Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Seriously though, and without flame
Alternative terms from Wikipedia
There are several terms that are used as alternatives for the term British Isles.
Sometimes, an ambiguous phrase such as "these Isles" or "the Isles" is used, thus utilising the same logic used when referring to the Persian Gulf as "the Gulf". "These Islands" was used in Strand Three of the Good Friday Agreement to establish the British-Irish Council, and has been described as the favoured term of Irish politicians.[34]
Probably the most common alternative term in modern usage is "Great Britain and Ireland", or more simply, "Britain and Ireland". This is very common and almost entirely uncontroversial, although it may be felt to neglect smaller islands in the archipelago and is ambiguous concerning the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.
Although considerably less common another term that is sometimes used is British Isles and Ireland. Similar to "Great Britain and Ireland", this has been used in a variety of areas; among others religion,[35] nursing,[36] zoological publications,[37] academia,[38] and other sources. This form of title is also used in some book titles[39] and in various legal publications.[40] This usage, however, implies that Northern Ireland is not part of the British Isles, which causes problems in itself.
Some live UK television shows such as the X Factor allow voting from the Republic of Ireland and hold auditions in Dublin, and use terminology such as "UK and Ireland" on voting lines. This is also common for copyright notices on DVDs and CDs. UK TV weather forecasts continue to show the British Isles area opposed to cutting the Republic of Ireland out, although the weather for the Republic is rarely mentioned explicitly. In the Republic of Ireland, weather forecasts typically show the islands of Ireland.
In the context of the Northern Ireland peace process the term Islands of the North Atlantic (IONA), a term initially created by then Conservative Party MP Sir John Biggs-Davison,[41] has been used as a neutral term to describe the "British Isles", but in a wider context the term might be misunderstood as including Iceland, Greenland, the Azores and other islands.
IONA has been used by among others the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern.
“ The Government are, of course, conscious of the emphasis that is laid on the East-West dimension by Unionists, and we are, ourselves, very mindful of the unique relationships that exist within these islands — islands of the North Atlantic or IONA as some have termed them.[42] ”
It has also been adopted by the British National Party, in their 'Project-IONA', [43] an attempt to make a collection of the cultural artefacts of the islands. [44] The party does, however, use the term British Isles elsewhere; for example in their declared wish for a return of "Éire as well as Ulster as equal partners in[to] a federation of the nations of the British Isles" [45]
Others have interpreted the term more narrowly to mean the Council of the Isles or British-Irish Council. Peter Luff MP told the British House of Commons in 1998 that
“ In the same context, there will be a council of the isles. I think that some people are calling it IONA — the islands of the north Atlantic, from which England, by definition, will be excluded.[46] ”
His interpretation, as Ahern's comment earlier shows, is not widely held, particularly in Ireland, where IONA is seen as a parallel to either the British Islands or the British Isles. In 1997 the leader of the Green Party, Trevor Sargent, discussing the Strand Three (or East-West) talks between the Republic and the United Kingdom, commented in Dáil Éireann:
“ I noted with interest the naming of the islands of the north Atlantic under the acronym IONA which the Green Party felt was extremely appropriate.[47] ”
His comments were echoed by Proinsias De Rossa, then leader of Democratic Left and later President of the Irish Labour Party when both parties merged, who told the Dáil "The acronym IONA is a useful way of addressing the coming together of these two islands."[48]
Anglo-Celtic Isles has been used in academia for the isles.[49][50] This reflects the supposed ethnic make up of the islands of the 'Celtic' peoples — the Irish, Manx, Scottish, Cornish and Welsh — and the 'Anglo-Saxon' peoples, the English.
The 'Celtica' often refered to by political Celticists such as the Celtic League, which includes all of the islands and Brittany in Western France (excluding England and the Channel Islands), is one of the many cultural-political ways of interpreting a future for the geographical region. If highly fanciful, it is not without romantic merit.
The British government currently uses British Islands (as defined in the Interpretation Act, 1978) to refer to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, together with the Crown Dependencies: the Bailiwicks of Jersey and of Guernsey (which in turn includes the smaller islands of Alderney, Herm and Sark) in the Channel Islands; and the Isle of Man.
Some academics in the 1990s and early 2000s also used the term northwest European archipelago.[51] Usage however appears sporadic in historiography and rarely repeated outside it, to date.
The name the West European Isles is one translation of the islands' name in Irish[52] and Manx Gaelic.[53]—but explicit "British Isle" terms also exist in Irish[54] and Manx[55]. A somewhat similar usage exists in Iceland. "Westman" is the Icelandic name for a person from Ireland or Britain and "Western Lands" is the translation of the name for these islands in Icelandic.[56]
A return to Pytheas's original term, Pretanic Isles (or Pretannic Isles) has been suggested sporadically and has seen some usage in academic contexts, particularly in reference to the islands in a pre-Roman context. [57]
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"Westman" is the Icelandic name for a person from Ireland or Britain and "Western Lands" is the translation of the name for these islands in Icelandic." - From Dows post
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
From now on, if I go over to Britain and Ireland on holiday from Oz, I'm going to tell my friends I'm "going for a holiday in the Pretanic Isles". It's sounds like an exotic destination
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
...whereas of course, the fact is that in reality, the whole island group is a rainy, miserable sh1thole.
What about the "Rainy Isles".
Or the "Whinger Isles". An inhabitant could be a "Whinger" with a capital "W". Unfortunately it might cause confusion over here in Australia, where it might be assumed that "Whinger" referred specifically to the Poms.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
This is definitely an emotive issue having generated over 160 posts in a couple of days on another post. I was just about to add my views but found a similar argument from a more eminent source posted by Saint which is close to what I would have said.
"I can do no better than repeat the words of an Irish Embassy spokesman in London quoted by The Times of London a few months ago: "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage." Amen to that !"
Ireland (apart from 6 counties) ceased to be part of the British Empire more than 80 years ago so why do we persist in maintaining a fictional link between two distinct and independent states - It's very simple; Ireland is Ireland and Britain is Britain!
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Come on, Banners, that doesn't answer the question.
The fact is that if you look on the map, these islands area distinct geographical identity - an archipelago. Imagine calling the West Indies the Cuban Isles or Indonesia the Bornean Isles after their biggest components (Cuba or Borneo - I think.)
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"The fact is that if you look on the map, these islands area distinct geographical identity - an archipelago."
I agree and this is regardless of whether or not certain countries are now(Ireland) or might be, e.g Scotland and Wales independent countries.
In Scandinavia, for instance, the countries of Denmark, Norway and Sweden etc all had disagreements with each other...Denmark ruled them all, at one point... but they still have close links and don't object to being referred to as part of Scandinavia.
In spite of all our past troubles, England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and the other islands also have very close important links. We still do get on very well, in the main, actually and have a lot in common.
I can see no problem with our islands as a whole having a "geographical" name but "British" is obviously not suitable. It would have to be a term acceptable to all.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I have to admit, my conern over the naming of the entity in question is this: if we ignore the fact that, until the last 100 years, there were definite links between Britain and Ireland then we encourage people to look at the native musics of England, Northumbria & Scotland and the native music of Ireland as independant. Which they quite clearly aren't.
This is partially caused by the problem that when disussing a lot of traditional music then you're dealing with music originating prior to (i.e. over 100 years ago) the drawing up of the current political boundaries. Whilst people might desire a name for the entity that doesn't suggest political ownership of Ireland by Britain; I don't think, from a musical perspective, it's pragmatic to debate whether the entity exists or not.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Canute ruled Denmark and Norway also. They may or may not be happy to be included
Andy - not quite sure what you meant, other than your two paragraphs sounding contradictory to one another. If the native musics aren't independent, then why isn't it pragmatic to debate whether the entity exists or not? Sorry, probably just me reading you incorrectly.
In this case, what we need to do is find a musical form ubiquitous to all the indigenous musical traditions.
So:
The Hornpipe Isles?
too weird.
The Schottische Isles?
Yeah, that's close. So maybe we should just shorten that to the more comprehensible:
Scottish Isles.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"we encourage people to look at the native musics of England, Northumbria & Scotland and the native music of Ireland as independant. Which they quite clearly aren't."
I hope (and presume) I picked you up wrong andy, but are you trying to say that the aforementioned traditional musical styles are the same?
The traditional music of England, Northumbria, Scotland and Ireland are completely different. Granted some obviously share a common root and have good similarities but they are all individual.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Any 'entity' has parts, its not just some undefined blob called 'entity': it might have 'hand', 'head', 'heart' and (where morris dancing and banjoes are concerned) 'arse'. In fact, given the diversity of parts the impression of separateness is sometimes stark, and there are movements/parts that have existed in the 'entity' for so long that they are fairly unfamiliar with each other and their respective socio cultural/ political settings at this stage (the Irish Sean os singing of Connemara and morris dancing in Somerset, for example).
If we extend this to the strong influences of the past, and remaining traditional influences, from mainland Europe and the US then the 'entity' suddenly looses even more shape and starts to become a very ethereal beast altogether.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Savage, Andy said they're not independent ie they depend on each other. And they do. Not quite the same as saying they're not different from one another, which they are. You're not going to disagree with that are you?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
New America
The Greater Blasket Islands (the name "Blasket" IMO expresses in an unrivalled way the blasting, blanketing, drenching, freezing fog in which we are often encased, and to which Dow has referred in other words...)
