I was listening to a minidisc recording of a session the other day, and I suddenly realised that, because the quality of the recording was really good, I could hear a conversation taking place at the other end of the table from where I had been sitting. These people's voices could be heard even above the music and loud pub chatter in the background. Then I realised that they were making nasty, bitchy comments about my playing. This continued for 3 times through "The College Groves". You can hear almost every word. I'm all for constructive criticism where it's due, but this was just bitchiness. The thing that most upsets me about it I think is that I have only ever had words of praise for these same people, whether it be to their faces or behind their backs. I'm trying very hard not to let it get me down, but have never felt so negative about Irish music ever before, and I almost feel like giving up altogether. At a session I am pretty quiet I suppose, and I never start a tune set unless I am asked. I haven't been playing Irish music all that long so I'm a beginner as far as Irish stuff is concerned, and I realise that there are a lot of faults in my playing - I totally admit that, but I feel as though I'm spending a lot of time trying my best to do justice to the brilliant players around me through my own playing, and it's crushing to hear that it's all in vain. Has anyone else had similar experiences with a recording or just overhearing people inadvertently? How did you use the experience in a positive way?
...or saying it right to your face!
How you use criticism positively depends, of course, on what they said. "The guy can't count" or "Man, is he loud!" are probably believable, fairly objective critiques, and the remedies, if not easy, are at least easily understood. I can imagine it would be disheartening to hear it, but at least it's useful.
If the criticisms were more subjective -- "The man thinks he's a damned jazz player!" -- you can either try to change to please them or not, obviously.
And if they were neither constructive nor entirely subjective but more like, well, general bitchiness, maybe they didn't like the way you parked your car outside or you dress funny or something, and what can you do?
I had someone tell me the other day some things about my playing that weren't flattering. It stung, but I started trying to think of it objectively, and I found myself agreeing. In fact, I've received some pretty sound advice recently -- from you, Dow, in fact, as well as from some others, all of which makes me realize my critic was right, and that I've got to keep struggling.
If it were easy, everybody would be doing it, right?
In any case, don't assume any of it is in vain. It all is, of course, but don't let yourself believe it.
You're right and speak a lot of sense - thanks. I think I'm maybe just worried about feeling self-conscious and seizing up in future sessions or something. I'll have a good think about what you've said...
Yep, Through the fuzz of the good old analogue tape recorder you can't hear people bitching about your playing, but if you hear somebody bitching aboubt your playing for bitching's sake, turn 'round and ask them just what they can fault your playing for and better still, ask how in there oppinion you could improve your playing. (They can't stand this) And if you get a very rude response indicating that you should leave their session, find another session where you are appriciated
Listen to the conversation one more time. Is there anything, anything at all, they are saying that you think may be valid? If so, work hard to improve on it. When finished, erase the whole effin thing, tunes and all. Just get over it and get on with it. For many people the music is a competitive, exclusive environment. You will never defeat elitism, but you can't allow it to defeat you either.
Ditto what LongNote says. For some people, music is all about pecking order and status. For the rest of us, it's about having fun together making enjoyable noise. I would rather play with a bunch of happy-go-lucky rank beginners than the competitive sort, no matter how talented, any time.
Oh, screw 'em, Dow! I wouldn't even try to look at it as "constructive criticism" if they don't have the nerve to tell it to your face. Egos seem to get in the way of too many sessions. Sessions are a learning and sharing experience...it shouldn't matter so much how well someone can play. I'm an advanced player, but I find myself seeking out a certain kind of session...one without egos. When you find one of these sessions, they're usually more intermediate and slower going, but it's always a nice change from some of the more cutthroat sessions I play in. Don't even waste a second of your time worrying about those people...we play because we love it, not because it should matter to other people.
"...we play because we love it, not because it should matter to other people."
That's it, in a nutshell.
Granted, another musician may want to talk to you about your volume or intonation or sense of timing, but this can be done in a friendly, helpful way, preferably in private. Blame yourself if you don't get the hint or heed the advice when it's accurate and well aimed. But blame the messenger when it's done in spite, with cruelty, or out of ego.
What it boils down to for me is: listen to yourself. Are you contributing to the other players having a good time? Are you having fun? If the answers are yes, you're doing fine. If either answer is no, you either need to practice more at home or find a different session. Otherwise, ignore the eejits and grab a seat.
Hey it did make me look It's a funny thing about playing music... it's a very personal yet social activity and criticism of any kind always hurts a little but it is how we get over it that keeps us going. No matter what... don't let it take the music from you, that's even worse. Signed... been there
Mark, I know we have our disagreements on a range of topics and quite heated arguments about everything and nothing.
I cannot give you solace or comfort on this one. I truly wish I could. I find myself nearing apoplexy when I consider who the inbred jumped up self important little cretins might be. No-one in the "Irish Traditional Dance Music" session scene in Sydney has an ounce of the nouse that you have shown in the short time that you have been here.You have more talent and class in the little finger on your left hand than they could ever aspire to.
There is only criticism and jealousy hiding in the hearts of those who would make smartasred comments about another player.
I have been guilty of slagging off in my time on this planet. But I believe that everyone has something to say and if you wish to receive respect then you should be willing to open your heart and
accept people as they are and LISTEN to what they have to "say".
I have been at sessions, where everything is going "swimmingly" and then watched the reactions on some people's faces when a beginner summons up enough courage and decides to dive into the deep end and start a tune. The smug looks make me want to vomit and make me wonder why I am sitting with these people.
It must be very easy for them to forget how excrutiating it was for themselves as a novice.I have heard people rubbish instruments because they don't fall into their enforced line of "what makes a good session". I am sick to death of hearing people say that that tune is crap - it has nothing going for it - its not traditional.
I want to hear that recording Mark-just so I can identify for certain who the bastards are, so that I don't go to jail for killing the wrong person.
Thanks Greenwiggle, those were very um strong words! The thing is, it's a bit like what Cuchulain54, LongNote and Will etc were saying - that they did have valid points, and they're extremely talented musicians (God I'm still being nice about them...), it was just that the thing that bothered me was the "behind the back" aspect of it. Except they were only the other side of the table and I feel a bit like: "you have *such* a nerve" - do you know what I mean? If they'd approached me and said it all to my face I would have accepted it as constructive criticism immediately and been grateful. But they were like right there - talking in fairly loud voices so that people in general could hear and also while I was actually playing and enjoying the music. I have such a lot to learn and I am working every day on improving on my weaknesses, and I've also booked tickets for workshops with my favourite players this year. I suppose I can't really do more than that. Now I'm torn between seeking out a different session and trying to forget it, or alternatively just to put up with the bitching and try and improve as best I can. Maybe I just need a rest...
Sorry Dow...wake up to yerself and stop apologising for them. It was not only rude, but demeaning.You may be a novice-in your own understanding, but not to my ears. These people have shown contempt and a lack of "tolerance"(for want of a better word) and respect for fellow musicians. After all, isn't that what sets us apart from the herd? Shouldn't the love and passion for music encompass all?
You might as well say that thesession is just a forum for people to complain about their own likes and dislikes without them performing an introspection about why they don't like the way one person sounds different or plays in a different setting or key or style or manner or on a "different" instrument or why they cannot "grasp" their own shortcomings.
I don't really think that and I know you don't. So before anyone jumps up and down on my corpse let me say thank you to everyone who CONTRIBUTES to this site and especially Jeremy for wading through our onlinesubconcious' and providing such a wonderful and INVALUABLE resource.
I know who the session mongrels are now from my own deductions and investigations and sadly I am not surprised as these people think that they are the very big fish in a small pond. I have nothing but contempt for these idiots who think that they are the "real" musicians.
Get a life boys and girls in Sydney. There is a defintie smell of dirty undies in the air.
It's not about how good you are on your instruments, or where you were born...
As my gran used to say, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." You probably won't teach them kindness or manners, but you can put them in their place. If you were an awful but sincere musician (and I doubt the "awful" part completely), there are tactful ways of helping. You certainly weren't the fool here. Anyone who heard them and is any sort of decent folk knows them for what they are...idiots. You buck up, hold your head high and go on. The only ones who made public fools of themselves were the jerks--not you.
If they are just mean-spirited, what's wrong with looking them in their faces and being as loud in your questioning of their *kind* critiques? Surely everyone there would benefit more from their embarrassed blush than yours. "I'm sorry, I couldn't help but overhearing your kind constructive criticisms while I was playing. I have always admired your playing, and said so to everyone, even behind your backs. I'd really like to learn. I'm trying to improve here, and I know that of course, you're only trying to help me by saying my rolls 'suck' so that I and everyone else can hear you. What is it about my rolls that 'sucks'?" Be sure to quote their ugliest words for all to hear.
