Seriously is anyone else totally offended by this. Maybe my knowledge of history is a bit rusty but I don’t think Éire is part of Britain.
I cant believe the audacity of these people at giftofmusic.com. They produce an album called “The Folk Music of IRELAND” and describe it on the back of the CD as follows….
’This album and its companion volumes present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition..’
Since bloody when has IRISH TRADITIONAL MUSIC come from ‘the british folk tradition??????
I’m going to send these guys a strong worded letter as soon as I calm down enough to clearly address my opinion.
Flaming gobshites
Needless to say I didn't buy that CD.
Well, it could be Irish music played by British people.
It is fair to say, I think, that there is a tradition of British people playing Irish traditional music. But I can't see what you're talking about on the net; giftofmusic.com looks like a Christian music love-in with no ITM content to me.
Calm down everybody. It's not something to get all that excited about.
Don't confuse politics with geography.
Eire as a political entity is not (now) a part of the political entity of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, regardless of what may or may not have been the case at any time in the past.
It is however located in the British Isles.
(compare with Canada: it is not a part of the United States of America, but is within the continent of America. It is a country in america regardless of any political affiliation it may or may not have with any other country).
Just type Folk Music of Ireland in the search box and youll be taken to this atrocity.
Anyway, its bears no relevance at all where the musicians come from. The MUSIC comes from Ireland.
I often play kajun music and scottish songs and tunes but I would never claim them to be from the irish folk tradition just because I play them and I'm irish.
Its all about respect. And there is a SERIOUS lack of it sometimes.
I respect your opinion show.. but read it again. It clearly says "music from the British folk tradition". If it was geographical shouldn't it read "music from the folk tradtion of the british isles" ??
Either somone in the giftofmusic company is an arrogant prick or has constructed thier sentence incorrectly. Either way, they should have been more carefull.
Ireland is not a part of the 'British Isles' as far as I, and many people, are concerned. Its an outdated, empire-centric term that is simply no longer correct politically, geographically, culturally or otherwise... people will continue to use as they choose though I'm sure.
I think you're a wind up merchant: I still can't see what the hell you're dribbling about. Anyway, they do stock some rather splendid music for gardeners that should calm you down:
1 The banks of the Bann
2 The rakes of Kildare/The Connaught man's rambles
3 The lark in the clear air
4 Sibeag simor
5 The Galway shawl
6 Out on the ocean
7 Blackwaterside
8 Tripping upstairs/Lannigan's ball/The Blarney pilgrim
9 The doffin mistress
10 I'll tell me Ma
11 The Irish girl
12 The minstrel boy
13 The blackthorn tree
14 Kesh Jig/Foxhunter's Jig/St Anne's Reel
15 Paddy's green shamrock shore
16 Connaught Mary and James O'Donnell/Down at the wakehouse
17 Wild rover
18 Irish medley including Barney Brallaghan/Irish merry making
19 She moved through the fair
20 Bonaparte's March
21 Curragh of Kildare
22 The Irish washerwoman/Shandon bells/Maggie Brown
This album and its companion volumes (Folk Music of England CCLCDG1016, Folk Music of Scotland CCLCDG1018, Folk Music of Wales CCLCDG1019) present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition. These recordings have the air of spontaneous, impromptu performance, a coming together to make music which is one of the hallmarks of the folk music scene. It is as if the recording engineers were allowed to eavesdrop on the music making - and captured frozen improvisations. The variety of sound on these albums is remarkable and the number of instruments and voices involved produces some remarkable programmes. But don't be fooled by the apparent ease - these musicians work hard, rehearsing and arranging behind the scenes (or discreetly working and honing their style during a jam session in a quiet town or country pub). The result is carefully crafted music which honours and past but which, like all living things, moves on and develops. Next time they play and sing the results will be different. The old folk melodies of the British Isles are honoured and respected, are treated as raw material for high quality music making.
Folk Music from Ireland presents famous tunes (track 1) alongside some which are less well-known outside the folk tradition. The river Bann, the counties of Kildare and Galway and many other places all inspired music making and songs at one time or another throughout the history of this musical land. Jigs, reels and other dances mix with songs about nature, folk legends and characters from the past.
Performers
Ian Giles
Ian Page
Sharon Lindo
Matthew Spring
The Amber Quartet
Ian Giles voice & bodrhan
Paul Sartin fiddle
John Spiers melodeon
Benji Kirkpatrick bouzouki & guitar
Dr Faustus
Paul Sartin fiddle
Tim van Eyken accordeon
Robert Harbron concertina
Benji Kirkpatrick bouzouki
Dragonsfire
Jon Banks guitar
Ben Grove mandolin
Hilary Perona-Wright boddrhan
Nigel Perona-Wright flute
All arrangements by courtesy of the performers.
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Yeah,
Surely a imperialist Brit mindset at work there, but, hey, its not easy being the home of Morris Dance.
What are you going on about Éire being the homestead of ITM.
We play it up here in the 6 counties you know, some might say a damn site better than the 'Free Staters' in Éire. Who left us high and dry in the 20's.
ITM derives from the island of Ireland and its diaspora in North America or where ever it is played.
I don't give a damn if people call this archipelago we live amongst the British Isles as the name derives from Roman times and refers to islands surround a larger (great) island called Britain. Take the higher ground and bite your lip.
I do however take exception to being refered to as British. Even some unionist friends of mine take exception to being called British as they say they are members of the UK ( The Uk of GB and NI as it says on a British passport)
I think the musicians on this series are English kids - John Spiers features on all the ones I've looked up, his musical partner (thingummy) Boden on one of them; other names ring the odd bell; none seems obviously Irish. So the issuers can get off on a technicality in calling the musicians British - they are.
Damn, I'd better draw the curtains and turn off the lights. Does this mean that now that I'm living here in 'England' that everything I play is now 'British'. I blame it on that lot of reprobates down in London and the surrounding swamp that claim to be playing Irish, I mean, their Londoners now, wherever they sperm first set to the egg... The probably have their own secret button suits, or long for one, and practice cockney rhyming slang on the side...
You know, I have this 'vague' recollection that the terms Brit and Britain and all related forms is Celtish anyway... But that's another can of worms ain't it?
'The Celts' is a modern myth, but, just maybe, (imagining that 'The Celts' were some coherent race for a moment) they were a tribe of terrible morris dancers who played crap tunes on clapped out accordeons... I mean its not impossible, although we generally prefer to imagine them completely differently.
Laitch, You dont know me so thats fair enough to say, but I would never send a poison letter to anyone. I would express my concern but as i said above, its all about respect and I would never write an abusive letter.
What about those DNA tests? I'm game. I once was told the closest thing to 'Celt' were the folks living in and around Austria, and the Bavarians, how was it they were described, was it Aristotle or Plato, can't remember, I haven't chatted with those lads in a long time. Hey, didn't the button accordion have its birth there? Maybe that's the real reason the Greeks feared them, eh?
I see nothing at all wrong with the detailed album description as posted by Harry:
"This album and its companion volumes (Folk Music of England CCLCDG1016, Folk Music of Scotland CCLCDG1018, Folk Music of Wales CCLCDG1019) present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition."
- the point is that the description is describing the series of albums, and is copied into each album. Where they have screwed up 'royally' is applying the same philosophy to the summary descriptions in the catalog.
" This album and its companion volumes present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition. "
"When Eddy Irvine was winning he was reffered to as the British racing car driver but as soon as he lost a race he became Irish again.."
Aussies do exactly the same with new zealanders. As soon as someone from new zealand become famous/successful enough, they become australian in the eyes of our media. Russel Crowe is a good example (although he did live in aus from a young age, so maybe not such a good example...)
Does anyone remember the time the British government said sorry for the terrible crimes they committed in Ireland and the time for the time thatcher left hunger strikers die.
Thats right they never did.
So don't ever think that type of brit will have a problem with the above.
Before the Romans came across the channel from Gaul (now called France) these islands, (of which modern day Eire and England and Wales and Scotland are a part,) were known variously as the Islands of Britain, or the British Isles. They were inhabited at the time by the Britons, or British. "England" didn't come into existence until nearly a thousand years later.
I've no problems with ancient history: I'm thinking recent history. I don't want to be associated with the crimes of British Empire, British crimes in and against Ireland, or their crimes against the many, many thousands of dead in, say, Iraq.
A couple of thousand years ago I mightn't have been so concerned, but I can't be sure of that.
A thousand years ago the inhabitants of Dublin were in the habit of sailing to Wales and capturing people for slaves.
As a Welshman I feel pretty p*ssed off that we've never had an apology from the Irish for that.
Then the English invaded and stole all our land.
We never got an apology for that either.
My people have suffered from the crimes of theIrish AND English for twice as long as the Irish have suffered from England.
(Of course - it's possible that the best answer to all of this should have been made in the second post - along the lines of "Calm down SS, you are over-reacting")
Yes you are over reacting!
Blimey!
Some of you lot get very upset about all this Irish/ British/ English/ Scottish stuff don’t you!
It seems instead of getting on and playing a living evolving music such as “ITM” you are all still living in the historical past, seiging the Post Office in Dublin, fighting the Battle of the Boyne, worrying about the potato famine!
This is the 21st Century and things have moved on.
Get used to it!
And anyway “Eire” is part of the British Isles and so so-called “Irish” music is part of the genre “British Music”. This aspect was discussed to death a few weeks ago.
Here in London (not England you understand but certainly in the British Isles) all that matters is developing the so-called “Irish” music (and its other North European brothers and sisters) where ever it may be going…
I beg to differ, but the term 'British Isles' simply does not have the currency here that it does where you are, not to say that it does not have SOME currency, some Irish people are happy to use it, but many don't for obvious reasons. Its a question of a thing called 'choice'.
Now, letting people chose how they portray themselves in the world and in their own place, that's actually being grown up.