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
As an Englishman - ney make that a Staffordshire man (and proud) I am happy with the geographical appelation. As much as I am with the homophonic, (if confusing orally) Ireland/Island.
How about the Western Archepeligo of Europe - the West Euries NOT.
NZ have North Island and the Mainland unless you are from the North Island. Then it is South Island (with Mouth Island a little to the West).
Neighbourly ribaldry was ever thus.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The route from Sean Nos to Morris dancing, whilst not direct, does exist (this is probably one of the longer routes). A potential route (and you'll have to excuse the fact that I don't know an awful lot about singing in Connemara) might be: Sean Nos singing -- the playing of slow airs on pipes -- the dance music of Ireland -- the dance music of Scotland -- the dance music of Northumbria -- the dance music of England -- Morris dancing.
My point was this - those links shouldn't be ignored just because of some politio-religious disagreement between two areas which springs a desire for separation. Which is why it's not terribly pragmatic to discuss whether or not some form of "British Isles + Ireland" entity exists -because it's seldom done on musical grounds.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The 'route' to Morris dance 'from' sean nos is not as clear cut as you or I are making it out to be. Your road map is simplistic at best. Besides, it is of little relevance to the practitioners of both, which is more to the real point. Because people invent, and reinvent, their place and times and culture for themselves regardless of the subtleties of history real or imagined. And the British have certainly invented quite a little niche for themselves in the consciousness of the island of Ireland, in fact several little niches.
"Entity" is, and will remain, a relative value in this respect then.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Why is it not obvious that "British" in "British Isles" is not a posessive adjective but merely geographically associative? Is that too hard?
If we called them the West European Isles nobody would think that meant that they are in some way ruled by West Europe.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
then call briton the british isles if you want just don't link ireland with the british isles. Its Simple Irish people should have a choice or at least a say in the name and no Irish man/woman had a say in this.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Bellman, is it not obvious that "British" in "British Isles" is considered offensive to many Irish people, as has been shown by the amount of replies this thread hsa evoked in such a short space of time?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Hi Andy
Just want to clarify that I dont dispute the connections between each tradtitional music.
With all of us being so close to each other a certain amount of 'cross pollination' is natural.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Well, seeing as everyone seems intent on expressing our differences rather than our common hertiage then I vote for 'The Sanguine Isles".
That way all the optimists can be cheerful about our collective future, and the rest can use it's more archaic meaning and be assured of their own correctitide about the how the past will dictate the future of our peoples.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The brits(of the time) put names on everything in Ireland .How dare they ,what rights had they to do this .e.g. Queenstown ,The Victoria Hotel,Queens University ,King williams town and so on, So the people who insist on using terms like the british isles don't have much hope in my opinion ,after all it has been explained in the most simple way.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
At the end of the day there is no reason to put a name on this area of the world because it alredy has its own name and if anyone from mars wants to send a letter the following adress should get to Ireland.
Mr. Jack Union
32 Free Ireland Road,
Dublin 4,
Ireland,
Europe,
The Planet Earth,
And this should do ,see no need for the British Isles
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I wasn't trying to suggest how one has lead to the other - I was suggesting how,by slicing through that chain, you impose politics on a system which developed prior to the existance of those politics. Each one of the elements in that chain links firmly to the one before & after it. And yes, it's a fairly simplistic picture (such is the nature of internet message boards). But do you actually claim any of the links to be wrong?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
In any case why do we have to be anybody's isle? New Zealand is never referred to as an Australian Isle nor Iceland as a Norwegian Island and I don't think the West Indies would be over the moon about being classed as the Cuban Isles!
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
It doesn't matter to me if they are right or wrong, if it does exist it seems irrelevant to they way that both movements exist in real on-going people's lives.
Irish music has influenced, and continues to influence, morris repertory in myriad ways I'm sure. Big deal, its a small geographic area with much in common. Still, it doesn't make me want to associate myself with things 'British', it doesn't make me feel 'British' and it doesn't make me see the 'British' political and military entities in any different light. That's the reality my man, text books aside.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Agree heartily Harry - I don't feel 'British' either.
The artifice that is 'Britishness' and all the associations that go with it mean the geographical term 'Britain' whether great or otherwise carries too many negative connotations.
However, I think a strong case exists for an inclusive geographical name for our Islands because like it or not we are all interconnected and have much in common - brothers and sisters rather than cousins.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"However, I think a strong case exists for an inclusive geographical name for our Islands because like it or not we are all interconnected and have much in common - brothers and sisters rather than cousins."
Maybe, but don't leave it to some British think-tank to dream it up, it'll probably be used in justification for some invasion of somewhere or other.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Can we rename the "Irish" sea while we're at it?
The current name implies that it's owned by Ireland, thus disenfranchising those in Wales, Scotland, England, Isle of Man, Isles of Scilly, those puffins on Lundy Island descended from 16th century north african pirates etc.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Thats only fair Ceratonia.
So if we all decide to go with sugarfoot and call these islands the US's Dangleberries islands, then we can change the name of the irish sea to US's Dangleberries sea.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
But Lundy Island is in the *Bristol* Channel. Yet administratively it's in Devon.
So, what about the English Channel? I say give it a more modern name - what about calling it the Tunnel Channel.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
This site doesn't seem to me to be a place for the discussion of political or military actions, or a debate concerning cultural identity. If people wish to discuss that here, I'm largely unconcerned. However, I'll cheerfully reserve the right to discuss the ethnomusicological side as I feel it's more pertinant.
I think it'd be fair to point out - Great Britain comprises of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (at present). So this debate isn't really about whether Ireland is a separate political region - it clearly is. However, from an ethnomusicologist's point of view, Great Britain and Ireland are best considered as one umbrella region - no matter what they're called.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"Great Britain comprises of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland"
Wrong.
Great Britain is the bigger of the two islands comprising what is erroneously called the British Isles.
The *United Kingdom* is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
That is fact. Please get yours right.
The theme park angle has--strangely--been overlooked: It should be "Englandland" and "Irelandland" in the Disney-run "Quaint Isles". Or, the "Tea Cozy Isles".
All inhabitants could hasten this becoming a reality by, please, wearing costumes representing the more charming eras of your particular "Q.I." Modern attire disappoints every tourist.
Gordon Brown looks smashing in a Morris kit, for example. And an unshaven Bertie Ahern cutting turf with a jug of poteen propped atop a nearby stone wall also works well.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Danny, beat me to it. However, that seems to be semantics - considering the Kingdom of Great Britain would have been entirely accurate.
Harry, I pertain to A.L. Lloyd, with reference to Elbourne, Karpeles (if you have a JSOTR access or access to the JIFMC/YIFMC over the past 52 years I can probably point you to the pieces I refer to). And, no, "umbrella region" was my attempt to describe the sum of the English, Northumbrian, Scottish, Irish and Shetland musics in order to keep this comprehensible to the casual reader. I suspect you might have guessed that though?
Have we finally reached a stage where the manner of the point is more important than the actual point?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Harry
I thought ethnomusicologists were like economists, in that, if you asked 10 of them the same question, you'd get at least 20 different answers ...
And Danny, since you're talking about getting facts right, there is, factually speaking, no way you can describe the term 'British Isles' as "erroneous". It is a *factually* and historically correct description. But that's not what we're talking about. It may be "factually" correct, but it appears, in different quarters, to be *politically* incorrect.
And the United Kingdom is, indeed, "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" now, but, obviously, wasn't always. It started off with the union of Scotland and England (Wales being, as always, completely ignored and treated as just a province of England - hence no reference in the flag - bloody typical) and then later Ireland joined, and later still, most of it left.
If the term 'British Isles' is now offensive to some, then fine - I can accept that. But it can't be argued as being offensive by reference to history or facts, or anything of that sort.
btw, I'd go with Dow's 'Pretanic Isles', except that I'm surprised nobody objected to it, since it is, after all, just a straight translation of 'British Isles'.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I can never understand why these Newspeak enthusiasts don't get onto the tourism bodies in Limerick and Leitrim etc who continue to insist that the Shannnon is "the longest river in the British Isles", before battering us hapless foreigners with their accusations, and weaselly "it is considered" passive voice phrases. Perhaps if it was the second longest river they'd be happier. Saying the longest river in "Britain and Ireland" would sound even worse to me, implying they are a oneness, like "England and Wales" in smoking bans etc
By the way, I am now officially offended and insulted by those (you know who you are) who describe the language of this board as "English". I for one am not English, never was English and never plan to be English. Surely this is the most insidious form of cultural imperialism ever devised and I suggest those who do not wish to carry on *deliberately* offending and insulting me in this *out-dated* way (because fashion is important too) henceforth refer to the language as "these words".
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"and then later Ireland joined, and later still, most of it left." - Sorry ben, I must strongly disagree with this statement. Ireland never joined but forcibly was coerced into the Union after the brutal supression of the United Irishmen's attempt to set up an independent republic in 1798. This is getting very serious and maybe we should attempt to get back to the tunes even if it's just to compare the relative merits of "The Sash" and "Roddy McCorley" !
