tunes with notes.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I do agree with you, SWFL, it's just that decoration could be said to have some aspects of improvisation so long as it is kept within the constraints of the genre. I think we all agree that free improvisation is something that should be taken elsewhere. The melody is king, as it is with some of the greatest jazz players (like the young Louis Armstrong)
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
is that TJM (traditional Jazz music) or MJM?
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
sorry should that be JTM? or Jazz saxophone music - JSM - jism for short?
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by Nick Splease
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
ITM = Improvised Trumpet Music
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by RichardB
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
There must be someone around your area with sufficient "weight" in traditional music terms to tell him to "pull his head in" as our Australian friends might say.
It sounds Iike he is wanting to be top dog amongst a bunch of folks just starting out in the music. He feels that, amongst your crowd, he can throw his weight about, whilst he probably wouldn't dream of doing it if he was in a session with more experienced players.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I have had various experiences with improvisers.
A new friend just joining us, who is a real and serious musician, takes direction very well and has improved so much. he is humble and very interested in doing it right. One doesn't need to beat around the bush. A very pleasant fellow - one of the people I look forward to seeing at sessions.
Another I refuse to sit next to. He throws me off. One time he was noodling along, just he and I. I decided I would improvise, too. I made my improvising sound more like a canary being eaten alive. We both stopped and stared at each other. I said "what was that?". He said he didn't know.
Sometimes I feel that some are "tune parasites". They feed off of those who have tried hard to learn tunes. Tune players sound good even when doing solos. These parasites are useless when they are not feeding on the rest.
The way Kant judged what is moral is to ask himself "what if everyone did it?". Well, what would happen if every one improvised wildly?
I work very hard on learning these tunes. Its not easy for me. It frosts me when folks think they can take these shortcuts.
Maybe I am wrong, but as we get better at this music, we play the melody and pulse more and more precisely. We don't graduate to improvising as we get better.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by feardearg
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Personally, I agree with everybody about the melody players... learn and play the version of the tune everyone else is, with tasteful ornamentation. Now ( and here's where I hear wasps buzzing)... really GOOD harmonic accompanists are unlikely to play the same backup sequences time after time. There's tons of ways to play through two bars of Aminor, and if the brain is engaged and responding to the melody players (and the whole environment), it will change according to the situation. With a GOOD accompanist, you wouldn't notice improvisation, except in a postive way. By the way, a good backup player will also stick with something that works to elevate a piece, and use it in an arrangement. Is that still wasps I hear?
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by drone
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Where else do you get the morality of Kant when dealing with people who refuse to learn ITM and insist on 'jamming' at sessions?
Nice work feardearg.
...and you're right about the advancement as we get better. We don't improvise, we 'play the melody and pulse more precisely', spot on.
...and RichardB, you are correct, however even with improvised ornamentation there are rules to be followed in the genre, and from my take on this, the mandolinist seemed to have very little notion of any of that.
Here in the States, in Florida, da' Souf', we are overrun with Bluegrass types who think they can jam aimlessly along with Irish sessions, so perhaps it's my pet peeve and I'm a little sensitive about it, sorry folks.
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
i always thought a set of pipes would work well in this context:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlDW12LclNI
# Posted on June 29th 2007 by DubChieftain
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
i dont know what merit this comment may have... but--
there is a difference between variations, harmony, and improvisation. the last one has no place in traditional irish music.
tell your friend that counterpoint does NOT (always) mean improvised.... tell him to listen to beethoven and tell ask him if the orchestra improvised the counterpoint in there.
# Posted on June 30th 2007 by daiv
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
You noodle over there; I'll macaroni over here!
# Posted on June 30th 2007 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Good point, daiv --
The semantics were starting to tangle me a bit with this thread. Variations in the ornamentation ARE improvisation, but probably not to be confused with taking liberties with the main gist of the tune. (If someone wrote a nice tune, it is polite to play some of it - or else just re-name what you are playing and have done with it.).
As others have said already on this thread, without a bit of latitude for personal expression, this whole ITM thing would be rather empty for many musicians.
As regards the original entry, re. the "master player" who likes to throw his weight around: What about common courtesy?
Is the session all about him, or are there other players with equal an right to enjoy themselves?
Also, how do the other regulars really feel about his playing?
I would not jump all over your mate, tony b, I have not met the man, but, really, how nice is someone behaving when they are in their own little world, and to heck with the rest of us?
If it feels right, as his friend tell him. Be kind.
A very tricky problem, good luck with it.
# Posted on June 30th 2007 by Rook
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
So,I guess there's no room for
Johnny Doran
Cathal Hayen
Gerry O'Connor
Colin Farrell
Mike McGoldrick
Tommy Potts
Mick McAuley
Oisin McAuley
Frankie Gavin
Darren Maloney
(I could go on)
All improvisers in there own right.
The art of improviation within traditional music has always been there,although it's a very dangerous area if you don't know what you're doing.
The tunes must be learned and it doesn't fit every situation.
Variation(if not confined to exact variations every time)is improvisation.
It's usually applied very lightly and doesn't last long enough to disrupt the music.