That’s a fair point showaddydadito, but there’s a Huge difference between modern English/ Irish history and a Celtic tribe in Ireland travelling to a Celtic tribe in Wales and kidnapping someone. Especially when this was done between the same people. I.e. the Diese tribe who split and settled in Waterford and the north west of Wales.
At any rate… Sorry.
And chad, are you serious?? It one thing for someone to not actively help a famine impoverished country
But its something else entirely to take over said country, export all grain, meat and dairy and sit back watching the people starve to death and then top it all off by writing something in “the times” paper in September 1846 stating that “the famine is a blessing on England and the world to rid us of the scourge of the Irishman” You might find that hard to believe but if you want proof I’ll let you know what book I got that from.
Anyway, just to be clear, I'm not holding a grudge to anyone. These are just things I know.
wait I do hold a grudge against someone. The fecker who run over my cat when I was 10. Still dont like him
I always totally fail to understand why people never mention the crimes of Imperialist French, Dutch, Spanish, Ottoman & German (ie Prussian) governments. Face it - all imperialist governments were a particularly unpleasent force when it came to foreign policies towards states outside of their empire.
Of course, the description of the CD is ambiguous. The musicians making the music are more usually associated with the music of England (if you aren't familiar with the names that's your own look-out) - and the pieces listed are nomially Irish. But it's up to you if you want to politely inform the record company that the description isn't entirely reasonable.
As I'm largely uninvolved with the political history of Ireland in the past 90 years I'll leave that up to other people to argue about - but I always disagree when people think that it's more important to use music as a crutch to a cultural identity which is being used as a crutch to some political ideal than it is to play it.
The person who wrote that in the Times was responsible for their opinion and actions. The people who did what they could to relieve the famine were responsible for their actions.
I'm responsible for what I do, not for what a government does, or what people long dead did.
"I always totally fail to understand why people never mention the crimes of Imperialist French, Dutch, Spanish, Ottoman & German (ie Prussian) governments."
But neither do the actions of the British Imperial governments have a relevance to the topic. The discussion is about the incorrect labeling of a CD in line to the current political boundaries and people's uncertainty as to whether this is a cause for offence, allowing for the fact that they wish to create a firm cultual boundary.
"But neither do the actions of the British Imperial governments have a relevance to the topic. The discussion is about the incorrect labeling of a CD in line to the current political boundaries and people's uncertainty as to whether this is a cause for offence, allowing for the fact that they wish to create a firm cultual boundary."
I made it relevant by stating that I don't want to be associated particularly with British Imperialism and actions in general through use of the term 'British' to describe my home.
If it doesn't seem relevant to you then, there you go.
I don't know why the British sent armies and navies to conquer the world when a few careless phrases on the back of a bargain bin CD could've done the job for them
Benny Hill was a better ambassador... if you're male... if you're male and like naked women... if you're male and like naked women with no sense of humour....
If you're from Belfast (as your bio states), at the moment and in accordance with the current geo-political definitions, it would appear you don't have an awful lot of choice in the matter.
However, given you may have a political or religous inclination towards disagreement with the current distinction and as such harbour a desire to change it, I take your point (although I neither agree nor disagree with it). And apologise if you've taken offence at any of my remarks - I'm all for sensible political discussion. But not here - nor with me!!
Being from Belfast I'm entitled to hold an Irish (Eire) passport (which I do). I am a citizen of Ireland who comes from Belfast.
I have also held a British passport in the past that stated my nationality as "Irish". My inclinations on the matter (as stated above) are much more to do with ethics than politics or religion.
Anyone born in the territory of what is now the Republic of Ireland on or before the 31 December 2004 was automatically an Irish citizen unless one of his or her parents was entitled to diplomatic immunity at the time of the child's birth.
The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956 applied an entitlement to citizenship by birth to anyone born in Northern Ireland either before or after the coming into force of that Act. Anyone born in Northern Ireland on or before the 31 December 2004 is entitled to be an Irish citizen if they choose to be.
The virtually undiluted application of Jus soli (the right to citizenship of the country of birth) in the Republic, was brought to an end by the Irish Citizenship and Nationality Act 2004 which came into force on 1st January 2005. A person born on the island of Ireland on or after that date is not automatically an Irish citizen unless he or she is not entitled to the citizenship of any other country or is entitled to be a Irish citizen if at least one of that person's parents is either:
* an Irish citizen (or someone entitled to be an Irish citizen),
* a British citizen,
* a resident of the island of Ireland who is entitled to reside in either the Republic or in Northern Ireland without any time limit on that residence, and/or
* a legal resident in Ireland for three out of the 4 years preceding the child's birth (However time spent as a student or as an asylum seeker does not count for this purpose).
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Jus soli (Latin for "right of the soil" or, somewhat figuratively, "right of the territory"), or birthright citizenship, is a right by which nationality or citizenship can be recognised to any individual born in the territory of the related state.
I second iwerzon's concern that Harry B hasn't heard Tim Van Eyken's playing. Seriously Harry, give him a listen. He's a great musician, despite being English
Harry, I have to say that I think almost every post of yours on this thread is completely worthless and pointless - they're all far too intelligent and sensible for this sort of discussion.
St. Patrick was a Briton, and an example of the Irish 'kidnapping' the Welsh as that is how he ended up in Ireland. There is debate as to whether he came from Wales or nearer Dumbarton (Strathclyde) but he was definately a Briton.
So really I don't think Showaddy has cause to complain. I don't think there was much real kidnapping of the Welsh going on. It was more a case that the Irish were in Wales for their holidays (perhaps checking out the Brecon Beacons or checking out the Ffestiniog Railway. Perhaps they were collecting their children from their school weekend away at the Menai Centre. Either way, they were in Wales and these Welsh people (with the snazzy dress sense, you know the type - just like this http://www.cwmbran.info/welsh-folk.jpg) came up to them and pleaded with them for RESCUE from their Welsh homes and their lack of culture and ponsily named Cheese on Toast. They were then taken across the sea, cared for deeply and one of them was even made the National Patron Saint and given a job in a lovely new Reptile House (which he abused cruelly!)
The Welsh now twist this history to their own evil ends in a plot that will, if unchecked end up with Rhodri Morgan as leader of the Free World! Now I ask you all, do you really want that?
A friend of mine's grandad had a bit of a disappointment last year when he applied for a passport. Although he was born in the Republic, it was during the occupation and before partition so he was "officially" (at least) a British citizen.
"This aspect was discussed to death a few weeks ago."
Is that as far back as you go? This keeps coming back up like a bad curry or doner kebab. It goes back into the antiquity of ~ this site and beyond. The corpse of it will keep rising and attempts will me made to revive it.
Besides, ever since we all gave in and let McDonalds and KFC on our shores and in our stomachs, and Coke and Pepsi and Doctor Pepper ~
"These Islands" is the term currently used in northern politcal speech... "Britain and Ireland" seems sensible, the name of both major islands.
Or we could go to Rome and ask them to call us something else if we deem that they have some right to depositing titles on us... we could ask the pope, eh? Holy Roman Empire and all that.
I read somewhere that Saint Patrick was a young Roman noble's son who was kidnapped from his family's home in England to Ireland, a representative of yet another imperialist power that oppressed the proletariat masses of the far-distant past.......
I heard that he was a lesbian, dope smoking, priest who had loads of kids and drank and cursed and gave out about the pope... sorry, that's Sinead O'Connor.
I called them "The Diddly Isles" in a previous post.
Seriously, the Irish will badly need St. Patrick. In these times of prosperity and unprecedented exoticism, it won't be long before multitudes of teenagers start keeping tropical snakes in their bedrooms and flushing them down the loo when they've got too big and expensive to feed. Huge pythons and boa-constrictors get cornered in bathrooms and sewers, etc., in England every so often as a result of this.
“England” didn’t exist in the 4th century A.D. Most of the country then was under Roman rule. Towards the end of the 4th century young Magonus Sucatus Patricius (a good Roman name!), who later became St Patrick, was kidnapped by pirates from his home Somerset village of Banwell near the Bristol Channel coast. Banwell then was probably known as Bannavem Taberniae, which would have been the Roman form of the name of that Celtic village. Some 20 years later the Roman occupation started to fall apart and the “Dark Ages” ensued. They are known as the “Dark Ages” mainly because there are few documentary records extant from the period
It's impressive to see this much enthusiasm. I just checked in after a long weekend.
British arrogance for lack of a more diplomatic comment.
We had a situation that generated similar comments (though not maybe the same emotion....) when our Fearless Leader in the White House (who spent his military service protecting the skies over Iowa though no one can prove he showed up) entertained Britain's Queen.
There were alot of observations about how the administration admired British Royalty and seemed to act as though we still had some mystic connection to the Royal Family.
My comment was that the Brits seem to forget who threw King George's ar'se out here in 1776. And there is the regular claim that our Star Spangled Banner originated as a British Drinking Song.
Living with those of Irish heritage and expats all of my life in Chicago, I certainly would never be fool enough to dignifiy any comment attributing ITM to the Brits. My freinds are very clear about ITM being important because it symbolizes the Irish surviving despite the British......not because of them.
lazyhound - you can wrap it up in all the pseudo-history you like but there is no proof whatsoever that St Patrick came from Somerset! In truth his origin could be anywhere along the Irish pirate routes, more than likely somewhere in Wales. I think they would have been hard pushed to get that far up the Bristol Channel even if they had been inclined to do this.
It is far more likely, as I said above, that it was a mercy mission, rescuing the young Patrick from the boredom and bad fashion of his dull village existence. He had heard about the excitement of the Temple Bar and begged to be taken away.
The brits/ Welsh/ Bretons/ Atlantians/ Egyptians/ Martians are welcome to St. Pat and his Roman ringmasters; give me snakes to deal with any day... a snake can be taken pretty much at face value, no double standards, honest sort of a beast.
