There are characteristic differences in playing style.
Scottish jigs tend to be played with stress on both the first and the fourth notes of each bar, these notes being noticeably dotted; in some parts of some tunes though the second note is stressed / dotted instead of the first.
Irish jigs generally stress the first note in a bar more than any other, and while dotted notes can feature in Irish playing they are not as fundamental to it as they are to Scottish playing of Scottish music.
Totally wrong. Irish jigs have a slight emphasis on the 1st and 4th notes. ie the first note in each group of 3. Scottish jigs have no emphasis on any note - all are treated equally. I only realised this a few years ago when Mary Bergin gave a masterclass in Grantown-On-Spey, a few years back. She demonstrated this both vocally and also on the whistle playing a jig slowly and at speed. If you want a perfect example of this, listen to some of the jigs played by Harry Bradley on his "Night Rambler's Companion" CD. As I type this, I also remember Harry telling us exactly the same at Hammy's flute meeting a year past April. [ Hope I've remembered that correctly, Harry, if you see this ! ]
Wish I could remember exactly how she put it, but fiddler Laura Cortese said something to the effect that Scottish music tends "not to have as many notes" as Irish. This characteristic, she felt, gives you more freedom to accentuate the drive and rhythm.
think of Stool of Repentance or Jig of Slurs, or Blackthorn Stick...I have always heard them with dotted rhythym, not at all played straight...in fact, I've said before, Duke Ellington said that there
are 2 types of music that swing, Jazz and Scottish...
Scottish jigs do tend to have more swing in them. The three notes in the group are not necessarily played for the same length even if they are notated as such. Irish jigs, as I understand it tend to be played straighter but with more emphasis on the first note of each group.
But these are just guidelines and will certainly vary from player to player.
molaoch - I was going to send you the recording we discussed elsewhere later today, but I think what I'll do is make you a compilation of Scottish jigs played by different players and combinations, and you can decide for yourself. I'll send them out to you next week.
Do you have the CD "Rock & Roses" by Pat Kilbride ? If not look it up in the recordings. Our local library sold off some CDs a couple of years back and I bought a copy to give to someone who I thought would put it to good use. Could be you, if you're interested.
Having experimented with playing English jigs into a music writing program via a midi keyboard, I'd say that in any group of three quavers, the first is slightly longer and the second slightly shorter to compensate, it's more sort of 'leaning on' the first note. I'd probably describe it as 'gently swung', nearer in feel to Scots than Irish.
It's extremely difficult to describe in words, and not that easy to notate, all double dots and demi-semiquavers. Also, of course, there are regional variations, not to mention variation from player to player. Maybe part of the charm of traditional music is that it's almost impossible to lay down rules.
Perhaps the only certainty is that someone will disagree strongly and tell me I'm talking out of my rse.
However I'm off to a session weekend and by the time I get back I'll be too tired to care!
I play Highland pipes and uilleann pipes, so my observations come from those traditions. In Irish music, jigs usually have six eighth-notes per bar (we're talking double jigs, the kind most often heard) while Highland pipe jigs often contain quarter notes and even dotted quarter notes. So often in a Highland pipe jig you might have only two notes in a bar, while this is rare in Irish jigs. Another difference is that Irish jigs are often propelled by long rolls, that is, three eighth-notes seperated by gracenotes. Highland pipes traditionally do not do this type of thing, but often group notes in twos rather than threes. Of course this is all changing in the Highland piping world, with all the major pipe bands playing loads of borrowed Irish jigs and also newly-composed jigs in the Irish style. I get the CD's of the World Pipe Band Championships each year (showcasing the best and most innovative pipe bands in the world) and band after band will play nothing but Irish jigs or new Irish-style jigs.
About the dotting and cutting, yes, the Highland bagpipe "old-school" way was to dot and cut (as they call it, to "point") jigs, but nowadays that is rarely heard and the jigs flow out in even eighth-notes (as they call it, playing "round").
