Where events with major bands can seem to flop in terms of numbers through the door what do you think are the best means for a band to promote themselves. Examples of this for example would include the recent Altan/Session A9 tour over here. I could not make the gig that was on near here but I gather it was quite quiet and got even more so in the second half with many apparently not bothering to stay to see Altan.
It is the same with tuition weekends and courses though. I don't know how it is in Ireland, but here in Scotland even some of the more established summer course venues such as Sabhal Mor Ostaig have suffered with declining numbers in recent years.
What do you think are the most successful potential marketing strategies? To get you going here is one idea from one of the most established traditional bands in Scotland:
That strategy would do no harm I suppose.
But in answer to your query, I just don't know. Some of the local Irish Centre team had a tough time getting enough heads out for some of the brilliant events that took place in during the recent Lewisham Irish Festival. Desperate. Considering Lewisham had been traditionally thought of as a bit of an Irish area (nowadays mostly Turkish and Carribean, but also Irish...AND Scots, surprisingly.) So I just don't know. Quite sad really.
I think MySpace is very important to reach the younger generation.
Then again if supply exceeds the demand marketing can't work.
This year a number of old rock stars go on tour e.g. the Who and the Police. If they are still good and rarely to be seen in public then people will go to their concerts.
.....As far as the Scottish scene is concerned and I include visiting Irish(and other)bands in this too..
I'm sure part of the problem is that there has been such an upsurge of interest in playing this music by young (even some not so young people. There are so many good courses and opportunities for tuition these days. However, the number of potentially good venues and general interest from the public at large hasn't grown to the same extent as the number of bands, artists etc looking for gigs.
So, with so much competition these days, even bands like Altan will find things more difficult.
As regards falling course numbers, they have possibly just peaked..which might not be a bad thing. It doesn't mean that they can't continue on a slightly lesser scale though.
So, in many ways we're victims of our own success!
You all have set me thinking about the increased popularity of ITM and how it is being passed on to the next generation.
I wonder what traditions are associated with the music by our younger musicians. Perhaps you have hit on a point concerning the nature and evolution of this music we play.
I have not been to Ireland in many years, so I have no way of really knowing: Is social dancing to traditonal music really alive and well (or growing) in Ireland and Scotland?
I wonder if, without the stimulus of its original purpose, dance music can evolve in ways that could cause it to lose its "soul", for lack of a better term. I listen to a lot of music labeled ITM where the artists are playing dance music which, in the manner of its performance, does not in any way make me feel like dancing. And that was the whole point at one time, wasn't it?
Technical brilliance made no difference if you could not dance the figures to it, with the right lift and tempo for the dancers to be comfortable.
My teacher was generally considered to be a fine player to dance to, and tried hard to impart a bit of it to his students. Many of them seem to have embraced the lesson quite well.
My point of debate/discussion/query is, without the dancing is the music, in many places at least, losing the distinctive esthetic quality which made it so infectious in the first place?
I'm raving again I suspect, also probably missed the reaI subject of this text, but what do you think, comrades?
Traditional music, at least in my mind, does not always have to be played for dancing. There are any number of moods that can be conveyed when considering slow airs or the fastest of reels and all in between. I don't think it needs to be restricted to one particular form. Sure if it is music to be danced to then it needs to fulfil a number of requirements, not least a consideration for the speed played but, personally speaking, I find reels played well at 90mph on a set of border pipes to be the most energising music you can get.
We've been everywhere before! Why doesn't someone start a thread with suggestions for (new) thread topics allowing someone else to provide the link to show that they have all been covered. It could be called "The Thread of Threads!"
Anyway, that discussion seemed to be about who dances or plays for dancers. Maybe this one can be more about how traditional music is marketed (as it started) and reference a number of ideas including whether dancing makes the music more or less marketable.
Although, looking at Jamie's review I see he doesn't talk about the depleting crowds. I am pretty sure this was the gig that he said was lower in numbers than you would expect, particularly in the second half.
Yeah, it was Perth Australia, they'd be called "SessionHwy1"
I'm pretty sure Aly & Phil (or "them that shall remain nameless" on "footstompin") manage to fill the likes of the Music Hall in Aberdeen which takes about 1200
500 is quite a lot for Perth, Scotland which only has a population of 40-50K. How many does the hall hold?