"Brits". Ugh. Can't abide that word. The English don't mind it, but try using it on a Scotsman and see the withering glare you'll receive.
What's wrong with being specific? Irish people come from Ireland, Scots from Scotland, English from England, Derrymen from Derry (or Londonderry if you're in one of those Unionist crowds---must be careful to know your audience!)...
The tune of The Star Spangled Banner was a British drinking song called "To Anacreon In Heaven" Did you know that at the time of the Revolution the colonies were flying the Grand Union Flag which had the stripes but a small Union Jack in the upper left hand corner? The story of Betsy Ross is a myth.George Washaington had more pressing matters to attend to in 1776 than seeking out a dressmaker to run up a flag for him.Even when the revolution was well under way Washington and his officers continued the nightly tradition of toasting the mother country.Their arguement was with George The Third.There are many myths surrounding the Revolution.America declared independence on the 2nd of July 1776,not the third. John Adams wrote to his wife "The second day of July 1776 will be the most memorable Epocha in the history of America" The official singing didn't begin until 2 August and wasn't concluded until 1781 when Thomas McKeane of Delaware signed. The Liberty Bell is a myth too.The Declaration was not read out in Philidelphia until 8 July and there is no record of bells being wrung.The bell was there,but it wasnt called The Liberty Bell until 1847 when the strory was told in a book by George Lippard.He made it up.
Paul Revere didn't make it to Concord,he was arrested on the way.He was more French than American his real name was Paul Rivoire.George Washington was a bloody awful general and only prevailed with the help of the Frech,a fact which America seems to have forgotten.I could go on.
To Anacreon In Heaven.
To Anacreon in heaven where he sat in full glee,
A few sons of harmony sent a petition,
That he their inspirer and patron would be,
When this answer arrived from the jolly old Grecian:
Voice, fiddle aud flute, no longer be mute,
I'll lend you my name and inspire you to boot!
And besides I'll instruct you like me to entwine
The myrtle of Venus and Bacchus's vine.
The news through Olympus immediately flew,
When old Thunder pretended to give himself airs,
If these mortals are suffered their scheme to pursue,
The devil a goddess will stay above stairs,
Hark! already they cry, in transports of joy,
A fig for Parnassus, to Rowley's we'll fly,
And there my good fellows, we'll learn to entwine
The myrtle of Venus and Bacchus's vine.
The yellow-haired god, and his nine fusty maids,
To the hill of old Lud will incontinent flee,
Idalia will boast but of tenantless shades,
And the biforked hill a mere desert will be,
My thunder, no fear on't, will soon do its errand,
And, damn me I'll swinge the ringleaders, I warrant
I'll trim the young dogs, for thus daring to twine
The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine.
Apollo rose up and said, "Prythee ne'er quarrel,
Good king of the gods, with my votaries below
Your thunder is useless - then showing his laurel,
Cried, Sic evitabile fulmen, you know!
Then over each head my laurels I'll spread,
So my sons from your crackers no mischief shall dread
Whilst snug in their club-room, they jovially twine
The myrtle of Venus and Bacchus's vine.
Harry, all I'm sayin' is that you don't win many friends in Scotland by calling the people there Brits. And heaven help you if you mistake them for English!
It's not just the history aspect---it has to do with the non-dominant culture feeling threatened or alienated or whatever you want to call it. Americans don't mind being mistaken for Canadians, but Canadians get really annoyed when people think they're American, which apparently happens quite frequently. I'm told it's the same with Australia and New Zealand. So any time I meet someone I think might be Australian, I always guess that they're from New Zealand, so as not to offend.
Re. Scotland. Yes, there seems to be a taste for the SNP at the moment. I know many Scots who give out about 'the Brits'... and people think the situation in the north of Ireland is schitzophrenic!
No one debates that the Island is called Britain, at least no one with any sense. The debate is more over the "United Kingdom of Great" bit. Does this sound similar to yourselves?
It is interesting that the idea of a Great Britain has been held up as the goal by so many monarchs. This was Edward I's goal and in his dealings with the Pope over the Scottish Question he tried to paint himself as the successor to Arthur, "The King of All the Britons". James VI had the same idea when he became king of England in 1603 and united the crowns - they saw themselves as a successor of this great king.
The term British seems to have become increasingly divisive these days. Maybe we now need to consign it to history and settle for English, Scottish and Welsh depending where you live on the island that was Britain and Irish for the inhabitants on the island of Ireland. Seems like a simple and logical solution to me as it doesn't attempt to coerce anyone into being something they feel they aren't!
Actually, we didn't finish getting them out of the US until 1812 as I recall.
Since Our current King George is allegedly related to the Crown by family, I wish HRH would have taken him back with her and given him a room at one of her castles.
" This album and its companion volumes present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition. "
On all the alums..so whats the problem? Its correct
"ITM being important because it symbolizes the Irish surviving despite the British......not because of them".
Given the close and vernable relationship between in native musics of Ireland, Scotland & Northumberland how many Scots and Northumberland-ers take that viewpoint? I rather suspect that 150 years ago the people of rural Ireland had more pressing things to worry about than playing music to upset the English - and as such when they did play, did so because that was what they liked to do & how they lived their lives.
One of the interesting points about this CD (insofar overlooked) is: What does it sound like when a load of musicians from the English scene play Irish music? What would it have sounded like if they were Scots?
Years ago I learned to be politically correct and call myself "British" instead of "English". Then people changed their minds, and the Scots and Welsh *didn't* want to be inclusive, so now I either say I'm English (and proud of it, which doesn't mean I'm proud of everything that's been done in the name of England), or European.
But the real problem may be education, in that too many people don't know how to use apostrophes. So where "some of Britain's finest folk musicians" is ambiguous, it is gramatically simple. The ambiguity has, as we see, upset some people. If they were to have written the unambiguous "some of the British Isles' finest folk musicians", people would have got uneasy and confused and written things like "some of the British Isle's finest folk musicians". I suppose "some of the finest folk musicians of the British Isles" would have got round it, but we already know that the copywriters were careless, so perhaps we can't expect too much.
Given that part of the island of Ireland is still part of the UK of GB and NE, the only thing I can say to people who don't like the unambiguous and politically neutral phrase "British Isles" is - don't use it. If it's that bad it will go away.
I've never heard anyone in Scotland refer to "Brits" as if it didn't include Scots, but then I've only lived here 27 years so can't really be considered a local.
As soon as I hear someone here using phrases like "these islands" then my gut feeling is that it's coming from dogmatic NI political speak and the only thing to do is drop the subject and move quietly away from the bar unless you enjoy repetitive monologues. I'm not saying that people in Scotland don't use those phrases, but it always seems to be due to some NI connection. Perhaps the SNP will intorduce it into our daily doscourse now. I can hardly wait.
re: the original post - CD blurbs about any music are notoriously unreliable, and that goes tenfold for any type of traditional music. Apart from pointing out the error, I don't see any cause for outrage and anyway it was probably written by an Australian temp on a WHV with a raging hangover , a hostel tan and week-old underwear. Blame the Aussies, we don't give a flying feck anyway.
Yes, it should be pointed out that, when its used by people of a republican ilk in the north of Ireland (and by those sympathetic in Scotland), it generally means the British Army... which is the army of Britain, to which Scotland belongs... which is also a bit odd when you think about it... :-o
"These islands" is being used in an inclusive way in the north, so as not to offend or exclude, it has been used by unionist politicians for this reason. That's a good thing.
Eh? I've never heard of Scots calling other non-Scottish Britons "The Brits", and I am Scots.
Also, the "Great" bit of so called Great Britain is a historical term dating back to the middle ages and was originally intended to differentiate between the insular Britons on the island of Britain - "Great" Britain and the continental Britons who fled after the Saxon invasions across the sea to Armorica, or Brittany, or, believe it or not, "Little" Britain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Brittany
I see Conan gets a mention in that Wiki article!
Shawaddyadaito
Éire is not an Island but 26 counties of an island. Éire is a nation. 6 counties still are not part of what politically is called Éire but when we are then Éire will be an island.
It's interesting to note that the same musicians appear on all four CDs.
I'm familiar with the *normal* styles of Tim Van Eyken, Jon Boden and John Spiers, and I'd have said they're all playing in the English style, and would be suprised to hear them playing *Irish* or *Scottish*. I note that Tim Van E plays guitar on the Scottish CD, and doesn't appear at all on the Welsh one - presumably he didn't feel he knew enough about it to join in.
I think the real question is not what the sleeve notes say, but what the music sounds like. I'm tempted to buy the English and Irish ones just to see if they do sound different, and genuine to my ears.
If I were compiling a CD of Irish tunes, I wouldn't have chosen these artists.
I think it is possible for experienced musicians to vary their styles, but if the Irish CD had had players like Frankie Gavin, Sharon Shannon and Seamus Tansey I'd think it'd sound more genuinely Irish.
I think the audience these CDs are aimed at aren't going to care that much.
1.Don't confuse myths with fact . e.g . St. Patrick been taken from wales and all that ,should we say sorry to the snakes for kicking them out.
2.Ireland fought a war of Independence about 80 years ago to be called Irish and won it ,so there is no link politically or geographically with the UK.
3.Its time to get rid of the Union Jack because what does it represent.
"Shawaddyadaito
Éire is not an Island but 26 counties of an island. Éire is a nation. 6 counties still are not part of what politically is called Éire but when we are then Éire will be an island"
> I hope you have not got the champagne out just yet for that one!
Saint said:
2.Ireland fought a war of Independence about 80 years ago to be called Irish and won it ,so there is no link politically or geographically with the UK.
3.Its time to get rid of the Union Jack because what does it represent.