It's interesting how much a jig can change when it travels across the idioms. Perfect example it "The Jig Of Slurs". This was composed by a Highland piper to highlight the technique Highland pipers call a "slur", which is what uilleann pipers call a "pat", that is a lower gracenote used to seperate a quarternote into two eighth-notes. The Jig Of Slurs therefore, as originally written, progresses almost entirely by pairs of notes. When I heard Matt Molloy's version I was amazed because he entirely changed the tune, replacing all the "slurs" (pairs of notes) with long rolls (groups of three notes). So, from the Highland piping perspective, he had removed all the slurs from the jig of slurs!
IMHO, There is no difference. The most popular "Scottish" jig tunes could be played in any Irish session: Cor Hill, Irish Washerwoman, etc.
On the other hand, reel tunes are a bit different, but again it depends on which tune do you play.
Miki
You'll hear what I mean if you hear, for example, the Highland bagpipe tune Barbara's Jig, the first bar of which only has two notes. Irish double jigs rarely, if ever, have that little movement. It seems to be something like this: Irish double jigs: six eighth-notes per bar. Irish single jigs: quarter-eighth, quarter-eighth. Irish slip jigs and Highland jigs mix these two idioms.
Irish and Scottish jigs.
Irish and Scottish jigs.
What's the difference between them? Are there any fundamental, identifiable features that make one jig Irish, the other Scottish?
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by molaoch
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
There are characteristic differences in playing style.
Scottish jigs tend to be played with stress on both the first and the fourth notes of each bar, these notes being noticeably dotted; in some parts of some tunes though the second note is stressed / dotted instead of the first.
Irish jigs generally stress the first note in a bar more than any other, and while dotted notes can feature in Irish playing they are not as fundamental to it as they are to Scottish playing of Scottish music.
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by nicholas
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
(Actually, the second note may be dotted without being stressed - I think...)
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by nicholas
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
Totally wrong. Irish jigs have a slight emphasis on the 1st and 4th notes. ie the first note in each group of 3. Scottish jigs have no emphasis on any note - all are treated equally. I only realised this a few years ago when Mary Bergin gave a masterclass in Grantown-On-Spey, a few years back. She demonstrated this both vocally and also on the whistle playing a jig slowly and at speed. If you want a perfect example of this, listen to some of the jigs played by Harry Bradley on his "Night Rambler's Companion" CD. As I type this, I also remember Harry telling us exactly the same at Hammy's flute meeting a year past April. [ Hope I've remembered that correctly, Harry, if you see this ! ]
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by Kenny
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
Scottish jigs have no emphasis on any note? You got and are dispensing some bad mojo, there.
Typically, a Scottish jig will dot the first note of the triplet (hold it a wee bit longer) and may even give it a bit of a "pulse", too.
daaa da da
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
I was probably thinking of pipe marches - sorry to mislead.
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by nicholas
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
Sunnybear - rubbish.
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by Kenny
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
LOL, Kenny, don't hold back. Why not tell us what you really think.
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by Will CPT
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
Wish I could remember exactly how she put it, but fiddler Laura Cortese said something to the effect that Scottish music tends "not to have as many notes" as Irish. This characteristic, she felt, gives you more freedom to accentuate the drive and rhythm.
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by sts
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
think of Stool of Repentance or Jig of Slurs, or Blackthorn Stick...I have always heard them with dotted rhythym, not at all played straight...in fact, I've said before, Duke Ellington said that there
are 2 types of music that swing, Jazz and Scottish...
probably so, sts
# Posted on June 21st 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
How do these compare to jigs in the English style?
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
Scottish jigs do tend to have more swing in them. The three notes in the group are not necessarily played for the same length even if they are notated as such. Irish jigs, as I understand it tend to be played straighter but with more emphasis on the first note of each group.
But these are just guidelines and will certainly vary from player to player.