They should be ashamed of themselves! How grade-school! If I were burning bridges I wouldn't need to cross again, I'd end it with something like, "I thought you were ladies, and you think I'm pathetic at this. Apparently, we were both mistaken. By the way, do you kiss your babies with that filthy mouth?" and walk away. Let them think on that and be speechless. I believe they should be just as mortified by their behavior as you were by their comments. I'm sorry, but I'd find a different session. Music should be a positive experience, and if they don't handle it that way, find a session that does. Don't let them take your joy or your enthusiasm. It's what makes music live.
I Think that no matter how high you go in music, there are still people above you somewhere. you send these barstards to wales. me and my classical mates will pull THEIR playing to pieces! Dont give up your music, just don't even get sad in the smallest way. If you do they've already won. Confront them next time you see them, and ask them just what their Bloody ideas are. Putting down a fellow musicians music. This is ITM, we should support and include EVERYONE Not just good musicians who think they're the top of the heap, So cheer up, smile, and don't let it get to you. If the worst comes to the worst, and they are still makeing behind your back comments, change session.
:->
Depending on whether you want to continue working with them, maybe one way to bring something positive out of it is to ensure they don’t do it to somebody else in future.
Like katie (I was actually typing this while she was posting) I am wondering whether it is worth telling them their conversation was accidentally caught on disc, that constructive comments would have been welcomed face-to-face but this sort of thing is out of place in a session, and that they should mind their tongues in future lest they be responsible for someone less thick-skinned giving up altogether? Maybe they’re not worth the effort or the potential aggro; maybe they’d have the good grace to be embarrassed and mend their ways.
This “rang a bell” for me today. I’m currently struggling with a paying gig where I have (for long and complicated reasons) to fit a young person into the group whose playing skills are NOT the skills required for the job. I’m tearing my hair out… but the youngster is trying hard, hasn’t had the instrument out of the case for years and it’s the first bit of interest they’ve shown in ages. Everyone’s fingers are crossed that the bug will bite and music will be back on the agenda, because there's clearly talent there. I’m SOOOO conscious of being constructive and helpful every inch of the way because I'm their first contact with music for yonks and don’t want to be the one who makes them put their axe back in the cupboard for good. This player would actually go very well in a trad/folk group and I’m going to suggest it after the gig. What happens if someone like this cops what Dow overheard? And if you can be constructive under stress for a public gig, what’s wrong with these people at a voluntary fun thing in a pub?
You go Katie!! I agree with everything you have put forward. It is hard enough to find a pub in Sydney where you can have a session. There are about three to four. The majority of them occur at the same time on a Sunday evening. So Dow has a limited choice there I am afraid. Some people may think that the "standard is not high" at one of them, but I personally would rather go to that one- where people enjoy themselves and have a good time playing music and drinkin and dancin and having fun. Rather than playing esoteric tunes and discussing the latest CDs or name dropping and the like.Taking themselves FAR 2 seriously for their own good.
Yes, it is easy to spot a fellow victim of "session abuse". As a survivor I propose that we form a self support group and lynch the noisy bastards who continue to backbite and sledge newcomers and people who approach the music from a different angle/level of competence
Here's a motto that will take you far in life, and one that I try to live by: Never, ever take anything personally. Stuff like that should glide off your back like duckwater (or something). I wouldn't even bother to try to find useful tidbits in there. Forget about it. You'll never know what their motives were for being tactless. Maybe they were drunk. Maybe they didn't see the microphone in front of them. Maybe their panties were on too tight. Maybe they weren't talking about you. Maybe they KNEW you were taping them and thought it would be funny to give you an earful. If anything they said about your playing had any validity, someone else will tell you in a much more useful way eventually, providing you with some opportunity for dialogue. Trust me. I had to hear "slow down" about six billion times before I finally got the message (or TRIED to get the message.) Don't automatically assume malicious intent. Try to give them and yourself the benefit of the doubt by thinking up something simple that makes you happy to believe. Don't stop going to the session either. Eventually these things are forgotten.
And remember: The wonderful thing about sucking completely is that everyone notices when you improve.
Sounds like a Jenny Jones topic -- "When Seisiuns Go Sour!" Dow, we'll bring you out first, the crowd will be on your side (we'll all have bought advance tix), bring out the perpetrators who will be booed into humiliation & submission... a panel of arbitrators featuring Will Harmon, katiebythegate,cuchulain54, greenwiggle, et al. shall attempt to mend the wounds... then a rousing craic over the closing credits.
I would say 'no throwing chairs', but that would be sinking to their level. Don't worry, next time around, they'll be in bottom of your tequila bottle.
Something bb said at a session the other day has stuck in my mind. I was discussing a sort of similar unpleasant but unrelated incident, and she said "sometimes you take a knock and it hurts, but you've just got to grit your teeth and keep going - you're going to find yourself playing with people you don't like sometimes but battling it won't get you anywhere" or something to that effect. Sorry if I've misquoted you there bb, but I thought it was quite a cool thing to say anyway.
Additionally, I find a lot of solace in the poetry of Rumi. Two quotes I turn to are these: "The soul is here for its own joy." & "It makes absolutely no difference what ppl think of you."
I can sort of see the irony in the fact that I was trying to get a really good recording of a totally wicked session with a full-on minidisc playeeeer... stereo microphooooone blah blah blah, and instead I pick up people bitching about me in the corner. It's quite funny really now I think about it...
Goddamn greenwiggle, cop on!!! I do think that the people that dow are talking about are of the 'all tunes are good it depends how you play them variety' So instead of insulting just about every single one of my friends why dont you bloody find out who you are talking about. I personally love backing, I think sessions are lost without it and Dow has great chords. Ive had people say the most goddam awful things behind my back and to my face & yet - I would NEVER be as insulting to everyone in the entire sydney scene as you just have. And for your information greenwiggle - there are plenty of talented musicians in sydney, how bout Benno and Peter just to name two !!!
BB don't make me get up. I wasn't insulting you personally, just the people you choose to play with at times.I know it wasn't you who made these comments to Dow and you may think and say what you like about me. It may make me angry but I'll get over it. Just because you drink and play in a pub session that I am sledging does not mean that I am attacking you or your talent.
If you take everything so seriously, how do you ever enjoy yourself?There are more talented musicians living in Sydney than those who attend the cramped and confined conditions in pubs. You and I both know that. But I will not sit by tuning my fiddle while others are laying into my friend with unjust criticism because they think they play music better than he does. I can see by your spirited response that you feel as protective about your friends.
Wow! this thread's brought out some pretty strong emotions - and rightfully so!
Dow - when you said you were doing "the College Groves" at the time my first thought was:
-how dare they be giving out to you for even attempting such a cracking reel.
Anyway, a few pot shots have been aimed at me in my time, cos I tend, these days, to play the so called [bitchily] Typewriter (AKA silver flute), because (spookily enough, related to two other ongoing threads - Aidan's and Andy's - both music friends of mine) I've got that wrist RSI due to excessive computer mouse abuse, which is exacerbated considerably, due to the extra stretch, by blackwood flute playing (and maybe also cos my quiet blackwood flute can't compete with 3 banjos [sorry Andy - NOT being bitchy - honest]).
Unless you're really crap, which I doubt, because you're plugged into this site regularly (I'll explain shortly), there is absolutely no justification for the kind of s**t you had to listen to.
I reckon (this is my theory - probably totally wrong) it was two players who have known each other for long enough to have established a musical rapport on a certain number of tunes, but don't want their boat rocked by some upstart Pommie, but who also don't know each other well enough to have the confidence in their relationship to disagree, and give you the credit where it was due.
In which case, you were merely the recipient of their negative vibes. Don't get phased by music-saddos.
The alternative scenario is that they are the paid players who were worried that the standard would drop for the three minutes you did your thaing and all the customers would vanish, and they wouldn't be invited back, in which case, their session, and its organisation, is less than robust. Hence their paranoia, translated into bitchiness.
But some form or another of bitchiness, or competitiveness is inherent in our game. The trick is to know how to play the game, especially when you're playing an away fixture (sometimes home also).