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Colonial history seems all well and good when the feel good factor is high. Its amazing what'll be rolled our for the strangest reasons. At any rate the Empire is dead, the Union is dying, the Irish language is in reasonably good shape and our culture is the envy of Europe and the world... don't get me wrong, I'm not overly nervous or anything.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The end result may be the same Bren but if you compare the Act of Union entered into under duress with becoming a member of the EU entered into with the agreement of the majority of the people in Ireland I don't think the butt-welding analogy applies.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I'm a catholic, and tend to have sympathy with other catholics wherever (for no very good reason). And my understanding was that the - catholic - majority at the time *was* in favour of the union. As was the Irish parliament (protestant); and that the (protestant - or at least started by protestants) United Irishmen were rather disapproved of by the catholic majority in Ireland.
I'm perfectly willing to be persuaded that there is another view ...
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Ben, whether or not the term British Isles is factually and historically correct, which I agree it is, it erroneously describes the islands in question as the description includes a non-British isle, ie Ireland. So therefore they are erroneously called the British Isles. As I previously stated. Other place names may also be erroneous descriptions, but historically factually correct, such as Greenland, which is mostly white due to ice, but the Vikings who discovered it called it green to sell it to the folks back home whom they tried to entice to emigrate to there. But the name Greenland not Iceland is the historically correct one.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I like that one, Pete.
or...
"This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this [your name here]."
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Ben, I don't think we can kid ourselves that the niceties of democracy we enjoy today obtained in 18th century Ireland so I'd be very reluctant to say what the majority of catholics or protestants favoured. It is a fact, however, that the United Irishmen made up of various religions including both catholic, presbyterian and others, wished to inroduce the values of republicanism (already prevalent in Europe since the 1789 French revolution) whose ideals of "power to the people" would in theory liberate all peoples on the island. Had their project succeeded, we might have been spared over 200 years of strife and sectarianism on the island and we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Since the Island of Ireland *was* considered British for some thousands of years - the word British coming from the same (celtic) root as Dow's 'Pretanic' - I can't see how it is erroneous.
I suppose the point is that once, the word 'British' did indeed apply to people from all over these islands, but now it doesn't.
So, when, *exactly*, did the term become "erroneous"?
For some hundreds of years, Ireland was part of the kingdom of England (!) - an indignity suffered for a far longer time by the Welsh. At least Ireland got recognition from the moment of union - something that Wales still hasn't got - just a province of England.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I'm amazed how uptight everybody gets about this question.
Why don't you just call your islands HOME?
To me they're simply NCE = Non Continental Europe.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Bannerman. I do actually know what you mean. And I'm really not trying to be ignorant or offensive, not that you've said I am, but anyway, honest, I'm not.
I'm trying to put a different point of view partly because I think the situation is so complicated, none of us, Irish, English, Welsh (me, I'm half Cornish brought up in Wales) or whatever, can quite grasp it all, and partly because I'd really like to rehabilitate the word British - which *is*, after all, a celtic word. I mean, it's not as if it's 'English' or anything like that.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"The end result may be the same Bren but if you compare the Act of Union entered into under duress with becoming a member of the EU entered into with the agreement of the majority of the people in Ireland I don't think the butt-welding analogy applies."
Bannerman you seem to be objecting to the word "join" in this context (a context which was not apparent in your earlier post) because you object to the thing it describes Or because of the historical subtext you see underneath it. But they are separate things.
That is my problem with this proscriptive approach to language.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Whats wrong with the British Isles?
We are part of Britain after all?
Even if you are in England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland.
British doesnt equal one of those countries seperately.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Saint wrote:
>Eddies car .The car belongs to eddie
>British Isles . The Isles belong to the British.
>Can we see the problem yet.
The only problem I can see here is that you are (perhaps out of obstinacy) failing to see how the English language works, including in its Irish version.
First of all, it should not be "Eddies car" but "Eddie's car", because it is a possessive.
The "British" in "British Isles" is not a possessive, it is descriptive of an association, in this case geographical. It is no more possessive than "Irish Sea", which does not belong to the Irish, "English Channel", which does not belong to the English, "French toast" which does not belong to the French, Greek salad which .... I think I made my point.
If you choose to fail to understand that, then fine. *Don't use the phrase.* I may even avoid using it, in order to be nice to you. But don't expect the rest of the world to suddenly start pretending the term doesn't mean what it used to mean just because you don't like it.
Didn't I say the other day that half the problem is that people don't know how to use apostrophes?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"Join implies a consensual act"
No, it doesn't. Can't put it clearer than that. It's a neutral word. A stream can join a river without taking a vote on it.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I really don't understand the necessity for conversations like this as it clearly points to lack of knowledge and/or understanding more than anything else.
What it boils down to is pure semantics.
The Republic of Ireland is not a part of the British Isles.
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the constituent countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, hence this is why people think Ireland is roped in but, politically, socially and geographically it isn't.
The Republic does not use the term, the British Government actively discourages the use of the term so I don't see how this thread's question can be a valid one.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Yes it is. The island called Ireland, all of it, is part of the unfortunately named British Isles, whoever decides to use the term or not. Just to be absolutely clear so we all know what we're talking about, the British Isles means the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, Man, The Inner and Outer Hebrides, Orkneys, Shetlands, Wight, Anglesey, and all the rest of them.
I don't know if it includes the Channel Islands (probably not) and pretty sure not the Faroes
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Gosh, you sound like such a wise superior intellectual type of person. Yet so laid back. Gee, thanks for sparing the time to talk to me. Oh my, I feel really humbled now, what can I say?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The problem would be over if only the old Scots would secede from the Union. Then it would be obvious - Scotland would still, of course, be part of Great Britain - it would take a damned big trench to change that! The RoI would still be part of the island of Ireland, and another part (did I hear somebody say unfortunately?) would still be part of the UK.
But the UK would no longer be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, because part of Great Britain would no longer be in it. It would presumably be the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. At this point it would be obvious that the British Isles meant what until now it has meant - a bunch of islands of the coast of Europe, long ago named for their proximity to Brittany. And why not? It does not mean that they belong to a French province, after all, it's just a geographical association... hey, isn't that where I came in?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Swearing that black is white is a technique with a long tradition. It has been pointed out that an unnamed Irish Embassy spokesman in London was quoted by The Times of London last October as saying "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms."
Assuming that bizarre levels of stupidity and blindness do not lie behind this statement, it suggests that the supposed spokesman gives nonsense that suits their political agenda a higher priority than the plain facts that any child can see in an atlas.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Bellman, snark, whatever, you obviously just don't know what you're talking about. Nor have you read all of the posts on this thread, or you have a neurodegenerative disorder affecting your memory. So to help you, I'll even reiterate what has been said before, and quote from Wiki, wrt the name "Britain"
The name Britain may be derived from the Brythonic 'Prydyn' (Goidelic: Cruithne), a name used to describe some northern inhabitants of the island by Britons or pre-Roman Celts in the south. "It was itself named Albion, while all the islands about which we shall soon briefly speak were called the Britanniae."
(from Wikipedia)
and
the "Great" bit of so called Great Britain is a historical term dating back to the middle ages and was originally intended to differentiate between the insular Britons on the island of Britain - "Great" Britain and the continental Britons who fled after the Saxon invasions across the sea to Armorica, or Brittany, or, believe it or not, "Little" Britain.
and
the British Isles means the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, Man, The Inner and Outer Hebrides, Orkneys, Shetlands, Wight, Anglesey, and all the rest of them.
Hope this helps. In other words Britain is not named after Brittany, but Brittany is historically Little Britain. And the fact that the term British Isles technically includes the island of Ireland, means it would make hee-haw difference to the name if Scotland left the union (as much as I personally would wish that to happen) because the name British Isles is a technical geographical term.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Origin and use are two different determinants of meaning. You cannot use historical arguments to unilaterally declare you have the correct meaning of a word.
E.G. 'Aweful' use to mean awesome
The term 'British' has taken on a different meaning for more than the last 50years. As such the term British Isles has a connotation that implies isles that are British.
I do not get too worked up about this as I live on the biggest British Isle of all (Oz) , but I feel there is very good argument against the use of the term as implied here.
How about "The Islands off the coast of Ireland". Why the need to lump these Isles together with one word.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"And the fact that the term British Isles technically includes the island of Ireland, means it would make hee-haw difference to the name if Scotland left the union (as much as I personally would wish that to happen) because the name British Isles is a technical geographical term."
That was what I meant in my brain-addled way. It would be obvious that it is just a technical geographical term, and people would no longer confuse Great Britain with the United Kingdom.
Also "Nor have you read all of the posts on this thread..." Of course not! It's far too long and uninteresting, but reiterating some of the things that get people going can be fun.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
It seems to me that the problem with "British" is its associations and symbolism. I notice that people have avoided addressing the issue of Irish people speaking "English" as their mother tongue if they haven't been brought up in the Gaeltacht speaking Irish. Does the fact that "English" can also be used in an adjectival sense ("English language") - and hence, by association, be symbolic of something historically negative - bother people, or is it viewed as "neutral"? i.e., do people always just say "I speak English" without even thinking about any such connotations? I'm genuinely curious...
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
>but reiterating some of the things that get people going can be fun.
As long as you don't mind being accused of having Alzheimer's, making sarky replies to the Snark can also be fun
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Mary-the-highlander has provided a musical link relevant to this argument. Here's another appropriate one to that great Dominic Behan song from the sixties:-
The sea, oh the sea, is the grá geal mo chroí
Long may it roll between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Thank God we're surrounded by water
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"making sarky replies to the Snark can also be fun"
Be my guest. Only yesterday it was wrote that I had been writting rubbish. I punched the air with a "Yesss" (although I had been writing sense, but who cares? I, for one, know that I and my views are not important. Even when I'm the only one who's right.)