Constant noodlers(as they might be called)are hard to tolerate and it usually demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the music but for those who know what they're at it's a different ball game and every bit as serious and can take a long time to master,although some situations may require less diversion from the tune than others.
In order to improvise on a tune there must be a very good working knowledge of rhythm and harmony there already,plus a sensitivity to your musical surroundings and sometimes the poor people who can't stomach any deviation from the melody if in that situation.
So,I would honestly tell your mandolin player to not play with you any more if he's doing what I think he is,which is pretty much farting around on his instrument,and not what I would call proficient improvisation.
What do you think gtr and bouzouki players do,play the tune?
(this is a huge area of discussion and I haven't got the time to noodle around this any more)
P
# Posted on June 30th 2007 by P.browne
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
You can only resolve this at the source. Every session is different. In your session the group decides which rules apply & which to ignore. From your description the session needs limits on improvisation.
Let's assume your friend is doing a good job at improvising but most of the group gets distracted. Would you consider yours a 'slow session'? (BTW this is not a derogatory term)
That is to say most are new to ITM, many of the tunes are being learned, & sheet music is OK.
Under those circumstances improvisation is definitely out of place. Anyone who wants to try it should set up a session with your mandolin friend.
# Posted on June 30th 2007 by Tonya
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
SIMPLE!!!
DONT DO IT IF YOU CANT DO IT!!!!
i agree that it is alright for harmony instruments *IF* the guy knows what he's doing...
melody instruments, NO not in the middle of a session, it just serves to p*ss everyone off even if it does sound good... =|
i play fiddle and i see where people are coming from, but its just courtesy not to start improvising...
# Posted on July 1st 2007 by haggihunter
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
So the consensus of opinion
(the opinion of 15 musicians from all over the UK and America, with probably over 100 years collective experience of playing in bands and at sessions with a multitude of instruments)
is thus;
NO !!!!!!!!!
Improvisation at ITM sessions is not welcome and could even be a hanging offense !
Johnny J (mandolin/fiddle)
says it is often done to try and "show off" because they feel they "can improve the melody" and mentions the "jammers" who spoil "tune sessions".
Bannerman (fiddle)
Sympathises and agrees that this type of improvisation is really just "jamming"
No cause for alarm (guitar/whistles/bouzouki)
says to make some nonesense up as you go along should be a hanging offense, whilst some GOOD musicians can "improvise" a harmony line IF they know the tune and the "rules for a harmony line"
Cona`n McDonnel (piano accordian/bodhran/harmonica)
A musician with 24 years experience, finds improvisation extremely annoying, whilst SPARSE improvisation "within the framework of the tune" by someone who KNOWS the tune may be ok.
Ejsant (bodhran/guitar)
Does point out that IF done properly, it can sound brilliant.
Key maniac lad
agrees that a little ORNAMENTATION within a phrase can give life to a tune. but improvisation, apart from sounding sh!!e is just a cop-out from learning the tune.
Haggihunter
Brief and to the point, says pretty much the same, if you can`t do it - don`t do it ! especially with melody instruments, and mentions the courtesy issue.
Al Brown (mostly guitar)
says that this type of improvisation would not work in other types of music including jazz, and again stresses the importance of the melody.
Richard B (mandolin/guitar/harmonica/fiddle)
a musician with several decades experience ! agrees that melody is king.
Drone (guitar/fiddle)
also agrees that the melody is what`s important and mentions that you would not notice good improvisation, except in a positive way.
swfl fiddler (fiddle/banjo)
does not mix his words and simply states there is no place for improvisation in ITM
a sentiment that is shared by
Daiv (concertina/whistle/flute)
and Rook
Tonya also agrees that improvisation would be out of place at slow sessions.
Feardearg (guitar/whistle)
obviously has no time for improvisers or "tune parasites" and asks what if everyone did it !
he also makes a very good point that I had not thought of, I`ll come back to that later.
P.Browne
suggests that the tunes must first be learned and makes the point that any variation should be lightly applied and not last long enough to disrupt the tune.
a good point feardearg made was that as we get better at this music, we play the melody and pulse more precisely - we don`t graduate to improvisation.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So there we have it !
improvisation in ITM, and other types of music, is not welcome by both new and experienced musicians, unless MAYBE done very tastefully, quietly, for only short periods, by someone who really knows what they are doing, and done in a courtious manner that does not in any way disrupt the melody.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to thank all of the above for all the opinions, I know what I need to do !
Thanks again,
Tony
p.s.
anyone got any thoughts on the myspace clip of Leo and I ?
# Posted on July 1st 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I think what I said was that doing what your friend is apparently doing is not right. The impression coming across generally seems to be that someone playing a harmony line or a properly constructed counterpoint to the melody is not wanted either. I can't agree with that. I know some fantastic musicians who will play around with a tune and add a harmony line in and this can be very welcome. It is just that does not appear to be what your friend is doing.
# Posted on July 1st 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
I think also that "harmonising" etc seems to be more popular in Scottish sessions too where as playing "in unison" is more the norm for Irish music.
