OK, trivial point, but I haven't been able to find a decent consensus among thems what are in the know on such stuff. Discounting the English "session" for the moment, which spelling do you find most correct/agreeable/appropriate:
Sessiun
Seisun
Seisiun
Sesiun
I've seen 'em all here in the US, and of course I'm pretty sure at least two of those are blatant misspellings or typos or whatever. But which is most correct among the Gaeltacht types?
Happy Memorial Day, all... thank you, all you Vets out there.
Isn't there a proper Irish word that's a translation of session? What word would you use for "session" in other contexts - a briefing session, a session of parliament or aromatherapy, for example?
Not that 'session' is an English word, of course. But 'seisiun' looks very much like a borrowing from English, and probably quite a recent one. What about the good old-fashioned 'ceili'? It's changed its meaning somewhat now (in Ireland, at least), but didn't it originally just mean a social gathering - which may have involved music and/or dance or neither? I think, in parts of Scotland, it is still used in this more general sense - am I right Danny?
"Not that 'session' is an English word, of course." You'll have to run that by me again. Don't over four centuries of use count?
I understood that it was well known that the various "Irish" spellings of the word derive from it's use as a recent neologism in Irish, one that some Irish speakers find hideous. The question of whether there is a proper Irish word for it is one I'm not qualified to answer.
I think that unless you speak Irish as your mother tongue, spelling it like "seisiún" with no hint of irony comes across as hideously pretentious. I've mostly found that if it's not genuine Irish speakers (rightly intent on using their language as much as possible, neologisms or otherwise), then it's people from the States who spell it like that, but for very different reasons. They seem to do it because they want to seem more "trad" and "authentic" than they actually are, maybe so that people will start up a conversation with them and hopefully ask them about their Irish ancestry or something
Yes, henceforth only "genuine" Irish speakers shall be allowed to use Irish words. All others shall be required to talk like George W Bush.
Many word in common use in Irish are loan words from English (or other languages). Many are words that refer to modern devises such as telephones.
Since the phenomenon of the music sesiun is not really very old, there may not be a very old word in Irish that refers to it.
Irish for telephone is "Guthán", murph - a poor example of loan word from English!
Then there is the story of a friend who was in a bar in Connemara and wanted to show off her Irish.
'Twas a few years ago, and she asked for a "luaithreadán".
The barman didn't understand, so she used the rest of her Irish and sign language to indicate she wanted to tip the end of her cigarette into something - a luaithreadán.
"Ó" says the barman "an >aistrae<!" (pronounced ash-tray)
I made a special effort just for you Dow. Yes I know what the official word for phone is, but most people seem to use "phon" with a fada over the o.
I am trying to learn Irish in order to sing in that language- if that makes me pretentious, so be it.
It's always easy to find someone who can tell you why you should'nt do something.
Leave it to good 'ol DK to introduce a political topic (yes, unfortunately, spelling is a political topic) on Memorial Day. What's up, DK, not enough polarization out there in the streets for you today with all the flag waving, marching bands, and grilling of questionable combinations of animal parts? A great topic, nevertheless...
I'm away from my stash of books right now, but the great Ciaran Carson (a man of letters as well as the music) said in his "Pocket Guide to Irish Music" about the word "crack" versus "craic" something in the same vein as what's been said here: that he rejects the "craic" spelling since it was a term created not by Irish-only speakers, but Irish people speaking English. I THINK he says the same thing in the book about the word session versus se...however the hell you want to spell it. Since spelling arises out of the diferentiation of sounds in a language, and any language has regional dialects and pronunciations, there really cannot be a be-all-end-all, intrinsically correct spelling of anything, no matter how old or primative (is it woof, arf, ruff, bark or what? My dog and I just can come to any sort of consensus...). For instance, people over here across the pond are ridiculed for "axing" a question instead of "asking" a question, but in Old English the verb to "ask" was actually spelled "acs" and pronounced that way. Sources are lacking here, I know, but it's true...it was in my University OE textbook.
So, the answer is, to my mind, there is no "correct" spelling, only an "accepted" spelling; the accepted spelling is decided by the Linguists--who hardly ever agree on anything--but what will always rule out is the popular sentiment, which usually determines to a large extent what the Linguists dictate as correct in the lexicon anyway...unless somebody's brother rigs the election (You see? Political always). Language is like water: you can freeze it for a while, but eventually it will melt and flow the way it wants to, (ir)regardless of how grating it may be to your ears. And with Global Warming on its way, it won't be long until our tongues dry up and stick to our teeth and we won't be doing much talking anyways.
So, take the side of authority to be safe! You've got to pick your leaders somehow, just don't let it be out of fear instead of respect. Comhaltas spells it "seisiúin" so damn it, spell it that way and like it!
P.S.: For whatever reason, perhaps I find the psuedo-Irish spelling a bit bourgeois or elitist, I spell it "session."
Dow. I'm agreeing with you more and more because you are an aficionado of Northumbrian tunes, as indeed am I, and because I'm sh1t scared of bb. Hope this helps.
Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
OK, trivial point, but I haven't been able to find a decent consensus among thems what are in the know on such stuff. Discounting the English "session" for the moment, which spelling do you find most correct/agreeable/appropriate:
Sessiun
Seisun
Seisiun
Sesiun
I've seen 'em all here in the US, and of course I'm pretty sure at least two of those are blatant misspellings or typos or whatever. But which is most correct among the Gaeltacht types?
Happy Memorial Day, all... thank you, all you Vets out there.
DK
# Posted on May 28th 2007 by darinkelly
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Taking into account that most of the musicians who attend sessions speak English and not Erse I would suggest "session".
# Posted on May 28th 2007 by dafydd
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Option 3 (Seisiun) is widely used in Ireland and is the only version that obeys Irish spelling rules (the u of course should have a fada).
Jim
# Posted on May 28th 2007 by skerries
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
sesh.
# Posted on May 28th 2007 by Alf Tupper
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Isn't there a proper Irish word that's a translation of session? What word would you use for "session" in other contexts - a briefing session, a session of parliament or aromatherapy, for example?
Not that 'session' is an English word, of course. But 'seisiun' looks very much like a borrowing from English, and probably quite a recent one. What about the good old-fashioned 'ceili'? It's changed its meaning somewhat now (in Ireland, at least), but didn't it originally just mean a social gathering - which may have involved music and/or dance or neither? I think, in parts of Scotland, it is still used in this more general sense - am I right Danny?
# Posted on May 28th 2007 by ragaman
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Only completely pretentious pillocks say anything other than session. And "sesh" is sooooo twee...
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Getdrunkwhilethewhizzyfiddlersplaysofastnooneelsecankeepup.
Other that that, session.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Wurzel
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Spelling of what we do herein?
a-r-g-u-e
c-a-r-p
p-o-n-t-i-f-i-c-a-t-e
etc.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Bob himself
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
"Not that 'session' is an English word, of course." You'll have to run that by me again. Don't over four centuries of use count?
I understood that it was well known that the various "Irish" spellings of the word derive from it's use as a recent neologism in Irish, one that some Irish speakers find hideous. The question of whether there is a proper Irish word for it is one I'm not qualified to answer.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Lingpupa
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
I think that unless you speak Irish as your mother tongue, spelling it like "seisiún" with no hint of irony comes across as hideously pretentious. I've mostly found that if it's not genuine Irish speakers (rightly intent on using their language as much as possible, neologisms or otherwise), then it's people from the States who spell it like that, but for very different reasons. They seem to do it because they want to seem more "trad" and "authentic" than they actually are, maybe so that people will start up a conversation with them and hopefully ask them about their Irish ancestry or something
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Dow
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Yes, henceforth only "genuine" Irish speakers shall be allowed to use Irish words. All others shall be required to talk like George W Bush.
Many word in common use in Irish are loan words from English (or other languages). Many are words that refer to modern devises such as telephones.
Since the phenomenon of the music sesiun is not really very old, there may not be a very old word in Irish that refers to it.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Murph
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
There we go, you just proved my point. Hideously pretentious. And you didn't even spell it properly.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Dow
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Irish for telephone is "Guthán", murph - a poor example of loan word from English!
Then there is the story of a friend who was in a bar in Connemara and wanted to show off her Irish.
'Twas a few years ago, and she asked for a "luaithreadán".
The barman didn't understand, so she used the rest of her Irish and sign language to indicate she wanted to tip the end of her cigarette into something - a luaithreadán.
"Ó" says the barman "an >aistrae<!" (pronounced ash-tray)
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by RockyRoader
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Irish for telephone is "Guthán"
?
http://www.invectis.co.uk/cork/telefon.jpg
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Bren
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
I suppose getting back to the origin of the species (og ichi plof tee rah nissi), An choisir, meaning house party is probably the closest?
And apologies - using a friend´s spanish computer so can´t find any fadas!
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by nnicharra
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
You´ll find them on the key to the right of the "ñ" (lower case)
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by murfbox
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
I utterly and completely agree with Dow.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
I made a special effort just for you Dow. Yes I know what the official word for phone is, but most people seem to use "phon" with a fada over the o.
I am trying to learn Irish in order to sing in that language- if that makes me pretentious, so be it.
It's always easy to find someone who can tell you why you should'nt do something.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Murph
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
No, you singing in the language is a beaudiful thought, Murph, but making references to "seisiún" is just bullsh1t so just stop it.
# Posted on May 29th 2007 by Dow
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
If it bugs you that much- OK, no problem.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Murph
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Good on ya Murph
Who's next? I will heal you.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Who's next? I'll tell you. Anyone who says "sesh," that's who. Go, Dow.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
That's Danny - he's not worth my while... he's incurable.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
PS Steve, why are you agreeing with me of late? You're freaking me out.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Dow
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
"...spellings of the word derive from it's use as a recent neologism in Irish ..."
On another thread you were complaining about people not being able to use apostophes, Bellman. More effort required, I think.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by benhall.1
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
So does Joan Hanrahan on ClareFm need healing because she used that pretentious word??
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Donough
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
What the Dicken's have apostrophe's got to do with these discussion's, Ben?
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Steve Shaw
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Leave it to good 'ol DK to introduce a political topic (yes, unfortunately, spelling is a political topic) on Memorial Day. What's up, DK, not enough polarization out there in the streets for you today with all the flag waving, marching bands, and grilling of questionable combinations of animal parts? A great topic, nevertheless...
I'm away from my stash of books right now, but the great Ciaran Carson (a man of letters as well as the music) said in his "Pocket Guide to Irish Music" about the word "crack" versus "craic" something in the same vein as what's been said here: that he rejects the "craic" spelling since it was a term created not by Irish-only speakers, but Irish people speaking English. I THINK he says the same thing in the book about the word session versus se...however the hell you want to spell it. Since spelling arises out of the diferentiation of sounds in a language, and any language has regional dialects and pronunciations, there really cannot be a be-all-end-all, intrinsically correct spelling of anything, no matter how old or primative (is it woof, arf, ruff, bark or what? My dog and I just can come to any sort of consensus...). For instance, people over here across the pond are ridiculed for "axing" a question instead of "asking" a question, but in Old English the verb to "ask" was actually spelled "acs" and pronounced that way. Sources are lacking here, I know, but it's true...it was in my University OE textbook.
So, the answer is, to my mind, there is no "correct" spelling, only an "accepted" spelling; the accepted spelling is decided by the Linguists--who hardly ever agree on anything--but what will always rule out is the popular sentiment, which usually determines to a large extent what the Linguists dictate as correct in the lexicon anyway...unless somebody's brother rigs the election (You see? Political always). Language is like water: you can freeze it for a while, but eventually it will melt and flow the way it wants to, (ir)regardless of how grating it may be to your ears. And with Global Warming on its way, it won't be long until our tongues dry up and stick to our teeth and we won't be doing much talking anyways.
So, take the side of authority to be safe! You've got to pick your leaders somehow, just don't let it be out of fear instead of respect. Comhaltas spells it "seisiúin" so damn it, spell it that way and like it!
P.S.: For whatever reason, perhaps I find the psuedo-Irish spelling a bit bourgeois or elitist, I spell it "session."
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by grymater
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
so, to sum up, grymater: "what Dow said"
Good to see that Kieran Carson's got his head screwed on when it comes to spelling.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Bren
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
No, Bren. To better sum up: "What grymater said."
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by grymater
Re: Poll: Spelling of that what we do herein...
Dow. I'm agreeing with you more and more because you are an aficionado of Northumbrian tunes, as indeed am I, and because I'm sh1t scared of bb. Hope this helps.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by Steve Shaw