> Ireland almost won that war - as iwerzon so astutely pointed out (and indeed the real reason for much of this debate) you stopped just around the bend from the finishing line to be left with 26 Counties and a King (although you did manage to sort this last bit a little later on!)
> The "Union Jack" represents the British Navy. The "Union Flag" is the one that we all know and "love" - which takes pride of place on Buck House! - But let's not worry about technicalities.
Sorry - please don't send me any poison pen letters or vitriol - I passed a placement today and may be an over-exhuberant mood! No disrespect meant to anyone's history.
Well SS I gave up worrying about whether I was Irish, English, Welsh or British many years ago. The only thing I know for sure is that I'm a Scouser !
So you can pick up your pen and write your letter and I hope it helps allay your anger, but I think the only thing that will really soothe your savage breast is to pick up that fiddle and play!
"you stopped just around the bend from the finishing line to be left with 26 Counties and a King" who said I stopped Ireland won the war of independence(The day the brits said they were willing to talk) what happened after was a different sneaky story.
Look at what the st. Patricks flag stands for and its part of the union jack flag
" there is no link politically or geographically with the UK"
unless someone's moved Ireland in the night, the geographical links are the same as they were before independence
you never hear any brits say briton is part of ireland but it seems ok for some of ye to say that Ireland is part of the british isles a geographical dated term that should be left in the dark ages so we can all move on and personally I find it offencive .
In Britain the North Sea was called the German Sea before World war one. There's a road near us, now called Canadian Avenue, that used to be called Berlin Road up till 1914.
The powers that be in the UK can effect name changes when it suits them.
I was under the impression that "British Isles" was an outmoded term. If not now, it should be. It has no meaning nowadays. I'm surprised anyone would use it on here, other than as an ostentacious display of pedantry, for the sake of it.
As far as I can see the "British Isles" is a term that is still widely, commonly and frequently in use in a wide variety of spheres of discourse as a politically neutral, geographically meaningful term.
It's not as if it includes Ireland as a part of Britain; Ireland cannot possibly be considered part of Great Britain by anyone who knows what that term means, and the Republic is explicitly not part of the UK of GB and NE. No, "British Isles" refers to where this bunch of islands are. At least the term used to, and as a matter of observation still does. Maybe one day the usage will change, and maybe that will be a good thing, but it hasn't done yet.
Like I said before, people who don't like it can easily refrain from using it. They might even come up with an alternative - if it's a good one, it will catch on.
Yes, Scotland, Wales, England and latterly Ireland, in the Republic, where I was a blow-in down in the Rebel County. Sometimes I even got paid for playing Irish trad there in places like Baltimore, which, considering my limited skills (as you will know, that is no mere rhetorical pose), must say something about the state of ITM there. Come to think of it, Dick Miles played at one or two of the gigs I did in Baltimore!
If it were not the case that part of the island of Ireland is part of the UK of GB and NE it might be easier to draw a mental line down the middle of the Irish sea, narrow and wiggly as it is.
Because this idea that the "British Isles" is a problem term for a few people I have just looked it up in a few reference books. In every case you get the same result: it's a geographical term for a heterogenous group of quite a large number of islands, Great Britain obviously being the largest and Ireland the second largest, with varied historical links and boundaries of varying political significance; some of the boundaries are visible as bodies of water, and some, like the boundary between the UK of GB and NE, being across land.
It's a mishmash. If Scotland ever secedes from the Union, it will still be part, not just of the British Isles but of Great Britain, while the Isle of Wight is not part of Great Britain and presumably never will be!
So the British Isles is a shopping-bag of a term, including all the various islands that have one thing in common - they lie in a bunch off the coast of middle Europe.
"Well SS I gave up worrying about whether I was Irish, English, Welsh or British many years ago. The only thing I know for sure is that I'm a Scouser !"
I'll Repeat myself again the Problem I have is that there are still a number people use the term british isles just to upset and insult people. If I ever used a term that upset someone I would stop using it as soon as i realised it . So now knowing that the term british isles when referring to ireland can be insulting to some of us what type of individual would still want to use it.
I can do no better than repeat the words of an Irish Embassy spokesman in London quoted by The Times of London a few months ago: "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage." Amen to that
Is 'irony' the art of smoothing clothes? No, that would be 'ironry' I suppose.
The above applies generally, at all troughs.
Want another laugh, Ian Paisley Jnr. is 'gay whacking' at the moment, following in the steps of his daddy with his "Save Ulster from Sodomy" campaign from the 70s.
But if we go down that road Saint how are we going to refer to George Bush, the British Tory Party, Fine Gael, Daniel O'Donnell, tunes like Tamlin, etc, etc? We'll end up with a much diminished vocabulary!
ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Seriously is anyone else totally offended by this. Maybe my knowledge of history is a bit rusty but I don’t think Éire is part of Britain.
I cant believe the audacity of these people at giftofmusic.com. They produce an album called “The Folk Music of IRELAND” and describe it on the back of the CD as follows….
’This album and its companion volumes present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition..’
Since bloody when has IRISH TRADITIONAL MUSIC come from ‘the british folk tradition??????
I’m going to send these guys a strong worded letter as soon as I calm down enough to clearly address my opinion.
Flaming gobshites
Needless to say I didn't buy that CD.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Perhaps derived from the situation before 1921? Go on, write your letter !
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Thing is Henk, they didnt have cd's back then!
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I hate it when these pricks do that kind of thing. No you're not overreacting. It's blatant ignorance and arrogance.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Thanks Danny.I feel better knowing I'm loosing the plot for an appropriate reason.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Sorry Danny, but they also have a CD called "Folk Music of Scotland" with the same description.
Egotistical pricks.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Well, it could be Irish music played by British people.
It is fair to say, I think, that there is a tradition of British people playing Irish traditional music. But I can't see what you're talking about on the net; giftofmusic.com looks like a Christian music love-in with no ITM content to me.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
In other words, post a link to it.
Cheers,
H
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Calm down everybody. It's not something to get all that excited about.
Don't confuse politics with geography.
Eire as a political entity is not (now) a part of the political entity of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, regardless of what may or may not have been the case at any time in the past.
It is however located in the British Isles.
(compare with Canada: it is not a part of the United States of America, but is within the continent of America. It is a country in america regardless of any political affiliation it may or may not have with any other country).
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Just type Folk Music of Ireland in the search box and youll be taken to this atrocity.
Anyway, its bears no relevance at all where the musicians come from. The MUSIC comes from Ireland.
I often play kajun music and scottish songs and tunes but I would never claim them to be from the irish folk tradition just because I play them and I'm irish.
Its all about respect. And there is a SERIOUS lack of it sometimes.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
http://cgi.www.thegiftofmusic.com/cgi-bin/www.thegiftofmusic.com/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ethegiftofmusic%2ecom%2facatalog%2f&WD=music%20ireland%20folk&PN=Heritage_of_Music%2ehtml%23aCDG1017#aCDG1017
its one hell of a link
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I respect your opinion show.. but read it again. It clearly says "music from the British folk tradition". If it was geographical shouldn't it read "music from the folk tradtion of the british isles" ??
Either somone in the giftofmusic company is an arrogant prick or has constructed thier sentence incorrectly. Either way, they should have been more carefull.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Ireland is not a part of the 'British Isles' as far as I, and many people, are concerned. Its an outdated, empire-centric term that is simply no longer correct politically, geographically, culturally or otherwise... people will continue to use as they choose though I'm sure.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I think you're a wind up merchant: I still can't see what the hell you're dribbling about. Anyway, they do stock some rather splendid music for gardeners that should calm you down:
http://www.thegiftofmusic.com/acatalog/Music_for_Gardeners.html
The evil BASTARDS!
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Ah, this:
Folk Music of Ireland
Ref: CDG1017
CCL CDG1017
Folk Music of Ireland
1 The banks of the Bann
2 The rakes of Kildare/The Connaught man's rambles
3 The lark in the clear air
4 Sibeag simor
5 The Galway shawl
6 Out on the ocean
7 Blackwaterside
8 Tripping upstairs/Lannigan's ball/The Blarney pilgrim
9 The doffin mistress
10 I'll tell me Ma
11 The Irish girl
12 The minstrel boy
13 The blackthorn tree
14 Kesh Jig/Foxhunter's Jig/St Anne's Reel
15 Paddy's green shamrock shore
16 Connaught Mary and James O'Donnell/Down at the wakehouse
17 Wild rover
18 Irish medley including Barney Brallaghan/Irish merry making
19 She moved through the fair
20 Bonaparte's March
21 Curragh of Kildare
22 The Irish washerwoman/Shandon bells/Maggie Brown
This album and its companion volumes (Folk Music of England CCLCDG1016, Folk Music of Scotland CCLCDG1018, Folk Music of Wales CCLCDG1019) present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition. These recordings have the air of spontaneous, impromptu performance, a coming together to make music which is one of the hallmarks of the folk music scene. It is as if the recording engineers were allowed to eavesdrop on the music making - and captured frozen improvisations. The variety of sound on these albums is remarkable and the number of instruments and voices involved produces some remarkable programmes. But don't be fooled by the apparent ease - these musicians work hard, rehearsing and arranging behind the scenes (or discreetly working and honing their style during a jam session in a quiet town or country pub). The result is carefully crafted music which honours and past but which, like all living things, moves on and develops. Next time they play and sing the results will be different. The old folk melodies of the British Isles are honoured and respected, are treated as raw material for high quality music making.
Folk Music from Ireland presents famous tunes (track 1) alongside some which are less well-known outside the folk tradition. The river Bann, the counties of Kildare and Galway and many other places all inspired music making and songs at one time or another throughout the history of this musical land. Jigs, reels and other dances mix with songs about nature, folk legends and characters from the past.