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The problem here is that people care.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but calling me names will get your feckin head kicked in, as they say.
I'm not saying people shouldn't care. Who are we to dictater to anyone whether their feelings of oppression are real or imaginary?
"Niggers all work on de Mississippi,
Niggers all work while de white folks play..."
Oscar Hammerstein II, 1927
"Darkies all work on de Mississippi,
darkies all work while de white folks play..."
The 1936 film
"Coloured folk work on de Mississippi,
coloured folk work while de white folks play..."
A 1946 revival
"Here we all work on de Mississippi."
Another recorded version
Language is indeed an analogue system. And it's power to offend is one of the things that shapes it. But I imnplore anyone who is offended by any piece of language to first try to analyze why, before they return the offence. Jeremy dictates that I cannot write the word t w a t. But I can write the word bugger. I can write feck, but I can't write f u c k. If there was any logic to it, the problem would be solved.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"do people always just say "I speak English" without even thinking about any such connotations? "
Dow, you can join my campaign to get it called "this language" or "these words". That's where this logic would take us, if logic ever had anything to do with it. Should only take a few of us to convince Wikipedia that it's a mass movement, and a gullible diplomat or two.
That song appears to be somewhat revised Bannerman. Wasn't the third line "Poor old Scotland will never be free" ? At least that's how his brother Brendan had it.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I've never heard Brendan Behan singing it but I don't remember any mention of Scotland in the version made popular by the Ludlows folk group which was the one most of us sung in the swinging sixties - maybe it had been modified!
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Whatever about the merits or otherwise of the different arguments here, I think we'll all agree that this national identity thing definitely gets people going. The earlier thread on similar lines at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13919 has currently generated 162 responses so with this one on 120 (sorry 121 now) it gives a total of 283 which must be close to a record for such a short period of time.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The best one I've heard is 'The Atlantic Isles'. I like it because it doesn't favour one over the other. We shouldn't really be talking about the 'British' Isles as we're no longer part of Britain.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
As Danny notes: "The island called Ireland, all of it, is part of the unfortunately named British Isles, whoever decides to use the term or not. Just to be absolutely clear so we all know what we're talking about, the British Isles means the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, Man, The Inner and Outer Hebrides, Orkneys, Shetlands, Wight, Anglesey, and all the rest of them."
Just the way it is folks .. I don't like the term .. you don't like the term ... but the way of life is that smaller fella defers to the larger fella. The Brits run the bigger of the two islands, they get the call of history .. all we can do is ignore them. Just like I wouldn't care to vote for the F'ers in this country .. Fianna Fail or Fine Gael. But they're bigger, they carve up the power between them while pretending to be different and there's nought as the smaller fella that I can do about it :(
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
But, and this is the crux of the whole discussion Amhrán, the term "British Isles" never implied that you were part of Britain, any more than "English-speaker" implies you are English, as it's never been a political description but a broadly geographical one.
"Atlantic Isles" to mean just the British Isles is rather arrogant toward the Faroes, Iceland ,Bermuda, Newfoundland, Azores etc, isn't it - or are they included too? And where exactly is England's or Wales' Atlantic shore? No, that just won't do, especially when there's a perfectly good term already which is universally understood, even by those who are now offended by it. The test of whether something's right or not isn't that people take offence - people will always do that.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Who says "the Brits" (that was rhyming slang in Australia by the way - as in "those dodgy snags have given me the Jimmy Brits") came up with the name "British Isles" anyway?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
They had a special committee back in the 1600s charged with thinking up geographical names to just p*ss off certain Irish folk in the 21st century. Sort of a semantic sleeper cell.
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I can't beleive that some of the English are proud of horrible parts of thier history , Snark I am delighted that my english grammer is bad as I never had a choice about speaking it. thanks for that and finally in my best English...................
British isles me hole!
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
In his introduction to The Isles: A History, Norman Davies writes:
Many years later, having written Europe: a history, I was invited to give a lecture at University College, Dublin. After the presentation, someone in the audience asked about my current project. I started to reply that I was thinking of writing a history of 'the British—'. I then realized that in Dublin, of all places, one cannot fairly talk of 'the British Isles'. The Isles ceased to be British precisely fifty years ago when the Republic of Ireland left the Commonwealth, though few people in the British residue have yet cared to notice. Various clumsy alternatives were discussed, such as 'the British and Irish Isles', 'Europe's Offshore Islands', and the 'Anglo-Celtic Archipelago'. In the end, it was decided that the only decent name for the forthcoming book was 'A History of These Islands'. And such was one of several working titles until, after much trial and error, I eventually arrived The Isles: A History.
So, on Davies' authority, I propose we should safely use the term:
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Hmmmmm? ~ you would take a soft alternative that cannot cause controversy or ruffle any feathers... You, of all people, "The Isles", "These Isles", over here, in the East Atlantic, no, up a bit further, no further, you're almost there. Don't be daft, that's the Azores. Come in closer to shore, NO!, not that way, that's Newfoundland. That's better, no, you've overshot the mark, that's the Faroes, come on, don't give up now, down a little ~ aw jeez, don't give up now... What, you know a session in the Shetlands, well, sounds good to me, I've always loved the music from those 'Isles'...
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
OK then. Here's some real feather ruffling, yet probably ethnically or at least politically more accurate than anything else suggested. Considering the amount of territory held by the Vikings and their heirs the Normans, in both Great Britain and Ireland, and for the length of time they held sway, surely we should refer to these islands as the Scandinavian Isles?
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I've used 'The Isles' as a name ever since I read that book. The Norman Davis tome is excellent, although I got bored around the Hanoverians.
I think it was his book that proposed the real problem for the Isles was the fact it has ruled from the south-east of England - and area which has a vastly disproportionate influence for its size on all the Isles inhabitants outside of the English home counties - a fact that remains all too true to this day.
Another book which has an alternative history of the Isles is The Sea Kingdoms by Alistair Moffatt, which argues the real history of the Islands has been dominated by the Anglo-Saxon version of our history, and proposes an alternative version based on the seafaring nations around the western coast of Wales, Scotland, Cornwall and England and Ireland. Highly recommended.
Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Following on from the recent discussion, any thoughts?
The Celtic Isles?
...or would that annoy too many Rangers fans?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Nice one Danny, I'm gonna enjoy this one too
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The British Islands?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The North Atlantic Buffer Zone
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by longtail
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Seriously though, and without flame
Alternative terms from Wikipedia
There are several terms that are used as alternatives for the term British Isles.
Sometimes, an ambiguous phrase such as "these Isles" or "the Isles" is used, thus utilising the same logic used when referring to the Persian Gulf as "the Gulf". "These Islands" was used in Strand Three of the Good Friday Agreement to establish the British-Irish Council, and has been described as the favoured term of Irish politicians.[34]
Probably the most common alternative term in modern usage is "Great Britain and Ireland", or more simply, "Britain and Ireland". This is very common and almost entirely uncontroversial, although it may be felt to neglect smaller islands in the archipelago and is ambiguous concerning the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.
Although considerably less common another term that is sometimes used is British Isles and Ireland. Similar to "Great Britain and Ireland", this has been used in a variety of areas; among others religion,[35] nursing,[36] zoological publications,[37] academia,[38] and other sources. This form of title is also used in some book titles[39] and in various legal publications.[40] This usage, however, implies that Northern Ireland is not part of the British Isles, which causes problems in itself.
Some live UK television shows such as the X Factor allow voting from the Republic of Ireland and hold auditions in Dublin, and use terminology such as "UK and Ireland" on voting lines. This is also common for copyright notices on DVDs and CDs. UK TV weather forecasts continue to show the British Isles area opposed to cutting the Republic of Ireland out, although the weather for the Republic is rarely mentioned explicitly. In the Republic of Ireland, weather forecasts typically show the islands of Ireland.
In the context of the Northern Ireland peace process the term Islands of the North Atlantic (IONA), a term initially created by then Conservative Party MP Sir John Biggs-Davison,[41] has been used as a neutral term to describe the "British Isles", but in a wider context the term might be misunderstood as including Iceland, Greenland, the Azores and other islands.
IONA has been used by among others the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern.
“ The Government are, of course, conscious of the emphasis that is laid on the East-West dimension by Unionists, and we are, ourselves, very mindful of the unique relationships that exist within these islands — islands of the North Atlantic or IONA as some have termed them.[42] ”
It has also been adopted by the British National Party, in their 'Project-IONA', [43] an attempt to make a collection of the cultural artefacts of the islands. [44] The party does, however, use the term British Isles elsewhere; for example in their declared wish for a return of "Éire as well as Ulster as equal partners in[to] a federation of the nations of the British Isles" [45]
Others have interpreted the term more narrowly to mean the Council of the Isles or British-Irish Council. Peter Luff MP told the British House of Commons in 1998 that
“ In the same context, there will be a council of the isles. I think that some people are calling it IONA — the islands of the north Atlantic, from which England, by definition, will be excluded.[46] ”
His interpretation, as Ahern's comment earlier shows, is not widely held, particularly in Ireland, where IONA is seen as a parallel to either the British Islands or the British Isles. In 1997 the leader of the Green Party, Trevor Sargent, discussing the Strand Three (or East-West) talks between the Republic and the United Kingdom, commented in Dáil Éireann:
“ I noted with interest the naming of the islands of the north Atlantic under the acronym IONA which the Green Party felt was extremely appropriate.[47] ”
His comments were echoed by Proinsias De Rossa, then leader of Democratic Left and later President of the Irish Labour Party when both parties merged, who told the Dáil "The acronym IONA is a useful way of addressing the coming together of these two islands."[48]
Anglo-Celtic Isles has been used in academia for the isles.[49][50] This reflects the supposed ethnic make up of the islands of the 'Celtic' peoples — the Irish, Manx, Scottish, Cornish and Welsh — and the 'Anglo-Saxon' peoples, the English.