Back to the being crap bit. I'm always bitching about bodhrans, spoons, singers, etc., but unless they spend a number of years getting to grips with their instruments, the required tunes/beats, whatever, then they will always be fair game. Unless a person is a Bodhran Player, as outlined in greenwiggle's thread, they are a bodhran beater. This species is easily distinguished by lower educational attainment, short attention span, and a preoccupation with making loud noises bereft of any discernible pattern. They are thus fair game for bitchiness. They also have zero computer or social skills, so don't worry, you don't and never will, fall into that category.
It's tough launching out on a new instrument in a session, even a year or two after the maiden voyage. I know. Just keep doing it. You'll make less mistakes as you go, then, who knows where the time goes, you're accepted.
No Greenwiggle - I was not defending my 'friends' I consider Dow a friend and defend him as well, what I was getting so hett up about was this comment of yours
'No-one in the "Irish Traditional Dance Music" session scene in Sydney has an ounce of the nouse that you have shown in the short time that you have been here.You have more talent and class in the little finger on your left hand than they could ever aspire to.' Which makes you just as bad as them.
And don't forget: The exchange of insults is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels,welsh harp tunes and other insults.
bb - aaaaarrrrrrgh! Please stop fighting with Greenwiggle - you're both lovely and hearing you lash out is making me feel really bad for starting this thread. I must insist that the people on said recording were extremely talented musicians and have probs been playing for heaps longer than me I don't know - I only started backing January 1999 so I've got a long way to go. As a player who listens to recordings to myself often, I am fully aware of *exactly* what my weaknesses (and strengths) are. What bothered me about the whole incident was that the bitching was intermittent throughout the session from beginning to end, actually, not just through the one tune, and also it was my first time at that session so I was feeling a bit self-conscious anyway. I want to try and use the comments constructively and positively instead of getting depressed about it and... like that's all I was really writing about today, just to get some advice from people who have had similar experiences.
Well bb, I do know who made those comments. I stick by my words of encouragement to Dow. I truly believe that this cittern playing fool has an appreciation and TALENT for whatever he plays that leaves me in awe. He is wasted as a backer-for although increasingly competent he is an outstanding melody man. But people are not giving him the respect that they themselves demand.Being better at something than someone else does not automatically make you a better person. I know that you seem to take this discussion personally bb-and that is a credit to your courage. But don't tell me to cop on. I'm not the one insulting people.Yes. I think the "session scene" in Sydney leaves a lot to be desired. I can make this call because in the past I have set up sessions around town in the last 10 years. I havve seen publicans with little desire to foster the music. Only two or three publicans have cared.I have watched the good players come and go, and the disheartened take flight in the face of comments such as Dow captured.If you can't say anything good...say nowt.Take it easy now bb...
Dow, make the offending commenters listen to their commentary. Don't feel bad about making them listen to it either. Believe me they will shudder for the rest of their lives at the memory of how ackward & shameful they felt when you played it back to them (you have the option of faking crying to really rub it in). Two wrongs don't make a right, but sometimes they help negate each other a little bit.Otherwise take Longnote's advice on the whole affair. Take the good, ditch the bad, get on with life & for god's sake get rid of that recording asap.
Brad
"The exchange of insults is what keeps traditional irish music alive". Like it, probably a grain of truth in there somewhere too unfortunately. Anyway that's the first thing that made me smile in this thread - I also wish you hadn't started it, dow.
Anyway, can y'all chill out!? BB, greenW is fond
of hyperbole, it's part of his charm, so don't take it too seriously. Besides, if he was really trying to be insulting he would have placed everybody below the talent in the little finger of dow's RIGHT hand.
Any chance of getting a copy of those recordings Dow? I'm thinking I could have some fun with them on the computer, any nice percussive sounding insults that would loop well at 120 bpm?
More watching in horror than lurking, no fun watching friends rip each other's virtual bloody arms off*! Anyway, aren't we all in paid employ at the moment? Back to your real jobs you bitchin' bludgers!
Hyperbole - is that like the Superbowl?
OK...firstly, bb:
I would like to apologise for any insults you may have drawn from my online persona.None were directed at you, and I have the utmost respect for you as a person, a player and a friend. (If this is still possible after this thread
Musicians in Sydney:
I stand by my comments. I am saddened that the session scene would appear to be crippled. Maybe that is just my understanding of the current situation. Jealousy does not come into it on my part, I long ago realised that the ultimate session is the one that you just missed, and everyone tells you it was the best. So what!That's OK. There'll be another one along soon - hopefully ;) I was not deliberately stating that Dow is a better musician than any of you. He does have better manners than some musicians though.If you would like to ask me about my comments next time any of you see me, I'll be happy to buy you a drink and we can sit and talk about what can be done-if anything, to rectify these situations.
If you choose to hold it against me, that is your choice and I will not try to disuade from it.
Dow:
Don't feel guilty for starting this conversation. It is a valid excercise to try and find out if others are affected by the same narrowmindedness that assailed you and to try and take it all in your stride. Talking about it with others can help - even if they hijack the thread.I apologise to you for having to step in between myself and Miss bb.and stop us from my misguided attempts at humour, satire, honesty and a grain of salt.
Cheers.
Hey I'm not angry - we have always thought very differently from each other. However I can really not see the bitchiness in the scene that you seem to think is there. I know that obviously someone said something upsetting otherwise dow wouldnt have posted, thats the reason I wouldnt mind knowing who it was because I dont know any spiteful musicians around at the moment, If I knew who it was then maybe i would get it into context a bit more. It doesnt seem to me that anyone I play with would sit bitching about someone else - maybe commenting but never in a mean or degrading way. I guess I just need to hear the evidence. Anyhow - thats all I have for now- and as for your comment on Dow being wasted as a backer - Never!! We need good backers, they are few and far between
Thanks bb...I wasn't sure if you were or not. It is true that we think differently because we do and because we do, we are usually coming at the same intersection from different directions at varying speeds. Sometimes we speed up and krash - other times we obey the "rules" and give each other the right of way and respect that everyone deserves.
As to the identity of said persons I am not at liberty to divulge my information - I think Dow might find it inappropriate to let anyone else know after the way his threads have unravelled.It would probably be best for all concerned if I shut my cybermouth for a while and actually did something constructive
Hopefully, this too shall pass.
Allright, enough fighting bb and greenw!! I like *both* of you guys and always appreciate your comments normally. So quit it.
Dow--you seem like such a nice person, and one who really respects the music. You are serious about learning and love to play. It breaks my hear to hear how mean these people were to you. Makes me wonder how often it has happened to me unkowingly. Ah, well--the best revenge is success. Keep on loving the music--keep on playing and someday you will blow these miniscule mean-hearted, cold, bitchy people out the back door and into the garbage dumpster with your spectacular playing!!
I've been lurking, too, and I hesitate to jump into these muddy waters, but what the heck.
I know it's hurtful to be talked about in a degrading way, but please, try to rise above it. Anyone who talks about someone else in such a negative way is lacking in self-esteem, no matter their ability, as well as lacking in love and respect for themselves and for others. This isn't about you.
It might sound weird, but what if you could talk to them in a nonconfrontational way about what they said? Just sit down and chat with them for a minute or two and then say something like: "Gee, you probably didn't know I was recording last week when we were playing College Groves, and y'all were talking about my playing. I was wondering what you meant by . . . . (fill in the blank, whatever they said). Do you think you could explain it to me? I love ITM so much, and I'm trying to learn, and maybe you could help me."
The key to this, of course, is that you would have to be prepared NOT TO REACT to whatever they said or did; to come at it from a point of genuine curiosity and compassion and trying to figure out what goes on inside other people's heads. You SHOULD NOT try this unless you are 100 PERCENT CERTAIN that you can you can do so without getting upset or flying off the handle.
The point wouldn't really be to ask their advice, but instead to observe their reactions and see what they might have to say, and, possibly, to find out if there might be any common ground. My guess isthat one or more of several things might happen: They might be chastised upon being notified that their unkind comments had been observed. They might be so taken aback that they would cease and desist (this might not apply to you, but to their dealing with other people in the future, in which case you would probably never know about it). They might actually give you some constructive suggestions. They might be so embarrassed that they would flee the session, instead of you having to find another one. More likely, none of these things would happen, but at least you would have the satisfaction of following through on a matter that's important to you and of confronting your own pain and fear.
If you really wanted to get into it, you could (maybe, depending on their reaction to the aforementioned) explain to them (again, as a statement of fact, not in an argumentative way) that they probably have no idea how much anguish their remarks caused. My strong feeling is that most people have no idea how their actions affect other people.
