Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hello All, Ive been playing the flute, classically taught, for about 10 years (I'm 19 now).
Ive been interested in folk for a few years, mostly from a guitar point of view but Ive tried a few tunes on the flute.
I bought a student level wooden flute last year to try and sound more "folky" than i do on my boehm flute but have only had limited success when playing it.
a silver flute player, through myspace and im forced to admit that my "not folky" tone is the fault of my playing, not of the instrument (though i guess i knew that deep down anyway). Id appreciate some tone and general playing tips, if such a thing is not too abstract and/or subjective to discuss on the world wide web. Has anyone else made a late crossover from classical to folk on the same instrument?
I guess the predictable response, is "play more tunes"? Anything else to say?
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
The best advice I can give you is to buy Grey Larsen's book right away. As a classical player, you will appreciate how he has formatted and explained ITM playing. You will get all your questions answered, and have an enduring resource.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Sorry to contradict you Ailin, but I think it would be a mistake for someone to jump in straight away and buy a book like Grey Larsen's. I know it's a treasure trove of info, but how do you know that bassetrox would want to play in that style? I think that would be too much info, and too channelled to a particular style of playing. Surely a bit of intensive listening to a wide range of flute styles, followed by a couple of lessons from someone (not necessarilly an expert) who is a regular flute (session?) player would be a less daunting intro. I'd suggest getting hold of one or more of the Wooden Flute Obsession recordings as a starter... http://www.worldtrad.org/
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Ottery,
I think that Grey has enough examples of different styles, plus his own encouragement to listen to cover your concerns. A classically-trained flute player can actually play those meticulous transcriptions that Grey has included. However, I entirely agree that listening to the WFO trilogy would be number 2 on my list of suggestions.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Ailin, Ottery, thanks for your input. I will certainly look into that book, it sounds like the kind of starter im after. Im not afraid of something that looks daunting, I'm a reasonably competent player in my own way and I'm quite willing to give it a shot.
Ive come across tracks from the WFO CDs before, they're unfortunately listed as out of print in high street stores so thanks for the link, I'll order them as soon as i have the brass in pocket.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Well, by the sound of it you won't have too much trouble switching over to "folk." To me, what everyone's been saying sounds right. Work on the taps and rolls by incorporating them into tunes that you know/like. One thing I'd suggest is, where you're already an advanced flute player, play tunes you like, not tunes that you think you should be learning because they're beginner tunes. Not that I'm saying for you to go for the hardest sounding tune you hear, but don't waste your time playing beginner tunes that you'll never want to play.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hi Ailin,
you're probably right. My main concern is that someone comes along and says "I want to play Irish Music", and is pointed to (an admittedly terrific) 'Teaching Aid'. Given that bassetrox lives 'In the North of England', here must be a few people that he/she could play with within reasonably easy reach. (ask Slainte!). No matter how comprehensive Grey's book is, it doesn't come close to playing with real people. Which is not to say that Grey's book might not be a worthwhile and useful purchase....
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hey, just to clarify - im grateful to the Gregthepianotuner who messaged me for clearing up the cuts/taps thing. However my original post was meant to give the message "I'd like to keep playing my boehm, but play it more in the ITM style" rather than what shall i do to switch to the other instrument, however i do still intend to persevere with that and your tips to tame the wooden beast are noted
Sorry if that wasnt clear. And yes i avoided using *that* word this time! :P
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Find a real live Irish Flute teacher. And while this should be obvious, listen regulary to ITM and attend a few (decent) sessions now and again. but dont go hog wild crazy on the sessions, at least not until you have a solid foundation.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
I've taught Irish flute workshops over the years, and I've found that it is often quite difficult to get "legit' fluteplayers to sound "Irish". It seems to me that the crux of the matter is a completely different concept of what an individual note means and should sound like. In "classical" flute playing, each note is a precious, individual thing surrounded by "the envelope", that is, it has a beginning/attack, a core, and an end/decay. Each note is individually crafted as it were. In Irish fluteplaying individual notes are not thought of in this way, rather there is a somewhat continuous flow which is articulated with the fingers. It's why, in workshops, I call cuts and pats "digital articulation" rather than "ornamentation". (An ornament per se being something superfluous to the tune which is added for decorative effect. Cuts and pats are not that at all.)
I've had trouble getting "classical" fluteplayers and recorder players to play with this flow, and not tongue every note. I've even had to have these people play with their tongues pressed against the roof of their mouth to prevent them from tongueing, forcing them to use either their fingers or their breath to articulate.
It has nothing to do with the instrument itself- one can sound "classical" on an Irish flute, and sound completely Irish on a Boehm flute.
PS I've been playing Irish flute 30+ years but I'm new to this forum and this is my first post!!!
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
The difference between Irish and Classical (probably amongst other things) is
the lack of vibrato
not tonguing each note (but more legato to borrow a classical word!)
incorporating Irish ornamentation
getting the rhythm right.
My advice is to just listen to players that you like and try to immaculate what you like and incorporate it in to your own playing. There’s nothing like sitting down with a musician that you like and playing a few tunes and listen to what they’re doing.
A lot of flute players also get inspiration and are influenced by Irish pipers and fiddlers too, in relation to ornamentation and melodic variations.
Enjoy
K
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Vibrato is OK - but NOT from the diaphragm, and certainly not as much as in some styles of classical.
The way to get vibrato is to flutter your finges over toneholes that aren't required to be open to get the note your playing. If that made sense. In other words, if I play an A
xxoooo (on a simple system flute or whistle)
You get vibrato by fluttering (rapidly closing and opening the tone holes) with fingers on the bottom hand.
It's a technique probably borrowed from pipers, who cannot really change dynamics that much with air pressure. It's moreidomatic than diaphragm vib.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
I’m not sure that having a background in classical flute is necessarily all negative. Your posture will most likely be better than some traditional players for a start. I took up playing the Bohem flute about five years after I began playing the traditional wooden flute. I already used some tonguing for articulation, though typically much softer than is typical in classical music. (You can get very nice triplets by having the tongue slightly back from the teeth.) I read somewhere (perhaps Fintan Vallely’s Timber: the concert flute tutor?) that tonguing in flute playing is usually much less obvious, using the ‘dhe’ tonguing for articulation rather than the ‘te’ attributed to classical players! (I’m afraid I can’t find the source.)