The 'Celtica' often refered to by political Celticists such as the Celtic League, which includes all of the islands and Brittany in Western France (excluding England and the Channel Islands), is one of the many cultural-political ways of interpreting a future for the geographical region. If highly fanciful, it is not without romantic merit.
The British government currently uses British Islands (as defined in the Interpretation Act, 1978) to refer to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, together with the Crown Dependencies: the Bailiwicks of Jersey and of Guernsey (which in turn includes the smaller islands of Alderney, Herm and Sark) in the Channel Islands; and the Isle of Man.
Some academics in the 1990s and early 2000s also used the term northwest European archipelago.[51] Usage however appears sporadic in historiography and rarely repeated outside it, to date.
The name the West European Isles is one translation of the islands' name in Irish[52] and Manx Gaelic.[53]—but explicit "British Isle" terms also exist in Irish[54] and Manx[55]. A somewhat similar usage exists in Iceland. "Westman" is the Icelandic name for a person from Ireland or Britain and "Western Lands" is the translation of the name for these islands in Icelandic.[56]
A return to Pytheas's original term, Pretanic Isles (or Pretannic Isles) has been suggested sporadically and has seen some usage in academic contexts, particularly in reference to the islands in a pre-Roman context. [57]
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I always liked Lawrence Durrell's name,Pudding Island.I suppose it's a bit out of date nowadays.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by dafydd
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
How about the..
I nhabited
R egions of
E uropean
L ands
A tlantically
N estled
D ere at the top left.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"Westman" is the Icelandic name for a person from Ireland or Britain and "Western Lands" is the translation of the name for these islands in Icelandic." - From Dows post
I like this one.. we are all 'westmen'
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I like the Pretanic Isles.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I quite like "Albion" for Britain, too.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
From now on, if I go over to Britain and Ireland on holiday from Oz, I'm going to tell my friends I'm "going for a holiday in the Pretanic Isles". It's sounds like an exotic destination
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
...whereas of course, the fact is that in reality, the whole island group is a rainy, miserable sh1thole.
What about the "Rainy Isles".
Or the "Whinger Isles". An inhabitant could be a "Whinger" with a capital "W". Unfortunately it might cause confusion over here in Australia, where it might be assumed that "Whinger" referred specifically to the Poms.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"The Drizzle Isles"
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
What about "The Antipodes of New Zealand"?
maybe not...............
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
This is definitely an emotive issue having generated over 160 posts in a couple of days on another post. I was just about to add my views but found a similar argument from a more eminent source posted by Saint which is close to what I would have said.
"I can do no better than repeat the words of an Irish Embassy spokesman in London quoted by The Times of London a few months ago: "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage." Amen to that !"
Ireland (apart from 6 counties) ceased to be part of the British Empire more than 80 years ago so why do we persist in maintaining a fictional link between two distinct and independent states - It's very simple; Ireland is Ireland and Britain is Britain!
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Call the whole lot "Sliabh Luachra" and be done with it.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Come on, Banners, that doesn't answer the question.
The fact is that if you look on the map, these islands area distinct geographical identity - an archipelago. Imagine calling the West Indies the Cuban Isles or Indonesia the Bornean Isles after their biggest components (Cuba or Borneo - I think.)
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The Hawaiian Archipelago's largest island is named "Hawaii".
Hail, Pretannia!
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by joesmith
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"The fact is that if you look on the map, these islands area distinct geographical identity - an archipelago."
I agree and this is regardless of whether or not certain countries are now(Ireland) or might be, e.g Scotland and Wales independent countries.
In Scandinavia, for instance, the countries of Denmark, Norway and Sweden etc all had disagreements with each other...Denmark ruled them all, at one point... but they still have close links and don't object to being referred to as part of Scandinavia.
In spite of all our past troubles, England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales and the other islands also have very close important links. We still do get on very well, in the main, actually and have a lot in common.
I can see no problem with our islands as a whole having a "geographical" name but "British" is obviously not suitable. It would have to be a term acceptable to all.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Johannes J
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
How about the Dominions of Cnut?http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/England/maps/mshcanut.jpg (did that get past the spell-check?)
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by RichardB
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I have to admit, my conern over the naming of the entity in question is this: if we ignore the fact that, until the last 100 years, there were definite links between Britain and Ireland then we encourage people to look at the native musics of England, Northumbria & Scotland and the native music of Ireland as independant. Which they quite clearly aren't.
This is partially caused by the problem that when disussing a lot of traditional music then you're dealing with music originating prior to (i.e. over 100 years ago) the drawing up of the current political boundaries. Whilst people might desire a name for the entity that doesn't suggest political ownership of Ireland by Britain; I don't think, from a musical perspective, it's pragmatic to debate whether the entity exists or not.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Canute ruled Denmark and Norway also. They may or may not be happy to be included
Andy - not quite sure what you meant, other than your two paragraphs sounding contradictory to one another. If the native musics aren't independent, then why isn't it pragmatic to debate whether the entity exists or not? Sorry, probably just me reading you incorrectly.
In this case, what we need to do is find a musical form ubiquitous to all the indigenous musical traditions.
So:
The Hornpipe Isles?
too weird.
The Schottische Isles?
Yeah, that's close. So maybe we should just shorten that to the more comprehensible:
Scottish Isles.
There. That'll do.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"we encourage people to look at the native musics of England, Northumbria & Scotland and the native music of Ireland as independant. Which they quite clearly aren't."
I hope (and presume) I picked you up wrong andy, but are you trying to say that the aforementioned traditional musical styles are the same?
The traditional music of England, Northumbria, Scotland and Ireland are completely different. Granted some obviously share a common root and have good similarities but they are all individual.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Hey, no fair Danny, check out my second reply, I already had that sneaky idea
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Land of silly accents
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by mcknowall
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Any 'entity' has parts, its not just some undefined blob called 'entity': it might have 'hand', 'head', 'heart' and (where morris dancing and banjoes are concerned) 'arse'. In fact, given the diversity of parts the impression of separateness is sometimes stark, and there are movements/parts that have existed in the 'entity' for so long that they are fairly unfamiliar with each other and their respective socio cultural/ political settings at this stage (the Irish Sean os singing of Connemara and morris dancing in Somerset, for example).
If we extend this to the strong influences of the past, and remaining traditional influences, from mainland Europe and the US then the 'entity' suddenly looses even more shape and starts to become a very ethereal beast altogether.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Above in reply to Newcastle Andy, BTW.
H.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
As we now all aspire to being good Europeans, what about the West European Isles!
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Savage, Andy said they're not independent ie they depend on each other. And they do. Not quite the same as saying they're not different from one another, which they are. You're not going to disagree with that are you?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
No Danny. As I said above I was pretty sure I picked him up wrong.
I'm not actually a disagreeable person....honest.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
New America
The Greater Blasket Islands (the name "Blasket" IMO expresses in an unrivalled way the blasting, blanketing, drenching, freezing fog in which we are often encased, and to which Dow has referred in other words...)
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by nicholas
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
As an Englishman - ney make that a Staffordshire man (and proud) I am happy with the geographical appelation. As much as I am with the homophonic, (if confusing orally) Ireland/Island.
How about the Western Archepeligo of Europe - the West Euries NOT.
NZ have North Island and the Mainland unless you are from the North Island. Then it is South Island (with Mouth Island a little to the West).
Neighbourly ribaldry was ever thus.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Mr Red
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The route from Sean Nos to Morris dancing, whilst not direct, does exist (this is probably one of the longer routes). A potential route (and you'll have to excuse the fact that I don't know an awful lot about singing in Connemara) might be: Sean Nos singing -- the playing of slow airs on pipes -- the dance music of Ireland -- the dance music of Scotland -- the dance music of Northumbria -- the dance music of England -- Morris dancing.
My point was this - those links shouldn't be ignored just because of some politio-religious disagreement between two areas which springs a desire for separation. Which is why it's not terribly pragmatic to discuss whether or not some form of "British Isles + Ireland" entity exists -because it's seldom done on musical grounds.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Not homophonic to me. Or 5.2 million other Scots or another 5.6 million Irish! Sorry. The two words sound totally different.
I don't like the term IONA as it's hijacking an existing Scottish island name.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
bad example - Morris dancing came from Spain during Elizabethan times.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The 'route' to Morris dance 'from' sean nos is not as clear cut as you or I are making it out to be. Your road map is simplistic at best. Besides, it is of little relevance to the practitioners of both, which is more to the real point. Because people invent, and reinvent, their place and times and culture for themselves regardless of the subtleties of history real or imagined. And the British have certainly invented quite a little niche for themselves in the consciousness of the island of Ireland, in fact several little niches.
