Very little really bothers me. I had to think about this a while.
When I spend a week working on a difficult tune then go to a session to share it only to have backers just jump in and slash and crash thru it, wrecking the rhythm and playing wrong chords. It bothers me that they try to take a shortcut to making music (skipping the devotion that others must have to learn and play a goodly number of tunes) and concluding that all this is so simple that they can play along even if they never heard the tune before.
It freaks me out when I hear these same people tell punters that all the tunes are basically the same with just a few slight alterations!
I usually laugh at what might be considered offensive behavior, like when some hack piper told me, after I tolerated what sounded like the slaughter of geese, that I needed to take up something more challenging than a whistle (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12429/).
I suppose, lastly, if someone said to me "Thou appeareth nothing to me but a foul and pestilent Congregation of vapours - Thine face is not worth sun burning, would thou wert clean enough to spit upon thou impertinent curvy-valiant whey-face! The most infectious pestilence upon thee!", I may be offended.
When you've got a gorgeous tune that you've been learning and when you start playing it only a couple of people know it. So maybe there's only you, a fiddler and a guitar/bodhran and it's sounding really nice but then the other musicians just totally ignore you and start talking REALLY loudly over the top or going off to the bar for their next round. It doesn't really do much to help confidence!
....oh and I think it's really rude of people when someone's trying to start a tune off and other people who've been playing loudly all session start another one off and keep playing until the other person loses confidence and peters out. I know some people say they're being diplomatic if the other musician's a weak player, but come on! Everyone started out as weak musicians and they're not gonna get better unless someone gives them a chance. 2 minutes isn't going to kill anyone!
Musicians who are clicky, and who won't join a session unless so and so is playing in it. Musicians who think they are God's gift to music and gradually try to outplay everybody else in the session with no discussion. Guitar players who think all they have to do to accompany trad music is to keep strumming in the key and at the right tempo with no idea or feeling for the music. Musicians who don't know the names of any of the tunes they play and actually brag about it. (I could go on but have to take time out to take a few blood pressure tablets)
Irish folk music is, and always has been, elitist.
An elite of players raise playing standards and explore new possibilities: do they deserve some sort of respect above the very basic human rights that we should extend to some ill-mannered idiot banging away very badly on some loud, out of tune instrument? It will be a cold, unfair world when they are not afforded special status.
I can't remeber who I'm about to misquote, but:
"The greatest vanity of all is the belief that we are all equal"
I disagree Harry, many of the people who explore new possibilities aren't "the elite". One can only be elite if one is raised up to that status by the NON-elite. There will always be more of the latter than the former. The problem arises with people who are Elitist by nature, not by ability.
Well then, seems there are different types of elite present... Junior Crehan for e.g. was not 'elitist' in that sense as far as I am aware, but I think it is very fair to say that, in terms of influences on traditional music and standing among musicians, that he is certainly held in an elite quite readily by people educated in the traditions.
Yes, such a character is raised to 'elite' status by the non-elite, that's the nature of such a thing. The fact that there will always be more non-elite is obvious, but I fail to see any point here; such people just did what they did when the 'elite makers' weren't particularly interested.
You're right of course Harry, and of course there are many elite players, yourself included. I think what I was trying to say was there are lots of non-elite people playing , who are'nt ill mannered or out of tune! eg. Me!
My point sort of was that 'elites' are relative to the beholder: while I know that some few poor individuals consider me to be in some sort of an elite, some others quite rightly very much ignore my existence altogether as their tastes and sensibilities dictate... there are some 'elite' musicians though that really do/will echo through the ages in a broader sense, even in a way that the 'uninitiated' people can't quite put their fingers on ('the Legends' in other words): Coleman, McKenna, Molloy, Ennis, Cooley etc. and then to some others you'll have the elite Clancy (Liam not Willie), Barney Mc Kenna, Michael Flately... its a funny one, but an undeniable human disposition nonetheless.
I don;t mind paying for a pint in the normal course of things.
I went to a session last wednesday wherein the staff brought me *unrequested* pints and then charged me at the end of the evening. (W/O charging the nominal session host).