According to Hammy Hamilton:
‘In the classical tradition [articulation] was always done by tonguing, which amounts to making small movement with the tongue which interrupts the air-stream and separates the notes. The classical tutors went to great lengths to explain how the player should pronounce different syllables such as ti, di, did’ll, and tid’ll to cover different groups of notes. Traditional musicians rarely use the tongue in flute playing, a fact which players from a classical background find disconcerting. The technique which traditional players use to separate the notes is unfortunately rather hard to describe.
It took me years of teaching to realise that in fact it has nothing to do with the diaphragm, which I had long assumed to be the case. In fact it is brought about by a movement of the throat, which is probable best described as an undeveloped cough.’
from: Hammy Hamilton, The Irish Flute Player’s Handbook, p.59
I agree that typically most of the articulation is done with the breath but I don’t think that tonguing is always out of order. (I use it quite a lot, and I think many Scottish tunes really benefit from it. And Jean-Michel Veillon, the remarkable traditional Breton flautist, uses soft tonguing to great effect.
Constant vibrato is a relatively recent phenomenon even in Classical music. It was introduced into violin playing by Fritz Kreisler; in instrumental music before 1900 it was sparingly used. My personal opinion is that the vibrato produced with the diaphragm can be nicer on the ear than that produced with a drumming finger, even though that is the dominant method. The ‘finger vibrato’ involves lowering the pitch of the note by a smidgeon during the vibrato rather than wavering higher & lower as in classical vibrato. Classical vibrato can also be made less pronounced.
As to what is ‘authentic’ in flute playing, the recent notion that pub sessions (especially loud sessions) are the main forum for Irish music has often not been kind to flute music. There is a tendency to play very loudly and very aggressively in order to rise above the loudness of pipes, accordions, fiddles, etc. Perhaps Irish and Scottish music is best heard in houses, or if in large crowds it ought to be miked!
The main problem I find in some classically trained players of Irish music (fiddle as often as flute, and also in many non-classically trained players) is a lack of rhythm in their playing — they got no swing! And as with jazz, playing tunes as they are written can be disastrous. I’d say rhythm is the most important thing to work on, and listening to lots of good music is the best way. (I recommend Matt Molloy, John McKenna, Conal Ó Gráda, Kevin Burke, James Morrison, & Hugh Gillespie.) And to hear a very wild, woody tone, rich in harmonics Conal Ó Gráda is superb! All this said, I know two players (fiddle & flute) trained initially and extensively in classical music (from France & Germany) who play in a very traditional way, though they did devote a lot of time to it.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
I am a super detective and I say that he is in Stockton on Tees! Maybe someone around there knows of sessions. There seem to be none listed for Middlesborough or Stockton (although they probably exist). If you can get into Newcastle then you will find no shortage of sessions and teachers.
Speak to the Sage in Gateshead for advice. They will be able to point you in the direction of someone, probably quite close to you. Good luck.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
You had me there for a moment, but I'm guessing you followed the myspace link in my profile... Yes Im in the borough of stockton on tees - a nice little town called Yarm, but Im moving to York in the autumn term.
In our area there are a couple of folk clubs that i know of, one of which definately holds sessions though i gather its kinda a warmup before the singer-songwriters do their piece. Unfortunately i cant attend either due to other musical commitments. Im planning on making some time for it at Uni though.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hello, Just signed on as a new member of this site. I, too, come from a silver flute background and just started the Irish flute last year. My years of building up breath support have certainly come in handy, but I struggle with the 'tongue--do not tongue' thing. I'm working on it alone, as I can't fit lessons back into my schedule. My teacher hasn't ever said one way or the other is 'best.'
So my questions as a new visitor are: is there a 'right' or 'wrong' ANYTHING in this style of music? What about...copyright versus public domain with regard to collecting tunes to learn? This forum seems so helpful. Thank you very much!
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
It's good to see Richard Cook on this site. I have known him - albeit distantly - since his days with Reel-to-Reel and before. When I first started playing ITM, he was about the only one around in the Southern California area that had a leg to stand on as an Irish-style player (as far as I knew, anyway).
Everything he has said about articulation is true, IMO, but I think getting classical players to stop tonguing is best accomplished by getting them to a simple-system flute. With Boehm, it is rather ingrained in our heads to time the tongue with the pressing of a key. When there are no keys, it seems more natural (at least to me) to slur and also to use the fingers for articulation. I think the simple-system flute is best suited to the style, and it is my opinion that the most successful ITM players of the Boehm do their best to imitate the sound of a keyless flute. Why go through all the trouble? Go for a keyless wooden flute. You'll want to eventually, if you really love ITM. Or even Folk.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Spend a lot of time listening to flute players - Matt Molloy, Michael McGoldrick, Kevin Crawford would be my choices and I'm sure everyone else has different favourite players. One big mistake I have heard from classical players is to learn the tune from the dots without consideration of the style it should be played in...a dead giveaway.
Also I think the aversion to 'folk' may be the way some (not you, I'm sure) classical players refer to 'folk flute' as some kind of inferior style - it's just different strokes for different folks and I know which I'd rather be playing!
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Essentially I would say there probably isn't a specific and definite right and wrong way of playing traditional music. There are certainly various different styles and they tend to be focussed on particular instruments and, historically also geographically. By that I mean that if you are the one box player, for example surrounded by fiddlers then your playing will probably develop to mimic the style on display. Likewise if you are learning the fiddle but you are surrounded by flutes then your style will develop accordingly.
Anyway I am waffling - back on topic.
I can't really speak for the flute. I too had classical flute lessons when I was young but, unfortunately, let it slide. There has always bee a strong debate as to whether you should tongue playing the flute or not, and some will argue the 'no nay never' approach whilst others will say 'occasionally'. There is nothing wrong with tonguing. It is just it should not dominate your playing.
With the whistle (feeling slightly more comfortable now) there are many players who argue for never tonguing and doing all the ornamentation with your fingers. But why? Your tongue can be used to ornament just like anything else. Many Irish players in particular and also lots of Scottish Pipers (because you can't tongue on the pipes) do not tongue. Others do though and use it to great effect. I am pretty sure Brian Finnigan uses his tongue a fair bit. Marc Duff certainly does. Hamish Napier uses lots of tonguing in his whistle playing.