Aly and Phil are exceptions to the rule in that they are always crowd pullers. However, even they don't always sell out all their concerts. They also plan their tours to maximise attendance from their "target audiences" eg in The Highlands during the summer and at Edinburgh during The Fringe or thereabouts. Some on Footstompin' have criticised them for this too but, as far as I'm concerned, "Fair Play to Them".
Interesting about Aly and Phil. They're brilliant, of course.
I saw them, I think the year before last, at a small theatre in Abergavenny that can hold just over 300. The place was, I should think, at most a third full.
It would probably be expected that people from the surrounding areas, Fife, even Dundee(if there was no gig there) would also travel to the gig.
I don't know how keen people are to commute for gigs over there but it seems to be that the bigger the city or conurbation the lazier people become!
The folk club environment was really a very good environment to see a lot of trad acts; it was intimate, while allowing (just enough) space and distance for them to perform on their own terms. You are not so likely to get that in a theatre or auditorium unless its packed with their fans - as, I suppose, it often is at a folk festival.
There are never any gigs in Dundee!! - so people travel through to Perth for gigs quite regularly. It is only a 30 minute drive anyway. Jamie, himself, is resident in Dundee. The population that this gig will be drawing on is therefore considerably larger than 50,000. I agree though that 500 is not a bad turnout for a trad gig although, remember that the 2 bands playing were Altan and Session A9, two huge groups. There was also a fair bit of publicity for the tour, with posters even appearing in my Uni Dept building, to the east of Dundee.
JJ suggested that:
"Even the Irish music session scene which is, apparently, "the universal norm" still only has a minority appeal."
I suspect that the Irish music session scene may have peaked already.
The other day I walked past Speakers' Corner. It struck me that the relation of sessions to good ITM is a bit like that of Speakers' Corner to intelligent debate. It can happen, but... mostly it's an intellectual/musical brawl.
What proportion of established luminaries of the ITM scene attend general sessions? Very few, I suspect, and in most cases I would doubt if that is due to any great sense of being "above" the rest of us.
i agree partially with johnny j's theory about the market for this music being extremely limited....
the fact is that there never has been much of a "market" for this music. i remember reading an interview with paddy canny where he said that during his years with the tulla ceili band, you made enough on a good night on the road to maybe have a couple of pints and buy a pack of cigarettes. those guys were farmers. people didn't do it for a "market'---they did it because they loved it and they loved playing for the tiny yet appreciative community of listeners and dancers who loved it. i also read a comment on a thread years ago by someone who said that members of altan had told this poster they wouldn't have a prayer of doing music as a career in ireland due to all the other fantastic musicians there. their only hope was touring. which brings me to my next point, which is that the touring option was itself limited to a cultural moment.....
there was oh, say, about five minutes during the post-70s to late 90s, of a surge due to first, the 60s/70s counterculture revivalist wave, followed by oh, about five minutes for ireland or the british isles to have their moment in the spotlight during the "world music" wave. in one way this surge was great for the music, but in another way, it was awful, to the degree that many of the people now choosing to play it are basing their aspirations on a rock or pop music model of a musical life, in which you try for a "career" or stardom or success in a "band" modeled on a rock "band." and it just ain't so. interest in the music isn't dwindling. it's just settling down to the way it has been for most of its history, that's my take on it....
Marketing traditional music
Marketing traditional music
Where events with major bands can seem to flop in terms of numbers through the door what do you think are the best means for a band to promote themselves. Examples of this for example would include the recent Altan/Session A9 tour over here. I could not make the gig that was on near here but I gather it was quite quiet and got even more so in the second half with many apparently not bothering to stay to see Altan.
It is the same with tuition weekends and courses though. I don't know how it is in Ireland, but here in Scotland even some of the more established summer course venues such as Sabhal Mor Ostaig have suffered with declining numbers in recent years.
What do you think are the most successful potential marketing strategies? To get you going here is one idea from one of the most established traditional bands in Scotland:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxU18UvWM-s
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
That strategy would do no harm I suppose.
But in answer to your query, I just don't know. Some of the local Irish Centre team had a tough time getting enough heads out for some of the brilliant events that took place in during the recent Lewisham Irish Festival. Desperate. Considering Lewisham had been traditionally thought of as a bit of an Irish area (nowadays mostly Turkish and Carribean, but also Irish...AND Scots, surprisingly.) So I just don't know. Quite sad really.