Yes, people who play any kind of music well are an elite. This is pretty straight forward. But how this applies to sessions of diddley music, particularly "open" pub sessions, is the relevant subject.
I often play in the pub with many really really good players I know and many really really good players I didn't know personally but had known of. And of course, the odd complete stranger who astonishes you by being really really good.
You have to suffer the endless dross of course. But in the long run, it's worth it. Dividing the dross from the really really good is elitist, by it's very nature, and I make no apology. Having said that, all these really really good players do still come and play with the dross.
When you start a tune and someone joins in while trying to play the tune faster or slower than you the leader is playing it. This is offset by one of those dare I say good bodhran players who stick to your tempo.
Pipers who think they can play Flute but in reality have no idea what the correct embochure is and play with a bad tone. This seems to be most people who take up Pipes before Flute thinking that Flute will be easy and never take the time to learn to play it correctly.
Llig: Well put; good players' willingness to play with us schlubbos is graciousness of a high order indeed, and gives the rest of us something to aspire to.
Terry
Now that my blood pressure is normal, I really must add a further comment. Another of the many things that not only offends me and really gets up my nose is the person, usually somebody without a note of music in their head, who watches you play. Then spouts off as follows: "Well you're not bad, but have you ever heard 'so and so' playing" Jesus wept, how I hate that.
Not so much offensive but more of an irritation........,
When you're happily playing away with other musicians but not leading and some "smart erse" comes along and says "I've not heard you play yet".
If, in fact, I had been playing *really badly* then they would soon have noticed my contribution.
We've been playing all night and pulled a few punters in, all buying drinks, crisps etc. Tuesday night normally there would be no f....ker within a 5 miles. I go for another drink cos' I've been buying all night. "Pint of Guinness please I say." "Yes certainly sir that will be £3 please"....
What Offends You..............
What Offends You..............
What do you hate the most about sessions or what do you find offensive.
As most of ye know I hate Elitism and bad manners.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: What Offends You..............
Good one what?!!?
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: What Offends You..............
Closing time! :p
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Afrocelt
Re: What Offends You..............
Pints tomorrow Afrocelt.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: What Offends You..............
Defo Saint looking forward to it hope to see you down the farmers!
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Afrocelt
Re: What Offends You..............
1. People who are intolerant of other peoples' cultures.
2. The Dutch.
(with apologies to Mike Meyers)
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by crazy_fingerz
Re: What Offends You..............
that I so rarely am able to get to them
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by matan_fiddler
Re: What Offends You..............
Latecomers pushing into my elbow space, (especially if they can't even play properly!)
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by cathycook
The Dutch???
Crazy_fingerz,
Why do the Dutch offend you? You must be a Belgian if you are offended by the Dutch.
I hate people throwing up in my fiddle case.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Shylock
Re: What Offends You..............
I think its a joke bud
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: What Offends You..............
When someone requests a tune from the British isles!
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Johannes J
Re: What Offends You..............
Go on john j
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: What Offends You..............
People saying i play too fast, when I'm clearly not, they're just too lazy. That really takes the biscuit.
O and also landlords that don't offer at least ONE free pint to the musicians
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Scrappy the Godo
Re: What Offends You..............
sessions on weeknights when I have to work in the morning
bloody layabout musicians!
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Bren
Re: What Offends You..............
Ditto Bren.
i would like to attend more sessions.
but not on a fecking Tuesday.
know what i mean?
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by DubChieftain
Re: What Offends You..............
People with no musical ability . . . and never will have despite hours of practice.This only applies might I add to people I don't know well.
(I do have friends who can't play . . but thats different.)
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Justintime
Re: What Offends You..............
Nothing offends me.
It's a joy that people can meet in song and tune.
If I'm going to be there with hate in my heart then I go home.
And that's that.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by UncleNobby'sSteamboat
Re: What Offends You..............
Well, goody for you, Uncle Nobby.
But if I want to be offended, I'm going to be offended. And if that offends you ...
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by benhall.1
Re: What Offends You..............
Refer to first line, Benny.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by UncleNobby'sSteamboat
What Offends Me
People who go out fishing for stuff to be offended about
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Backer
Re: What Offends You..............
Very little really bothers me. I had to think about this a while.
When I spend a week working on a difficult tune then go to a session to share it only to have backers just jump in and slash and crash thru it, wrecking the rhythm and playing wrong chords. It bothers me that they try to take a shortcut to making music (skipping the devotion that others must have to learn and play a goodly number of tunes) and concluding that all this is so simple that they can play along even if they never heard the tune before.
It freaks me out when I hear these same people tell punters that all the tunes are basically the same with just a few slight alterations!
I usually laugh at what might be considered offensive behavior, like when some hack piper told me, after I tolerated what sounded like the slaughter of geese, that I needed to take up something more challenging than a whistle (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12429/).
I suppose, lastly, if someone said to me "Thou appeareth nothing to me but a foul and pestilent Congregation of vapours - Thine face is not worth sun burning, would thou wert clean enough to spit upon thou impertinent curvy-valiant whey-face! The most infectious pestilence upon thee!", I may be offended.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by feardearg
Re: What Offends You..............
Jayus I didn't think this was going to turn into a problem page .We have people on this site who need pro. help .
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: What Offends You..............
That we are even on this site is another indicator.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by feardearg
Re: What Offends You..............
What a piece of work is feadearg! how noble in reason! How infinitie in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable...
sorry, can't help myself when that speech get's quoted
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by matan_fiddler
Re: What Offends You..............
It offends me when someone calls me a piece.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by feardearg
Re: What Offends You..............
but you could be a nice piece, a jammy piece for example. Mmmm jammy piece ...
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Bren
Re: What Offends You..............
People who say there is no such thing as "wrong" chords.
They just play "differently".
People who think that banging tambourine or triangle is a passport to sessions, mainly because they think it is cruel to skin goats.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by geoffwright
Re: What Offends You..............
People that have a problem killing and skinning animals
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: What Offends You..............
When you've got a gorgeous tune that you've been learning and when you start playing it only a couple of people know it. So maybe there's only you, a fiddler and a guitar/bodhran and it's sounding really nice but then the other musicians just totally ignore you and start talking REALLY loudly over the top or going off to the bar for their next round. It doesn't really do much to help confidence!
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by RoisinB
Re: What Offends You..............
....oh and I think it's really rude of people when someone's trying to start a tune off and other people who've been playing loudly all session start another one off and keep playing until the other person loses confidence and peters out. I know some people say they're being diplomatic if the other musician's a weak player, but come on! Everyone started out as weak musicians and they're not gonna get better unless someone gives them a chance. 2 minutes isn't going to kill anyone!
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by RoisinB
Re: What Offends You..............
Musicians who are clicky, and who won't join a session unless so and so is playing in it. Musicians who think they are God's gift to music and gradually try to outplay everybody else in the session with no discussion. Guitar players who think all they have to do to accompany trad music is to keep strumming in the key and at the right tempo with no idea or feeling for the music. Musicians who don't know the names of any of the tunes they play and actually brag about it. (I could go on but have to take time out to take a few blood pressure tablets)
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Free Reed
Re: What Offends You..............
Irish folk music is, and always has been, elitist.
An elite of players raise playing standards and explore new possibilities: do they deserve some sort of respect above the very basic human rights that we should extend to some ill-mannered idiot banging away very badly on some loud, out of tune instrument? It will be a cold, unfair world when they are not afforded special status.
I can't remeber who I'm about to misquote, but:
"The greatest vanity of all is the belief that we are all equal"
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Harry B
Re: What Offends You..............
I disagree Harry, many of the people who explore new possibilities aren't "the elite". One can only be elite if one is raised up to that status by the NON-elite. There will always be more of the latter than the former. The problem arises with people who are Elitist by nature, not by ability.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Backer
Re: What Offends You..............
People who use The Music as an excuse for a political rant.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by murfbox
Re: What Offends You..............