I can say these things because I have been guilty, many times, of glossing over or avoiding something hurtful, and every time, I've wished I had done otherwise. If nothing else, by speaking up, you might cause somebody to think twice before they repeat such an action. Maybe not, but at least you will have done your part.
I know my thoughts are somewhat off the subject of music per se, but that's the way I think. We are all here to experience and love and grow, and I ask the highest blessings for you and for all who are experiencing communion with others and with the divine through music, or through any and all other means.
Incidently - this going out to Dow, greenwiggle and bb - which Sydney session did this event occur at? I want to go to it, it all sounds terribly exciting...I think we're all far too friendly at the Mean Fiddler session on Wednesday nights. Let me know where this session is, I want to check it out, but only out of morbid curiosity - haha! The Sydney session scene is quite narrow, well, it is for me because I don't live near the city...has anyone tried starting one at Parramatta? Parramatta would be a good place to have a session seeing as it's central to pretty much everywhere as long as you can jump on a train....I rue the day that I was born a Westie...
You go away and come back and the world's blown up!
Well, this probably doesn't help you much, Mark, but...as it happens, I've been told by a Sydney player that they think you're a really good ("gorgeous" was the word used, although I *think* it was in reference to your playing) backer. So it's not just bad things said behind your back. Heh. (NO, I wasn't checking up on you behind your back, it happened quite naturally when I said I had acquaintances in Sydney's playing community.)
A very VERY good backer of my acquaintance, whose opinion I respect very much in regards to the music and all that surrounds it, once told me that he couldn't stand the accompaniment work of another very good backer, and even said some things that verged more on insulting than personal taste. I blinked mentally, and then went away and listened to the second backer's recordings, trying to figure out what was so awful about his playing. I listened and listened, trying to puzzle it out. Was it chord choices? The way he hit the strings? What? After a few weeks, I went back and outright asked, "Just what the heck is so horrible about his playing? I honestly can't figure it out."
And, distilled down, the answer was, "Well, I just don't like it, is all. Doesn't mean you can't like it if you like, I just don't -- it's a personal thing."
My mother once told me, (a bespectacled, buck-toothed, ugly little kid) that the way life worked was that not everyone would like me, and that was just fine, because otherwise I would have no time for myself. I've tried to remember that, since of course I'd love for everyone to love me madly and passsionately, but I don't think that's going to happen.
But I think Kerri's got it right. And who knows what their problem was. Maybe they have so little self-esteem that they need to find someone to feel more worthwhile than, and so have to tear other people down. Maybe they were trying to avoid getting into an argument themselves and needed to find somebody as a target for the stress in their lives.
It's a shame that now you'll never be able to so much as look at them without remembering what they said, and even worse that, erring on the generous side here, perhaps it didn't even have much to do with you, your playing, and what they honestly thought. Maybe one or both of them is a little afraid of what the other will think of them and so said things they didn't mean, to try and seem knowledgeable and knowing. You just can't and never will, likely, know.
It doesn't really matter, Mark, though it may sting now. The thing that matters is that you're playing what you want to play how you want to play it. We're certainly looking forward to having you here Stateside come August. The other two can't probably say that, now can they?
I was feeling really crappy about this before but now I feel much more positive so I'm glad I posted this after all. I think I'm going to take Will's advice. He said:
"What it boils down to for me is: listen to yourself. Are you contributing to the other players having a good time? Are you having fun? If the answers are yes, you're doing fine. If either answer is no, you either need to practice more at home or find a different session".
My answer is: "No in retrospect I was probably not having a good time because I could sense an atmosphere even then despite the fact that I hadn't heard the recording yet. And no, I was probably spoiling other people's enjoyment, and this can be deduced from the comments on the recording. So I need to practise more at home or find a different session".
I think the other musicians were simply of a higher standard and I was genuinely out of my depth, and because of that I guess it was a good exercise. I shall treat it positively and use it as a reason to practise loads this year and improve my playing. Thanks for all the encouragement.
I live a half a world from Sydney, but I think there are some universal truths.
1. We musicians correlate our self-worth with our self-perceived ability. That is why it hurts to hear negative comments from fellow musicians.
2. If you are feeling down about your ability, remember that no matter how good you are, there is somebody out there that can kick your butt on College Groves, Rawhide, Vivaldi, or whatever.
The moral of the story is to remember that we play because we love to make music.
Mmm. And now you will have to put up with everyone posting to tell you not to let the bastards win and of course you should go to the session.
Your choice, of course -- you know best for yourself. Just remember that one almost always thinks one is worse than one actually is, if you have any clue, and bb tells me that you've more than a single one of those. Get out there occasionally regardless. I love Brad's advice up there...hey, maybe you should send them the recording without any comment and then not go back to the session and find out from friends who still go what happens. *snicker*
"Nice." Oh, are you going to be disappointed when you meet me come August. Nice, I am not. I am friendly, talkative and easy to talk to, helpful (my former fiance, which is partially why he's "former", used to say that I am helpful to a fault), and giving, but "nice" I am not. I'm more like Alice Roosevelt. "If you don't have anything nice to say, come sit by me."
You know, the funny thing is, Mandocaster, is that I was (trying to) do chords to "The College Groves" because it is one of my favourite tunes, but I've never actually learnt to play the tune itself. I know it's got to be the next tune on my list to learn (as in playing the actual melody) and hopefully it won't have any negative associations for me when I eventually learn to play it!
Its the journey thats important ive been travelling T?M for 40 years
" Eliminate the negative, accentuate the positive and dont mess with Mr in between" OH YEAH"
Dow, the music scene in my home-town is bitchier than most. If it's any consolation, I have heard someone bitch about nearly every player I know at one time or another or be told to their face that they're not liked. I remember overhearing someone quite loudly criticise my bodhran playing in pretty blunt terms. Luckily the girl he was talking to had the guts to disagree.It's not pretty, it's not nice but it seems to be almost unavoidable, especially when you get inflated egos in the mix. My advice - ignore it and carry on.You were evidently enjoying yourself a lot more than these bitter souls and maybe they just couldn't stand to see that.
Zina--I like what your mom said when you were a kid--"Not everyone will like you, and that was just fine, because otherwise you'd have no time to yourself." I have to remember to use that bit of wisdom on my neice who is always bemoaning her lack of wild popularity.
Doesn't sound like our session at all. We are not particulary good, we just enjoy ourselves and try not to make mistakes at same time as someone else! I've never heard anyone talk behind anothers back. Any really good musician would never bitch about someone else's playing, they know how hard the path to success is and we all start off knowing nothing, whoever we are.
Think I'll weigh in on this one. Dow, if it's just general sniping then screw 'em. Take the constructive aspect of their observations and disregard the rest. Good musicians who've no professional outlet are usually frustrated on some level and create a 'clique-ee-ness' based on their abilities in the 'natural' and a lack of fulfilment in the 'spiritual' if you will. It stings. I know 'exactly' how you feel. I've been in the music business for most of my adult life and am not everyone's cup of tea. Tough sh*t. I belong here. So, make room 'cause I ain't goin' away. That's the attitude to take. Yeah it hurts, but 'fake it 'til you make it' and you'll be fine. The only thing 'you' owe anyone is to play the music with as much heart and truth as you can. The technical snafu's can be improved with time, discipline and dedication. Character takes longer, but it sounds to me from reading the posts here you're substantially ahead of the game.
As subject of some bitching online in another area of the web a few days ago, I'm just ading my tuppence worth of support. Must have been a real shock to hear the comments made by others. But unless someone's prepared to make comments to your face, then they're de facto invalid!
What pisses me off most about the mentality of such people is that it's so far removed from the type of experience I had as a child, growing up among people who loved to play music or sing for the crack of it. Because the session culture hadn't really kicked off to the extent that it has today, there was no suggestion of competitiveness. Everybody played what they could, as well or as badly as they could - and if they couldn't play or sing, people had a "recimitation" or a tall tale or something to keep the crack going. Even if someone was unlistenably bad, it didn't matter to the assembly. All that mattered was that he or she were prepared to share their talent - however astounding or meagre - with their friends and relations.
Things have, of course, moved on. But whereas, thankfully a degree of "professionalism" (with a small "p") has replaced the naivete of the type of musical gathering I described above, in its wake has come the sort of bitchiness and snobbish criticism you've experienced.
I hope you've got the strength of will to rise above it! At the end of the day, what do the carpers know? They're just people like ourselves. They may think that they're the ultimate arbiters of talent and taste, but they've got a think coming!