Probably the main differences between traditional styles and classical is that the traditional styles take on board ideas of double tonguing and even triple tonguing. Classical styles like flutter tonguing though are rare. Vibrato is practically never done with the mouth but, instead with the fingers.
Anyway, enough of that.
As far as copyright is concerned it is like anything else. You can collect and learn the tunes without a problem, learning them off a CD or through a session or, as you probably read music, from the manuscript (or the huge database here!) If you want to record anything then the composers, unless the tune is traditional deserve their money. You won't have a problem playing soneone else's tune in a session or on your own though. That is fine - normal - practically essential.
Don't just pick up a collection of tunes though and learn the dots because that will not tell you how it should be played, the sort of ornaments you should consider or the level of swing the tune should have. If you can't get lessons on it then listen to traditional flute players and look at what they do.
Good luck (for the future and in understanding the pile of cr*p I have just written!)
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"Also I think the aversion to 'folk' may be the way some (not you, I'm sure) classical players refer to 'folk flute' as some kind of inferior style - it's just different strokes for different folks and I know which I'd rather be playing!"
Yes you are probably right. Personally I'll play whatever you throw at me (or try anyway!) and enjoy it. Long as you dont want me rapping. :-|
extra heads and flourescent tentacles? Hey with the amount of crap they pump into our air and water we're lucky to get away with just that!
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Thanks for the advice. I've been (instinctively) using what you have all suggested so I must be on the right track! The Session is a great lesson in its own right!
Why keyed Irish flutes? We spent our 25th anniversary in Ireland last month and I was able to take master classes, where my teachers and many session flutists there played with keyed flutes. Just curious.....
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Keyed flutes - To play in more keys.
Keyless flutes are like whistles, they are limited in the keys that you can play in. Adding some keys e.g. c nat or f nat can increase the range of tunes you can play on the flute. They are not boehm system flutes and the keys tend to operate the opposite way round from boehm keys, as in the keys close the holes unless you press down on them, when they open.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
To "No Cause"--thanks for your answer. Now I am intrigued about the pressing down the key thing.My brain is wired like a boehm open-holed flute player, which I've been for 30 years.....old habits die hard!
Sorry if this doesn't fit the discussion--but since I'm new --- how do I use the tunes section? I don't understand the format. Refer me to another discussion if you have to.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
You have an open holed boehm ir58? Mine is fully keyed, but ive a friend who plays one. Can you slide off notes from it like on a whistle? Or does it not work like that.
You basically search for a tune (tunes then search) and then if you're logged in you can download the sheet music and or add it to your tunebook. The tunebook is basically a long list of all the tunes youve chosen so you can print them all out at once, should you so desire.
On the subject of not tonguing, which seems to be the prevailing comment in this thread, If an irish player it doing octave jumps would they tongue those or move between them with the oembouchure? I can do it, just sounds a bit daft in context. I might just be phrasing in a silly way. Can you refer me to an example.
And NCFA, were you meaning that double and triple tonguing are allowed, but not single tonguing in the big uber post. :s
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
No sorry - single tonguing is used too. I can't speak for the flautists/fluters but on the whistle I tend to tongue notes that jump up the octave. It helps the note be more clear. I personally use tonguing in other places though along with cuts and rolls and so forth.
I think by open holed he means the holes under the keys are naturally open - the keys spring up if left alone whereas on a traditional flute they spring down. Although you can of course get boehm flutes with the middle of the keys missing which you block with your fingers.
ir58 - re the keys - essentially the holes are in the same place as the classical flute. IN other words the top hole (nearest the mouth) is the 'b' hole and the one after that is the 'a' and so on. All fingers off would give a c sharp. A c natural key, for example would be a hole on the side of the flute between the 'a' and 'b' holes that normally sits closed. If you put your finger on the 'b' hole you sound a 'b' note with the first point that the air can escape being the 'a' hole - right? If you press down on the c natural key then there is now another hole nearer to the b hole so the windway is shortened and the note sharpens a bit - from 'b' to 'c'. The other keys all effectively work in the same way. The only one that I can think of that is different would be the low c/c# key. Normally an unkeyed wooden flute only goes down to D. To get a lower note then the flute is extended a little and a hole is added to allow the air to escape as normal. When you press the key the windway is extended and the note lowers - exactly the way it would on a classical flute.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
bassetrox,
What I meant was that I own a G'm'hardt open holed silver flute. I sure wish I could do slides on that! In fact I had an Irish session player tell me that she never uses slides. Anyway, I'm going from the 'paper' trained background, etc. as it sounds like you are. NCFA, thanks for the details. I understand that keyed wooden Irish flutes are very expensive, right? I live in the states and out of curiousity went online to look. Wow. Anyone know offhand about prices? I think a keyed one would be helpful since I play with a harpist but money is definitely an issue. By the way, just for the record, I'm a 'she'---stay home mom of four! you are all very helpful...
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
That's another problem with fluteplayers coming from a classical/legit background, playing from the paper. It wouldn't be such an issue, except for the fact that there is simply no written music out there that I've ever seen that even attempts to notate Irish fluteplaying the way it actually is played. I think the gulf between how things are written and how they are played can exist because so few Irish fluteplayers read music or learn tunes from written music. It remains an aural tradition.
It would be possible to write out reels and jigs in such a way that a "classical" fluteplayer, having never even heard Irish music, could sightread the music and get relatively close to how they should sound, but no one troubles to do so. I know it can be done because I've done it- I've experimented with various ways of notating things, and given them to classical players who've never heard Irish music to sightread so that I can discover what they make of it. You have to know their language as it were- what things on paper translate into what sounds. For example, Irish players talk about "the flow" and about not tonguing, but they write the music out as a bunch of seperate eigthnotes which to classical players means that all those notes must be tongued. All you have to do to get them to not tongue is to "tie" or "slur" the notes together. They know how to play legato, and will do so if the music is correctly written. Likewise in Irish books the rythm of rolls is almost always incorrectly notated, and you can't fault a classical player for playing what he's given on the paper. Rolls can be notated correctly, and classical fluteplayers will play them right if they're written right. I've often wondered if there is any market for a book of Irish tunes written out correctly, so that classical players can get somewhat close to a traditional sound just by following the paper.