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Marketing traditional music
Heh heh, that makes me want to buy the Tannahill's CD again (and it wasn't even that good). Roy sure is a skinny little bastard.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by MartySmith
Re: Marketing traditional music
I think MySpace is very important to reach the younger generation.
Then again if supply exceeds the demand marketing can't work.
This year a number of old rock stars go on tour e.g. the Who and the Police. If they are still good and rarely to be seen in public then people will go to their concerts.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by kuec
Re: Marketing traditional music
My tuppence worth.....
.....As far as the Scottish scene is concerned and I include visiting Irish(and other)bands in this too..
I'm sure part of the problem is that there has been such an upsurge of interest in playing this music by young (even some not so young people. There are so many good courses and opportunities for tuition these days. However, the number of potentially good venues and general interest from the public at large hasn't grown to the same extent as the number of bands, artists etc looking for gigs.
So, with so much competition these days, even bands like Altan will find things more difficult.
As regards falling course numbers, they have possibly just peaked..which might not be a bad thing. It doesn't mean that they can't continue on a slightly lesser scale though.
So, in many ways we're victims of our own success!
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Marketing traditional music
You all have set me thinking about the increased popularity of ITM and how it is being passed on to the next generation.
I wonder what traditions are associated with the music by our younger musicians. Perhaps you have hit on a point concerning the nature and evolution of this music we play.
I have not been to Ireland in many years, so I have no way of really knowing: Is social dancing to traditonal music really alive and well (or growing) in Ireland and Scotland?
I wonder if, without the stimulus of its original purpose, dance music can evolve in ways that could cause it to lose its "soul", for lack of a better term. I listen to a lot of music labeled ITM where the artists are playing dance music which, in the manner of its performance, does not in any way make me feel like dancing. And that was the whole point at one time, wasn't it?
Technical brilliance made no difference if you could not dance the figures to it, with the right lift and tempo for the dancers to be comfortable.
My teacher was generally considered to be a fine player to dance to, and tried hard to impart a bit of it to his students. Many of them seem to have embraced the lesson quite well.
My point of debate/discussion/query is, without the dancing is the music, in many places at least, losing the distinctive esthetic quality which made it so infectious in the first place?
I'm raving again I suspect, also probably missed the reaI subject of this text, but what do you think, comrades?
A Pre-Coffee Rook
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by Rook
Re: Marketing traditional music
Traditional music, at least in my mind, does not always have to be played for dancing. There are any number of moods that can be conveyed when considering slow airs or the fastest of reels and all in between. I don't think it needs to be restricted to one particular form. Sure if it is music to be danced to then it needs to fulfil a number of requirements, not least a consideration for the speed played but, personally speaking, I find reels played well at 90mph on a set of border pipes to be the most energising music you can get.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
We've been here before:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11076
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Marketing traditional music
We've been everywhere before! Why doesn't someone start a thread with suggestions for (new) thread topics allowing someone else to provide the link to show that they have all been covered. It could be called "The Thread of Threads!"
Anyway, that discussion seemed to be about who dances or plays for dancers. Maybe this one can be more about how traditional music is marketed (as it started) and reference a number of ideas including whether dancing makes the music more or less marketable.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
Nobody's yet commented on my opinion that there isn't really a market for the music out there.
I know that's not strictly true but the music will never be as popular as we wish and there is a limit to how many bands and gigs we can sustain.
Even the Irish music session scene which is, apparently, "the universal norm"
still only has a minority appeal.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Marketing traditional music
Where is trad. music popular? Is it here in the USA? I don't think so.
Heres a review of one show. with ALtan and A9 at the The Perth concert hall in Australia.... http://www.acousticecosse.org/home/altan-and-session-a9/
500 or so people, thats a GREAT crowd for a trad. concert here in the USA.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Marketing traditional music
Ya daft ninny M-H - That is Perth Concert Hall in Perth, Scotland - the original Perth, none of your New World copies!!
That is the local concert I was taliking about at the start of the thread!
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
Let's all laugh and point!
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
Although, looking at Jamie's review I see he doesn't talk about the depleting crowds. I am pretty sure this was the gig that he said was lower in numbers than you would expect, particularly in the second half.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
Yeah, it was Perth Australia, they'd be called "SessionHwy1"
I'm pretty sure Aly & Phil (or "them that shall remain nameless" on "footstompin") manage to fill the likes of the Music Hall in Aberdeen which takes about 1200
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by Bren
Re: Marketing traditional music
500 is quite a lot for Perth, Scotland which only has a population of 40-50K. How many does the hall hold?