Performers
Ian Giles
Ian Page
Sharon Lindo
Matthew Spring
The Amber Quartet
Ian Giles voice & bodrhan
Paul Sartin fiddle
John Spiers melodeon
Benji Kirkpatrick bouzouki & guitar
Dr Faustus
Paul Sartin fiddle
Tim van Eyken accordeon
Robert Harbron concertina
Benji Kirkpatrick bouzouki
Dragonsfire
Jon Banks guitar
Ben Grove mandolin
Hilary Perona-Wright boddrhan
Nigel Perona-Wright flute
All arrangements by courtesy of the performers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah,
Surely a imperialist Brit mindset at work there, but, hey, its not easy being the home of Morris Dance.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Who the hell are these people? 'Dr Fausus', 'Tim van Eyken', 'Dragonsfire'...
Have these people been kept as cultural slaves in a concentration camp somewhere in deepest, darkest Devon since the formation of the Irish state?
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
What are you going on about Éire being the homestead of ITM.
We play it up here in the 6 counties you know, some might say a damn site better than the 'Free Staters' in Éire. Who left us high and dry in the 20's.
ITM derives from the island of Ireland and its diaspora in North America or where ever it is played.
I don't give a damn if people call this archipelago we live amongst the British Isles as the name derives from Roman times and refers to islands surround a larger (great) island called Britain. Take the higher ground and bite your lip.
I do however take exception to being refered to as British. Even some unionist friends of mine take exception to being called British as they say they are members of the UK ( The Uk of GB and NI as it says on a British passport)
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by iwerzon
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
By the way Tim Van Eyken has a fine CD out, a great singer and box player. You should have a listen Harry.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by iwerzon
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Jaysus,
Don't post a link to it in case there's any other clangers, only so much excitement per day please.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I think the musicians on this series are English kids - John Spiers features on all the ones I've looked up, his musical partner (thingummy) Boden on one of them; other names ring the odd bell; none seems obviously Irish. So the issuers can get off on a technicality in calling the musicians British - they are.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by nicholas
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
iwerzon... was that comment directed at me?
I never said Eire was was the the homestead of ITM, I daid Eire is not part of britain, and its NOT.
I know damn well ye play it up there. I spend a lot of time 'up there'.
Relax
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Its just the English calling it British because they're just sore loosers because their celtic roots roots in music is lost.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Scrappy the Godo
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Damn, I'd better draw the curtains and turn off the lights. Does this mean that now that I'm living here in 'England' that everything I play is now 'British'. I blame it on that lot of reprobates down in London and the surrounding swamp that claim to be playing Irish, I mean, their Londoners now, wherever they sperm first set to the egg... The probably have their own secret button suits, or long for one, and practice cockney rhyming slang on the side...
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
You know, I have this 'vague' recollection that the terms Brit and Britain and all related forms is Celtish anyway... But that's another can of worms ain't it?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yeah they do the same thing in the English tabloids.
When Eddy Irvine was winning he was reffered to as the British racing car driver but as soon as he lost a race he became Irish again..
Gets my blood boiling.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
sessionsavage, you're overreacting if you send a poison email to gift of music.com because it's just a Christian music site.
Your beef shouldn't be with that little company but rather with a recording company called "The Gift of Music".
http://www.eurocosm.com/Application/Products/Audio-CD/Overview-GB.asp
It looks like that company may be a subsidiary of this one, the one that might cherish the fruit of your righteous indignation.
Eurocosm
http://www.eurocosm.com/Application/Corporate/contact1GB.asp
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by joesmith
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
'The Celts' is a modern myth, but, just maybe, (imagining that 'The Celts' were some coherent race for a moment) they were a tribe of terrible morris dancers who played crap tunes on clapped out accordeons... I mean its not impossible, although we generally prefer to imagine them completely differently.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Laitch, You dont know me so thats fair enough to say, but I would never send a poison letter to anyone. I would express my concern but as i said above, its all about respect and I would never write an abusive letter.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Having said that, I will get my point accross.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I suspected someone would jump at the bait...
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Now which tribe was it? Hmmmmmm?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
your a bad bastard Ceolachan
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"Fleadh Na Breataine"
http://www.thesession.org/events/display/337
Damn Comhaltas, confused lot that they are...
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Who loves yuh SS? :-X
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
What about those DNA tests? I'm game. I once was told the closest thing to 'Celt' were the folks living in and around Austria, and the Bavarians, how was it they were described, was it Aristotle or Plato, can't remember, I haven't chatted with those lads in a long time. Hey, didn't the button accordion have its birth there? Maybe that's the real reason the Greeks feared them, eh?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I see nothing at all wrong with the detailed album description as posted by Harry:
"This album and its companion volumes (Folk Music of England CCLCDG1016, Folk Music of Scotland CCLCDG1018, Folk Music of Wales CCLCDG1019) present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition."
- the point is that the description is describing the series of albums, and is copied into each album. Where they have screwed up 'royally' is applying the same philosophy to the summary descriptions in the catalog.
" This album and its companion volumes present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition. "
again copied onto each album in the series. Oops.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by NeilC
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Actually, I've read the summary again, and even that's ambiguous rather than outright wrong.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by NeilC
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I want to know what this "kajun" music is that session savage plays.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by dafydd
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
dafydd, my spelling was wrong its spelled cajun music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cajun_music
some of these tunes are class and definitly NOT ITM.
The old boots is a particularly good tune.
Check it out
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"When Eddy Irvine was winning he was reffered to as the British racing car driver but as soon as he lost a race he became Irish again.."
Aussies do exactly the same with new zealanders. As soon as someone from new zealand become famous/successful enough, they become australian in the eyes of our media. Russel Crowe is a good example (although he did live in aus from a young age, so maybe not such a good example...)
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by kjay_bc_box
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Does anyone remember the time the British government said sorry for the terrible crimes they committed in Ireland and the time for the time thatcher left hunger strikers die.
Thats right they never did.
So don't ever think that type of brit will have a problem with the above.
By the way the union jack is an irrelevant
Don't start me on the british isles crap
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Saint
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Before the Romans came across the channel from Gaul (now called France) these islands, (of which modern day Eire and England and Wales and Scotland are a part,) were known variously as the Islands of Britain, or the British Isles. They were inhabited at the time by the Britons, or British. "England" didn't come into existence until nearly a thousand years later.
Don't confuse geography with history either.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I've no problems with ancient history: I'm thinking recent history. I don't want to be associated with the crimes of British Empire, British crimes in and against Ireland, or their crimes against the many, many thousands of dead in, say, Iraq.
A couple of thousand years ago I mightn't have been so concerned, but I can't be sure of that.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
A thousand years ago the inhabitants of Dublin were in the habit of sailing to Wales and capturing people for slaves.
As a Welshman I feel pretty p*ssed off that we've never had an apology from the Irish for that.
Then the English invaded and stole all our land.
We never got an apology for that either.
My people have suffered from the crimes of theIrish AND English for twice as long as the Irish have suffered from England.
(Of course - it's possible that the best answer to all of this should have been made in the second post - along the lines of "Calm down SS, you are over-reacting")
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"As a Welshman I feel pretty p*ssed off that we've never had an apology from the Irish for that."
I thought the Irish were meant to harbor grudges the longest? Just as well we aren't calling Wales part of the 'Irish Isles' then isn't it?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Not to mention the english suffering from the crimes of the celts, angles, saxons, jutes, normans, english.....
When folk start going on about the potato famine it's always interesting to ask what they do personally about famine relief in our time.....
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yeah, great thinking there. Now, back to reading The Sun you go.
regards,
Harry
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yes you are over reacting!
Blimey!
Some of you lot get very upset about all this Irish/ British/ English/ Scottish stuff don’t you!
It seems instead of getting on and playing a living evolving music such as “ITM” you are all still living in the historical past, seiging the Post Office in Dublin, fighting the Battle of the Boyne, worrying about the potato famine!
This is the 21st Century and things have moved on.
Get used to it!
And anyway “Eire” is part of the British Isles and so so-called “Irish” music is part of the genre “British Music”. This aspect was discussed to death a few weeks ago.
Here in London (not England you understand but certainly in the British Isles) all that matters is developing the so-called “Irish” music (and its other North European brothers and sisters) where ever it may be going…
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by yhaalhouse
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
And I forgot the Romans, and the Dacians, Thracians and Iberians they brought with them....
(Exit muttering darkly...)
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
yhaalhouse,
I beg to differ, but the term 'British Isles' simply does not have the currency here that it does where you are, not to say that it does not have SOME currency, some Irish people are happy to use it, but many don't for obvious reasons. Its a question of a thing called 'choice'.
Now, letting people chose how they portray themselves in the world and in their own place, that's actually being grown up.
Regards,
H
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
That’s a fair point showaddydadito, but there’s a Huge difference between modern English/ Irish history and a Celtic tribe in Ireland travelling to a Celtic tribe in Wales and kidnapping someone. Especially when this was done between the same people. I.e. the Diese tribe who split and settled in Waterford and the north west of Wales.
At any rate… Sorry.
And chad, are you serious?? It one thing for someone to not actively help a famine impoverished country
But its something else entirely to take over said country, export all grain, meat and dairy and sit back watching the people starve to death and then top it all off by writing something in “the times” paper in September 1846 stating that “the famine is a blessing on England and the world to rid us of the scourge of the Irishman” You might find that hard to believe but if you want proof I’ll let you know what book I got that from.
Anyway, just to be clear, I'm not holding a grudge to anyone. These are just things I know.
wait I do hold a grudge against someone. The fecker who run over my cat when I was 10. Still dont like him
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I always totally fail to understand why people never mention the crimes of Imperialist French, Dutch, Spanish, Ottoman & German (ie Prussian) governments. Face it - all imperialist governments were a particularly unpleasent force when it came to foreign policies towards states outside of their empire.