Do what you enjoy doing and do it as well as you can. If you're reasonably happy that you're on the right lines, then the begrudgers can take a jump!
Whilst all the above about listening to the criticism may be correct, to survive in the music biz, you have to play to entertain yourself and sod the others. You also have to have a thick skin (and head to match).
Personally, I would play one of the recordings back to the others in the session as a warning to what some of them get up to. Rally the troops!
How about sitting next to them at the next session with the minidisc record light very much on display?.
Mark, I should have included one caveat in my advice about "Are you contributing to the other players having a good time? Are you having fun?" Just remember that some people will *refuse* to have a good time, not matter how good the times are. They're not your responsibility--no one can help the poor muggles.
My point is that if everyone comes to the session with the attitude that they can contribute to the overall crack and music, then everyone is more likely to have a good time. In musical terms, it's the difference between the player who's desperate to play his favorite tune versus the player who considers which tunes to play as a way of including people who's repertoire might be more limited than others. You can often gauge what kind of a session you're in (and the size of the egos involved) by watching for this very difference. At "friendly" sessions, people make an effort (sometimes simply by playing the "appropriate" tunes) to be inclusive. At competitive sessions, the big-ego players will choose tunes with the intent of excluding "lesser" players.
I've found, in general, either by my own experience, or 2nd hand, that the really good players are very nice decent people, but it's the ones who are a couple of levels down, who think they're good, or have something to prove, who are the pains in the posterior. The very good players don't have to prove anything, so that frees them up to be decent people. I've found this in my 2 other major areas of activity also, athletics and science.
Hmmm. I have to say, it has not been my experience that the really top level players don't have anything bad to say about other players. They just generally don't do it where other people might overhear, and they're generally far more circumspect, unless drunk or something. They're generally quite glad that people love the music so much, glad that they're doing something better than watching the television (as one top notch player told me), but that doesn't mean that they want to be there playing with them. The really top level players have more class (or perhaps I mean more experience with getting caught) and generally don't display this behavior for all to see, but they're still human beings complete with foibles.
What convinces me that Dow has nothing to worry about is his reaction to a really unpleasant, icky situation -- how on earth do I react to this positively? What do I learn out of this? Other than standing up to the asses of the world (and sometimes you best do that silently), the only thing you can have real effect on, the only person you can change, is yourself. (It's also worth remembering that sometimes that big A for Ass is written on our own foreheads.) Mark, you obviously have what it takes to get somewhere. Screw the rest. Someday they'll be begging to play with you and you won't have to if you don't want to.
It's fun to make fun of other players, but we should *never* do this when there's a digital recorder running... i mean, never criticize someone to their backs when they might hear of it. It's probably not to criticize at all. On the other hand, it's good to develop some thickness of skin, because asses are everywhere. I was heckled and made fun of relentlessly when i was beginning. I expect that fiddlers get the worst of this, since it takes longer for them to develop their sound.
Mark Twain said that he would never join any club that would have someone like him as a member. I'm very aware that my session mates have defficiencies (heck, a couple of them even play the bodhran), but if it was meant to be a session for perfect musicians only, they would have to keep me away too.
I bow to your wider experience in this Zina. Although I did preface my remark by saying "either by my own experience....." etc. I'm sure, as you indicate, they learn, as part of their professionalism, to become more cagey.
Let's just hope these two guys have read this thread and are sufficiently shamed not to repeat their behaviour.
You know, I only just remembered, Brad once quoted a player of his acquaintance somewhere back along the old threads, and I should have thought of it immediately, something along the lines of, I've gotten more about the the hard knocks, the insults and criticisms than I ever got out of people being nice about my playing. I think it's admirable beyond words that Mark took this tack and that others also recommended that approach. It's true, but it's also a terribly tough row to hoe. Good on ya, Mark.
When I saw this thread start up yesterday I said to myself "Oh No. Here we go." That was when there were only three replies. I thought I'd better lay low and keep out of this one.
I was not surprised to find, when I logged on this morning, that there were 67 !! replies in one day. Oh well, here goes. (I promise that I will end this post on a positive note, intended for all, but aimed specifically at Dow
I guess to start I will quote the inspector in "Casablanca".
"I am shocked, shocked that there is gambling (bitchiness) going on in this establishment!" Of course he then quietly asks a busboy to go and cash in all his chips.
I must be living on another planet. At the sessions I attend (several a week, all very 'competitive') negative comments are always made about musicians' playing, as are positive comments. It's human nature to make positive comments to the musicians' face and to make negative comments behind their back. Sure it's uncomfortable if you happen to overhear, or hear about, negative comments about your playing, but Jeez, it's not that big of a deal.
Some of the posts made, however well intentioned, border on being delusional.
"Any really good musician would never bitch about someone else's playing." What!!??
"Anyone who talks about someone else in such a negative way is lacking in self-esteem, no matter their ability, as well as lacking in love and respect for themselves and for others."
Someone else referred to these people as "bitter souls".
The idea that "this sort of thing is out of place in a session" is really sort of naive. I mean a session isn't school, it's not church, It's a group of very diverse people (diverse in personalities, ethnicity, income level, musical aptitude, whatever) gathered at a public drinking establishment to pursue one common interest, that is ITM. Nobody takes the Hippocratic Oath, nor an oath of loyalty.
That being said, it's a mistake to assume that criticism of one's playing is a rejection of you as a person.
I would point out that in 99% of the instances that I have witnessed negative comments being made about a musician's playing (and indeed cases where I have made those same negative comments) the comments are referring to the musician's playing only and are not an indictment of the player as a person.
Indeed, at the sessions that I attend there are always players attending that have beened slagged, usually behind their back, but that are welcomed because they are really very nice people and enjoyable to be around. It's a mistake to assume that criticism of one's playing is a rejection of you as a person, and it's also a mistake to let your judgement of a person be guided by how they react to your playing.
Dow, you commented that "you're going to find yourself playing with people you don't like". If the reason that you might not like them is because they have indicated they don't like your playing (either to you, or behind your back), I would think that is not constructive. Do you only like people if you like their playing?? Or do you only like people who like your playing?? I am sure you would answer "no" to both those questions.
You also indicated (in a much later post) that "it was my first time at that session so I was feeling a bit self-conscious anyway". It led me to a very different view in my own mind as to what the situation actually was. Then you posted that "You know, the funny thing is, Mandocaster, is that I was (trying to) do chords to "The College Groves" because it is one of my favourite tunes, but I've never actually learnt to play the tune itself."
So you come in to a new (for you) session, sit down as a backer, and attempt to play tunes that you don't know!!??OOPS!! Bad move. What did you expect? You cooked up a recipe for disaster.
Session Ettiquette 101: Don't play tunes you don't know. You haven't done anything that everyone of us hasn't done at some time and we all most certainly suffered the same consequences. The only difference is that you overheard the consequences.
As for your future approach to this event, I feel it would be a mistake to "confront" the players in question. Too antagonisitic, frought with too many unpredictable outcomes. If they are players who you respect as musicians, I would try and solicit their comments and advice about your playing, not letting on that you have them on the recording. They may be very helpful, or not. If they are not musicians that you respect (once again as musicians) I'd just forget about the whole thing.
Someone posted that you need to have a thick skin, and a thick head, to survive (and I would say, thrive) in the session experience. Your fellow members at TheSession all know you have a thick head Just go right back to that session and start working on that body callous.
Will Harmon (normally a voice of reason) mentioned that he "would rather play with a bunch of happy-go-lucky rank beginners than the competitive sort, no matter how talented, any time." I would argue that if you don't constantly try and play with musicians much better than yourself you only stunt your own growth. Just don't confuse your comparitive musicianship with your own self-worth.
There is a world famous, extremely talented, fabulous player here in Chicago that is generally not welcome at any venue because he is belligerent and occasionally dangerous. People don't like 'him'. It's not a reflection of his playing. There are also dozens of poor, mediocre and not so great players that are always welcome because they are fine people. And over the years those fine people become better and better players.
Tusong, when you say:
"There is a world famous, extremely talented, fabulous player here in Chicago that is generally not welcome at any venue because he is belligerent and occasionally dangerous. People don't like 'him'. It's not a reflection of his playing. There are also dozens of poor, mediocre and not so great players that are always welcome because they are fine people. And over the years those fine people become better and better players."