Aly and Phil are exceptions to the rule in that they are always crowd pullers. However, even they don't always sell out all their concerts. They also plan their tours to maximise attendance from their "target audiences" eg in The Highlands during the summer and at Edinburgh during The Fringe or thereabouts. Some on Footstompin' have criticised them for this too but, as far as I'm concerned, "Fair Play to Them".
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Marketing traditional music
I think the Perth Concert Hall is about 1200 as well.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
Ah, I see I have answered your question before I saw it was asked. Never underestimate my powers!
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
Even better! Exuse my ignorance, relish in the facts... 500 in a town of 50000... that would be excellent for USA standards.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Marketing traditional music
Interesting about Aly and Phil. They're brilliant, of course.
I saw them, I think the year before last, at a small theatre in Abergavenny that can hold just over 300. The place was, I should think, at most a third full.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Marketing traditional music
Mary Highlander,
It would probably be expected that people from the surrounding areas, Fife, even Dundee(if there was no gig there) would also travel to the gig.
I don't know how keen people are to commute for gigs over there but it seems to be that the bigger the city or conurbation the lazier people become!
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Marketing traditional music
The folk club environment was really a very good environment to see a lot of trad acts; it was intimate, while allowing (just enough) space and distance for them to perform on their own terms. You are not so likely to get that in a theatre or auditorium unless its packed with their fans - as, I suppose, it often is at a folk festival.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Marketing traditional music
But I suppose the question being asked is, How to market TM to those who are not already players / in the fanbase?
Presenting it as a hotbed of sex, violence and lurid exoticism would turn a few heads. But I am not recommending this...
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by nicholas
Re: Marketing traditional music
There are never any gigs in Dundee!!
- so people travel through to Perth for gigs quite regularly. It is only a 30 minute drive anyway. Jamie, himself, is resident in Dundee. The population that this gig will be drawing on is therefore considerably larger than 50,000. I agree though that 500 is not a bad turnout for a trad gig although, remember that the 2 bands playing were Altan and Session A9, two huge groups. There was also a fair bit of publicity for the tour, with posters even appearing in my Uni Dept building, to the east of Dundee.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Marketing traditional music
JJ suggested that:
"Even the Irish music session scene which is, apparently, "the universal norm" still only has a minority appeal."
I suspect that the Irish music session scene may have peaked already.
The other day I walked past Speakers' Corner. It struck me that the relation of sessions to good ITM is a bit like that of Speakers' Corner to intelligent debate. It can happen, but... mostly it's an intellectual/musical brawl.
What proportion of established luminaries of the ITM scene attend general sessions? Very few, I suspect, and in most cases I would doubt if that is due to any great sense of being "above" the rest of us.
# Posted on June 24th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Marketing traditional music
i agree partially with johnny j's theory about the market for this music being extremely limited....
the fact is that there never has been much of a "market" for this music. i remember reading an interview with paddy canny where he said that during his years with the tulla ceili band, you made enough on a good night on the road to maybe have a couple of pints and buy a pack of cigarettes. those guys were farmers. people didn't do it for a "market'---they did it because they loved it and they loved playing for the tiny yet appreciative community of listeners and dancers who loved it. i also read a comment on a thread years ago by someone who said that members of altan had told this poster they wouldn't have a prayer of doing music as a career in ireland due to all the other fantastic musicians there. their only hope was touring. which brings me to my next point, which is that the touring option was itself limited to a cultural moment.....
there was oh, say, about five minutes during the post-70s to late 90s, of a surge due to first, the 60s/70s counterculture revivalist wave, followed by oh, about five minutes for ireland or the british isles to have their moment in the spotlight during the "world music" wave. in one way this surge was great for the music, but in another way, it was awful, to the degree that many of the people now choosing to play it are basing their aspirations on a rock or pop music model of a musical life, in which you try for a "career" or stardom or success in a "band" modeled on a rock "band." and it just ain't so. interest in the music isn't dwindling. it's just settling down to the way it has been for most of its history, that's my take on it....
# Posted on June 25th 2007 by ceemonster