Well then, seems there are different types of elite present... Junior Crehan for e.g. was not 'elitist' in that sense as far as I am aware, but I think it is very fair to say that, in terms of influences on traditional music and standing among musicians, that he is certainly held in an elite quite readily by people educated in the traditions.
Yes, such a character is raised to 'elite' status by the non-elite, that's the nature of such a thing. The fact that there will always be more non-elite is obvious, but I fail to see any point here; such people just did what they did when the 'elite makers' weren't particularly interested.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Harry B
Re: What Offends You..............
You're right of course Harry, and of course there are many elite players, yourself included. I think what I was trying to say was there are lots of non-elite people playing , who are'nt ill mannered or out of tune! eg. Me!
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Backer
Re: What Offends You..............
My point sort of was that 'elites' are relative to the beholder: while I know that some few poor individuals consider me to be in some sort of an elite, some others quite rightly very much ignore my existence altogether as their tastes and sensibilities dictate... there are some 'elite' musicians though that really do/will echo through the ages in a broader sense, even in a way that the 'uninitiated' people can't quite put their fingers on ('the Legends' in other words): Coleman, McKenna, Molloy, Ennis, Cooley etc. and then to some others you'll have the elite Clancy (Liam not Willie), Barney Mc Kenna, Michael Flately... its a funny one, but an undeniable human disposition nonetheless.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Harry B
Re: What Offends You..............
I don;t mind paying for a pint in the normal course of things.
I went to a session last wednesday wherein the staff brought me *unrequested* pints and then charged me at the end of the evening. (W/O charging the nominal session host).
WTF?
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by wormdiet
Re: What Offends You..............
Yes, people who play any kind of music well are an elite. This is pretty straight forward. But how this applies to sessions of diddley music, particularly "open" pub sessions, is the relevant subject.
I often play in the pub with many really really good players I know and many really really good players I didn't know personally but had known of. And of course, the odd complete stranger who astonishes you by being really really good.
You have to suffer the endless dross of course. But in the long run, it's worth it. Dividing the dross from the really really good is elitist, by it's very nature, and I make no apology. Having said that, all these really really good players do still come and play with the dross.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: What Offends You..............
gill is back
I didn't read your post . but how are ya
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Saint
Re: What Offends You..............
When you start a tune and someone joins in while trying to play the tune faster or slower than you the leader is playing it. This is offset by one of those dare I say good bodhran players who stick to your tempo.
Pipers who think they can play Flute but in reality have no idea what the correct embochure is and play with a bad tone. This seems to be most people who take up Pipes before Flute thinking that Flute will be easy and never take the time to learn to play it correctly.
Damn Box players drowning out my Mandolin.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Unseen122
Re: What Offends You..............
Llig: Well put; good players' willingness to play with us schlubbos is graciousness of a high order indeed, and gives the rest of us something to aspire to.
Terry
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by twildman
Re: What Offends You..............
shakey eggs. enough said.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by snowyowl
Re: ...is better than.................
pedantic punctuation pickers of nits who don't use capital letters themselves...
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by biggus dave
Re: What Offends You..............
Now that my blood pressure is normal, I really must add a further comment. Another of the many things that not only offends me and really gets up my nose is the person, usually somebody without a note of music in their head, who watches you play. Then spouts off as follows: "Well you're not bad, but have you ever heard 'so and so' playing" Jesus wept, how I hate that.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Free Reed
Re: What Offends You..............
Not so much offensive but more of an irritation........,
When you're happily playing away with other musicians but not leading and some "smart erse" comes along and says "I've not heard you play yet".
If, in fact, I had been playing *really badly* then they would soon have noticed my contribution.
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Johannes J
Re: What Offends You..............
More irritation....
We've been playing all night and pulled a few punters in, all buying drinks, crisps etc. Tuesday night normally there would be no f....ker within a 5 miles. I go for another drink cos' I've been buying all night. "Pint of Guinness please I say." "Yes certainly sir that will be £3 please"....
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by Twiz
Re: What Offends You..............
bodhran player accompanying an off-beat accordion
# Posted on June 22nd 2007 by Criostoir