"Entity" is, and will remain, a relative value in this respect then.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"bad example - Morris dancing came from Spain during Elizabethan times."
Oh to the contrary, a very good example of just how unpredictable and shaky the 'entity' is.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Its simple England is called England, Ireland is Ireland and if you want a group name its europe.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Saint
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Why is it not obvious that "British" in "British Isles" is not a posessive adjective but merely geographically associative? Is that too hard?
If we called them the West European Isles nobody would think that meant that they are in some way ruled by West Europe.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
then call briton the british isles if you want just don't link ireland with the british isles. Its Simple Irish people should have a choice or at least a say in the name and no Irish man/woman had a say in this.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Saint
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Bellman, is it not obvious that "British" in "British Isles" is considered offensive to many Irish people, as has been shown by the amount of replies this thread hsa evoked in such a short space of time?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Eddies car .The car belongs to eddie
British Isles . The Isles belong to the British.
Can we see the problem yet.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Saint
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Hi Andy
Just want to clarify that I dont dispute the connections between each tradtitional music.
With all of us being so close to each other a certain amount of 'cross pollination' is natural.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Well put saint.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Well, seeing as everyone seems intent on expressing our differences rather than our common hertiage then I vote for 'The Sanguine Isles".
That way all the optimists can be cheerful about our collective future, and the rest can use it's more archaic meaning and be assured of their own correctitide about the how the past will dictate the future of our peoples.
Failing that, any chance of 'The Whelk Isles'?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The brits(of the time) put names on everything in Ireland .How dare they ,what rights had they to do this .e.g. Queenstown ,The Victoria Hotel,Queens University ,King williams town and so on, So the people who insist on using terms like the british isles don't have much hope in my opinion ,after all it has been explained in the most simple way.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Saint
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
At the end of the day there is no reason to put a name on this area of the world because it alredy has its own name and if anyone from mars wants to send a letter the following adress should get to Ireland.
Mr. Jack Union
32 Free Ireland Road,
Dublin 4,
Ireland,
Europe,
The Planet Earth,
And this should do ,see no need for the British Isles
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Saint
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"these isles" is a bad joke which hopefully will not escape from Irish politics
what do they become when you're not standing on them, "those isles"?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I like "The Scottish Isles". Might be a bit divisive, though. How about "The Greater Hebrides" instead?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by kennedy
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Bren,
Tell it to Skippy, and how dare you over there in the colonies contemplate further eroding the glorious commonwealth?
Her majesty was so upset she looked the place up on a map!
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The US's Dangleberries?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I wasn't trying to suggest how one has lead to the other - I was suggesting how,by slicing through that chain, you impose politics on a system which developed prior to the existance of those politics. Each one of the elements in that chain links firmly to the one before & after it. And yes, it's a fairly simplistic picture (such is the nature of internet message boards). But do you actually claim any of the links to be wrong?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
In any case why do we have to be anybody's isle? New Zealand is never referred to as an Australian Isle nor Iceland as a Norwegian Island and I don't think the West Indies would be over the moon about being classed as the Cuban Isles!
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
It doesn't matter to me if they are right or wrong, if it does exist it seems irrelevant to they way that both movements exist in real on-going people's lives.
Irish music has influenced, and continues to influence, morris repertory in myriad ways I'm sure. Big deal, its a small geographic area with much in common. Still, it doesn't make me want to associate myself with things 'British', it doesn't make me feel 'British' and it doesn't make me see the 'British' political and military entities in any different light. That's the reality my man, text books aside.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Agree heartily Harry - I don't feel 'British' either.
The artifice that is 'Britishness' and all the associations that go with it mean the geographical term 'Britain' whether great or otherwise carries too many negative connotations.
However, I think a strong case exists for an inclusive geographical name for our Islands because like it or not we are all interconnected and have much in common - brothers and sisters rather than cousins.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"However, I think a strong case exists for an inclusive geographical name for our Islands because like it or not we are all interconnected and have much in common - brothers and sisters rather than cousins."
Maybe, but don't leave it to some British think-tank to dream it up, it'll probably be used in justification for some invasion of somewhere or other.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Can we rename the "Irish" sea while we're at it?
The current name implies that it's owned by Ireland, thus disenfranchising those in Wales, Scotland, England, Isle of Man, Isles of Scilly, those puffins on Lundy Island descended from 16th century north african pirates etc.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Ceratonia
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Thats only fair Ceratonia.
So if we all decide to go with sugarfoot and call these islands the US's Dangleberries islands, then we can change the name of the irish sea to US's Dangleberries sea.
A fair compromise it think
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
But Lundy Island is in the *Bristol* Channel. Yet administratively it's in Devon.
So, what about the English Channel? I say give it a more modern name - what about calling it the Tunnel Channel.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
This site doesn't seem to me to be a place for the discussion of political or military actions, or a debate concerning cultural identity. If people wish to discuss that here, I'm largely unconcerned. However, I'll cheerfully reserve the right to discuss the ethnomusicological side as I feel it's more pertinant.
I think it'd be fair to point out - Great Britain comprises of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (at present). So this debate isn't really about whether Ireland is a separate political region - it clearly is. However, from an ethnomusicologist's point of view, Great Britain and Ireland are best considered as one umbrella region - no matter what they're called.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Which enthomusicologist? Do they aqll sing from the one song sheet like idiots?
I know, and have worked with, several who would disagree.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Is "umbrella region" an established and quantifiable ethnomusicological term and/or value? If so please direct me to the relevant study.
Thanks,
harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"Great Britain comprises of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland"
Wrong.
Great Britain is the bigger of the two islands comprising what is erroneously called the British Isles.
The *United Kingdom* is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
That is fact. Please get yours right.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: 'Ere's yer better name for the Br***sh Isles:
The theme park angle has--strangely--been overlooked: It should be "Englandland" and "Irelandland" in the Disney-run "Quaint Isles". Or, the "Tea Cozy Isles".
All inhabitants could hasten this becoming a reality by, please, wearing costumes representing the more charming eras of your particular "Q.I." Modern attire disappoints every tourist.
Gordon Brown looks smashing in a Morris kit, for example. And an unshaven Bertie Ahern cutting turf with a jug of poteen propped atop a nearby stone wall also works well.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Danny, beat me to it. However, that seems to be semantics - considering the Kingdom of Great Britain would have been entirely accurate.
Harry, I pertain to A.L. Lloyd, with reference to Elbourne, Karpeles (if you have a JSOTR access or access to the JIFMC/YIFMC over the past 52 years I can probably point you to the pieces I refer to). And, no, "umbrella region" was my attempt to describe the sum of the English, Northumbrian, Scottish, Irish and Shetland musics in order to keep this comprehensible to the casual reader. I suspect you might have guessed that though?
Have we finally reached a stage where the manner of the point is more important than the actual point?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Andy V
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
How about Region 13-B? Does that offend anybody?
I often refer to the collective as "The Islands" and if anyone should ever ask, "Which islands?", I shall list them.
Y'know, there's no satisfactory answer.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Harry
I thought ethnomusicologists were like economists, in that, if you asked 10 of them the same question, you'd get at least 20 different answers ...
And Danny, since you're talking about getting facts right, there is, factually speaking, no way you can describe the term 'British Isles' as "erroneous". It is a *factually* and historically correct description. But that's not what we're talking about. It may be "factually" correct, but it appears, in different quarters, to be *politically* incorrect.
And the United Kingdom is, indeed, "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" now, but, obviously, wasn't always. It started off with the union of Scotland and England (Wales being, as always, completely ignored and treated as just a province of England - hence no reference in the flag - bloody typical) and then later Ireland joined, and later still, most of it left.
If the term 'British Isles' is now offensive to some, then fine - I can accept that. But it can't be argued as being offensive by reference to history or facts, or anything of that sort.
btw, I'd go with Dow's 'Pretanic Isles', except that I'm surprised nobody objected to it, since it is, after all, just a straight translation of 'British Isles'.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I can never understand why these Newspeak enthusiasts don't get onto the tourism bodies in Limerick and Leitrim etc who continue to insist that the Shannnon is "the longest river in the British Isles", before battering us hapless foreigners with their accusations, and weaselly "it is considered" passive voice phrases. Perhaps if it was the second longest river they'd be happier. Saying the longest river in "Britain and Ireland" would sound even worse to me, implying they are a oneness, like "England and Wales" in smoking bans etc
By the way, I am now officially offended and insulted by those (you know who you are) who describe the language of this board as "English". I for one am not English, never was English and never plan to be English. Surely this is the most insidious form of cultural imperialism ever devised and I suggest those who do not wish to carry on *deliberately* offending and insulting me in this *out-dated* way (because fashion is important too) henceforth refer to the language as "these words".
And Harry, I've already told it to Skippy
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"and then later Ireland joined, and later still, most of it left." - Sorry ben, I must strongly disagree with this statement. Ireland never joined but forcibly was coerced into the Union after the brutal supression of the United Irishmen's attempt to set up an independent republic in 1798. This is getting very serious and maybe we should attempt to get back to the tunes even if it's just to compare the relative merits of "The Sash" and "Roddy McCorley" !