That's what I mean when I say I'd rather play with happy-go-lucky beginners--they do eventually get to be better musicians, plus they're fun to hang out with. I've also been fortunate enough to play with some fantastic musicians who also happen to be happy go lucky and not competitive. So the option of playing with competitive ego-mongerers, regardless of how good they are, rates pretty low on my list. I've done it, on occasion, when those Hindenberg's of talent "stooped" briefly to play with me, and I almost always picked up some new musical ideas to try--and some social notions to file away under "How NOT to behave in public."
In the end, after 20 years of playing this stuff, I am happier at a friendly slow session of people just learning the music than I am at a slug fest of musical one-upmanship among giants. And I am happiest of all among a bunch of friendly, laid back giants just enjoying the tunes and one another's company. One of the things that attracted me to this music early on was how humble and down to earth and generous most of the best players are. I still find them that way, and I think it's as important to model that behavior as it is to learn their music.
Everything else you said rings true, though--sessions can be a bit like rugby or ice hockey: all in good fun, but no shortage of slagging and worse. And I think it's wise to glean from the criticisms what you can (when someone leans into the circle impersonating a conductor to signal a single beat for six wandering players, it's funny, but it's also an accurate assessment), and in the end, take none of it too personally.
In an orchestra the only person allowed a public ego is the conductor - for a very good reason. The conductor is the performer of the music (in more ways than one) and his chosen "instrument" to play is the orchestra - an entity, I am informed, that is only slightly more complex and difficult to play than the uillean pipes. A player who exhibits a noticeable amount of ego in opposition to the conductor may very well find himself sitting in the audience at the next concert. A conductor lacking the requisite amount of ego, personality, assertiveness, call it what you will, will quickly find that his "instrument" does not play as intended and that its constituent parts mysteriously now have a will of their own. Such conductors aren't around for very long.
In the orchestras I play in, if a player isn't up to scratch the matter is invariably dealt with quietly in private by the conductor, usually with the assistance of the player's section leader, and with the aim of helping the player concerned, if possible. I've never known a player to be denigrated publicly for his playing. Of course, this doesn't prevent any self-respecting conductor from running through his extensive repertoire of "viola" jokes during rehearsals!
A session is not an orchestra. It may even have a leader, but doesn't have a conductor. In a session, anyone who's good enough can have as much ego as the other players will tollerate.
Hmmm...reading Tusong's post again, I'd have to disagree with a few points. I don't think you need to "constantly" seek out better players to acheive personal musical growth. In fact, I think you can grow a lot just on your own potential and ambition. Especially if those better players take joy in denegrating you, behind your back or otherwise. Also, it's possible to learn from musicians of nearly any caliber, if you're open to it. Now, I'm *not* arguing against hanging out with better players--obviously that can be a great help. But I'd say you're better off finding a better player who's also a decent human being. They're not rare, and life is sweeter when you don't have to haul your self esteem out of the garbage disposal every week.
Also, I'm not sure that playing at sessions has to be about constant, continuous "growth." Sure, we'd all like to continue improving and learning, and that probably happens whether you want it to or not. But it's also acceptable to coast a while. We're amateurs, playing for our own enjoyment. We don't have to prove anything to anyone, and we don't have to pass increasingly difficult exams every 3 years to remain certified for session status on pain of banishment. Some of us have busy lives and we can't always be learning 5 new tunes a week and honing that wicked set of reels and morphing into some Frankie-Martin-Kevin-Tommy-Ciaran uber fiddler. Frankly, that's a big reason I enjoy sessions so much--once you reach a certain level of playing, you don't have to "rehearse" to sit in. There's no meter running at the recording studio or a paying audience demanding your perfection. If you wonk a few notes, no one has any right to jump down your throat or print a derogatory review in tomorrow's paper. And if you train wreck entirely, you can just stop and let the rest of the train roll right along. It can be *enough* just to enjoy playing the old tunes among friends. When they really are friends, they don't think less of you as a musician or person when you're off your stuff a little. They just smile and keep playing, ready to extend the benefit of the doubt because maybe you put in overtime that week, or you've just survived a family crisis, or your wrist hasn't recovered from the bicycle accident yet, or the sixth pint is starting to affect your timing and so what anyway because they've been there themselves and there are other weeks, past and future, that bring mighty sessions full of just stellar, brilliant music that makes your hair stand up, and it'll come around again in due time so relax and enjoy your glass.
The more I think about this, isn't it about time we quit putting up with the stereotype of the mouthy, ill tempered, fisticuff-prone Irish? Hasn't that caused enough trouble already?
To not expect criticism, egos and negativity at a session may be "naive," but to accept it as "normal" is just bizarre to my sense of what a good session can be. Kinda like Jeremy's rules here: Be Civil. Good lord, how about, "Be nice to each other and have fun."??!! You'll notice that since we can't all pack up and leave when someone behaves like an idiot here, Jeremy shows *them* the door. And the rest of us get to go along with our online party.
if there is a dissonance here it's between what we should expect from ourselves versus what we can expect from others. It's ok (and some will say it's good) to hold ourselves to a high standard of politeness and helping others, but it's unrealistic to hold other musicians in a session to the same standard. Sometimes "pack up and leave" is the only thing we can do, but most of us will put up with a lot of abuse before we do that, as long as we're having fun playing music. By not expecting too much of other musicians and developing an appropriately thick skin, we may be able to have more fun than if we were to blow up every time somebody behaved badly.
By the way, this online group doesn't compare well to a real session, at all! It's like a "session" that goes on forever and people join then go home then join again later, but there's no music being played, just a lot of talking. From time to time, someone will show off a CD's liner notes (recordings section) or a page of sheet music (tunes section), and then people then talk about these items too. Because there's no music being played here, it's easy to get tangled in some discussion thing or bite some piece of trolling bait and just lose all the fun here. It happened to me several times.
Not sure I agree entirely with that, Glauber -- to me a session is mainly about the crack, hanging out with friends, not necessarily the music, which is great fun, admittedly. But everyone goes to sessions for different things.
I mean, I go bowling once a week with friends. It's like, our excuse for getting together, making stupid jokes, and drinking really cheap awful beer.
Glauber
I was showing how situations similar to what Dow encountered can be handled in a different musical context. Sessions don't have a conductor, of course, but they often have a de facto leader who may well have an authority similar to that of a conductor, but doesn't do quite the same sort of things. And not all orchestras necessarily have conductors; some of the smaller chamber ensembles work with a leader (who of course wields the necessary authority), and then you're getting something that's closer to the ceilidh band on stage. In Britain there's even a professional chamber orchestra of about a dozen players with a leader who do their concerts from memory. The tradition is still there!
No one will judge you here on your playing. Just your words.
A session should be about music and social interaction. More emphasis on the music. Someone who likes a session just for shootin' the breeze, is usually matched by their mediocre playing. There are few things I dislike more than so called "musicians" going to a session for the drink and not the music. This bugs the hell out of me. Any good player I've met, is more interested in the music and doesn't get distracted by food, drink, or even table dancers. It is a disservice to not take this music and its amazing culture and history seriously. Also, this whole thing about treating "The Session" like a real session is foolish. This is simply an online community which shares thoughts, ideas, information, and tunes about traditional music. Nothing more, nothing less. It's time we seperate cyberspace from real space. Get a grip.
Trevor, i still don't see how a session compares to an orchestra. An orchestra is a very organized thing, a session is mostly anarchy, with leadership being mostly accidental and temporary. But maybe the sessions in England are more organized.
On the other hand, i think i understand what you're trying to communicate, that groups develop certain mechanisms to contain and resolve conflict.
In my defence I never said that I would be "playing with people I don't like", although in retrospect I may have implied it. I was actually quoting bb and what she'd said at a session about an unrelated incident that I had just thought was a cool thing to say. The way I look at it is: I can't really "not like" these people because I don't actually know them very well (although I have to say I wasn't very impressed at the time).
As for "The College Groves", I think I mentioned that it is "one of my favourite tunes". I have listened to it countless times on CDs and at sessions, and so I know it in my head and could sing it to you fairly accurately. What I meant by not having learnt it was just that - I've never sat down and learnt where my fingers have to go. I've always thought that "knowing it well in your head" was enough for a backer. Otherwise a backer in a session would have to learn each player's repertoire note for note; don't you think that's a rather unrealistic expectation? Having said that, I have already mentioned that somebody else thought my playing was crap, so it is natural for you to make assumptions and pick faults with my etiquette, self-consciousness at a new session etc, and I take it all on board - thank you.