Note, I'm talking about sessions as opposed to band peformances or, indeed, solo performances by well known musicians.
# Posted on July 1st 2007 by Back for a while
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Tony B you made up your mind before you ever posted.
Now you are trying to use the opinions of people on a blog
to leverage your position in a session. Once again,' You can only resolve this at the source." A session is worthless if you cannot work these things out in that session!
BTW if improvisation did not play a part in traditional music we would all be playing Brian Boru's ad infinitum; ad nauseam.
# Posted on July 1st 2007 by Tonya
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Hi Tony I sympathise with your situation, but I'm not really qualified to be putting my oar in.
As for your playing you've really got the tune down fine. Remembering how many times you have played a part can be difficult for anyone after a few beers!
The only thing missing is perhaps some ornamentation but that will come the more you listen to other players (recorded and live if possible) and the more you practice. If you can find a local mentor who plays in a style you like, try and get in there and get some lessons or pointers. There are also some online sites that give incite into the methods of ornamentation, which I have found very helpful. A nice one for help with tunes is' www.tradlessons.com.'
Good Luck with your present predicament and keep whistling you're doing great !
# Posted on July 1st 2007 by flossie
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
No cause for alarm/johnny j
Even I know the difference between harmony and just outright improvisation throughout the whole tune, the latter being what my friend is doing. Cheers guys.
Tonya, If I knew what I was talking about and exactly what to do about it I would not have posted it on this site, you`re way off the mark I`m afraid, and as for using the opinions of others to leverage my position at a session............That`s the biggest load of crap I`ve heard for a long long time, sorry ! everyone else appears to have got it...........is this not a discussions page ? a place for relative newbies like me to ask opinions and advice of others ? whom, it turns out have almost all had the same problem at one time or another. and for the record, improvisation sounds crap to me !
Flossie
Thanks for the great advice (and encouragement !)
# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Sorry if I offended you B.
Good luck with your session & your friendship!
# Posted on July 2nd 2007 by Tonya
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Tony. I know who you're talking about. He's seen me play Mandolin once when I visited a session casually with a mutual friend (who you also know) just for a listen, and a pint. I was asked to play, so I just did one set of jigs. O.K. so now my I.D. is comprised and your friend may now know who I am. No bother. By all acounts, he is otherwise a fine chap, so all is not lost.
There are some good comments made in this thread.
My thoughts are that you can't improvise on a tune you don't know, or you don't know its undelying, implied harmonic structure. It's not improvising. It's actually just waffling. You can't counterpoint a tune you don't know. It's like trying to paint on fresh air. The more tunes you learn, the better understanding you have of what works and what doesn't work, so his attitude is actually counter-productive.
Variations are great when they work, they mark the style of many great performers, and I know you're not talking about variations, because without the tune, they don't exist. They're waffles again. The guy isn't varying the tune. He's ignoring it for the sake of joining in with anything he can. It's a case of the emporer's new clothes. A little humility may open his eyes to the fact that he's walking around naked.
When he's had an attitude shift, and realises that you learn nothing if you think you know it all already, the situation will resolve. By airing your thoughts, you may well have already begun the process, and done him a favour. Best wishes to you both.
Oh, and ... mine's a pint. ^_^
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Gael Force
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Oops!
A couple of typos in my previous post...
comprised = compromised
undelying = underlying
pint =2 pints.
# Posted on July 11th 2007 by Gael Force
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Yes he IS one of the nicest guys I`ve met and he does have a lot of musical talent too, which makes no sense.
However, things have developed in a positive way since everything was brought to his attention, my dilema has been sorted.
Many thanks to all who offered sound advice.
I look forward to meeting some of you in time
And yes Gael Force, you can have a pint when I see you (soon hopefully), can`t stretch to two though, and our mutual friend can get both of us a pint ! if he can find the bottom of his pockets !
Cheers
Tony
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by tony b
Re: Improvisation in ITM ?
Ah... a noodling thread
I've been watching this thread and I have to say the collective membership has come a long way since I first joined this board regarding noodling. Back then I started one or two threads on this subject and the "noodlers" i.e. people who either did random improvisations because they didn't know the tunes, or people that were picking up tunes "on the fly,” were passionately defended. I was attacked for having the audacity to bring up the subject. I'm not seeing any of that on this thread, and it seems some of the contributors here have even since adjusted their positions since then. I think that's a good thing.
As far as people who improvise in an informed and knowledgeable way -- they should be admired for their skills. I know people who carefully insert nicely crafted improvisational phrases here and there and it adds a lot to the music. I have another friend who can play the tunes, but he can also improvise like a jazz musician and develop the melodies. Even though he was highly skilled, I still found it hard to play with him simply because I was unable to match what he was doing. We finally worked it out when we played for contra dances, since they required so many repetitions of the tunes. We would play the tune a couple of times and then I would step back and let him ‘go man go’. Then I would come back at the end and play the tune with him again. I only wish I had his improvisational abilities so I could have made my solos more interesting. Of course this was a bit out of context with ITM – but it was cool.
# Posted on July 12th 2007 by Phantom Button