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Colonial history seems all well and good when the feel good factor is high. Its amazing what'll be rolled our for the strangest reasons. At any rate the Empire is dead, the Union is dying, the Irish language is in reasonably good shape and our culture is the envy of Europe and the world... don't get me wrong, I'm not overly nervous or anything.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"London and the Surrounding Environs"
It's the only way to describe it, really.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
not to get too pedantic Bannerman, but forcible joining is joining just as much as voluntary joining is. As any butt-welder knows
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
how's about my favorite bon mot from "trainspotting":
"Colonized by tossers"
(this is also on my possible-band-names list)
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by ceemonster
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The end result may be the same Bren but if you compare the Act of Union entered into under duress with becoming a member of the EU entered into with the agreement of the majority of the people in Ireland I don't think the butt-welding analogy applies.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I'm a catholic, and tend to have sympathy with other catholics wherever (for no very good reason). And my understanding was that the - catholic - majority at the time *was* in favour of the union. As was the Irish parliament (protestant); and that the (protestant - or at least started by protestants) United Irishmen were rather disapproved of by the catholic majority in Ireland.
I'm perfectly willing to be persuaded that there is another view ...
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Ben, whether or not the term British Isles is factually and historically correct, which I agree it is, it erroneously describes the islands in question as the description includes a non-British isle, ie Ireland. So therefore they are erroneously called the British Isles. As I previously stated. Other place names may also be erroneous descriptions, but historically factually correct, such as Greenland, which is mostly white due to ice, but the Vikings who discovered it called it green to sell it to the folks back home whom they tried to entice to emigrate to there. But the name Greenland not Iceland is the historically correct one.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
How about "the Isles formerly known as British"... and we could figure out a cool symbol to use too... like § or something
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Reverend
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I like that one, Pete.
or...
"This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this [your name here]."
But that may be too long to fit on the currency?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Batlady
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Ben, I don't think we can kid ourselves that the niceties of democracy we enjoy today obtained in 18th century Ireland so I'd be very reluctant to say what the majority of catholics or protestants favoured. It is a fact, however, that the United Irishmen made up of various religions including both catholic, presbyterian and others, wished to inroduce the values of republicanism (already prevalent in Europe since the 1789 French revolution) whose ideals of "power to the people" would in theory liberate all peoples on the island. Had their project succeeded, we might have been spared over 200 years of strife and sectarianism on the island and we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Since the Island of Ireland *was* considered British for some thousands of years - the word British coming from the same (celtic) root as Dow's 'Pretanic' - I can't see how it is erroneous.
I suppose the point is that once, the word 'British' did indeed apply to people from all over these islands, but now it doesn't.
So, when, *exactly*, did the term become "erroneous"?
For some hundreds of years, Ireland was part of the kingdom of England (!) - an indignity suffered for a far longer time by the Welsh. At least Ireland got recognition from the moment of union - something that Wales still hasn't got - just a province of England.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I'm amazed how uptight everybody gets about this question.
Why don't you just call your islands HOME?
To me they're simply NCE = Non Continental Europe.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by kuec
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Yes ... what?!!? You know how to wound.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Southeast Iceland
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Bannerman. I do actually know what you mean. And I'm really not trying to be ignorant or offensive, not that you've said I am, but anyway, honest, I'm not.
I'm trying to put a different point of view partly because I think the situation is so complicated, none of us, Irish, English, Welsh (me, I'm half Cornish brought up in Wales) or whatever, can quite grasp it all, and partly because I'd really like to rehabilitate the word British - which *is*, after all, a celtic word. I mean, it's not as if it's 'English' or anything like that.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"The end result may be the same Bren but if you compare the Act of Union entered into under duress with becoming a member of the EU entered into with the agreement of the majority of the people in Ireland I don't think the butt-welding analogy applies."
Bannerman you seem to be objecting to the word "join" in this context (a context which was not apparent in your earlier post) because you object to the thing it describes Or because of the historical subtext you see underneath it. But they are separate things.
That is my problem with this proscriptive approach to language.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Join implies a consensual act which the Act of Union certainly was not!
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Whats wrong with the British Isles?
We are part of Britain after all?
Even if you are in England, Wales, Scotland or Ireland.
British doesnt equal one of those countries seperately.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by creathana
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Ireland is not part of Britain - how many times does this have to be said.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Saint wrote:
>Eddies car .The car belongs to eddie
>British Isles . The Isles belong to the British.
>Can we see the problem yet.
The only problem I can see here is that you are (perhaps out of obstinacy) failing to see how the English language works, including in its Irish version.
First of all, it should not be "Eddies car" but "Eddie's car", because it is a possessive.
The "British" in "British Isles" is not a possessive, it is descriptive of an association, in this case geographical. It is no more possessive than "Irish Sea", which does not belong to the Irish, "English Channel", which does not belong to the English, "French toast" which does not belong to the French, Greek salad which .... I think I made my point.
If you choose to fail to understand that, then fine. *Don't use the phrase.* I may even avoid using it, in order to be nice to you. But don't expect the rest of the world to suddenly start pretending the term doesn't mean what it used to mean just because you don't like it.
Didn't I say the other day that half the problem is that people don't know how to use apostrophes?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"Join implies a consensual act"
No, it doesn't. Can't put it clearer than that. It's a neutral word. A stream can join a river without taking a vote on it.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I really don't understand the necessity for conversations like this as it clearly points to lack of knowledge and/or understanding more than anything else.
What it boils down to is pure semantics.
The Republic of Ireland is not a part of the British Isles.
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the constituent countries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, hence this is why people think Ireland is roped in but, politically, socially and geographically it isn't.
The Republic does not use the term, the British Government actively discourages the use of the term so I don't see how this thread's question can be a valid one.
(Great analogy, Bren!).
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by UncleNobby'sSteamboat
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Yes it is. The island called Ireland, all of it, is part of the unfortunately named British Isles, whoever decides to use the term or not. Just to be absolutely clear so we all know what we're talking about, the British Isles means the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, Man, The Inner and Outer Hebrides, Orkneys, Shetlands, Wight, Anglesey, and all the rest of them.
I don't know if it includes the Channel Islands (probably not) and pretty sure not the Faroes
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7291
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Like I said, what it boils down to is pure semantics.
*chuckle*
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by UncleNobby'sSteamboat
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Ok Wittgenstein, you know best.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Oh no, really, you have your British Isles, darlin'.
I'll just continue smokin' my pipe.
*chuckle*
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by UncleNobby'sSteamboat
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Gosh, you sound like such a wise superior intellectual type of person. Yet so laid back. Gee, thanks for sparing the time to talk to me. Oh my, I feel really humbled now, what can I say?
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The problem would be over if only the old Scots would secede from the Union. Then it would be obvious - Scotland would still, of course, be part of Great Britain - it would take a damned big trench to change that! The RoI would still be part of the island of Ireland, and another part (did I hear somebody say unfortunately?) would still be part of the UK.
But the UK would no longer be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, because part of Great Britain would no longer be in it. It would presumably be the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. At this point it would be obvious that the British Isles meant what until now it has meant - a bunch of islands of the coast of Europe, long ago named for their proximity to Brittany. And why not? It does not mean that they belong to a French province, after all, it's just a geographical association... hey, isn't that where I came in?
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Argiebargie Archipelago
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by fidkid
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Swearing that black is white is a technique with a long tradition. It has been pointed out that an unnamed Irish Embassy spokesman in London was quoted by The Times of London last October as saying "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms."
Assuming that bizarre levels of stupidity and blindness do not lie behind this statement, it suggests that the supposed spokesman gives nonsense that suits their political agenda a higher priority than the plain facts that any child can see in an atlas.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Whilst solving the problem, please make some provision for including Quebec; just in case it does ultimately need someplace to go.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by oldstrings
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Bellman, snark, whatever, you obviously just don't know what you're talking about. Nor have you read all of the posts on this thread, or you have a neurodegenerative disorder affecting your memory. So to help you, I'll even reiterate what has been said before, and quote from Wiki, wrt the name "Britain"
The name Britain may be derived from the Brythonic 'Prydyn' (Goidelic: Cruithne), a name used to describe some northern inhabitants of the island by Britons or pre-Roman Celts in the south. "It was itself named Albion, while all the islands about which we shall soon briefly speak were called the Britanniae."
(from Wikipedia)
and
the "Great" bit of so called Great Britain is a historical term dating back to the middle ages and was originally intended to differentiate between the insular Britons on the island of Britain - "Great" Britain and the continental Britons who fled after the Saxon invasions across the sea to Armorica, or Brittany, or, believe it or not, "Little" Britain.
and
the British Isles means the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, Man, The Inner and Outer Hebrides, Orkneys, Shetlands, Wight, Anglesey, and all the rest of them.
Hope this helps. In other words Britain is not named after Brittany, but Brittany is historically Little Britain. And the fact that the term British Isles technically includes the island of Ireland, means it would make hee-haw difference to the name if Scotland left the union (as much as I personally would wish that to happen) because the name British Isles is a technical geographical term.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Never call the Orkney Islands the 'Orkneys'.
It's like saying Ireland's part of the British Isles.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"if only the old Scots would secede from the Union"
I'm not sure why only old Scots should secede - anyway in Glasgow that would mean anyone over 45
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I just call them "Orkney" Sugarfoot. They are quite tolerant up there unlikely to throw hissy fits at small breaches of protocol
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Origin and use are two different determinants of meaning. You cannot use historical arguments to unilaterally declare you have the correct meaning of a word.
, but I feel there is very good argument against the use of the term as implied here.
