Hello! I'm new here. I must say that this is a most helpful site! I'm a fiddle player. I'm 29 and I've been playing for 20 years. I'm classically trained, but for the past 4-5 years, I've been playing bluegrass and other folk music from around the world. I'm also a violin/fiddle instructor, but as far as me or anyone else knows, I'm the only fiddle teacher in the area (which throws a damper on my taking some lessons, which I'm not aversed to).
My trouble (at the moment) is with trebles. Honestly, I haven't gotten any books on Irish fiddling, and maybe you guys can help me find some good ones to learn out of. I just listen and play what I hear. I LOVE Irish and Scottish music, but those ornaments have me completely stumped as to how to create them. I've read that it's a flick in the wrist, but I can't make my bow do it. So I have a few questions; maybe y'all can help me:
1.) What, exactly, does "flick the wrist" mean and how do you do it? Is there some pressure technique in my bow hand that I'm missing?
2.) Are trebles done all on the same bow?
3.) What are some good instruction books for an advanced 20-year player to learn from? (I want to build on what I already know, not start from the beginning like a lot of method books do)...and with Irish fiddle, do any come with DVD's so I can see the technique being demonstrated?
I can read music, and I play 4 other instruments, including piano since I was 5, so I understand technical terms and a great deal of music theory...feel free to answer as technically as you need to.
Are they all done on the same bow? No. They're DUD or UDU but usually DUD and, in essence, they're the same as any bowed triplet. Three things that might help, though:
First: for the note *after* the treble, keep the bow going in the same direction. So, including the note before and the note after the treble, the bow directions are U DUD D (or D UDU U, if you're doing an up bow treble). This can be tricky if the note after the treble is the same as the treble, but what you do then is put in a 'cut' to separate the next note from the treble. This is where you hammer on a finger one, two or threee steps above the one you're on between the end note of the treble and the next note.
Second: as with all things, practice them slowly ... very slowly.
Third: try to use as little bow as possible on each of the three notes in the treble. And, when I say as litle as possible, I really mean it - a milimetre is enough for a 'scratchy triplet' (which reminds me of another thing: you shoud dig into the string a bit when you do these things).
I would say that, if you do all of the above, before you know it you'll be 'flicking your wrist' with the best of them.
The suggestions already posted are good. Also, if possible, find a player who can play trebles and try to get a few minutes of their time to show you how they do it, after a session or something.
One more thing...I am not sure if this will be helpful for you, but I find that the motion for a treble is more like a "tiny controlled arm spasm" than a "flick of the wrist". But I don't know if the way I play them is orthodox, whatever that might mean.
My recollection of learning to play trebles is that I would play DUD triplets very slowly and then I would just work on playing them at ever increasing speeds. It's a very strange feeling movement at first but over time it really does become something you can summon at will.
The way I produce a treble is very much dependent on the speed of the tune. When playing a hornpipe for example, I rely mostly on lower arm action to really separate the notes, in that way you get three * clear * notes. When playing fast reels it's all in the wrist and merely a rhythmic impulse than three different notes.
I write this not as an expert but as someone who is currently working to develop a good triplet, so hopefully I can offer some decent insight to the struggle.
It seems there are two major approaches, the “tense the arm” school and the “keep all motions as close to the bow as possible” school. I think the “tense the arm” is a little easier at first but harder to control at speed. The “close to the bow” technique might be more orthodox (if one can even apply a term like that to This Music).
I’m trying to be a “close to the bow” guy. Brian Conway told me to keep the triplet motion in my fingers and hand, and not to rely on just wrist motion alone. He also suggested slightly lifting up the outer edge of my bowing hand, to shift the angle of hand movement from sideways to more up-and-down, almost like waving.
For what its worth, a year ago I found D-U-D bowing easier. In an effort to make both directions equally accessible, I’ve consciously worked on my U-D-U bowing. The result is that I now find the U-D-U bowing is crisper. This is probably a phase, I‘m thinking.
Think about getting a DVD/video or going to a workshop. More helpful than a book, usually.
My teacher started teaching them to me in two steps...First was the treble itself---middle of the bow, "in the string" (you want pressure), and almost no bow at all, you just want to get the string vibrating, with the movements evenly spaced. Then when you can do that, practice drawing it out into the note after it, both downbow and upbow. I still can only do them about 5% of the time, but I figure another 10,000 tries and I'll have it.
And for DVD's, one of these days I'm going to buy these from Kevin Burke:
For me, the best bowed trebles (aka "cat-sneeze triplets") come when I don't think about it too much--I'm just hearing the tune go by, and *pop* it happens. Sort of a "watched pot never boils" kind of thing.
In my opinion trebles are best used sparingly,too many trebles can give a jittery sound to the music ,and adds nothing to the dance feel,trebles are rarely used in sliabh luchra music,[sometimes in hornpipes].David Lyth produced avery good bookon sligo fiddlers Coleman Killoran and Morrison,and analysed their different trebling styles,its available from Comhaltas.
the Trouble with Trebles is that if they are overused the fiddler can start to sound like an angry wasp.
In my opinion the best player of trebles is paddy canny,he use them ,but not to excess,and his music still sounds relaxed.
The Donegal style is not my favourite[although hearing Highlands is a refreshing change],but having said that to have lots of different styles makes the music more interesting,and I would hate to see Donegal style disappear.
Trouble with Trebles
Trouble with Trebles
Hello! I'm new here. I must say that this is a most helpful site! I'm a fiddle player. I'm 29 and I've been playing for 20 years. I'm classically trained, but for the past 4-5 years, I've been playing bluegrass and other folk music from around the world. I'm also a violin/fiddle instructor, but as far as me or anyone else knows, I'm the only fiddle teacher in the area (which throws a damper on my taking some lessons, which I'm not aversed to).
My trouble (at the moment) is with trebles. Honestly, I haven't gotten any books on Irish fiddling, and maybe you guys can help me find some good ones to learn out of. I just listen and play what I hear. I LOVE Irish and Scottish music, but those ornaments have me completely stumped as to how to create them. I've read that it's a flick in the wrist, but I can't make my bow do it. So I have a few questions; maybe y'all can help me:
1.) What, exactly, does "flick the wrist" mean and how do you do it? Is there some pressure technique in my bow hand that I'm missing?
2.) Are trebles done all on the same bow?
3.) What are some good instruction books for an advanced 20-year player to learn from? (I want to build on what I already know, not start from the beginning like a lot of method books do)...and with Irish fiddle, do any come with DVD's so I can see the technique being demonstrated?
I can read music, and I play 4 other instruments, including piano since I was 5, so I understand technical terms and a great deal of music theory...feel free to answer as technically as you need to.
Thank you very much for your help.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by LivingDedGrrl
Re: Trouble with Trebles
Let's leave 'flicking the wrist' for the moment.
Are they all done on the same bow? No. They're DUD or UDU but usually DUD and, in essence, they're the same as any bowed triplet. Three things that might help, though:
First: for the note *after* the treble, keep the bow going in the same direction. So, including the note before and the note after the treble, the bow directions are U DUD D (or D UDU U, if you're doing an up bow treble). This can be tricky if the note after the treble is the same as the treble, but what you do then is put in a 'cut' to separate the next note from the treble. This is where you hammer on a finger one, two or threee steps above the one you're on between the end note of the treble and the next note.
Second: as with all things, practice them slowly ... very slowly.
Third: try to use as little bow as possible on each of the three notes in the treble. And, when I say as litle as possible, I really mean it - a milimetre is enough for a 'scratchy triplet' (which reminds me of another thing: you shoud dig into the string a bit when you do these things).
I would say that, if you do all of the above, before you know it you'll be 'flicking your wrist' with the best of them.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by ethical blend
Re: Trouble with Trebles
The suggestions already posted are good. Also, if possible, find a player who can play trebles and try to get a few minutes of their time to show you how they do it, after a session or something.
One more thing...I am not sure if this will be helpful for you, but I find that the motion for a treble is more like a "tiny controlled arm spasm" than a "flick of the wrist". But I don't know if the way I play them is orthodox, whatever that might mean.
My recollection of learning to play trebles is that I would play DUD triplets very slowly and then I would just work on playing them at ever increasing speeds. It's a very strange feeling movement at first but over time it really does become something you can summon at will.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by timmy!
Re: Trouble with Trebles
The way I produce a treble is very much dependent on the speed of the tune. When playing a hornpipe for example, I rely mostly on lower arm action to really separate the notes, in that way you get three * clear * notes. When playing fast reels it's all in the wrist and merely a rhythmic impulse than three different notes.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by Henk Bos
Re: Trouble with Trebles
Try the book, The Irish Fiddle By Paul McNevin, it comes with a tape.It's also great for banjo.
http://tinyurl.com/2m8sr5
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by mick_the_tool
Re: Trouble with Trebles
I can't vouch for the McNevin book but here is a more permanent link to it: http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Irish-Fiddle/dp/0786647795
(I think the "tinyurl" type links stop working after a few days)
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by timmy!
Re: Trouble with Trebles
I write this not as an expert but as someone who is currently working to develop a good triplet, so hopefully I can offer some decent insight to the struggle.
It seems there are two major approaches, the “tense the arm” school and the “keep all motions as close to the bow as possible” school. I think the “tense the arm” is a little easier at first but harder to control at speed. The “close to the bow” technique might be more orthodox (if one can even apply a term like that to This Music).
I’m trying to be a “close to the bow” guy. Brian Conway told me to keep the triplet motion in my fingers and hand, and not to rely on just wrist motion alone. He also suggested slightly lifting up the outer edge of my bowing hand, to shift the angle of hand movement from sideways to more up-and-down, almost like waving.
For what its worth, a year ago I found D-U-D bowing easier. In an effort to make both directions equally accessible, I’ve consciously worked on my U-D-U bowing. The result is that I now find the U-D-U bowing is crisper. This is probably a phase, I‘m thinking.
Think about getting a DVD/video or going to a workshop. More helpful than a book, usually.
Good luck!
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by fidkid
Re: Trouble with Trebles
My teacher started teaching them to me in two steps...First was the treble itself---middle of the bow, "in the string" (you want pressure), and almost no bow at all, you just want to get the string vibrating, with the movements evenly spaced. Then when you can do that, practice drawing it out into the note after it, both downbow and upbow. I still can only do them about 5% of the time, but I figure another 10,000 tries and I'll have it.
And for DVD's, one of these days I'm going to buy these from Kevin Burke:
http://www.kevinburke.com/html_fiddlelessons.html
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by kennedy
Re: Trouble with Trebles
WOW! You guys are GREAT!! Thank you so much for the help and advice. I will try everything you've all suggested and see what happens. THANKS!! =D
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by LivingDedGrrl
Re: Trouble with Trebles
For me, the best bowed trebles (aka "cat-sneeze triplets") come when I don't think about it too much--I'm just hearing the tune go by, and *pop* it happens. Sort of a "watched pot never boils" kind of thing.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by John Galt
Re: Trouble with Trebles
Livingded, do a search of the discussions here for "bowed triplets" and you'll come up with loads of ideas. Here's one thread as an example: http://thesession.org/discussions/display/200/comments#comment2602
Scroll down to the bowed triplets headings.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by Will Harmon
Re: Trouble with Trebles
In my opinion trebles are best used sparingly,too many trebles can give a jittery sound to the music ,and adds nothing to the dance feel,trebles are rarely used in sliabh luchra music,[sometimes in hornpipes].David Lyth produced avery good bookon sligo fiddlers Coleman Killoran and Morrison,and analysed their different trebling styles,its available from Comhaltas.
the Trouble with Trebles is that if they are overused the fiddler can start to sound like an angry wasp.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by Dick Miles
Re: Trouble with Trebles
In my opinion the best player of trebles is paddy canny,he use them ,but not to excess,and his music still sounds relaxed.
The Donegal style is not my favourite[although hearing Highlands is a refreshing change],but having said that to have lots of different styles makes the music more interesting,and I would hate to see Donegal style disappear.
# Posted on May 21st 2007 by Dick Miles
Re: Trouble with Trebles
Ohio eh? Nice websites - I'm still puzzling/pondering over the rather different take on things ...
# Posted on May 21st 2007 by ethical blend