Tusong 200, something about the tone of your post and your assessment of this discussion makes me wonder whether you are feeling guilty for having slagged of a fellow musician or two???? Well, I think we're all guilty of that, but perhaps the good thing about this thread is that it will make people *think* about how their comments would affect a person if they were able to overhear them for some reason. It certainly made me think!
Really Glauber, you can't hear the music here? Gee, the rest of us are having a grand time. Oooops, here comes the turn on College Groves again....
If you and Aiki read my post more carefully you'll see that I'm trying to say that some of our real world sessions would be better off if they were a bit more like this cyberspace session ([begin sarcasm] *thank you* Aiki for clearing up that distinction I somehow missed...[end sarcasm] my "grip" is just fine, thank you)--If they were a little less tolerant of uncivil behavior. Just because soccer matches developed a "tradition" of violent riots among the fans doesn't mean society has to accept or condone that behavior. Just because some sessions tolerate brawling drunks and character assassins doesn't mean they *should* tolerate such behavior and that the rest of us are thin-skinned pansies or clueless mediocre musicians (apparently some of us remain clueless despite being quite advanced players just because we prefer sessions of a friendlier slant.
I know a guy who's a great hockey player. But he doesn't play in the A tier league in our town. Instead, he's down a notch or two, in a fun little recreational league that's not too competitive. His reason? He doesn't like all the fighting that errupts in the A league. "That's part of hockey and always will be," he says, "But I get enough of that on the job. I play hockey for fun." I guarantee you that he's *not* thin-skinned or mediocre. This guy's a 6-foot 4-inch, 220-pound, black belt Federal Marshall. And I'd say that he has his priorities in the right place (but who am I to argue with a 220-pound black belt with a license to arrest people?).
Why should it be any different at sessions? Case in point: Aiki, to say that anyone in this discussion isn't taking the tradition and culture seriously strikes me as rude, arrogant, and a cheap debate tactic that usually backfires. That's like labeling war protesters unpatriotic without first listening to their reasons (we have plenty of that going on right now ). There's a difference between a good-natured slagging and simply insulting someone, and you've crossed the line with no justification I can see or basis to make such judgments. Your indiscretion is spoiling our fun...please mind your manners.
Is that so hard? Are some people so intent on being disagreeable that they'll cling to their right to be that way even when asked politely to stop? Even when they're spoiling the very fun they came to partake of? I hope not.
Aiki, I don't know where you go to sessions but it sounds like you take them a bit too seriously. As far as I , and many Irish musicians, are concerned Sessions are as much about the craic as the music. I've been to many a sesson where the slagging and fun was so good, very few tunes were played and everyone went home happy. I have rarely enjoyed a session where there was non-stop music and very little chat. Maybe you need to "get a grip" or at least loosen up a little yourself.
Couldn't agree more with the last posting -- must be our common "Norn Iron" background. All I can say is, Aiki, that you definitely would not like one or two of the sessions I used to play back home. Hangers-on, mouths, breeze-shooters, eejits, boozers, porter-sharks and good musicians were all very welcome indeed as long as they contributed to the craic. In fact some of the regular punters contributed nothing but distraction from the music and very entertaining it was too. Tunes did usually get played, but that wasn't necessarily the whole point of the session. Sometimes the tunes are literally merely accompaniment to the general carry-on. A good discussion thread might be the perceived differences between session culture in Ireland, the USA and elsewhere. Having a foot in both Ireland and the US, I would say that there is often too much music at the US session and not enough craic, at least as I know it.
LongNote, I hope both your feet are coming to Montana this August. You'd be more than welcome, and there will be no shortage of craic, punctuated by a few good tunes.
You know, I think I am guilty myself of taking sessions too seriously as well. And I have been very nervous to go to any sessions other than the one super-laid back one that I occasionally attend. When Dow first posted this discussion, it rang warning bells with me--as if to say--"See? that's why it's just safer to stay home and play until you get "good enough" (the kind of "good enough" which is mythical, unreachable." I am still scared--but maybe if I take the whole thing less seriously, it will make it easier. Do you guys agree with that?
Andee, I suppose it depends on the session as to whether or not you'll enjoy it once you've joined in. It may be worthwhile scoping the session from a vantage point (the bar!) to see if it's populated by the kind of people you'll get on with. Then see if you can join in - which is another thread in itself!
If you don't plan to take the session deadly serious, just ensure that you're playing with like-minded people and not the session-robots that we all encounter from time to time.
This is an amazing post to follow. I really appreciate all the candor & points of view! Here is a krappy thing that happened to me recently regarding 2 sessions in one night, a 'friendly' one & a 'competitive' one, to use Will's nomenclature.
First I went to a publicly scheduled session where a flute & guitar player were rocking out, just the 2 of them. Eventually they asked me to join them, & I held up pretty well. A few other musicians started to trickle into the pub, & the flute player starts hastily packing up, making some pretty rude comments about these new players, & telling me the 'real' session is down the street. These new players were the sweetest beginners, & I had such a great time. I knew every single tune, could back every song, I felt totally confident & the craic was superb.
I did eventually mosey to the other pub, & the music there was literally world class. I played what tunes I could, but struggled overall. I'm pretty sure that flute player who slagged the beginner session is now slagging me as well. The only thing that redeemed the night was the incredible fiddle player (who plays encores with the Chieftains when they tour in town) came up after & hugged me & said I played beautifully. Whether she was just being polite or stretching the truth, that was truly world class of her. Even if the other players are slagging me, that one gesture of encouragement meant so much to me.
The moral is, I don't know, but as a beginner, I do feel like I need to be pushed out of my comfort zone, but also feel sometimes I need to know how far I have come. Andee at the very least, go to that Sunday night session as a research project for me darnit! You know I"m coming on the 23rd of Feb! I bought a mini-disc recorder too, so put me near the slagging end of the table!
It's been an eye-opener to have read this thread from it's beginning. Read the first post and knew it was going to be a good one. Would recommend setting up a separate heading just for it. Others will benefit. It's both an education of 'session culture' and an encouragement to beginning/intermediate players. It brings to mind two distinctly different experiences I had when in Wales a few years ago re sessions. Had purchased a mandolin in Dublin before taking the ferry across to Holyhead. Though I've played professionally for over 20 years, blah, blah, blah as a guitarist I'd never taken the time to really learn another instrument. Was on a bike tour and the mando seemed a good fit. A few days after I'd landed went to a 'session' in Bangor. The pub was called the 'Tap and Spile'. Didn't know anything about 'sessions' except the 'jam sessions' and 'pickin' parties' I'd been to in my jazz and bluegrass days. Knew a few 'Irish' tunes, but basically was a neophyte celtic player. The only skills I could bring were as a rhythm player. When I didn't know the chord changes I would dampen the strings and keep a pulse going percussively. Most of the players in attendence were polite and encouraging. There was one guy who while being a great flautist was a complete a**hole. He made a couple of comments about my playing and as we shared a name took me to task for the 'Americanized' spelling. A total prick. There was a sweet older gentlemen, a harmonica player who would start a song when things died down a little. Everytime, instead of either not playing or playing something complimentary T.A.(the a**hole)would blow right over top of this other guy and start another tune. This happened a number of times to different people by T.A. It occurred to me very quickly that it's a matter of personal character and responsibility each of brings to the session situation and I 'chose' not to respond in kind. Things could have gotten ugly rather quickly. Being secure in my abilities in my 'real' profession as a songwriter I felt sorry for T.A. that he would be so contrary in what I thought was a social situation. Had an opportunity to go back to Wales and at a session in Conwy at the Malt Loaf(they'd stopped the one at the T & S)one of the players at the session mentioned above remembered me and made a point of telling me how emarrassed he was and T.A. was a pariah and unwelcome at sessions in general. He gave me a ride back to my digs and we had a nice conversation about music, etc. On the same tour had an opportunity to attend a 'slow session' at the Cambrian Hotel in Aberystwyth run by a man named Peter. He was elfin, funny, playful and passionate about music. A wonderful spirit. In the same session was a great songwriter/guitarist named Brian Williams. He, selflessly gave pointers and encouragement to the 'rhythm' players. We had an occasion to hang out and drink a few pints over the next couple of days and his skills as a guitarist were formidable and world-class. Yet, his attachment to his abilities remained humble and confident. These personal recollections are offered in the spirit of showing examples of situations we 'all' face from time to time in musical situations as we progress in our abilities. Most are good and some are painful, but I'd prefer the 2nd example, myself. By virtue of his humility Brian showed me how much I 'didn't' know and in pursuit of this type of music, how much I had to learn. And he didn't say a word, he just played. T.A.(s) at the end of the table would do well to follow his example. As far as 'bitter souls' I can only point to an adult lifetime of session/gig/road work as a vocalist, writer, guitarist, etc. to substantiate my perspective on good/great players in 'non-paying' situations, such as an Irish/celtic pub session. 'Frustration' on some level is 'the' common thread running through 'all' of the people I've met in my work/play arena who are 'snipers and backbiters'. Those secure in their abilities and fulfilled in their lives don't bother. There are comments made about me years ago still echoing in my spirit. It's my choice whether or not to empower them and I chose to not. At the risk of sounding pollyanna, Dow the posting of your experience will benefit a number of people who've taken the step to learn how to play an instrument in their adult lives. Thanks for you courage. Most of us would've taken the hit, felt sorry for ourselves and never gone back to the session in question. Go back and play your butt off, you're a class act.