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
molaoch - I was going to send you the recording we discussed elsewhere later today, but I think what I'll do is make you a compilation of Scottish jigs played by different players and combinations, and you can decide for yourself. I'll send them out to you next week.
Do you have the CD "Rock & Roses" by Pat Kilbride ? If not look it up in the recordings. Our local library sold off some CDs a couple of years back and I bought a copy to give to someone who I thought would put it to good use. Could be you, if you're interested.
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by Kenny
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
Having experimented with playing English jigs into a music writing program via a midi keyboard, I'd say that in any group of three quavers, the first is slightly longer and the second slightly shorter to compensate, it's more sort of 'leaning on' the first note. I'd probably describe it as 'gently swung', nearer in feel to Scots than Irish.
It's extremely difficult to describe in words, and not that easy to notate, all double dots and demi-semiquavers. Also, of course, there are regional variations, not to mention variation from player to player. Maybe part of the charm of traditional music is that it's almost impossible to lay down rules.
Perhaps the only certainty is that someone will disagree strongly and tell me I'm talking out of my rse.
However I'm off to a session weekend and by the time I get back I'll be too tired to care!
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by c.g.
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
I play Highland pipes and uilleann pipes, so my observations come from those traditions. In Irish music, jigs usually have six eighth-notes per bar (we're talking double jigs, the kind most often heard) while Highland pipe jigs often contain quarter notes and even dotted quarter notes. So often in a Highland pipe jig you might have only two notes in a bar, while this is rare in Irish jigs. Another difference is that Irish jigs are often propelled by long rolls, that is, three eighth-notes seperated by gracenotes. Highland pipes traditionally do not do this type of thing, but often group notes in twos rather than threes. Of course this is all changing in the Highland piping world, with all the major pipe bands playing loads of borrowed Irish jigs and also newly-composed jigs in the Irish style. I get the CD's of the World Pipe Band Championships each year (showcasing the best and most innovative pipe bands in the world) and band after band will play nothing but Irish jigs or new Irish-style jigs.
About the dotting and cutting, yes, the Highland bagpipe "old-school" way was to dot and cut (as they call it, to "point") jigs, but nowadays that is rarely heard and the jigs flow out in even eighth-notes (as they call it, playing "round").
It's interesting how much a jig can change when it travels across the idioms. Perfect example it "The Jig Of Slurs". This was composed by a Highland piper to highlight the technique Highland pipers call a "slur", which is what uilleann pipers call a "pat", that is a lower gracenote used to seperate a quarternote into two eighth-notes. The Jig Of Slurs therefore, as originally written, progresses almost entirely by pairs of notes. When I heard Matt Molloy's version I was amazed because he entirely changed the tune, replacing all the "slurs" (pairs of notes) with long rolls (groups of three notes). So, from the Highland piping perspective, he had removed all the slurs from the jig of slurs!
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
hehe, yes pipe bands are doing a lot of "Irish"...here is my sons Pipe Band (NCSU) doing their Irish Set...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TiHypMITcA
my son is the little guy to the left of the bass drum
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
IMHO, There is no difference. The most popular "Scottish" jig tunes could be played in any Irish session: Cor Hill, Irish Washerwoman, etc.
On the other hand, reel tunes are a bit different, but again it depends on which tune do you play.
Miki
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by nemethmik
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
of course Scottish tunes can be played in Irish sessions, and vice versa, but it's how they are played that will make the difference
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by Sunnybear
Re: Irish and Scottish jigs.
You'll hear what I mean if you hear, for example, the Highland bagpipe tune Barbara's Jig, the first bar of which only has two notes. Irish double jigs rarely, if ever, have that little movement. It seems to be something like this: Irish double jigs: six eighth-notes per bar. Irish single jigs: quarter-eighth, quarter-eighth. Irish slip jigs and Highland jigs mix these two idioms.
# Posted on June 23rd 2007 by Richard D Cook