Of course, the description of the CD is ambiguous. The musicians making the music are more usually associated with the music of England (if you aren't familiar with the names that's your own look-out) - and the pieces listed are nomially Irish. But it's up to you if you want to politely inform the record company that the description isn't entirely reasonable.
As I'm largely uninvolved with the political history of Ireland in the past 90 years I'll leave that up to other people to argue about - but I always disagree when people think that it's more important to use music as a crutch to a cultural identity which is being used as a crutch to some political ideal than it is to play it.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Andy V
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The person who wrote that in the Times was responsible for their opinion and actions. The people who did what they could to relieve the famine were responsible for their actions.
I'm responsible for what I do, not for what a government does, or what people long dead did.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by TomB-R
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"At any rate… Sorry."
At last - Ireland apologises.
oh there'll be some singing in the valleys tonight.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"I always totally fail to understand why people never mention the crimes of Imperialist French, Dutch, Spanish, Ottoman & German (ie Prussian) governments."
Because its nothing to do with the discussion?
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
oh
BTW
this has been huge fun.
we must do it again sometime.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
But neither do the actions of the British Imperial governments have a relevance to the topic. The discussion is about the incorrect labeling of a CD in line to the current political boundaries and people's uncertainty as to whether this is a cause for offence, allowing for the fact that they wish to create a firm cultual boundary.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Andy V
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yeah, a good argument has been well over due.
Lets all get together and apologise for everythin and have a good ould hug and a few pints
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"But neither do the actions of the British Imperial governments have a relevance to the topic. The discussion is about the incorrect labeling of a CD in line to the current political boundaries and people's uncertainty as to whether this is a cause for offence, allowing for the fact that they wish to create a firm cultual boundary."
I made it relevant by stating that I don't want to be associated particularly with British Imperialism and actions in general through use of the term 'British' to describe my home.
If it doesn't seem relevant to you then, there you go.
regards
H
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I don't know why the British sent armies and navies to conquer the world when a few careless phrases on the back of a bargain bin CD could've done the job for them
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Bren
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Benny Hill was a better ambassador... if you're male... if you're male and like naked women... if you're male and like naked women with no sense of humour....
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
If you're from Belfast (as your bio states), at the moment and in accordance with the current geo-political definitions, it would appear you don't have an awful lot of choice in the matter.
However, given you may have a political or religous inclination towards disagreement with the current distinction and as such harbour a desire to change it, I take your point (although I neither agree nor disagree with it). And apologise if you've taken offence at any of my remarks - I'm all for sensible political discussion. But not here - nor with me!!
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Andy V
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Being from Belfast I'm entitled to hold an Irish (Eire) passport (which I do). I am a citizen of Ireland who comes from Belfast.
I have also held a British passport in the past that stated my nationality as "Irish". My inclinations on the matter (as stated above) are much more to do with ethics than politics or religion.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_citizenship
Anyone born in the territory of what is now the Republic of Ireland on or before the 31 December 2004 was automatically an Irish citizen unless one of his or her parents was entitled to diplomatic immunity at the time of the child's birth.
The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956 applied an entitlement to citizenship by birth to anyone born in Northern Ireland either before or after the coming into force of that Act. Anyone born in Northern Ireland on or before the 31 December 2004 is entitled to be an Irish citizen if they choose to be.
The virtually undiluted application of Jus soli (the right to citizenship of the country of birth) in the Republic, was brought to an end by the Irish Citizenship and Nationality Act 2004 which came into force on 1st January 2005. A person born on the island of Ireland on or after that date is not automatically an Irish citizen unless he or she is not entitled to the citizenship of any other country or is entitled to be a Irish citizen if at least one of that person's parents is either:
* an Irish citizen (or someone entitled to be an Irish citizen),
* a British citizen,
* a resident of the island of Ireland who is entitled to reside in either the Republic or in Northern Ireland without any time limit on that residence, and/or
* a legal resident in Ireland for three out of the 4 years preceding the child's birth (However time spent as a student or as an asylum seeker does not count for this purpose).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jus soli (Latin for "right of the soil" or, somewhat figuratively, "right of the territory"), or birthright citizenship, is a right by which nationality or citizenship can be recognised to any individual born in the territory of the related state.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I'm still writing my letter though .....
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
At least it won't have froth on it now, you British Isle bast....
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Ha ha ha LOL. F*ck you harry b
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I second iwerzon's concern that Harry B hasn't heard Tim Van Eyken's playing. Seriously Harry, give him a listen. He's a great musician, despite being English
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Dow
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Sorry, I only listen to British box players.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Harry, I have to say that I think almost every post of yours on this thread is completely worthless and pointless - they're all far too intelligent and sensible for this sort of discussion.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I like pencils
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Aren't cows big when you get close up?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Me? Sensible? Christ, this thread is going down hill quickly!
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
St. Patrick was a Briton, and an example of the Irish 'kidnapping' the Welsh as that is how he ended up in Ireland. There is debate as to whether he came from Wales or nearer Dumbarton (Strathclyde) but he was definately a Briton.
So really I don't think Showaddy has cause to complain. I don't think there was much real kidnapping of the Welsh going on. It was more a case that the Irish were in Wales for their holidays (perhaps checking out the Brecon Beacons or checking out the Ffestiniog Railway. Perhaps they were collecting their children from their school weekend away at the Menai Centre. Either way, they were in Wales and these Welsh people (with the snazzy dress sense, you know the type - just like this http://www.cwmbran.info/welsh-folk.jpg) came up to them and pleaded with them for RESCUE from their Welsh homes and their lack of culture and ponsily named Cheese on Toast. They were then taken across the sea, cared for deeply and one of them was even made the National Patron Saint and given a job in a lovely new Reptile House (which he abused cruelly!)
The Welsh now twist this history to their own evil ends in a plot that will, if unchecked end up with Rhodri Morgan as leader of the Free World! Now I ask you all, do you really want that?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Pencils? Crows? Shut up, Paddy, you're not in Ballygobackwards now!
Conan the Contrarian!
Cheers,
H
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Mmmm foxy laaaaaady!
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
How would the squoire be loikin' his tae?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Benji Kirkpatrick's a fine bouzouki player too.
What about coming up another name for the British Isles then so we can all stop arguing and evryone feels happy and at home?
I vote for 'Scruttock'.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The Scottish Isles!
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
A friend of mine's grandad had a bit of a disappointment last year when he applied for a passport. Although he was born in the Republic, it was during the occupation and before partition so he was "officially" (at least) a British citizen.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Thinking about it, I would like to change my vote to 'The Isles of the Whelk' because I love whelks.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"This aspect was discussed to death a few weeks ago."
Is that as far back as you go? This keeps coming back up like a bad curry or doner kebab. It goes back into the antiquity of ~ this site and beyond. The corpse of it will keep rising and attempts will me made to revive it.
Besides, ever since we all gave in and let McDonalds and KFC on our shores and in our stomachs, and Coke and Pepsi and Doctor Pepper ~
WE'RE ALL AMERICANS NOW!!!
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"These Islands" is the term currently used in northern politcal speech... "Britain and Ireland" seems sensible, the name of both major islands.
Or we could go to Rome and ask them to call us something else if we deem that they have some right to depositing titles on us... we could ask the pope, eh? Holy Roman Empire and all that.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Oooh! that made me shudder...
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Does it always have to come down to the Pope?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yeah, give him a kick there, he's nodded off again.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I read somewhere that Saint Patrick was a young Roman noble's son who was kidnapped from his family's home in England to Ireland, a representative of yet another imperialist power that oppressed the proletariat masses of the far-distant past.......
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by AlBrown
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I heard that he was a lesbian, dope smoking, priest who had loads of kids and drank and cursed and gave out about the pope... sorry, that's Sinead O'Connor.
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I heard he loved whelks.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The shellfish bastard.
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I called them "The Diddly Isles" in a previous post.
Seriously, the Irish will badly need St. Patrick. In these times of prosperity and unprecedented exoticism, it won't be long before multitudes of teenagers start keeping tropical snakes in their bedrooms and flushing them down the loo when they've got too big and expensive to feed. Huge pythons and boa-constrictors get cornered in bathrooms and sewers, etc., in England every so often as a result of this.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by nicholas
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
“England” didn’t exist in the 4th century A.D. Most of the country then was under Roman rule. Towards the end of the 4th century young Magonus Sucatus Patricius (a good Roman name!), who later became St Patrick, was kidnapped by pirates from his home Somerset village of Banwell near the Bristol Channel coast. Banwell then was probably known as Bannavem Taberniae, which would have been the Roman form of the name of that Celtic village. Some 20 years later the Roman occupation started to fall apart and the “Dark Ages” ensued. They are known as the “Dark Ages” mainly because there are few documentary records extant from the period
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by lazyhound
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
It's impressive to see this much enthusiasm. I just checked in after a long weekend.
British arrogance for lack of a more diplomatic comment.
We had a situation that generated similar comments (though not maybe the same emotion....) when our Fearless Leader in the White House (who spent his military service protecting the skies over Iowa though no one can prove he showed up) entertained Britain's Queen.
There were alot of observations about how the administration admired British Royalty and seemed to act as though we still had some mystic connection to the Royal Family.
My comment was that the Brits seem to forget who threw King George's ar'se out here in 1776. And there is the regular claim that our Star Spangled Banner originated as a British Drinking Song.
Living with those of Irish heritage and expats all of my life in Chicago, I certainly would never be fool enough to dignifiy any comment attributing ITM to the Brits. My freinds are very clear about ITM being important because it symbolizes the Irish surviving despite the British......not because of them.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by zippydw
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
lazyhound - you can wrap it up in all the pseudo-history you like but there is no proof whatsoever that St Patrick came from Somerset! In truth his origin could be anywhere along the Irish pirate routes, more than likely somewhere in Wales. I think they would have been hard pushed to get that far up the Bristol Channel even if they had been inclined to do this.
It is far more likely, as I said above, that it was a mercy mission, rescuing the young Patrick from the boredom and bad fashion of his dull village existence. He had heard about the excitement of the Temple Bar and begged to be taken away.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The brits/ Welsh/ Bretons/ Atlantians/ Egyptians/ Martians are welcome to St. Pat and his Roman ringmasters; give me snakes to deal with any day... a snake can be taken pretty much at face value, no double standards, honest sort of a beast.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"who threw King George's ar'se out here in 1776."
yeah it was the French wasn't it?
random images and thoughts:
pirate routes - hard pushed - up the Bristol Channel!
funny how the Sucatus part of the name never caught on
was he the "only saint in the village"?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Bren
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"Brits". Ugh. Can't abide that word. The English don't mind it, but try using it on a Scotsman and see the withering glare you'll receive.
What's wrong with being specific? Irish people come from Ireland, Scots from Scotland, English from England, Derrymen from Derry (or Londonderry if you're in one of those Unionist crowds---must be careful to know your audience!)...
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by kennedy
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"The Island of Britain"... I don't think the issue really translates across in that way.
Do the Scots debate that they live on an island called Britain, is it really called something else?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The tune of The Star Spangled Banner was a British drinking song called "To Anacreon In Heaven" Did you know that at the time of the Revolution the colonies were flying the Grand Union Flag which had the stripes but a small Union Jack in the upper left hand corner? The story of Betsy Ross is a myth.George Washaington had more pressing matters to attend to in 1776 than seeking out a dressmaker to run up a flag for him.Even when the revolution was well under way Washington and his officers continued the nightly tradition of toasting the mother country.Their arguement was with George The Third.There are many myths surrounding the Revolution.America declared independence on the 2nd of July 1776,not the third. John Adams wrote to his wife "The second day of July 1776 will be the most memorable Epocha in the history of America" The official singing didn't begin until 2 August and wasn't concluded until 1781 when Thomas McKeane of Delaware signed. The Liberty Bell is a myth too.The Declaration was not read out in Philidelphia until 8 July and there is no record of bells being wrung.The bell was there,but it wasnt called The Liberty Bell until 1847 when the strory was told in a book by George Lippard.He made it up.
Paul Revere didn't make it to Concord,he was arrested on the way.He was more French than American his real name was Paul Rivoire.George Washington was a bloody awful general and only prevailed with the help of the Frech,a fact which America seems to have forgotten.I could go on.
To Anacreon In Heaven.
To Anacreon in heaven where he sat in full glee,
A few sons of harmony sent a petition,
That he their inspirer and patron would be,
When this answer arrived from the jolly old Grecian:
Voice, fiddle aud flute, no longer be mute,
I'll lend you my name and inspire you to boot!
And besides I'll instruct you like me to entwine
The myrtle of Venus and Bacchus's vine.
The news through Olympus immediately flew,
When old Thunder pretended to give himself airs,
If these mortals are suffered their scheme to pursue,
The devil a goddess will stay above stairs,
Hark! already they cry, in transports of joy,
A fig for Parnassus, to Rowley's we'll fly,
And there my good fellows, we'll learn to entwine
The myrtle of Venus and Bacchus's vine.
The yellow-haired god, and his nine fusty maids,
To the hill of old Lud will incontinent flee,
Idalia will boast but of tenantless shades,
And the biforked hill a mere desert will be,
My thunder, no fear on't, will soon do its errand,
And, damn me I'll swinge the ringleaders, I warrant
I'll trim the young dogs, for thus daring to twine
The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine.
Apollo rose up and said, "Prythee ne'er quarrel,
Good king of the gods, with my votaries below
Your thunder is useless - then showing his laurel,
Cried, Sic evitabile fulmen, you know!
Then over each head my laurels I'll spread,
So my sons from your crackers no mischief shall dread
Whilst snug in their club-room, they jovially twine
The myrtle of Venus and Bacchus's vine.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by dafydd
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Harry, all I'm sayin' is that you don't win many friends in Scotland by calling the people there Brits. And heaven help you if you mistake them for English!
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by kennedy
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The Welsh,Cornish,Breton and Manx tongues are called Brythonic,i.e. Britsh.Are the welsh the last remnants of the only true Brits?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by dafydd
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
It's not just the history aspect---it has to do with the non-dominant culture feeling threatened or alienated or whatever you want to call it. Americans don't mind being mistaken for Canadians, but Canadians get really annoyed when people think they're American, which apparently happens quite frequently. I'm told it's the same with Australia and New Zealand. So any time I meet someone I think might be Australian, I always guess that they're from New Zealand, so as not to offend.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by kennedy
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Re. Scotland. Yes, there seems to be a taste for the SNP at the moment. I know many Scots who give out about 'the Brits'... and people think the situation in the north of Ireland is schitzophrenic!
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
No one debates that the Island is called Britain, at least no one with any sense. The debate is more over the "United Kingdom of Great" bit. Does this sound similar to yourselves?
It is interesting that the idea of a Great Britain has been held up as the goal by so many monarchs. This was Edward I's goal and in his dealings with the Pope over the Scottish Question he tried to paint himself as the successor to Arthur, "The King of All the Britons". James VI had the same idea when he became king of England in 1603 and united the crowns - they saw themselves as a successor of this great king.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The term British seems to have become increasingly divisive these days. Maybe we now need to consign it to history and settle for English, Scottish and Welsh depending where you live on the island that was Britain and Irish for the inhabitants on the island of Ireland. Seems like a simple and logical solution to me as it doesn't attempt to coerce anyone into being something they feel they aren't!
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Bren
Depends on where on the continent you are.
Actually, we didn't finish getting them out of the US until 1812 as I recall.
Since Our current King George is allegedly related to the Crown by family, I wish HRH would have taken him back with her and given him a room at one of her castles.
No more politics from me here.
I hav eenough to learn about the Irish TM.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by zippydw
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
" This album and its companion volumes present some of Britain's finest folk musicians performing a selection of songs and instrumental music from the British folk tradition. "
On all the alums..so whats the problem? Its correct
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Catherine..
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
true it would be different if it was just talking about an Irish CD but when it's a series..of British folk..whats the problem.?
And maybe you should give the English a break, I mean, I'm completely Scottish..but your all bein a bit racist don't you think?
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Catherine..
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Nah, maybe you could be more specific re. the 'racist' thing, its terrible to generalise when discussing these things.
Regards,
harry.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Is the music on the CD any good?
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by CiaranMulholland
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"ITM being important because it symbolizes the Irish surviving despite the British......not because of them".
Given the close and vernable relationship between in native musics of Ireland, Scotland & Northumberland how many Scots and Northumberland-ers take that viewpoint? I rather suspect that 150 years ago the people of rural Ireland had more pressing things to worry about than playing music to upset the English - and as such when they did play, did so because that was what they liked to do & how they lived their lives.
One of the interesting points about this CD (insofar overlooked) is: What does it sound like when a load of musicians from the English scene play Irish music? What would it have sounded like if they were Scots?
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Andy V
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
For Heaven's sake we're all African really. Now get over it.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Joe CSS
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Years ago I learned to be politically correct and call myself "British" instead of "English". Then people changed their minds, and the Scots and Welsh *didn't* want to be inclusive, so now I either say I'm English (and proud of it, which doesn't mean I'm proud of everything that's been done in the name of England), or European.
But the real problem may be education, in that too many people don't know how to use apostrophes. So where "some of Britain's finest folk musicians" is ambiguous, it is gramatically simple. The ambiguity has, as we see, upset some people. If they were to have written the unambiguous "some of the British Isles' finest folk musicians", people would have got uneasy and confused and written things like "some of the British Isle's finest folk musicians". I suppose "some of the finest folk musicians of the British Isles" would have got round it, but we already know that the copywriters were careless, so perhaps we can't expect too much.
Given that part of the island of Ireland is still part of the UK of GB and NE, the only thing I can say to people who don't like the unambiguous and politically neutral phrase "British Isles" is - don't use it. If it's that bad it will go away.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yes.
I like stories.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Martin_BC
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I raised the question some time ago as to what the entire archipelago might be called, and I thought that the matter had been settled.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11965/comments#comment243680
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by oldstrings
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Three very important questions, oldstrings:
1 What was being settled?
2 What was the settlement reached?
3 Who agreed it?
I think you'll find that those questions are highly relevant at almost any point and time in the history of 'these islands'.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
When I said yesterday "this has been huge fun, we must do it again sometime." . . . .
I meant another time, not all over again and again and again.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I've never heard anyone in Scotland refer to "Brits" as if it didn't include Scots, but then I've only lived here 27 years so can't really be considered a local.
As soon as I hear someone here using phrases like "these islands" then my gut feeling is that it's coming from dogmatic NI political speak and the only thing to do is drop the subject and move quietly away from the bar unless you enjoy repetitive monologues. I'm not saying that people in Scotland don't use those phrases, but it always seems to be due to some NI connection. Perhaps the SNP will intorduce it into our daily doscourse now. I can hardly wait.
re: the original post - CD blurbs about any music are notoriously unreliable, and that goes tenfold for any type of traditional music. Apart from pointing out the error, I don't see any cause for outrage and anyway it was probably written by an Australian temp on a WHV with a raging hangover , a hostel tan and week-old underwear. Blame the Aussies, we don't give a flying feck anyway.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Bren
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Hahaha!
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yes, it should be pointed out that, when its used by people of a republican ilk in the north of Ireland (and by those sympathetic in Scotland), it generally means the British Army... which is the army of Britain, to which Scotland belongs... which is also a bit odd when you think about it... :-o
"These islands" is being used in an inclusive way in the north, so as not to offend or exclude, it has been used by unionist politicians for this reason. That's a good thing.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Eh? I've never heard of Scots calling other non-Scottish Britons "The Brits", and I am Scots.