E.G. 'Aweful' use to mean awesome
The term 'British' has taken on a different meaning for more than the last 50years. As such the term British Isles has a connotation that implies isles that are British.
I do not get too worked up about this as I live on the biggest British Isle of all (Oz)
How about "The Islands off the coast of Ireland". Why the need to lump these Isles together with one word.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Donough
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"And the fact that the term British Isles technically includes the island of Ireland, means it would make hee-haw difference to the name if Scotland left the union (as much as I personally would wish that to happen) because the name British Isles is a technical geographical term."
That was what I meant in my brain-addled way. It would be obvious that it is just a technical geographical term, and people would no longer confuse Great Britain with the United Kingdom.
Also "Nor have you read all of the posts on this thread..." Of course not! It's far too long and uninteresting, but reiterating some of the things that get people going can be fun.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
It seems to me that the problem with "British" is its associations and symbolism. I notice that people have avoided addressing the issue of Irish people speaking "English" as their mother tongue if they haven't been brought up in the Gaeltacht speaking Irish. Does the fact that "English" can also be used in an adjectival sense ("English language") - and hence, by association, be symbolic of something historically negative - bother people, or is it viewed as "neutral"? i.e., do people always just say "I speak English" without even thinking about any such connotations? I'm genuinely curious...
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Dow
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I know Bren : ) Thinking about it, I call them Orkney too. I hope to go back one day to stand in the mighty Ring of Brodgar.
Nice people too, even to unclean English tossers like us.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
>but reiterating some of the things that get people going can be fun.
As long as you don't mind being accused of having Alzheimer's, making sarky replies to the Snark can also be fun
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Mary-the-highlander has provided a musical link relevant to this argument. Here's another appropriate one to that great Dominic Behan song from the sixties:-
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2611
The sea, oh the sea, is the grá geal mo chroí
Long may it roll between England and me
It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free
Thank God we're surrounded by water
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"making sarky replies to the Snark can also be fun"
Be my guest. Only yesterday it was wrote that I had been writting rubbish. I punched the air with a "Yesss" (although I had been writing sense, but who cares? I, for one, know that I and my views are not important. Even when I'm the only one who's right.)
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The problem here is that people care.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but calling me names will get your feckin head kicked in, as they say.
I'm not saying people shouldn't care. Who are we to dictater to anyone whether their feelings of oppression are real or imaginary?
"Niggers all work on de Mississippi,
Niggers all work while de white folks play..."
Oscar Hammerstein II, 1927
"Darkies all work on de Mississippi,
darkies all work while de white folks play..."
The 1936 film
"Coloured folk work on de Mississippi,
coloured folk work while de white folks play..."
A 1946 revival
"Here we all work on de Mississippi."
Another recorded version
Language is indeed an analogue system. And it's power to offend is one of the things that shapes it. But I imnplore anyone who is offended by any piece of language to first try to analyze why, before they return the offence. Jeremy dictates that I cannot write the word t w a t. But I can write the word bugger. I can write feck, but I can't write f u c k. If there was any logic to it, the problem would be solved.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by llig leahcim
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"do people always just say "I speak English" without even thinking about any such connotations? "
Dow, you can join my campaign to get it called "this language" or "these words". That's where this logic would take us, if logic ever had anything to do with it. Should only take a few of us to convince Wikipedia that it's a mass movement, and a gullible diplomat or two.
That song appears to be somewhat revised Bannerman. Wasn't the third line "Poor old Scotland will never be free" ? At least that's how his brother Brendan had it.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I've never heard Brendan Behan singing it but I don't remember any mention of Scotland in the version made popular by the Ludlows folk group which was the one most of us sung in the swinging sixties - maybe it had been modified!
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Whatever about the merits or otherwise of the different arguments here, I think we'll all agree that this national identity thing definitely gets people going. The earlier thread on similar lines at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13919 has currently generated 162 responses so with this one on 120 (sorry 121 now) it gives a total of 283 which must be close to a record for such a short period of time.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
The best one I've heard is 'The Atlantic Isles'. I like it because it doesn't favour one over the other. We shouldn't really be talking about the 'British' Isles as we're no longer part of Britain.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by amhrán
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
As Danny notes: "The island called Ireland, all of it, is part of the unfortunately named British Isles, whoever decides to use the term or not. Just to be absolutely clear so we all know what we're talking about, the British Isles means the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, Man, The Inner and Outer Hebrides, Orkneys, Shetlands, Wight, Anglesey, and all the rest of them."
Just the way it is folks .. I don't like the term .. you don't like the term ... but the way of life is that smaller fella defers to the larger fella. The Brits run the bigger of the two islands, they get the call of history .. all we can do is ignore them. Just like I wouldn't care to vote for the F'ers in this country .. Fianna Fail or Fine Gael. But they're bigger, they carve up the power between them while pretending to be different and there's nought as the smaller fella that I can do about it :(
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
But, and this is the crux of the whole discussion Amhrán, the term "British Isles" never implied that you were part of Britain, any more than "English-speaker" implies you are English, as it's never been a political description but a broadly geographical one.
"Atlantic Isles" to mean just the British Isles is rather arrogant toward the Faroes, Iceland ,Bermuda, Newfoundland, Azores etc, isn't it - or are they included too? And where exactly is England's or Wales' Atlantic shore? No, that just won't do, especially when there's a perfectly good term already which is universally understood, even by those who are now offended by it. The test of whether something's right or not isn't that people take offence - people will always do that.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
"The Brits run the bigger of the two islands, they get the call of history"
Who exactly do you mean by this? English, Scottish and Welsh?
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Who says "the Brits" (that was rhyming slang in Australia by the way - as in "those dodgy snags have given me the Jimmy Brits") came up with the name "British Isles" anyway?
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I mean the people who run that larger island across the Irish Sea.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by the wounded hussar
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Ah right. That'd be the Government then.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
They had a special committee back in the 1600s charged with thinking up geographical names to just p*ss off certain Irish folk in the 21st century. Sort of a semantic sleeper cell.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Atlantis II
or
The Sullen Sisters
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I can't beleive that some of the English are proud of horrible parts of thier history , Snark I am delighted that my english grammer is bad as I never had a choice about speaking it. thanks for that and finally in my best English...................
British isles me hole!
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Saint
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
No country has the monopoly on a---holes.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Jesus Christ, Eddie(saint) what are you doing online? You're supposed to be doing your Bouzouki homework! Get back to work you slacker!
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by eoinbouzouki
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Sorry Eoin I'm only taking a break ,Is there any chance I could take another break and go for a few pints I'll bring the notes with me.
# Posted on June 1st 2007 by Saint
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Been away all week at Trade Union Conference and return to find this. As an historian I could discuss all day, but let us all get real and modern.
"America's bitches".
That should do, and everyone will know what countries are being referred to.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Western Anglophone Nations - Knowing Erse's Rarely Spoken ... ?
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Bren
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Outer Lancashire?
# Posted on June 4th 2007 by Alancorsini
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
In his introduction to The Isles: A History, Norman Davies writes:
Many years later, having written Europe: a history, I was invited to give a lecture at University College, Dublin. After the presentation, someone in the audience asked about my current project. I started to reply that I was thinking of writing a history of 'the British—'. I then realized that in Dublin, of all places, one cannot fairly talk of 'the British Isles'. The Isles ceased to be British precisely fifty years ago when the Republic of Ireland left the Commonwealth, though few people in the British residue have yet cared to notice. Various clumsy alternatives were discussed, such as 'the British and Irish Isles', 'Europe's Offshore Islands', and the 'Anglo-Celtic Archipelago'. In the end, it was decided that the only decent name for the forthcoming book was 'A History of These Islands'. And such was one of several working titles until, after much trial and error, I eventually arrived The Isles: A History.
So, on Davies' authority, I propose we should safely use the term:
The Isles.
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
Hmmmmm? ~ you would take a soft alternative that cannot cause controversy or ruffle any feathers... You, of all people, "The Isles", "These Isles", over here, in the East Atlantic, no, up a bit further, no further, you're almost there. Don't be daft, that's the Azores. Come in closer to shore, NO!, not that way, that's Newfoundland. That's better, no, you've overshot the mark, that's the Faroes, come on, don't give up now, down a little ~ aw jeez, don't give up now... What, you know a session in the Shetlands, well, sounds good to me, I've always loved the music from those 'Isles'...
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
OK then. Here's some real feather ruffling, yet probably ethnically or at least politically more accurate than anything else suggested. Considering the amount of territory held by the Vikings and their heirs the Normans, in both Great Britain and Ireland, and for the length of time they held sway, surely we should refer to these islands as the Scandinavian Isles?
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Who can come up with a better name for the Br***sh Isles?
I've used 'The Isles' as a name ever since I read that book. The Norman Davis tome is excellent, although I got bored around the Hanoverians.
I think it was his book that proposed the real problem for the Isles was the fact it has ruled from the south-east of England - and area which has a vastly disproportionate influence for its size on all the Isles inhabitants outside of the English home counties - a fact that remains all too true to this day.
Another book which has an alternative history of the Isles is The Sea Kingdoms by Alistair Moffatt, which argues the real history of the Islands has been dominated by the Anglo-Saxon version of our history, and proposes an alternative version based on the seafaring nations around the western coast of Wales, Scotland, Cornwall and England and Ireland. Highly recommended.
# Posted on June 16th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack