Hello,
I'm the french ethnomusicologist back from Ireland!!!! Nice nice, with lot of sun - incredible, this april month there!
So. Now, I need you advices about lots and lots and lots of strange questions!!!
If anyone can give his advice, so great for me.
Thanks!!!
1. Do you think regional styles still exist in Ireland ?
2. If you’ve written that the regional styles is a close question now, because of the influence of Michael Coleman, James Morrison, etc., does it really mean that you think it has existed ? When ? Where ? How ?
3. Could you tell me why you think it has disappeared ?
4. If it has existed or exists, could you write the names of this different regional styles ?
5. How could you identify all these regional fiddle styles ? (area, technical criteria, repertory, specific rhythm, allure, tonality/modality, fingering, bowing….)
6. Who represents for you the different styles you have cited ? If you think about a specific tune played by a specific musician, could you write the name of it and the name of the record/cassette ?
7. Do they exactly correspond to the criteria first defined ?
8. What do you think about the theories of regional styles ?
9. Do you know more or less a boring French student who can’t let you quiet a minute ? Whose English is really special ? I mean, one you could easily give up, especially in a terrible university labour ?
10. Could you try to explain why the term of regional styles is commonly used in and about Ireland ?
11. Do you think someone can be able to play two or more regional styles ? Is it possible to show the “taste” these other styles have ?
12. For you, what are fiddle styles today (if there’s fiddle styles today)?
13. If you had to classify today’s traditional fiddler’s, how would you do ?
14. Check the number closest to the number of tunes you know. What type of tune you don’t use to play ? Why ? Could you give me an idea of the proportions of reels, jigs, hornpipes, polkas, waltz etc… you play ?
15. Name some of your favourite tunes.
16. What’s for you the most common keys used in Irish traditional music ? Are they other’s you play less frequently ? Which one ?
17. Do you play other types of music (jazz, country, classical, other…) ?
18. Do you play in the third position, or more ? Why ?
19. How and why did you learn to play the fiddle ? How old were you when you learned to play ? Where were you living at the time ? Did anyone show you how to play ? If you remember, what’s the name of your first tune ?
20. Do you have listen to records at this time…? Which one ? Do you think it can have influenced you ? A little, a lot ?
21. Do you use frequently these terms : fiddle, fiddler, fiddling ? Donegal, Sligo, Clare, Kerry…….. style ?
22. Do you have used or do you use scores ? What kind of (classical notation, or another, and with which code) ?
23. Whose musicians (I don’t mean other than those you have listen to on records) have influenced you ? In what way (repertory, bowing, fingering, keys, other…) ?
24. Do you have rules concerning the way you bow, you embellish, you finger and you finally you choose a tune ? Is it a peculiar way, or others you now do the same ?
25. Do you practice another instrument ? Which one ?
26. Do you think this other practice has influenced your fiddle way of playing ? If yes, how ?
27. For you, what’s a fiddler ?
28. A violinist ?
29. What are their common points, their differences ?
30. Do you think you’re a fiddler or a violinist ? Why ?
31. How could you define traditional music ? Folk music ? Classical music ?
32. What do you think about these distinctions ? Are they useful, or constraining ?
33. Comparing Irish traditional music and others traditional music, for you what would be the good points of it ?
34. Do you think the changes of playing contexts –I mean dancing, walking on a march etc. – is really a impoverishment ? If yes, why ?
35. Is it possible to play today traditional music ?
36. Do you know the term revivalism ?
37. If yes, what do you think about it ?
38. How do you work on your instrument ?
39. What results do you expect to when you’re learning a tune ?
40. What is your specificity when you compare your way of playing to other’s ?
41. How do you prepare your records/concerts/sessions/fleadh/lessons ?
42. What’s your instrument’s origin ?
43. I heard that the only difference between a fiddle and a violin is the price. What do you think about it ?
44. How do you choose the selection of tunes for records/ concerts/sessions/fleadh/lessons ?
45. What are public’s reactions when you’re playing in concert ? Do you have a strong, particular or strange memory ?
46. What do you think about the role of transmission of a traditional musician ? Do you teach the fiddle ? How ?
47. For you, what’s the impact of records on traditional music ?
48. Do you think notation has a strong impact on traditional musicians ?
49. What’s the worst think you can remember in your musical life ?
50. And the best ?
51. What are your current musical projects ?
Are you still there??????????????????????????????????????????
Thank you so much, and if you could send me some of your answers or other reflexions..... at coco88@hotmail.fr, it would be WONDERFULL.
Coline.
Whew! ~ 51 threads in 1... 52+... Not so sure about #50... I do think you were away from the espresso for too long and are suffering a caffeine relapse...
what, thats the most intensive set of questions i have come across. To answer these comprehensively would take most of the day!
Im sure a lot of this has already been discussed if you search 'thesession' history.
ill try to answer the group of questions 1-10:
Generally my observation from my travels in Ireland last year were that regional styles are no longer strictly regional. Eg: you will find 'Donegal style' players in Cork for instance because you can just jump in a car/bus and zip from the top to bottom of Ireland on one of their many new shiny expressways. Moreover i think there its less an issue of 'regional style' and moreso 'personality style' by this i mean i found certain music sounded like certain well known famous fiddle players. Eg: bunch of people playing similar to Frankie Gavin, Kevin Burke etc.
My understanding of style has changed a lot since my visit, i guess an avid fiddle player is also a really good listener of trad music and they takes elements from all different styles of fiddle (and other trad instruments) playing and assemble them in their own style after a while. You cant just go carbon copying a living tradition. Have to branch out and find you own way of doing things
Therefore you will find many people who say there is not 'regional style' anymore i have to say i agree with this too. So many other important factors go into the equation other than just 'regional style'. I like to look at the way Tommy people's playing has changed over the years. To me he's a very human fiddle player because of this, you can see what experience was doing to his playing.
You know, I think the SCREAMING at the start may have st me off on a negative slant. You are the brave one Sam, but I don't think you quite covered all 10 ~ but your suggestion to start was constructive ~ click on the 'Search' tab for 'Discussions' and surf to your heat's content.
There are so many potential docrotal theses in all the above that it might be years before I get back to you on just the first question. I'll keep tabs on all my expenses, past and present, and will expect full payment before I hand over the tome...
Find a waterfall( it doesn't have to be a big one) and approach it gently with your fiddle in hand. Throw a bone behind the water and out will come a little man to teach you how to tune your instrument. If you wish to "play" the instrument, then you must throw a bone with meat and all behind the waterfall, and he will answer all of your questions except #18... .
(much to personal)
I can give you a few topic specific bibliographies, not small, but then that would require some study...
Here's one book you could get for a start in building up resources to refer to ~
"The Companion to Irish Traditional Music"
Edited by Fintan Vallely
Cork University Press, 1999
ISBN: 1-85t918-148-1
Now, after the caffeine has worn off and you can start to feel the ground again underfoot, in a day or so, come back and start all over with just one question. Let that run for a couple of days, and then ask another 'one' question, and wait a few more days ~ etc... As Sam infers, most of these topics have been covered here, several times even, but there is always welcome to go over old topics again ~ ONE-AT-A-TIME... Please?
My answer to question 16 (keys used in Irish music) would be this:
In my own lifetime (1950s on), the great majority of Irish tunes have been played at standard concert pitch in one, two or three sharps (i.e. in G, D or A major, or the related minor/modal keys). A very small number have been consistently played in C or F major, or D or G minor.
In recent decades, I'd say 1980s onwards, a number of bands have played and recorded a semitone up from this, so most of their tunes are now heard in Ab, Eb or Bb major, or the related minor/modal keys. (I imagine the anomalous tunes, in C Major etc., go up a semitone too.)
I do not know whether this has caught on in sessions in Ireland, or in the ceilidh band scene, as I do not live there. I am glad it has not done so in sessions I go to in the UK, as it would make my main instrument (melodeon) useless!
In the more distant past, say 100 years ago, the tuning of instruments and the choice of pitch seems to have been more various (partly because standard pitch kept changing) but I don't know enough about it to comment.
You must be in perfect pitch heaven nicholas, maybe something in the water or the brew? I would still say that the choice of pitch remains quite variable, but I that is by design...
YOU'RE WELCOME! Oops!, sorry, I didn't realize I was yelling, the headphones you know and listening to loud rock and roll, no, I take that back, it was “Värtinä”, but cranked up. There, they've finished that track and I can take the headphones off and start over ~ ~ ~ you're welcome...
Ok, seriously, the days of armchair ethnomusicology are over. Why are you posting a lengthy questionaire on this type of forum? I would recommend keeping it to individual personal (not over the internet) interviews to give you the depth of information and nuance that is required for responsible fieldwork. As an ethnomusicologist studying Irish music myself, If I wanted my inquiries answered on this board, I would stick to one or two questions that relate closely or contrast directly.
Also, do you play the music yourself? I would become involved in sessions or begin to take lessons from an knowledgeable and experienced teacher to learn the fundamentals yourself. I find that as a player, there is so much more that is understood because of the personal engagement with the music that could be understood from the outside.
yes I play.
no, I don't think it will be accepted if a play a great tune the day of my exam.
yes, I'd like to speak with you. where are you?
I love holidays, but I've to write now.
And, last, j'ai quelques petits problèmes pour discuter de longues heures en anglais,
et
lorsque cela est arrivé, j'ai été un peu contrainte de discuter SANS pouvoir enregistrer tout cela
et
j'ai besoin de preuves,
de texte
d'enregistrement.
Have you ever seen the effect of a recorder on a musician?
I'm not a tourist
Thanks!
!!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
!!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Hello,
I'm the french ethnomusicologist back from Ireland!!!! Nice nice, with lot of sun - incredible, this april month there!
So. Now, I need you advices about lots and lots and lots of strange questions!!!
If anyone can give his advice, so great for me.
Thanks!!!
1. Do you think regional styles still exist in Ireland ?
2. If you’ve written that the regional styles is a close question now, because of the influence of Michael Coleman, James Morrison, etc., does it really mean that you think it has existed ? When ? Where ? How ?
3. Could you tell me why you think it has disappeared ?
4. If it has existed or exists, could you write the names of this different regional styles ?
5. How could you identify all these regional fiddle styles ? (area, technical criteria, repertory, specific rhythm, allure, tonality/modality, fingering, bowing….)
6. Who represents for you the different styles you have cited ? If you think about a specific tune played by a specific musician, could you write the name of it and the name of the record/cassette ?
7. Do they exactly correspond to the criteria first defined ?
8. What do you think about the theories of regional styles ?
9. Do you know more or less a boring French student who can’t let you quiet a minute ? Whose English is really special ? I mean, one you could easily give up, especially in a terrible university labour ?
10. Could you try to explain why the term of regional styles is commonly used in and about Ireland ?
11. Do you think someone can be able to play two or more regional styles ? Is it possible to show the “taste” these other styles have ?
12. For you, what are fiddle styles today (if there’s fiddle styles today)?
13. If you had to classify today’s traditional fiddler’s, how would you do ?
14. Check the number closest to the number of tunes you know. What type of tune you don’t use to play ? Why ? Could you give me an idea of the proportions of reels, jigs, hornpipes, polkas, waltz etc… you play ?
15. Name some of your favourite tunes.
16. What’s for you the most common keys used in Irish traditional music ? Are they other’s you play less frequently ? Which one ?
17. Do you play other types of music (jazz, country, classical, other…) ?
18. Do you play in the third position, or more ? Why ?
19. How and why did you learn to play the fiddle ? How old were you when you learned to play ? Where were you living at the time ? Did anyone show you how to play ? If you remember, what’s the name of your first tune ?
20. Do you have listen to records at this time…? Which one ? Do you think it can have influenced you ? A little, a lot ?
21. Do you use frequently these terms : fiddle, fiddler, fiddling ? Donegal, Sligo, Clare, Kerry…….. style ?
22. Do you have used or do you use scores ? What kind of (classical notation, or another, and with which code) ?
23. Whose musicians (I don’t mean other than those you have listen to on records) have influenced you ? In what way (repertory, bowing, fingering, keys, other…) ?
24. Do you have rules concerning the way you bow, you embellish, you finger and you finally you choose a tune ? Is it a peculiar way, or others you now do the same ?
25. Do you practice another instrument ? Which one ?
26. Do you think this other practice has influenced your fiddle way of playing ? If yes, how ?
27. For you, what’s a fiddler ?
28. A violinist ?
29. What are their common points, their differences ?
30. Do you think you’re a fiddler or a violinist ? Why ?
31. How could you define traditional music ? Folk music ? Classical music ?
32. What do you think about these distinctions ? Are they useful, or constraining ?
33. Comparing Irish traditional music and others traditional music, for you what would be the good points of it ?
34. Do you think the changes of playing contexts –I mean dancing, walking on a march etc. – is really a impoverishment ? If yes, why ?
35. Is it possible to play today traditional music ?
36. Do you know the term revivalism ?
37. If yes, what do you think about it ?
38. How do you work on your instrument ?
39. What results do you expect to when you’re learning a tune ?
40. What is your specificity when you compare your way of playing to other’s ?
41. How do you prepare your records/concerts/sessions/fleadh/lessons ?
42. What’s your instrument’s origin ?
43. I heard that the only difference between a fiddle and a violin is the price. What do you think about it ?
44. How do you choose the selection of tunes for records/ concerts/sessions/fleadh/lessons ?
45. What are public’s reactions when you’re playing in concert ? Do you have a strong, particular or strange memory ?
46. What do you think about the role of transmission of a traditional musician ? Do you teach the fiddle ? How ?
47. For you, what’s the impact of records on traditional music ?
48. Do you think notation has a strong impact on traditional musicians ?
49. What’s the worst think you can remember in your musical life ?
50. And the best ?
51. What are your current musical projects ?
Are you still there??????????????????????????????????????????
Thank you so much, and if you could send me some of your answers or other reflexions..... at coco88@hotmail.fr, it would be WONDERFULL.
Coline.
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by awfull girl
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Whew! ~ 51 threads in 1... 52+... Not so sure about #50... I do think you were away from the espresso for too long and are suffering a caffeine relapse...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
I take it from the questionaire that you haven't actually studied 'ethnomusicology'? So, is it a hobby?
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
You are obviously having fun ~ enjoy... But cut back on the espresso...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Phew -You cannot be serious ? (sorry but I've got a job -and tunes to learn etc! )
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by Col Arco
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
what, thats the most intensive set of questions i have come across. To answer these comprehensively would take most of the day!
Im sure a lot of this has already been discussed if you search 'thesession' history.
ill try to answer the group of questions 1-10:
Generally my observation from my travels in Ireland last year were that regional styles are no longer strictly regional. Eg: you will find 'Donegal style' players in Cork for instance because you can just jump in a car/bus and zip from the top to bottom of Ireland on one of their many new shiny expressways. Moreover i think there its less an issue of 'regional style' and moreso 'personality style' by this i mean i found certain music sounded like certain well known famous fiddle players. Eg: bunch of people playing similar to Frankie Gavin, Kevin Burke etc.
My understanding of style has changed a lot since my visit, i guess an avid fiddle player is also a really good listener of trad music and they takes elements from all different styles of fiddle (and other trad instruments) playing and assemble them in their own style after a while. You cant just go carbon copying a living tradition. Have to branch out and find you own way of doing things
Therefore you will find many people who say there is not 'regional style' anymore i have to say i agree with this too. So many other important factors go into the equation other than just 'regional style'. I like to look at the way Tommy people's playing has changed over the years. To me he's a very human fiddle player because of this, you can see what experience was doing to his playing.
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by SamW
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
You know, I think the SCREAMING at the start may have st me off on a negative slant. You are the brave one Sam, but I don't think you quite covered all 10 ~ but your suggestion to start was constructive ~ click on the 'Search' tab for 'Discussions' and surf to your heat's content.
There are so many potential docrotal theses in all the above that it might be years before I get back to you on just the first question. I'll keep tabs on all my expenses, past and present, and will expect full payment before I hand over the tome...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
What's a 'docrotal'? ~ an alligator like creature? I meant, of course, doctoral theses...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Find a waterfall( it doesn't have to be a big one) and approach it gently with your fiddle in hand. Throw a bone behind the water and out will come a little man to teach you how to tune your instrument. If you wish to "play" the instrument, then you must throw a bone with meat and all behind the waterfall, and he will answer all of your questions except #18... .
(much to personal)
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
:D
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by robharper
I can give you a few topic specific bibliographies, not small, but then that would require some study...
Here's one book you could get for a start in building up resources to refer to ~
"The Companion to Irish Traditional Music"
Edited by Fintan Vallely
Cork University Press, 1999
ISBN: 1-85t918-148-1
Now, after the caffeine has worn off and you can start to feel the ground again underfoot, in a day or so, come back and start all over with just one question. Let that run for a couple of days, and then ask another 'one' question, and wait a few more days ~ etc... As Sam infers, most of these topics have been covered here, several times even, but there is always welcome to go over old topics again ~ ONE-AT-A-TIME... Please?
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
18.) Do you play in the third position, or more ? Why ?
Whoa! I missed that, and two questions in one. How embarrassing...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Just a few examples ~
Discussion: High "c" on the fiddle
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by Andee
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1883
Discussion: The Dusty End of the Neck...............
# Posted on July 23rd 2003 by erin
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1919
Discussion: Avoiding 3rd position
# Posted on August 29th 2003 by Worldfiddler
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2073
Discussion: Positions
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by fiddlefantastic
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/3804
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
High "c" ~ I like that...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
My answer to question 16 (keys used in Irish music) would be this:
In my own lifetime (1950s on), the great majority of Irish tunes have been played at standard concert pitch in one, two or three sharps (i.e. in G, D or A major, or the related minor/modal keys). A very small number have been consistently played in C or F major, or D or G minor.
In recent decades, I'd say 1980s onwards, a number of bands have played and recorded a semitone up from this, so most of their tunes are now heard in Ab, Eb or Bb major, or the related minor/modal keys. (I imagine the anomalous tunes, in C Major etc., go up a semitone too.)
I do not know whether this has caught on in sessions in Ireland, or in the ceilidh band scene, as I do not live there. I am glad it has not done so in sessions I go to in the UK, as it would make my main instrument (melodeon) useless!
In the more distant past, say 100 years ago, the tuning of instruments and the choice of pitch seems to have been more various (partly because standard pitch kept changing) but I don't know enough about it to comment.
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by nicholas
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
You must be in perfect pitch heaven nicholas, maybe something in the water or the brew? I would still say that the choice of pitch remains quite variable, but I that is by design...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
~ but I 'doubt' that is by design...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Questions !!!! Through !!!!!
http://www.zappa-analysis.com/shuttxt-f.htm
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by Tonya
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
!!!I love it Tonya!!!
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Frank Zappa ~ "Treacherous Cretins"
Lyrics:
Heh heh heh . . .
Bozzio: It's gone . . .
O'Hearn: What? Your talent for sucking?
Bozzio: I . . .
O'Hearn: Never . . .
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
LOL. Finally, proof that academics are, indeed, on another planet.
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by Dow
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
What proof? And what syllogism am I inferring? The proofs I'm seeing are contrary... I say therefore I am? Nah!, pull the other leg...
# Posted on May 25th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
GREAT!! I LOVE YOUR REACTIONS!!!
SO FUNNY!!
I must change my name: cafeingirl?
PS: Thanks
# Posted on May 26th 2007 by awfull girl
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
YOU'RE WELCOME! Oops!, sorry, I didn't realize I was yelling, the headphones you know and listening to loud rock and roll, no, I take that back, it was “Värtinä”, but cranked up. There, they've finished that track and I can take the headphones off and start over ~ ~ ~ you're welcome...
# Posted on May 26th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Ok, seriously, the days of armchair ethnomusicology are over. Why are you posting a lengthy questionaire on this type of forum? I would recommend keeping it to individual personal (not over the internet) interviews to give you the depth of information and nuance that is required for responsible fieldwork. As an ethnomusicologist studying Irish music myself, If I wanted my inquiries answered on this board, I would stick to one or two questions that relate closely or contrast directly.
Also, do you play the music yourself? I would become involved in sessions or begin to take lessons from an knowledgeable and experienced teacher to learn the fundamentals yourself. I find that as a player, there is so much more that is understood because of the personal engagement with the music that could be understood from the outside.
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by violynnsey
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
Can I kiss you on the cheek violynnsey? ~ :-X ~
# Posted on May 30th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: !!!!QUESTIONS FOR ALL FIDDLERS!!!!!
yes I play.
no, I don't think it will be accepted if a play a great tune the day of my exam.
yes, I'd like to speak with you. where are you?
I love holidays, but I've to write now.
And, last, j'ai quelques petits problèmes pour discuter de longues heures en anglais,
et
lorsque cela est arrivé, j'ai été un peu contrainte de discuter SANS pouvoir enregistrer tout cela
et
j'ai besoin de preuves,
de texte
d'enregistrement.
Have you ever seen the effect of a recorder on a musician?
I'm not a tourist
Thanks!
# Posted on June 3rd 2007 by awfull girl