About vibrato: a top late 19th century orchestral flute player/teacher/writer said that the flute should be played without any vibrato of wavering of the sound whatsoever. It does seem to be a relatively recent development, and classical flute and recorder players' habit of playing a very wide vibrato on every note is as annoying to Irish players as it would be to 19th century classical players. That said, vibrato is always used by uilleann pipers when playing airs, so flute and whistle players are free to use it just as much. I use finger vibrato on notes it works on, a rapid throat vibrato on high notes, and a slower diaphragm vibrato on bottom D.
BTW "flautist" is not a real word- it was coined by a poet for use in one of his poems. People who play flute are flute players or flutists.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"I've often wondered if there is any market for a book of Irish tunes written out correctly, so that classical players can get somewhat close to a traditional sound just by following the paper."
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
If you had 'Irish tunes written out correctly', what would you get out of playing them? Surely you'd end up playing the tune the same way every time through.
I'm sure Grey's book must just show suggestions for decoration, with the idea that you then play it the way you want to.
It's a bit like books showing where Robert Johnson put his fingers on the guitar so that you can replicate it. It completely misses the point. If it is made too precise, folk music dies.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
hmmm.....going without vibrato makes a lot of sense to my ear, because I listen to as much ITM as I can. It really helps and truly is an aural learning process. It helps immensely.
I own the Larsen book and really like it. I do not expect it to supplant just plain listening and imitating (can't stress that enough! It's so fun, right?); however, the book does have progressive exercises, if you will, and slows down the cuts, rolls, etc. and then speeds them up so if you're visual you also have notation there. I've learned a lot of things that my teacher hasn't ever mentioned, but his approach is to have me learn by ear. He's a former classically trained musician and understands my predicament --- anyway, just my opinion on the book.
As for vibrato, It's so difficult to keep a good even pitch without it. Is it a matter of diaphragm (spelling??) support or ....what? Help on this issue would be very beneficial, if anyone has any ideas. sorry so wordy......
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
It is just that some Irish flute players don't like the word 'flautist' because they think it makes them look poncy!
They are also possibly worried about spelling issues seeing as a lot of professional bouzouki players seem incapable of correctly spelling 'bouzouki' and insist on very wrong spellings like 'bazouki' or 'bazooki' or, Good God, the list could go on for ever!
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
You're probably right! You used to get people insisting on calling Irish traditional flute-players 'Fluters', perhaps because 'Harper' rather than 'Harpist' was the norm in Ireland (or perhaps in homage to Percy French!) Quaint, but no thanks!
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
The large OED gives "flutist" as the meaning of "flautist". The earliest recorded date it gives for "flautist" is 1860 "Hawthorne Marb. Faun x. (1883) 109 The flautist poured his breath in quick puffs of jollity", but has "flutist" from 1603.
It would be silly to say that "flautist" is in any way wrong, but the straightforward "flutist" has a better and longer pedigree.
Pedantic as ever,
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Nancy Toff, currently the leading author about the (classical) flute, uses only the terms "flute player" and "flutist". The journal for flute players is called "The Flutist Quarterly". Flautist is only used by non-players.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"Flautist is only used by non-players." Not at all! I’ve seen quite a few music books that oppose the term (for just the reason that it is not archaic) but is still the dominant term for flute-player used by all my classically trained brethren! And besides, ‘flautist’ has elegance beyond compare and, despite its apparently recent introduction into written language, it is commonly found in smallish dictionaries where the gaudier 'flutist' is not. (More archaic does not always mean ‘more-actually-an-English-word’). I’m inclined to think that language ought to be beautiful as well as to perform the more mundane function of communicating basic meaning! I like it, the word stays!
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hmm, apparetly 'flautist' is still the dominant term outside the Americas. And 'fluter' dates from around 1400, who's have thought? The web can keep one constantly amused: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flutist
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hale sterne superne! Hale, in eterne
In God's sight to schyne!
Lucerne in derne, for to discerne
Be glory and grace devyne;
Hodiern, modern, sempitern.."
This in an example of the sort of poetry that spawns words such as "flautist".
It's in the same category as "bagpipist" which pipers don't use. The fact that "flauto" is flute in Italian has nothing to do with it- we don't call bagpipes zampognas.
Flute writers, educators, and professionals do not use the term but of course the unknowing public are free to use any word they wish, such as nucular, supposebly, simular, etc.
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"Flute writers, educators, and professionals do not use the term but of course the unknowing public are free to use any word they wish..."
Eh? I realize that I was the first on the page to write 'flautist', but why not? My flute teacher used the term. It is not incorrect, it is an English word (and all words come from somewhere), and it is used by musicians; Watch! 'Flautist!' What's the big deal? As with adding 'shoulder-rests' on fiddles, what's the urgent need for universal conformity? Look at the frightful mess a fretful hunger for standardization has inflicted on the Irish language! More variety in language say I.
Irish Gaelic used to have words for yes and no, by 1200AD they had disappeared, and now we've got to use the verb; groovy! 'Bearla' used to be the Gaelic for 'language', now it means 'the English language'. Interesting!
As Fowler said, there's no reason why flautist became dominant over flutist, "But it has." (Fowler's Modern English Usage)
Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hello All, Ive been playing the flute, classically taught, for about 10 years (I'm 19 now).
Ive been interested in folk for a few years, mostly from a guitar point of view but Ive tried a few tunes on the flute.
I bought a student level wooden flute last year to try and sound more "folky" than i do on my boehm flute but have only had limited success when playing it.
Recently i was turned onto
http://myspace.com/philippebarnes
a silver flute player, through myspace and im forced to admit that my "not folky" tone is the fault of my playing, not of the instrument (though i guess i knew that deep down anyway). Id appreciate some tone and general playing tips, if such a thing is not too abstract and/or subjective to discuss on the world wide web. Has anyone else made a late crossover from classical to folk on the same instrument?
I guess the predictable response, is "play more tunes"? Anything else to say?
Cheers,
Rowan
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
stop saying folk!
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by tnoumarap
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Don't tongue. Learn how to articulate with cuts and taps.
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
haha did i say folk too many times?:p
i wrote it in bits while i was eating dinner, so yeah its a bit repetitive. Sorry.
Can you explain what you mean by cuts and taps please?
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
The best advice I can give you is to buy Grey Larsen's book right away. As a classical player, you will appreciate how he has formatted and explained ITM playing. You will get all your questions answered, and have an enduring resource.
Do it now. Just Google Grey Larsen.
Now.
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
check out this:
http://www.expertvillage.com/videos/irish-flute-practice-tips-exercise.htm
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by tnoumarap
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Whats the problem with using the word folk?
To me its better than ITM
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by Saint
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
It is folking irritating!!!!!!!!
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Sorry to contradict you Ailin, but I think it would be a mistake for someone to jump in straight away and buy a book like Grey Larsen's. I know it's a treasure trove of info, but how do you know that bassetrox would want to play in that style? I think that would be too much info, and too channelled to a particular style of playing. Surely a bit of intensive listening to a wide range of flute styles, followed by a couple of lessons from someone (not necessarilly an expert) who is a regular flute (session?) player would be a less daunting intro. I'd suggest getting hold of one or more of the Wooden Flute Obsession recordings as a starter...
http://www.worldtrad.org/
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
The answer is blowing in the wind
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by zippydw
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Ottery,
I think that Grey has enough examples of different styles, plus his own encouragement to listen to cover your concerns. A classically-trained flute player can actually play those meticulous transcriptions that Grey has included. However, I entirely agree that listening to the WFO trilogy would be number 2 on my list of suggestions.
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Ailin, Ottery, thanks for your input. I will certainly look into that book, it sounds like the kind of starter im after. Im not afraid of something that looks daunting, I'm a reasonably competent player in my own way and I'm quite willing to give it a shot.
Ive come across tracks from the WFO CDs before, they're unfortunately listed as out of print in high street stores so thanks for the link, I'll order them as soon as i have the brass in pocket.
Cheers everyone.
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Well, by the sound of it you won't have too much trouble switching over to "folk." To me, what everyone's been saying sounds right. Work on the taps and rolls by incorporating them into tunes that you know/like. One thing I'd suggest is, where you're already an advanced flute player, play tunes you like, not tunes that you think you should be learning because they're beginner tunes. Not that I'm saying for you to go for the hardest sounding tune you hear, but don't waste your time playing beginner tunes that you'll never want to play.
# Posted on June 12th 2007 by dannym
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hi Ailin,
you're probably right. My main concern is that someone comes along and says "I want to play Irish Music", and is pointed to (an admittedly terrific) 'Teaching Aid'. Given that bassetrox lives 'In the North of England', here must be a few people that he/she could play with within reasonably easy reach. (ask Slainte!). No matter how comprehensive Grey's book is, it doesn't come close to playing with real people. Which is not to say that Grey's book might not be a worthwhile and useful purchase....
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hey, just to clarify - im grateful to the Gregthepianotuner who messaged me for clearing up the cuts/taps thing. However my original post was meant to give the message "I'd like to keep playing my boehm, but play it more in the ITM style" rather than what shall i do to switch to the other instrument, however i do still intend to persevere with that and your tips to tame the wooden beast are noted
Sorry if that wasnt clear. And yes i avoided using *that* word this time! :P
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Find a real live Irish Flute teacher. And while this should be obvious, listen regulary to ITM and attend a few (decent) sessions now and again. but dont go hog wild crazy on the sessions, at least not until you have a solid foundation.
but a teacher. get teacher pronto.
welcome and good luck!
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by Brendan
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
I've taught Irish flute workshops over the years, and I've found that it is often quite difficult to get "legit' fluteplayers to sound "Irish". It seems to me that the crux of the matter is a completely different concept of what an individual note means and should sound like. In "classical" flute playing, each note is a precious, individual thing surrounded by "the envelope", that is, it has a beginning/attack, a core, and an end/decay. Each note is individually crafted as it were. In Irish fluteplaying individual notes are not thought of in this way, rather there is a somewhat continuous flow which is articulated with the fingers. It's why, in workshops, I call cuts and pats "digital articulation" rather than "ornamentation". (An ornament per se being something superfluous to the tune which is added for decorative effect. Cuts and pats are not that at all.)
I've had trouble getting "classical" fluteplayers and recorder players to play with this flow, and not tongue every note. I've even had to have these people play with their tongues pressed against the roof of their mouth to prevent them from tongueing, forcing them to use either their fingers or their breath to articulate.
It has nothing to do with the instrument itself- one can sound "classical" on an Irish flute, and sound completely Irish on a Boehm flute.
PS I've been playing Irish flute 30+ years but I'm new to this forum and this is my first post!!!
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
The difference between Irish and Classical (probably amongst other things) is
the lack of vibrato
not tonguing each note (but more legato to borrow a classical word!)
incorporating Irish ornamentation
getting the rhythm right.
My advice is to just listen to players that you like and try to immaculate what you like and incorporate it in to your own playing. There’s nothing like sitting down with a musician that you like and playing a few tunes and listen to what they’re doing.
A lot of flute players also get inspiration and are influenced by Irish pipers and fiddlers too, in relation to ornamentation and melodic variations.
Enjoy
K
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by Kess
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
NO vib?
I'm sure I've heard traditional players using vibrato before. :s
On airs and things definately.
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Vibrato is OK - but NOT from the diaphragm, and certainly not as much as in some styles of classical.
The way to get vibrato is to flutter your finges over toneholes that aren't required to be open to get the note your playing. If that made sense. In other words, if I play an A
xxoooo (on a simple system flute or whistle)
You get vibrato by fluttering (rapidly closing and opening the tone holes) with fingers on the bottom hand.
It's a technique probably borrowed from pipers, who cannot really change dynamics that much with air pressure. It's moreidomatic than diaphragm vib.
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by wormdiet
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hey Rowan
Whereabouts in the North are you? I'm Lancashire way but I might be able to sort you out with someone to help you
Roisin
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by RoisinB
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
I’m not sure that having a background in classical flute is necessarily all negative. Your posture will most likely be better than some traditional players for a start. I took up playing the Bohem flute about five years after I began playing the traditional wooden flute. I already used some tonguing for articulation, though typically much softer than is typical in classical music. (You can get very nice triplets by having the tongue slightly back from the teeth.) I read somewhere (perhaps Fintan Vallely’s Timber: the concert flute tutor?) that tonguing in flute playing is usually much less obvious, using the ‘dhe’ tonguing for articulation rather than the ‘te’ attributed to classical players! (I’m afraid I can’t find the source.)
According to Hammy Hamilton:
‘In the classical tradition [articulation] was always done by tonguing, which amounts to making small movement with the tongue which interrupts the air-stream and separates the notes. The classical tutors went to great lengths to explain how the player should pronounce different syllables such as ti, di, did’ll, and tid’ll to cover different groups of notes. Traditional musicians rarely use the tongue in flute playing, a fact which players from a classical background find disconcerting. The technique which traditional players use to separate the notes is unfortunately rather hard to describe.
It took me years of teaching to realise that in fact it has nothing to do with the diaphragm, which I had long assumed to be the case. In fact it is brought about by a movement of the throat, which is probable best described as an undeveloped cough.’
from: Hammy Hamilton, The Irish Flute Player’s Handbook, p.59
I agree that typically most of the articulation is done with the breath but I don’t think that tonguing is always out of order. (I use it quite a lot, and I think many Scottish tunes really benefit from it. And Jean-Michel Veillon, the remarkable traditional Breton flautist, uses soft tonguing to great effect.
Constant vibrato is a relatively recent phenomenon even in Classical music. It was introduced into violin playing by Fritz Kreisler; in instrumental music before 1900 it was sparingly used. My personal opinion is that the vibrato produced with the diaphragm can be nicer on the ear than that produced with a drumming finger, even though that is the dominant method. The ‘finger vibrato’ involves lowering the pitch of the note by a smidgeon during the vibrato rather than wavering higher & lower as in classical vibrato. Classical vibrato can also be made less pronounced.
As to what is ‘authentic’ in flute playing, the recent notion that pub sessions (especially loud sessions) are the main forum for Irish music has often not been kind to flute music. There is a tendency to play very loudly and very aggressively in order to rise above the loudness of pipes, accordions, fiddles, etc. Perhaps Irish and Scottish music is best heard in houses, or if in large crowds it ought to be miked!
The main problem I find in some classically trained players of Irish music (fiddle as often as flute, and also in many non-classically trained players) is a lack of rhythm in their playing — they got no swing! And as with jazz, playing tunes as they are written can be disastrous. I’d say rhythm is the most important thing to work on, and listening to lots of good music is the best way. (I recommend Matt Molloy, John McKenna, Conal Ó Gráda, Kevin Burke, James Morrison, & Hugh Gillespie.) And to hear a very wild, woody tone, rich in harmonics Conal Ó Gráda is superb! All this said, I know two players (fiddle & flute) trained initially and extensively in classical music (from France & Germany) who play in a very traditional way, though they did devote a lot of time to it.
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by neddiescotus
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
I am a super detective and I say that he is in Stockton on Tees! Maybe someone around there knows of sessions. There seem to be none listed for Middlesborough or Stockton (although they probably exist). If you can get into Newcastle then you will find no shortage of sessions and teachers.
Speak to the Sage in Gateshead for advice. They will be able to point you in the direction of someone, probably quite close to you. Good luck.
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
You had me there for a moment, but I'm guessing you followed the myspace link in my profile... Yes Im in the borough of stockton on tees - a nice little town called Yarm, but Im moving to York in the autumn term.
In our area there are a couple of folk clubs that i know of, one of which definately holds sessions though i gather its kinda a warmup before the singer-songwriters do their piece. Unfortunately i cant attend either due to other musical commitments. Im planning on making some time for it at Uni though.
Well detected lol...
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Well when you do make it to York go along to the local folk club and say hi to Stan Graham for me! Can you remember that? It's only a few months away!
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
will do that lol...
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
try durham for sessions......
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by mehere
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
......but if you're coming from Teesside, cut off your extra heads and fluorescent tentacles, they might frighten the women
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
durham/newcastle etc are a bit out of my way tbh - no wheels!
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hello, Just signed on as a new member of this site. I, too, come from a silver flute background and just started the Irish flute last year. My years of building up breath support have certainly come in handy, but I struggle with the 'tongue--do not tongue' thing. I'm working on it alone, as I can't fit lessons back into my schedule. My teacher hasn't ever said one way or the other is 'best.'
So my questions as a new visitor are: is there a 'right' or 'wrong' ANYTHING in this style of music? What about...copyright versus public domain with regard to collecting tunes to learn? This forum seems so helpful. Thank you very much!
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by nolagirl
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
It's good to see Richard Cook on this site. I have known him - albeit distantly - since his days with Reel-to-Reel and before. When I first started playing ITM, he was about the only one around in the Southern California area that had a leg to stand on as an Irish-style player (as far as I knew, anyway).
Everything he has said about articulation is true, IMO, but I think getting classical players to stop tonguing is best accomplished by getting them to a simple-system flute. With Boehm, it is rather ingrained in our heads to time the tongue with the pressing of a key. When there are no keys, it seems more natural (at least to me) to slur and also to use the fingers for articulation. I think the simple-system flute is best suited to the style, and it is my opinion that the most successful ITM players of the Boehm do their best to imitate the sound of a keyless flute. Why go through all the trouble? Go for a keyless wooden flute. You'll want to eventually, if you really love ITM. Or even Folk.
# Posted on June 13th 2007 by Ailin
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Spend a lot of time listening to flute players - Matt Molloy, Michael McGoldrick, Kevin Crawford would be my choices and I'm sure everyone else has different favourite players. One big mistake I have heard from classical players is to learn the tune from the dots without consideration of the style it should be played in...a dead giveaway.
Also I think the aversion to 'folk' may be the way some (not you, I'm sure) classical players refer to 'folk flute' as some kind of inferior style - it's just different strokes for different folks and I know which I'd rather be playing!
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by izzymac
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Essentially I would say there probably isn't a specific and definite right and wrong way of playing traditional music. There are certainly various different styles and they tend to be focussed on particular instruments and, historically also geographically. By that I mean that if you are the one box player, for example surrounded by fiddlers then your playing will probably develop to mimic the style on display. Likewise if you are learning the fiddle but you are surrounded by flutes then your style will develop accordingly.
Anyway I am waffling - back on topic.
I can't really speak for the flute. I too had classical flute lessons when I was young but, unfortunately, let it slide. There has always bee a strong debate as to whether you should tongue playing the flute or not, and some will argue the 'no nay never' approach whilst others will say 'occasionally'. There is nothing wrong with tonguing. It is just it should not dominate your playing.
With the whistle (feeling slightly more comfortable now) there are many players who argue for never tonguing and doing all the ornamentation with your fingers. But why? Your tongue can be used to ornament just like anything else. Many Irish players in particular and also lots of Scottish Pipers (because you can't tongue on the pipes) do not tongue. Others do though and use it to great effect. I am pretty sure Brian Finnigan uses his tongue a fair bit. Marc Duff certainly does. Hamish Napier uses lots of tonguing in his whistle playing.
Probably the main differences between traditional styles and classical is that the traditional styles take on board ideas of double tonguing and even triple tonguing. Classical styles like flutter tonguing though are rare. Vibrato is practically never done with the mouth but, instead with the fingers.
Anyway, enough of that.
As far as copyright is concerned it is like anything else. You can collect and learn the tunes without a problem, learning them off a CD or through a session or, as you probably read music, from the manuscript (or the huge database here!) If you want to record anything then the composers, unless the tune is traditional deserve their money. You won't have a problem playing soneone else's tune in a session or on your own though. That is fine - normal - practically essential.
Don't just pick up a collection of tunes though and learn the dots because that will not tell you how it should be played, the sort of ornaments you should consider or the level of swing the tune should have. If you can't get lessons on it then listen to traditional flute players and look at what they do.
Good luck (for the future and in understanding the pile of cr*p I have just written!)
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Look at how much more concisely izzymac put it!
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"Also I think the aversion to 'folk' may be the way some (not you, I'm sure) classical players refer to 'folk flute' as some kind of inferior style - it's just different strokes for different folks and I know which I'd rather be playing!"
Yes you are probably right. Personally I'll play whatever you throw at me (or try anyway!) and enjoy it. Long as you dont want me rapping. :-|
extra heads and flourescent tentacles? Hey with the amount of crap they pump into our air and water we're lucky to get away with just that!
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Thanks for the advice. I've been (instinctively) using what you have all suggested so I must be on the right track! The Session is a great lesson in its own right!
Why keyed Irish flutes? We spent our 25th anniversary in Ireland last month and I was able to take master classes, where my teachers and many session flutists there played with keyed flutes. Just curious.....
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by nolagirl
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Keyed flutes - To play in more keys.
Keyless flutes are like whistles, they are limited in the keys that you can play in. Adding some keys e.g. c nat or f nat can increase the range of tunes you can play on the flute. They are not boehm system flutes and the keys tend to operate the opposite way round from boehm keys, as in the keys close the holes unless you press down on them, when they open.
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
To "No Cause"--thanks for your answer. Now I am intrigued about the pressing down the key thing.My brain is wired like a boehm open-holed flute player, which I've been for 30 years.....old habits die hard!
Sorry if this doesn't fit the discussion--but since I'm new --- how do I use the tunes section? I don't understand the format. Refer me to another discussion if you have to.
Thanks again.
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by nolagirl
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
You have an open holed boehm ir58? Mine is fully keyed, but ive a friend who plays one. Can you slide off notes from it like on a whistle? Or does it not work like that.
You basically search for a tune (tunes then search) and then if you're logged in you can download the sheet music and or add it to your tunebook. The tunebook is basically a long list of all the tunes youve chosen so you can print them all out at once, should you so desire.
On the subject of not tonguing, which seems to be the prevailing comment in this thread, If an irish player it doing octave jumps would they tongue those or move between them with the oembouchure? I can do it, just sounds a bit daft in context. I might just be phrasing in a silly way. Can you refer me to an example.
And NCFA, were you meaning that double and triple tonguing are allowed, but not single tonguing in the big uber post. :s
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
No sorry - single tonguing is used too. I can't speak for the flautists/fluters but on the whistle I tend to tongue notes that jump up the octave. It helps the note be more clear. I personally use tonguing in other places though along with cuts and rolls and so forth.
I think by open holed he means the holes under the keys are naturally open - the keys spring up if left alone whereas on a traditional flute they spring down. Although you can of course get boehm flutes with the middle of the keys missing which you block with your fingers.
ir58 - re the keys - essentially the holes are in the same place as the classical flute. IN other words the top hole (nearest the mouth) is the 'b' hole and the one after that is the 'a' and so on. All fingers off would give a c sharp. A c natural key, for example would be a hole on the side of the flute between the 'a' and 'b' holes that normally sits closed. If you put your finger on the 'b' hole you sound a 'b' note with the first point that the air can escape being the 'a' hole - right? If you press down on the c natural key then there is now another hole nearer to the b hole so the windway is shortened and the note sharpens a bit - from 'b' to 'c'. The other keys all effectively work in the same way. The only one that I can think of that is different would be the low c/c# key. Normally an unkeyed wooden flute only goes down to D. To get a lower note then the flute is extended a little and a hole is added to allow the air to escape as normal. When you press the key the windway is extended and the note lowers - exactly the way it would on a classical flute.
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
bassetrox,
What I meant was that I own a G'm'hardt open holed silver flute. I sure wish I could do slides on that! In fact I had an Irish session player tell me that she never uses slides. Anyway, I'm going from the 'paper' trained background, etc. as it sounds like you are. NCFA, thanks for the details. I understand that keyed wooden Irish flutes are very expensive, right? I live in the states and out of curiousity went online to look. Wow. Anyone know offhand about prices? I think a keyed one would be helpful since I play with a harpist but money is definitely an issue. By the way, just for the record, I'm a 'she'---stay home mom of four! you are all very helpful...
# Posted on June 14th 2007 by nolagirl
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
That's another problem with fluteplayers coming from a classical/legit background, playing from the paper. It wouldn't be such an issue, except for the fact that there is simply no written music out there that I've ever seen that even attempts to notate Irish fluteplaying the way it actually is played. I think the gulf between how things are written and how they are played can exist because so few Irish fluteplayers read music or learn tunes from written music. It remains an aural tradition.
It would be possible to write out reels and jigs in such a way that a "classical" fluteplayer, having never even heard Irish music, could sightread the music and get relatively close to how they should sound, but no one troubles to do so. I know it can be done because I've done it- I've experimented with various ways of notating things, and given them to classical players who've never heard Irish music to sightread so that I can discover what they make of it. You have to know their language as it were- what things on paper translate into what sounds. For example, Irish players talk about "the flow" and about not tonguing, but they write the music out as a bunch of seperate eigthnotes which to classical players means that all those notes must be tongued. All you have to do to get them to not tongue is to "tie" or "slur" the notes together. They know how to play legato, and will do so if the music is correctly written. Likewise in Irish books the rythm of rolls is almost always incorrectly notated, and you can't fault a classical player for playing what he's given on the paper. Rolls can be notated correctly, and classical fluteplayers will play them right if they're written right. I've often wondered if there is any market for a book of Irish tunes written out correctly, so that classical players can get somewhat close to a traditional sound just by following the paper.
About vibrato: a top late 19th century orchestral flute player/teacher/writer said that the flute should be played without any vibrato of wavering of the sound whatsoever. It does seem to be a relatively recent development, and classical flute and recorder players' habit of playing a very wide vibrato on every note is as annoying to Irish players as it would be to 19th century classical players. That said, vibrato is always used by uilleann pipers when playing airs, so flute and whistle players are free to use it just as much. I use finger vibrato on notes it works on, a rapid throat vibrato on high notes, and a slower diaphragm vibrato on bottom D.
BTW "flautist" is not a real word- it was coined by a poet for use in one of his poems. People who play flute are flute players or flutists.
# Posted on June 15th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"I've often wondered if there is any market for a book of Irish tunes written out correctly, so that classical players can get somewhat close to a traditional sound just by following the paper."
I am told that grey larsen's book does that?
# Posted on June 15th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
If you had 'Irish tunes written out correctly', what would you get out of playing them? Surely you'd end up playing the tune the same way every time through.
I'm sure Grey's book must just show suggestions for decoration, with the idea that you then play it the way you want to.
It's a bit like books showing where Robert Johnson put his fingers on the guitar so that you can replicate it. It completely misses the point. If it is made too precise, folk music dies.
# Posted on June 15th 2007 by Ottery
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
hmmm.....going without vibrato makes a lot of sense to my ear, because I listen to as much ITM as I can. It really helps and truly is an aural learning process. It helps immensely.
I own the Larsen book and really like it. I do not expect it to supplant just plain listening and imitating (can't stress that enough! It's so fun, right?); however, the book does have progressive exercises, if you will, and slows down the cuts, rolls, etc. and then speeds them up so if you're visual you also have notation there. I've learned a lot of things that my teacher hasn't ever mentioned, but his approach is to have me learn by ear. He's a former classically trained musician and understands my predicament --- anyway, just my opinion on the book.
As for vibrato, It's so difficult to keep a good even pitch without it. Is it a matter of diaphragm (spelling??) support or ....what? Help on this issue would be very beneficial, if anyone has any ideas. sorry so wordy......
# Posted on June 15th 2007 by nolagirl
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
'Flautist', correct word or not?
"BTW 'flautist' is not a real word- it was coined by a poet for use in one of his poems. People who play flute are flute players or flutists.!"
'Flautist' comes from the Italian for flute-player 'Flautista', and is a perfectly good English word!
# Posted on June 15th 2007 by neddiescotus
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
It is just that some Irish flute players don't like the word 'flautist' because they think it makes them look poncy!
They are also possibly worried about spelling issues seeing as a lot of professional bouzouki players seem incapable of correctly spelling 'bouzouki' and insist on very wrong spellings like 'bazouki' or 'bazooki' or, Good God, the list could go on for ever!
# Posted on June 15th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
You're probably right! You used to get people insisting on calling Irish traditional flute-players 'Fluters', perhaps because 'Harper' rather than 'Harpist' was the norm in Ireland (or perhaps in homage to Percy French!) Quaint, but no thanks!
# Posted on June 15th 2007 by neddiescotus
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
The large OED gives "flutist" as the meaning of "flautist". The earliest recorded date it gives for "flautist" is 1860 "Hawthorne Marb. Faun x. (1883) 109 The flautist poured his breath in quick puffs of jollity", but has "flutist" from 1603.
It would be silly to say that "flautist" is in any way wrong, but the straightforward "flutist" has a better and longer pedigree.
Pedantic as ever,
# Posted on June 15th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Nancy Toff, currently the leading author about the (classical) flute, uses only the terms "flute player" and "flutist". The journal for flute players is called "The Flutist Quarterly". Flautist is only used by non-players.
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"Flautist is only used by non-players." Not at all! I’ve seen quite a few music books that oppose the term (for just the reason that it is not archaic) but is still the dominant term for flute-player used by all my classically trained brethren! And besides, ‘flautist’ has elegance beyond compare and, despite its apparently recent introduction into written language, it is commonly found in smallish dictionaries where the gaudier 'flutist' is not. (More archaic does not always mean ‘more-actually-an-English-word’). I’m inclined to think that language ought to be beautiful as well as to perform the more mundane function of communicating basic meaning! I like it, the word stays!
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by neddiescotus
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hmm, apparetly 'flautist' is still the dominant term outside the Americas. And 'fluter' dates from around 1400, who's have thought? The web can keep one constantly amused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flutist
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by neddiescotus
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
Hale sterne superne! Hale, in eterne
In God's sight to schyne!
Lucerne in derne, for to discerne
Be glory and grace devyne;
Hodiern, modern, sempitern.."
This in an example of the sort of poetry that spawns words such as "flautist".
It's in the same category as "bagpipist" which pipers don't use. The fact that "flauto" is flute in Italian has nothing to do with it- we don't call bagpipes zampognas.
Flute writers, educators, and professionals do not use the term but of course the unknowing public are free to use any word they wish, such as nucular, supposebly, simular, etc.
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by Richard D Cook
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"we don't call bagpipes zampognas"
True, but early italian writers wrote for flute but not bagpipes... :p
Fluter is my personal favourite, simply cos for some reason it amuses me.
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by bassetrox
Re: Folk Flute Tips - crossover from classical to folk.
"Flute writers, educators, and professionals do not use the term but of course the unknowing public are free to use any word they wish..."
Eh? I realize that I was the first on the page to write 'flautist', but why not? My flute teacher used the term. It is not incorrect, it is an English word (and all words come from somewhere), and it is used by musicians; Watch! 'Flautist!' What's the big deal? As with adding 'shoulder-rests' on fiddles, what's the urgent need for universal conformity? Look at the frightful mess a fretful hunger for standardization has inflicted on the Irish language! More variety in language say I.
Irish Gaelic used to have words for yes and no, by 1200AD they had disappeared, and now we've got to use the verb; groovy! 'Bearla' used to be the Gaelic for 'language', now it means 'the English language'. Interesting!
As Fowler said, there's no reason why flautist became dominant over flutist, "But it has." (Fowler's Modern English Usage)
# Posted on June 17th 2007 by neddiescotus