Also, the "Great" bit of so called Great Britain is a historical term dating back to the middle ages and was originally intended to differentiate between the insular Britons on the island of Britain - "Great" Britain and the continental Britons who fled after the Saxon invasions across the sea to Armorica, or Brittany, or, believe it or not, "Little" Britain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Brittany
I see Conan gets a mention in that Wiki article!
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I've definitely heard it from Scots in reference to the British army; maybe they thought they were humoring me?
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Maybe not humouring but attempting to make some pan-Gaelic-brotherhood statement?....or something.....
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yes, maybe. I've had a similar thing with Bretons and Galicians- "Celtic cousins" type notion... hmmmmmmmmmmm...
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Are we still arguing here. JEEEEZ who started this stupid argument? (duck under desk)
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The Brits, who else!... (well actually it was set a a US plot to destabilise the European economy and halt the growing union of European countries...)
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Blasted brittish americans
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Shawaddyadaito
Éire is not an Island but 26 counties of an island. Éire is a nation. 6 counties still are not part of what politically is called Éire but when we are then Éire will be an island.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by iwerzon
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Harry - re the Bretons and Galicians, "jumping on the Celtic bandwagon", so to speak...better to have them on your side, surely?
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"I see Conan gets a mention in that Wiki article!"
Well I'm older than I look, Danny.
but not much
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Conan, it says here you're Welsh and you're in Little Britain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_Meriadoc
are you the only piano accordion player in the village?
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
The TT races start this weekend.
Is the Isle of Man in The *Irish Sea*?
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Johannes J
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"Isle of MAN"... blatant sexism!
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
It sure is in the Irish sea. Sure didn't Fionn Mac Cumhaill put it there when he threw a sod of turf across the sea.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Harry B, surely your not suggesting 'Isle of Person' ???
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
It's interesting to note that the same musicians appear on all four CDs.
I'm familiar with the *normal* styles of Tim Van Eyken, Jon Boden and John Spiers, and I'd have said they're all playing in the English style, and would be suprised to hear them playing *Irish* or *Scottish*. I note that Tim Van E plays guitar on the Scottish CD, and doesn't appear at all on the Welsh one - presumably he didn't feel he knew enough about it to join in.
I think the real question is not what the sleeve notes say, but what the music sounds like. I'm tempted to buy the English and Irish ones just to see if they do sound different, and genuine to my ears.
If I were compiling a CD of Irish tunes, I wouldn't have chosen these artists.
I think it is possible for experienced musicians to vary their styles, but if the Irish CD had had players like Frankie Gavin, Sharon Shannon and Seamus Tansey I'd think it'd sound more genuinely Irish.
I think the audience these CDs are aimed at aren't going to care that much.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Martin Milner
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Well, Danny, there's me and Myfanwy...
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Conán McDonnell
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
1.Don't confuse myths with fact . e.g . St. Patrick been taken from wales and all that ,should we say sorry to the snakes for kicking them out.
2.Ireland fought a war of Independence about 80 years ago to be called Irish and won it ,so there is no link politically or geographically with the UK.
3.Its time to get rid of the Union Jack because what does it represent.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Saint
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
didn't know you had a fanwy...........
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Iwerzon said:
"Shawaddyadaito
Éire is not an Island but 26 counties of an island. Éire is a nation. 6 counties still are not part of what politically is called Éire but when we are then Éire will be an island"
> I hope you have not got the champagne out just yet for that one!
Saint said:
2.Ireland fought a war of Independence about 80 years ago to be called Irish and won it ,so there is no link politically or geographically with the UK.
3.Its time to get rid of the Union Jack because what does it represent.
> Ireland almost won that war - as iwerzon so astutely pointed out (and indeed the real reason for much of this debate) you stopped just around the bend from the finishing line to be left with 26 Counties and a King (although you did manage to sort this last bit a little later on!)
> The "Union Jack" represents the British Navy. The "Union Flag" is the one that we all know and "love" - which takes pride of place on Buck House! - But let's not worry about technicalities.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Sorry - please don't send me any poison pen letters or vitriol - I passed a placement today and may be an over-exhuberant mood! No disrespect meant to anyone's history.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Well SS I gave up worrying about whether I was Irish, English, Welsh or British many years ago. The only thing I know for sure is that I'm a Scouser !
So you can pick up your pen and write your letter and I hope it helps allay your anger, but I think the only thing that will really soothe your savage breast is to pick up that fiddle and play!
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by flossie
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"you stopped just around the bend from the finishing line to be left with 26 Counties and a King" who said I stopped Ireland won the war of independence(The day the brits said they were willing to talk) what happened after was a different sneaky story.
Look at what the st. Patricks flag stands for and its part of the union jack flag
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Saint
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
" there is no link politically or geographically with the UK"
unless someone's moved Ireland in the night, the geographical links are the same as they were before independence
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bren
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
you never hear any brits say briton is part of ireland but it seems ok for some of ye to say that Ireland is part of the british isles a geographical dated term that should be left in the dark ages so we can all move on and personally I find it offencive .
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Saint
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
In Britain the North Sea was called the German Sea before World war one. There's a road near us, now called Canadian Avenue, that used to be called Berlin Road up till 1914.
The powers that be in the UK can effect name changes when it suits them.
I was under the impression that "British Isles" was an outmoded term. If not now, it should be. It has no meaning nowadays. I'm surprised anyone would use it on here, other than as an ostentacious display of pedantry, for the sake of it.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
As far as I can see the "British Isles" is a term that is still widely, commonly and frequently in use in a wide variety of spheres of discourse as a politically neutral, geographically meaningful term.
It's not as if it includes Ireland as a part of Britain; Ireland cannot possibly be considered part of Great Britain by anyone who knows what that term means, and the Republic is explicitly not part of the UK of GB and NE. No, "British Isles" refers to where this bunch of islands are. At least the term used to, and as a matter of observation still does. Maybe one day the usage will change, and maybe that will be a good thing, but it hasn't done yet.
Like I said before, people who don't like it can easily refrain from using it. They might even come up with an alternative - if it's a good one, it will catch on.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Didn't you used to live in the Irish part of the British Isles for a while, Bellman, The?
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Yes, Scotland, Wales, England and latterly Ireland, in the Republic, where I was a blow-in down in the Rebel County. Sometimes I even got paid for playing Irish trad there in places like Baltimore, which, considering my limited skills (as you will know, that is no mere rhetorical pose), must say something about the state of ITM there. Come to think of it, Dick Miles played at one or two of the gigs I did in Baltimore!
If it were not the case that part of the island of Ireland is part of the UK of GB and NE it might be easier to draw a mental line down the middle of the Irish sea, narrow and wiggly as it is.
Because this idea that the "British Isles" is a problem term for a few people I have just looked it up in a few reference books. In every case you get the same result: it's a geographical term for a heterogenous group of quite a large number of islands, Great Britain obviously being the largest and Ireland the second largest, with varied historical links and boundaries of varying political significance; some of the boundaries are visible as bodies of water, and some, like the boundary between the UK of GB and NE, being across land.
It's a mishmash. If Scotland ever secedes from the Union, it will still be part, not just of the British Isles but of Great Britain, while the Isle of Wight is not part of Great Britain and presumably never will be!
So the British Isles is a shopping-bag of a term, including all the various islands that have one thing in common - they lie in a bunch off the coast of middle Europe.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
When you say UK of GB and NE, do you mean NI? Or Northern Eire? If you mean the latter, that's an interesting one...
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
NI of course, stupid of me
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"Well SS I gave up worrying about whether I was Irish, English, Welsh or British many years ago. The only thing I know for sure is that I'm a Scouser !"
Fair point flossie
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I'll Repeat myself again the Problem I have is that there are still a number people use the term british isles just to upset and insult people. If I ever used a term that upset someone I would stop using it as soon as i realised it . So now knowing that the term british isles when referring to ireland can be insulting to some of us what type of individual would still want to use it.
I can do no better than repeat the words of an Irish Embassy spokesman in London quoted by The Times of London a few months ago: "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage." Amen to that
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Saint
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Amen saint. AMEN.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I've never really used the term "British Isles" before, but I think I might start using it now.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
There's no need for manners at a trough.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
No need for a sense of irony either.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Dow
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Is 'irony' the art of smoothing clothes? No, that would be 'ironry' I suppose.
The above applies generally, at all troughs.
Want another laugh, Ian Paisley Jnr. is 'gay whacking' at the moment, following in the steps of his daddy with his "Save Ulster from Sodomy" campaign from the 70s.
Regards,
H.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0203/paisleyi.html
Sitting down with taigs is one thing, but queers!?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Harry B
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Seems like Mr Paisley just has to have someone to dislike!
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by session savage
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"that there are still a number people use the term british isles just to upset and insult people."
seems to be a growing number objecting to the use of this term for the same purpose
# Posted on May 31st 2007 by Bren
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Stating that ITM is British is offensive to me.
An attack on the fine Morris tradition, i also find offensive.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by bodhran bliss
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"I've never really used the term "British Isles" before, but I think I might start using it now. "
Dow your a beauty.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
"it's a matter of courtesy to modify language when it causes offence"
Well said and I won't use the term "Iraqi murders" again.
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Saint
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
But if we go down that road Saint how are we going to refer to George Bush, the British Tory Party, Fine Gael, Daniel O'Donnell, tunes like Tamlin, etc, etc? We'll end up with a much diminished vocabulary!
# Posted on June 2nd 2007 by Bannerman
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
Harry wrote "Is 'irony' the art of smoothing clothes? No, that would be 'ironry' I suppose."
Irony is similiar to silvery and goldy?
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by iwerzon
Re: ITM is British????? am I over reacting?
I think Harry was indulging in a bit of Norn Irony
# Posted on June 5th 2007 by Bren