Next weekend, a long w'end, there is a local folk festival. Wooppie!! You little beauty! It is only 130 kms away, and it only happens so close every two years. In between it is approx 1,500 kms away although it is still considered local.
Anyway, I've been getting ready for it. Got me camping stuff out to air, because I will be camping near the venue, a resort with a roaring log fire for patrons and there will be a heated marquee for the performances. Its winter and because we are semi arid and surrounded by deserts, it can get very cold in tents at night, although being quite warm and pleasant during the day.
The problem is that in prep for next w'end I ordered some Zyec synthetic strings (in recognition of possible temp extremes) online, and these came on Friday. When I was changing them on the "knock about" fiddle that I intended to take, the D peg went all funny and will not stay wound up fer love or money. I tried the peg paste and talc tricks, but nothing seems to be working.
Also, last week I took delivery of this lemon bought on Ebay - "no chips or cracks" - but with a 4.5 cm crack where the ribs have come away from the back plate around the end pin, and the end pin, the top nut and the pegs all fell off when I cut away the strings it was all held together with!!!! So, what has happened is that I now have four fiddles (3 acoustic and 1 silent electric) and not one fit to take to the festival. The old girl, I wouldn't take because of the temp changes and she also has a dicey A peg that takes a lot of fiddling to make it stay wound up. All the fiddles have different size pegs!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, I really do want to have a fiddle to take next w'end, and sending the knock about one away to get fixed is not an option because I would be lucky to get it back in two months. There is no luthier for 1,500 km radius.
Has this ever happened to you? And what can I do in the short term so I have something to play at the festival? I would dearly love to partake of the opportunity to get a few tunes in at the festival, in the bush or around the fire in the resort. Don't think I could bear to wait another two years fer the opportunity to come around again.
So, please - all suggestions gratefully received.
Cheers
(PS: It needs to be a temporary repair I can do myself)
PPS: Would steaming the peg make it fatter and more inclined to stay put? It is very shiny at the moment and even the paste wouldn't stop on it. Crikey! NEED a quick solution. Desperate.
Clear Drops,
You are in a pickle, for sure. Not having a luthier nearby and time being of the essence, I'd forget the electric and the ebay paperweight you just "bought" and go with the other two.
Can you buy some chalk? That will work on the pegs. If not, a liberal coat of rosin on the peg will help it stay. Forget steaming them; they are made of ebony and will not move.
Failing that, can you get ahold of some of the teflon tape that plumbers use for pipes? That will surely make those pegs stay in place temporarily.
You say the pegs are very shiny- I might be tempted to run a bit of sandpaper over the ends to provide some well-needed traction. Good luck to you and let us know how things worked out for you!
Why not try this as a quick fix: dissolve some brown sugar in some water in a small bowl until you have a sticky solution. Take the peg out and apply the sticky stuff liberally. Now wind the peg back up and wait until the solution dries. You'll probably find that the rough dried sugar now holds the peg in nicely.
Thank you Greg, I really appreciate your suggestions. I've got plumbing tape amazingly (do me own emergency plumbing)! Can give the rosin and the plumbing tape and the sandpaper a try.
Will let you know. Thanks a million again.
I think I'll use the useless paperweighty thingy as a bat.
Anyone fer cricket?
I wouldn't sandpaper the peg if I were you, as it will probably damage it permanently, even if it helps in the short term.
Something that was recommended to me a very long time ago, and I've never seen why it works - but it does - is ... graphite. I know this is normally considered good for *lubricating* the pegs, but, amazingly, it also helps them stick.
Get a 3b pencil (are they called that in Oz? - soft anyway) and plaster the peg all over with it, holding the pencil tip sideways on to the peg. As I say, why it works, I can't see. But it does.
Oooooo. I missed your post Mark. It snuck in.
Guys, the rosin didn't work. The plumbers tape didn't work. The two together didn't work. I roughed up the peg a bit with a rough file (vegetable grater actually). Maybe the peg paste and the plumber's tape together might work.
Now the E has sprung too!!
This is crazy!!
And I'm off right now to get some brown sugar.
Is it the synthetic strings? I wonder? Too blinkin springy?
I dont know about teflon tape but that white 'tape' that plumbers use might help.
Might it not be an idea to get a full set of 'fine' tuners fitted at the other end so you dont have to adjust the pegs so often .
I'm concerned at the 'roughing up' of the pegs, scraper. Dave's suggestion of getting a full set of fine tuners is excellent, if you haven't already got them.
Meanwhile, I am trying my best to just send positive thoughts through the ether so your pegs come through for you when you need them.
I really hope you have fun, and lots of playing at the festival, scraper.
Just a small point, and you're perfectly at liberty to shout, "Duh! of course I am!", but you are giving the peg a good inward push as you wind up the string, aren't you? Push the scroll against the palm of your other hand, twist and push. I've got 6 fiddles kicking around the house, most of which are matchwood, and I've always found you can get a peg to hold. The traditional things to use are chalk to give the peg more grip and hard soap to make it turn a bit better, and a combination of the two can get it right (that's unless you have a crack in the peg box, which can be caused by pushing too hard, so don't get too rough with it! Artists' pastel is finer than chalk and you can get a colour match. Good luck and I hope you fix it!
What has happened here? Is it the synthetic strings I wonder? Has the fiddle got dried out or something? I've owned this fiddle for over 30 years and never had an issue like this. I know how to tune with the pegs (not that I use the pegs very often - have fine tuners for fine-tuning - usually all that's necessary between string changes), pull the pegs out a bit turn the peg and gently put back in till the peg takes hold. I've got the strings running straight, graphite in the groves at the nut and on the bridge. Can't think what is wrong. Disaster.
Sorry Ben, I found I had two 2B pencils at home in the filing cabinet. The graphite didn't work on the D peg, and the E peg has definitely gone out too. It won't stay in now either. Tried it with the graphite as well. Now ... on to the brown sugar. Will let you know.
Cross posted again. Thanks Richard. Yes, I am giving a good inward push - they just aren't catching. No pegbox cracks that I can see, although there is a bit of gouge on the E and the little hole that takes the end of the string is right at the inside of the pegbox on the D. Could this be the problem? The set up is the same I have been using fer a decade. Only the strings are new - giving the synthetic core Zyex a try (the blurb said they were good for temp extremes). Could only get Pirastro Piranito in town and they are 'orrible.
By the way, I am pretty sure the pegs are hardwood. They have a bit of a grain anyway and they aren't black. The old girl has thick ebony pegs, and the soon to be a cricket bat has finer ebony pegs, but not this knock about one.
I have spent tooooo much time on this today already. I have 80+ assignments that have to be marked and returned by tomorrow. Eeeeeeeeek!
Must get down to them. I really appreciate your help. Am flying to Darwin for a few days at the end of the month, but I don't think there is a luthier there either, unfortunately!
You might try contacting the nearest symphony orchestra or university music department and ask where they go for repairs, then mail your fiddle to get it right once and for all. There must be many small shops in Darwin that could help you.
Beware of advice... its worth what you paid for it...
Teflon is potentially the slipperiest material we have. Two pieces together has the same coefficient of friction as wet ice on wet ice. Teflon tape is great for putting in threads, because it is tough and soft and fills gaps. But it is a lubricant. Its use in this area is risible.
Graphite is also a lubricant.
Rosin and brown sugar are forms of glue. More likely to work than lubricants.
Roughing up the surface of the peg is interesting. The most important aspect of a tapered pin is that it should have as much surface area contacting as possible. And the rougher the surface the less contact you have. When "roughing" a piece of wood hoping for friction adhesion you need to remove the glaze, not create lumps and bumps that might catch.
Try this... Smooth over the remains from the use of the potato peeler, and deglaze the peg with the sandpaper. That is, rub it all over just enough to remove the shiny look. Clean off the remains of the graphite, teflon, sugar from the holes. Form a small piece of very very fine sandpaper (1200 grit) around the peg and deglaze the holes in the peg box using the peg to hold the paper out against the box hole. This may be hard to do in the inner hole. Then try the deglazed peg in the hole. Don't saw away at the hole by hand without a former of the exact same taper (ie. the peg) as you will reduce contact area.
Try to take off as little wood as you can. None is ideal. As soon as the shiny look has gone and the dull look is uniform you are done.
Clear Drops, your problem sounds very much like one I had a few months ago with my fiddle. The G peg got to the point that it would not stick for love nor money. It was shiny and I was pushing it in so hard I was afraid I would crack the pegbox. And all the other pegs weren't much better. Tuning was a nightmare and took the fun out of playing.
Turns out the entire pegbox needed rebushing. The pegs weren't making good contact with the pegholes---one way to check this is to take the peg, turn it in the peghole very fast a few times, and then hold it to your lips to feel where the friction has made it warm. My peg wasn't warm at all at the end, so I knew it was trying to catch only at the top, and it wasn't working.
I took mine back to the shop where I bought it and they fixed it for free, but normally this is a pretty expensive repair. Since you say this is your "knock-about" fiddle, if I were you, I'd do whatever you have to do to fix it for next week (the sugar solution sounds interesting) and then send it in and have some Perfection Pegs installed---I'm told that's about a US$125 job---you'll never worry about your pegs again. Good luck!
Thanks Cag,
Haven't any potatoes at the moment, and I have to mark these assignments. Tomorrow, I'll give it a go.
And thank you kennedy, yes, this sounds like the problem, only I didn't realise I had a problem until I changed the strings because I use fine tuners and they have been enough to tune between string changes.
So, the pegbox needs rebushing, and I looked up the Perfection Pegs and they look promising. It is time the knock about fiddle was taken to the luthier - its done me over 30 years, so that's pretty good I recon considering it was cheap Chinese with no monitary value. I could order the PP's online and take them with the fid to the luthier.
Might have to reconcile to going to the festival just to listen if I can't glue the pegs in temporarily in range of the fine tuners.
Thanks all - have to get down to marking now. More than enough time given to the prob today in the circumstances.
Cheers
Yeah, graphite is a lubricant, that's the point.
The (admittedly counterintuitive, but effective) idea is that pencil lead lets you jam the friction peg in farther, so it holds better. This wouldn't work if the peg box were metal, but as wood has some give I always recommend graphite over applications you actually have to buy It's always worked fine for me, and I have to deal with some terrible instruments sometimes.
Let me know about those perfection pegs in 10 years' time - please! Not to be a Luddite, but it seems like every quarter century some guy comes up with a way to do away with friction pegs forever. They last for a few years and then start sliding. Sometimes the old tech is there because it works. If perfection pegs are still working in a decade, though, they may be on to something.
I *have* just had another thought. It's to do with the fact that you have just changed strings. Try this:
Wind the string in such a manner that the string is on the 'outside' of the peg box, thus pulling the peg tighter into the box the more you turn it. For instance, for the D string the string would wind to the left and go almost tight up against the left hand side of the peg box, and for the E string it would wind to the right and go almost tight up against the right hand side of the peg box.
I really really hope something works for you soon.
Why doesn't someone make fiddles with machine heads and do away with the whole inefficient process once and for all? ....
After all, millions of guitarists can't be wrong, can they?
We think along similar lines benhall... I just hope it isn't a harline fracture causing the pegs to slip. The other thing said previously also came to mind, kennedy's statement, about rebushing and a new set of pegs. But, I have to say, if you've a music store nearby, renting an old banger, or from a school, since it is old bangers you're considering taking, might not be such a bad idea. At least you'd have something to take. Inspired Rook!
Could it be that the new strings are actually slipping on the smooth peg surfaces, and so not holding? I had this happen a few years when I fitted a new set of Spirocores (steel-cored) to my cello. The A and D just wouldn't grip on the pegs and I could actually see them slipping as the pitch of the strings went down. Solution: I roughened, very slightly, the region of each peg where the string goes; it worked.
I believe machine heads are available for the fiddle, but they are rare. I've seen them on a few cellos in my time, but cello strings are at much higher tensions than fiddle strings, and some people can have physical problems in manually turning cello pegs fitted with synthetic or gut-core strings - micro-tuners on a cello tail-piece aren't particularly helpful for a big re-tune in those cases.
I have wondered why fiddles don't generally have machine heads. A few reasons come to mind,
1. The fiddle pegbox and scroll assembly is often rightly considered a work of art by the luthier who makes it. He or she wouldn't be best pleased to see the pegbox messed around with metal plates and screws going into the wood. Most fiddle owners may very well feel the same.
2. The pegbox and scroll, along with the neck, are part of the natural acoustic set-up of the fiddle. Making the pegbox heavier would alter the frequency response of the neck and therefore the tonal response of the instrument. You can check this for yourself by bowing a steady note on an open string and then gripping the pegbox or the neck tightly; you should be able to hear the tone deaden slightly. This phenomenon is also another very good reason for getting rid of the dreaded left-hand "death grip"!
3. A heavier pegbox would presumably make the instrument more tiring to hold, with that extra weight being concentrated in a region as far as possible from the player. Muscular tension problems in neck and shoulders could conceivably ensue. These problems don't arise in the guitar or cello for machine head reasons because those instruments aren't held and supported the same way a fiddle is.
"well-maintained friction pegs do work very well" - that's true enough. I know a concert soloist who tunes the Helicors on his concert violin from the pegs.
Weeoooooo. The brown sugar worked a treat, thanks Mark! Locked solid, but then the D Zyex synth string, by this time was so limp I couldn't get it through the hole in the peg any more (I had already shortened it twice in the numerous attempts to get it through). Too much winding and unwinding, threading and unthreading - it was stuffed and I hadn't even got to play it. So, had to change all to cheap steel core strings and blow me down then I broke the fine tuner on the D! Into the cupboard and found a spare tailpiece with working tuners. Pays never to throw anything away! So it looks as though I might have a fiddle that works at least for the festival (even if I don't like the scratchy sound of the strings). So getting some tunes in at the festival is on again. My thanks to you all. Makes me feel all emotional that you were so helpful to an old scraper in Central Oz. Will think of you all every tune I get (assuming I get some).
A million thank yous.
Cheers
Problems in persuading a used string through the hole in the peg? I know, I've been there. It's always the A, of course, in the furthest and most inaccessible part of the peg box
The solution is to use a pair of tweezers that you can carry in your fiddle case. Works a treat every time!
The sugar thing is a tried and tested method for making the tuning pegs stick of an instrument called the kora, played by tribespeople in parts of Africa such as Mali. I'm not joking - I'm serious. That's where I got the idea.
PS: There's a strings repair shop in Darwin, a guitar shop - will contact them and have my fingers crossed they will be able to fix the knock about when I go up in a few weeks.
PPS: Had to laugh at the thought of being able to hire a fiddle around here - ha ha! And a symphony orchestra! Tee hee! Oh well!
Core Mark, I did wonder how a 'tina player could come up with something so radical.
Danny, there is a music shop but no luthier. In a few weeks I am flying up to Darwin for a few days for a conference.
Have the Northern Territory yellow pages open at "Musical instrument makers &/or repairers". There are four entries, the first in Brisbane Qld (ha!), the guitar shop with "string instrument repairs and supplies", then two woodwind repairers. Sorry, on looking the last one says "service and repairs to all woodwind plus brass and bowed strings" Palmerston. That sounds like the place to take it. I've only been to Darwin once before to attend the same conference a couple of years ago. Didn't get to see anything of Darwin that trip, but I have an extra day this time.
I've tried to tell you guys .... Didn't you come to the Alice when you visited Oz, Danny? (Nobody ever does - people go to Sydney, Melbourne, Brissy and forget about the centre.) There's this highway that goes from Port Augusta in South Australia north to Darwin and about half way between Adelaide and Darwin is Alice Springs, a nice place with a pop of 28-29,000, not much of anything but the occasional roadhouse, a few towns, road trains, kangaroos, cattle and wild camels for around 1,500 kms either north or south. And unsealed roads across deserts east and west.
so, CD, did you fix the fiddle? I know nothing about fiddles, though i did take up the cello for a while. love the cello. My thoughts have already been offered by others, ruffing up both the beg and hole and pushing in while tuning, then fine tuning.
Take a cheep whistle, sing, or better yet, risk your good fiddle.
Hope it all works out. takair jb (ed)
!@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
!@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Next weekend, a long w'end, there is a local folk festival. Wooppie!! You little beauty! It is only 130 kms away, and it only happens so close every two years. In between it is approx 1,500 kms away although it is still considered local.
Anyway, I've been getting ready for it. Got me camping stuff out to air, because I will be camping near the venue, a resort with a roaring log fire for patrons and there will be a heated marquee for the performances. Its winter and because we are semi arid and surrounded by deserts, it can get very cold in tents at night, although being quite warm and pleasant during the day.
The problem is that in prep for next w'end I ordered some Zyec synthetic strings (in recognition of possible temp extremes) online, and these came on Friday. When I was changing them on the "knock about" fiddle that I intended to take, the D peg went all funny and will not stay wound up fer love or money. I tried the peg paste and talc tricks, but nothing seems to be working.
Also, last week I took delivery of this lemon bought on Ebay - "no chips or cracks" - but with a 4.5 cm crack where the ribs have come away from the back plate around the end pin, and the end pin, the top nut and the pegs all fell off when I cut away the strings it was all held together with!!!! So, what has happened is that I now have four fiddles (3 acoustic and 1 silent electric) and not one fit to take to the festival. The old girl, I wouldn't take because of the temp changes and she also has a dicey A peg that takes a lot of fiddling to make it stay wound up. All the fiddles have different size pegs!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, I really do want to have a fiddle to take next w'end, and sending the knock about one away to get fixed is not an option because I would be lucky to get it back in two months. There is no luthier for 1,500 km radius.
Has this ever happened to you? And what can I do in the short term so I have something to play at the festival? I would dearly love to partake of the opportunity to get a few tunes in at the festival, in the bush or around the fire in the resort. Don't think I could bear to wait another two years fer the opportunity to come around again.
So, please - all suggestions gratefully received.
Cheers
(PS: It needs to be a temporary repair I can do myself)
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Clear Drops
PPS: Would steaming the peg make it fatter and more inclined to stay put? It is very shiny at the moment and even the paste wouldn't stop on it. Crikey! NEED a quick solution. Desperate.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Clear Drops,
You are in a pickle, for sure. Not having a luthier nearby and time being of the essence, I'd forget the electric and the ebay paperweight you just "bought" and go with the other two.
Can you buy some chalk? That will work on the pegs. If not, a liberal coat of rosin on the peg will help it stay. Forget steaming them; they are made of ebony and will not move.
Failing that, can you get ahold of some of the teflon tape that plumbers use for pipes? That will surely make those pegs stay in place temporarily.
You say the pegs are very shiny- I might be tempted to run a bit of sandpaper over the ends to provide some well-needed traction. Good luck to you and let us know how things worked out for you!
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Why not try this as a quick fix: dissolve some brown sugar in some water in a small bowl until you have a sticky solution. Take the peg out and apply the sticky stuff liberally. Now wind the peg back up and wait until the solution dries. You'll probably find that the rough dried sugar now holds the peg in nicely.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Dow
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Thank you Greg, I really appreciate your suggestions. I've got plumbing tape amazingly (do me own emergency plumbing)! Can give the rosin and the plumbing tape and the sandpaper a try.
Will let you know. Thanks a million again.
I think I'll use the useless paperweighty thingy as a bat.
Anyone fer cricket?
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
I wouldn't sandpaper the peg if I were you, as it will probably damage it permanently, even if it helps in the short term.
Something that was recommended to me a very long time ago, and I've never seen why it works - but it does - is ... graphite. I know this is normally considered good for *lubricating* the pegs, but, amazingly, it also helps them stick.
Get a 3b pencil (are they called that in Oz? - soft anyway) and plaster the peg all over with it, holding the pencil tip sideways on to the peg. As I say, why it works, I can't see. But it does.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Oooooo. I missed your post Mark. It snuck in.
Guys, the rosin didn't work. The plumbers tape didn't work. The two together didn't work. I roughed up the peg a bit with a rough file (vegetable grater actually). Maybe the peg paste and the plumber's tape together might work.
Now the E has sprung too!!
This is crazy!!
And I'm off right now to get some brown sugar.
Is it the synthetic strings? I wonder? Too blinkin springy?
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
And I missed yours too Benhall.1. Okay I'll get a graphite pencil at the shops too. Thanks.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
I dont know about teflon tape but that white 'tape' that plumbers use might help.
Might it not be an idea to get a full set of 'fine' tuners fitted at the other end so you dont have to adjust the pegs so often .
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by bazouki dave
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
I'm concerned at the 'roughing up' of the pegs, scraper. Dave's suggestion of getting a full set of fine tuners is excellent, if you haven't already got them.
Meanwhile, I am trying my best to just send positive thoughts through the ether so your pegs come through for you when you need them.
I really hope you have fun, and lots of playing at the festival, scraper.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Just a small point, and you're perfectly at liberty to shout, "Duh! of course I am!", but you are giving the peg a good inward push as you wind up the string, aren't you? Push the scroll against the palm of your other hand, twist and push. I've got 6 fiddles kicking around the house, most of which are matchwood, and I've always found you can get a peg to hold. The traditional things to use are chalk to give the peg more grip and hard soap to make it turn a bit better, and a combination of the two can get it right (that's unless you have a crack in the peg box, which can be caused by pushing too hard, so don't get too rough with it! Artists' pastel is finer than chalk and you can get a colour match. Good luck and I hope you fix it!
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by RichardB
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
What has happened here? Is it the synthetic strings I wonder? Has the fiddle got dried out or something? I've owned this fiddle for over 30 years and never had an issue like this. I know how to tune with the pegs (not that I use the pegs very often - have fine tuners for fine-tuning - usually all that's necessary between string changes), pull the pegs out a bit turn the peg and gently put back in till the peg takes hold. I've got the strings running straight, graphite in the groves at the nut and on the bridge. Can't think what is wrong. Disaster.
Sorry Ben, I found I had two 2B pencils at home in the filing cabinet. The graphite didn't work on the D peg, and the E peg has definitely gone out too. It won't stay in now either. Tried it with the graphite as well. Now ... on to the brown sugar. Will let you know.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Cross posted again. Thanks Richard. Yes, I am giving a good inward push - they just aren't catching. No pegbox cracks that I can see, although there is a bit of gouge on the E and the little hole that takes the end of the string is right at the inside of the pegbox on the D. Could this be the problem? The set up is the same I have been using fer a decade. Only the strings are new - giving the synthetic core Zyex a try (the blurb said they were good for temp extremes). Could only get Pirastro Piranito in town and they are 'orrible.
By the way, I am pretty sure the pegs are hardwood. They have a bit of a grain anyway and they aren't black. The old girl has thick ebony pegs, and the soon to be a cricket bat has finer ebony pegs, but not this knock about one.
I have spent tooooo much time on this today already. I have 80+ assignments that have to be marked and returned by tomorrow. Eeeeeeeeek!
Must get down to them. I really appreciate your help. Am flying to Darwin for a few days at the end of the month, but I don't think there is a luthier there either, unfortunately!
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Clear Drops,
You might try contacting the nearest symphony orchestra or university music department and ask where they go for repairs, then mail your fiddle to get it right once and for all. There must be many small shops in Darwin that could help you.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Beware of advice... its worth what you paid for it...
Teflon is potentially the slipperiest material we have. Two pieces together has the same coefficient of friction as wet ice on wet ice. Teflon tape is great for putting in threads, because it is tough and soft and fills gaps. But it is a lubricant. Its use in this area is risible.
Graphite is also a lubricant.
Rosin and brown sugar are forms of glue. More likely to work than lubricants.
Roughing up the surface of the peg is interesting. The most important aspect of a tapered pin is that it should have as much surface area contacting as possible. And the rougher the surface the less contact you have. When "roughing" a piece of wood hoping for friction adhesion you need to remove the glaze, not create lumps and bumps that might catch.
Try this... Smooth over the remains from the use of the potato peeler, and deglaze the peg with the sandpaper. That is, rub it all over just enough to remove the shiny look. Clean off the remains of the graphite, teflon, sugar from the holes. Form a small piece of very very fine sandpaper (1200 grit) around the peg and deglaze the holes in the peg box using the peg to hold the paper out against the box hole. This may be hard to do in the inner hole. Then try the deglazed peg in the hole. Don't saw away at the hole by hand without a former of the exact same taper (ie. the peg) as you will reduce contact area.
Try to take off as little wood as you can. None is ideal. As soon as the shiny look has gone and the dull look is uniform you are done.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by cag
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Clear Drops, your problem sounds very much like one I had a few months ago with my fiddle. The G peg got to the point that it would not stick for love nor money. It was shiny and I was pushing it in so hard I was afraid I would crack the pegbox. And all the other pegs weren't much better. Tuning was a nightmare and took the fun out of playing.
Turns out the entire pegbox needed rebushing. The pegs weren't making good contact with the pegholes---one way to check this is to take the peg, turn it in the peghole very fast a few times, and then hold it to your lips to feel where the friction has made it warm. My peg wasn't warm at all at the end, so I knew it was trying to catch only at the top, and it wasn't working.
I took mine back to the shop where I bought it and they fixed it for free, but normally this is a pretty expensive repair. Since you say this is your "knock-about" fiddle, if I were you, I'd do whatever you have to do to fix it for next week (the sugar solution sounds interesting) and then send it in and have some Perfection Pegs installed---I'm told that's about a US$125 job---you'll never worry about your pegs again. Good luck!
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by kennedy
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Thanks Cag,
Haven't any potatoes at the moment, and I have to mark these assignments. Tomorrow, I'll give it a go.
And thank you kennedy, yes, this sounds like the problem, only I didn't realise I had a problem until I changed the strings because I use fine tuners and they have been enough to tune between string changes.
So, the pegbox needs rebushing, and I looked up the Perfection Pegs and they look promising. It is time the knock about fiddle was taken to the luthier - its done me over 30 years, so that's pretty good I recon considering it was cheap Chinese with no monitary value. I could order the PP's online and take them with the fid to the luthier.
Might have to reconcile to going to the festival just to listen if I can't glue the pegs in temporarily in range of the fine tuners.
Thanks all - have to get down to marking now. More than enough time given to the prob today in the circumstances.
Cheers
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Yeah, graphite is a lubricant, that's the point.
It's always worked fine for me, and I have to deal with some terrible instruments sometimes.
The (admittedly counterintuitive, but effective) idea is that pencil lead lets you jam the friction peg in farther, so it holds better. This wouldn't work if the peg box were metal, but as wood has some give I always recommend graphite over applications you actually have to buy
Let me know about those perfection pegs in 10 years' time - please! Not to be a Luddite, but it seems like every quarter century some guy comes up with a way to do away with friction pegs forever. They last for a few years and then start sliding. Sometimes the old tech is there because it works. If perfection pegs are still working in a decade, though, they may be on to something.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by reenactor
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Clear Drops:
I read your entries above, my thoughts are with you for a swift solution to your problem.
I was wondering if, heavens forbid, none of your fiddles is ready for next week's festival, renting a fiddle from a music store is an option for you.
True, it would be a strange instrument, and possibly not of the highest quality, but surely better than nothing?
Just a thought.
Good luck.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Rook
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
I *have* just had another thought. It's to do with the fact that you have just changed strings. Try this:
Wind the string in such a manner that the string is on the 'outside' of the peg box, thus pulling the peg tighter into the box the more you turn it. For instance, for the D string the string would wind to the left and go almost tight up against the left hand side of the peg box, and for the E string it would wind to the right and go almost tight up against the right hand side of the peg box.
I really really hope something works for you soon.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Why doesn't someone make fiddles with machine heads and do away with the whole inefficient process once and for all? ....
After all, millions of guitarists can't be wrong, can they?
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Freddy Frog
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
We think along similar lines benhall... I just hope it isn't a harline fracture causing the pegs to slip. The other thing said previously also came to mind, kennedy's statement, about rebushing and a new set of pegs. But, I have to say, if you've a music store nearby, renting an old banger, or from a school, since it is old bangers you're considering taking, might not be such a bad idea. At least you'd have something to take. Inspired Rook!
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Could it be that the new strings are actually slipping on the smooth peg surfaces, and so not holding? I had this happen a few years when I fitted a new set of Spirocores (steel-cored) to my cello. The A and D just wouldn't grip on the pegs and I could actually see them slipping as the pitch of the strings went down. Solution: I roughened, very slightly, the region of each peg where the string goes; it worked.
I believe machine heads are available for the fiddle, but they are rare. I've seen them on a few cellos in my time, but cello strings are at much higher tensions than fiddle strings, and some people can have physical problems in manually turning cello pegs fitted with synthetic or gut-core strings - micro-tuners on a cello tail-piece aren't particularly helpful for a big re-tune in those cases.
I have wondered why fiddles don't generally have machine heads. A few reasons come to mind,
1. The fiddle pegbox and scroll assembly is often rightly considered a work of art by the luthier who makes it. He or she wouldn't be best pleased to see the pegbox messed around with metal plates and screws going into the wood. Most fiddle owners may very well feel the same.
2. The pegbox and scroll, along with the neck, are part of the natural acoustic set-up of the fiddle. Making the pegbox heavier would alter the frequency response of the neck and therefore the tonal response of the instrument. You can check this for yourself by bowing a steady note on an open string and then gripping the pegbox or the neck tightly; you should be able to hear the tone deaden slightly. This phenomenon is also another very good reason for getting rid of the dreaded left-hand "death grip"!
3. A heavier pegbox would presumably make the instrument more tiring to hold, with that extra weight being concentrated in a region as far as possible from the player. Muscular tension problems in neck and shoulders could conceivably ensue. These problems don't arise in the guitar or cello for machine head reasons because those instruments aren't held and supported the same way a fiddle is.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by lazyhound
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Any chance you could cannibalize the pegs from the junk fiddle you just bought and see if they might fit tighter?
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Murph
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
They used to use machine heads. It's mostly a weight issue combined with the fact that well-maintained friction pegs do work very well.
# Posted on June 4th 2007 by reenactor
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
"well-maintained friction pegs do work very well" - that's true enough. I know a concert soloist who tunes the Helicors on his concert violin from the pegs.
# Posted on June 4th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Weeoooooo. The brown sugar worked a treat, thanks Mark! Locked solid, but then the D Zyex synth string, by this time was so limp I couldn't get it through the hole in the peg any more (I had already shortened it twice in the numerous attempts to get it through). Too much winding and unwinding, threading and unthreading - it was stuffed and I hadn't even got to play it. So, had to change all to cheap steel core strings and blow me down then I broke the fine tuner on the D! Into the cupboard and found a spare tailpiece with working tuners. Pays never to throw anything away! So it looks as though I might have a fiddle that works at least for the festival (even if I don't like the scratchy sound of the strings). So getting some tunes in at the festival is on again. My thanks to you all. Makes me feel all emotional that you were so helpful to an old scraper in Central Oz. Will think of you all every tune I get (assuming I get some).
A million thank yous.
Cheers
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Problems in persuading a used string through the hole in the peg? I know, I've been there. It's always the A, of course, in the furthest and most inaccessible part of the peg box
The solution is to use a pair of tweezers that you can carry in your fiddle case. Works a treat every time!
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
The sugar thing is a tried and tested method for making the tuning pegs stick of an instrument called the kora, played by tribespeople in parts of Africa such as Mali. I'm not joking - I'm serious. That's where I got the idea.
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by Dow
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
P.S. Don't worry about the "scratchy" sound. In reality it doesn't carry for more than a few feet.
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
PS: There's a strings repair shop in Darwin, a guitar shop - will contact them and have my fingers crossed they will be able to fix the knock about when I go up in a few weeks.
PPS: Had to laugh at the thought of being able to hire a fiddle around here - ha ha! And a symphony orchestra! Tee hee! Oh well!
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
My god, is that your nearest guitar shop? What's that, about 1500 miles away?!?!
Nothing in Katherine? Then I suppose you're as well carrying on to Darwin, if you've gone that far.
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
Core Mark, I did wonder how a 'tina player could come up with something so radical.
Danny, there is a music shop but no luthier. In a few weeks I am flying up to Darwin for a few days for a conference.
Have the Northern Territory yellow pages open at "Musical instrument makers &/or repairers". There are four entries, the first in Brisbane Qld (ha!), the guitar shop with "string instrument repairs and supplies", then two woodwind repairers. Sorry, on looking the last one says "service and repairs to all woodwind plus brass and bowed strings" Palmerston. That sounds like the place to take it. I've only been to Darwin once before to attend the same conference a couple of years ago. Didn't get to see anything of Darwin that trip, but I have an extra day this time.
I've tried to tell you guys .... Didn't you come to the Alice when you visited Oz, Danny? (Nobody ever does - people go to Sydney, Melbourne, Brissy and forget about the centre.) There's this highway that goes from Port Augusta in South Australia north to Darwin and about half way between Adelaide and Darwin is Alice Springs, a nice place with a pop of 28-29,000, not much of anything but the occasional roadhouse, a few towns, road trains, kangaroos, cattle and wild camels for around 1,500 kms either north or south. And unsealed roads across deserts east and west.
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: !@#$%^&*(!@#$ Help!
so, CD, did you fix the fiddle? I know nothing about fiddles, though i did take up the cello for a while. love the cello. My thoughts have already been offered by others, ruffing up both the beg and hole and pushing in while tuning, then fine tuning.
Take a cheep whistle, sing, or better yet, risk your good fiddle.
Hope it all works out. takair jb (ed)
# Posted on June 19th 2007 by Joseph Beck