Don't get your standpoint on "bitter souls"; I'm being nosey 'cos it's me who said it before! It sounds like you've got a great session scene where you are, keep us informed, as Wales doesn't get that much press here unfortunately. I'm in Bristol next week so I'm hoping for an education when I finally get to Cardiff.
Hehe. It's a sad day. Unfortunately, many of you will never understand. That is unfortunate to you and you alone. Will, I didn't even read your previous post. I simply posted my views on the subject. Don't start playing Big Brother, either. I don't need YOU to tell me what to say or think. I enjoy a good joke as well as the next person. But, I take certain things in life very seriously and that is why I have been so successful in the things that I do.
We should all strive for excellence in our lives and our playing. Is that so much to ask? Are people that apathetic? Don't we owe it to ourselves and the tradition as representatives? Come, come now. Not all of you can be happy with how you play. Why not make it better? A beginner must get out of the 'comfort zone' to become an intermediate, etc. Push the limits. Believe you can play like the best of them. You will get there only if you are commited. Whining and saying boo-hoo won't get you anywhere. Strive to be the best. I welcome a session with commited beginners. But, if you're just there to screw around, forget it.
Congratulations on a, so far, very successful life, Aiki. Glad you see yourself as a "representative of the tradition", I'm just in it for the craic. For your info, some of the breeze-shooting mediocrities who attended sessions with me over the years have included Dermot McLaughlin, Martin McGinley, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, the late Frankie Kennedy, John McSherry, Reverend Gary Hastings, Father Seamus Quinn, Marcus O Murchu, Joe McHugh, Desi Wilkinson, Desi Adams, Tommy O Sullivan, Manus McGuire, Ciaran Curran, Fintan McManus, Andy Dixon, Deirdre Shannon, Ciaran Carson, Davey Maguire, Gerry O'Donnell etc etc etc. Sometimes we played a lot, sometimes we drank a lot, we certainly always talked a lot at the sessions.If you ever get to Ireland, I think your equation "talks and drinks a lot at session = mediocre player" will be one of your less successful efforts. I talk a lot and drink a lot at sessions and I am a damn good flute-player. And there are many more like me.
Give it up, LongNote, Aiki's clearly a tosser and the only recourse we have at this point is to ignore everything s/he says. But it was nice of you to try and educate the poor thing in the tradition.
I will give it up but not before I contribute an apt anecdote from Kevin Burke, seeing that Aiki has just posted Laington's (for which I thank him/her) from Kevin's recording. Burke told me he was once asked to adjudicate the fiddle competitions at a fleadh. As he was ensconced in a nice wee pub and it was a fleadh, Kevin, not unreasonably, decided that, seeing as there were plenty of good fiddlers in town for the craic, if he didn't show up, then someone else would get the job and the fee. So he stayed right where he was. Later, a very angry Comhaltas representative of the tradition tracked Kevin down to the pub and indignantly declared in front on the crowd "There you sit, Burke. That's all you're good for, smokin', drinkin' and talkin' s***e." As Kevin commented, "And the poor silly bastard thought he was insulting me!"
Don't be so hard on poor ol' Aiki. I think s/he's just modeling--for all our benefit and enlightenment--the kind of behavior Mark (Dow) started this thread about in the first place. One of those serious, masterful musicians who takes that as license to act like...well, like Aiki. Brilliant interpretation of the issue at hand, really. I think they call it "method acting." Couldn't imagine doing it better myself....
LongNote, some day we're gonna deduce your secret (but famous) identity. Keep telling us who you've played with, and sooner or later we'll narrow it down to the one missing, outrageous flute player, and we'll know. If I figure it out first, I'll not tell...
Oh, I've been playing that game for quite some time now, Will. Let's see -- outrageous, outspoken flute player living in the States who likes to swear, drink, talk, play a few and start all over again...yes, that narrows it down quite a bit...NOT. I thought I had LongNote when s/he mentioned the name of the group s/he played in, but so far have not been able to track that one down yet (of course, I haven't really set out to truly try, so LongNote may have uttered the kiss of death to his/her secret identity with that one still, if I ever get truly motivated to go track the reference down in my copious free time).
Hey thanks Zina, you've inadvertently helped me beat my personal record of "number of hits for a discussion"! If you keep on bickering I might make a world record
When I began this thread I was expecting a few people to write in with similar stories to mine. Instead there was a flood of emotion-laden posts and in-fighting in the space of only a few hours. Jeremy what a superb website. Yay!
Bickering! I never bicker, I go straight for the jugular or nothing. *grin*
That's a nice way to go thanking all these nice people who felt so sorry for you, go ahead, make fun of them, see what it gets you next time. *snort* Tch tch tch, Dow. It'll soon be another set of bruises for you, see if it isn't.
Oh but Zina, don't you just love the emotion-laden stuff? And people arguing with each other - I mean, why else would you go online? I'm not making fun of them - everyone's sound. And incidentally, I am sure that by now, bb has arranged for a gang of baseball-bat-wielding yobs to nab me on a darkened street corner in an obscure Sydney suburb very soon!
It won't be after Prime Minister John Howard's finished with it
Hey Jeremy, you'll be so glad I'm not going to print what I think of that man - it would send a shockwave through the internet.
In my short experience going to sessions I've been lucky so far that none of the bitching I've heard has been related directly to me. This is possibly because I've never pretended to be anything other than a rank amateur, and because given my level of ability, it's sometimes hard from the outside to tell a tune I know cold from (the occasional) one I'm just picking up at a session. (They all sound so much better in my family room!) However, I have heard a few people -- one in particular that I can think of -- belittling other players at a series of sessions. Most of the comments related to use or lack of use of ornamentation, or ability or lack of same to maintain a consistent rhythm. The comments I heard did initially make me a little queasy, and wondering what they might be saying about me outside of my earshot. On the other hand, the same bitchy person kept encouraging me to go to sessions, even sessions where it was obvious I was deeeeep over my head. And this person never to my knowledge sniped to anyone about my lack of skill.
At this point if I overheard snide comments about my playing I might take that as a compliment... that I had moved up from the ranks of hopeless to the level of "fair game."
When I was in high school singing in church choir an adult member once cornered me after a service and told me that I was "too aggressive." Despite not knowing what the heck this woman meant exactly, the comment totally floored me, and really colored my experience of the choir, the church, and organized religion in general. I more or less dropped out of all three, and it took me about 20 years to rediscover them. In retrospect, I wish I'd had the guts to say "the hell with it" and just kept on enjoying myself. I think those 20 years would have been better if I had.
I hope this experience isn't going to keep you from going to sessions. It's a shame to see one or two people's small mindedness having such a negative impact on an innocent bystander.
OK Dow, FWIW 100+ posts later, I once played as a “casual” in someone else’s group for a function where uncomplimentary audience commentary was caught by the group’s video camera, which was set up near a dinner table. It’s a bit different to your situation in that the comments weren’t from musicians, weren’t about me personally, and were made at a gig rather than a session.
At least half of what the audience complained about were things that any intelligent person could see were unsatisfactory. Even the musical problems they commented on, when translated from “non-muso speak” were spot on, which the group couldn’t help but realise if they’d listened openly as suggested early in this thread. Their reaction though, was educational and illustrated why the problems had occurred in the first place - they laughed and basically said, “What would these ignoramuses know – they’re not musicians and they’ve got no idea what’s involved or what they’re talking about, so we'll just ignore everything they've said.”
The lesson I learned is that you treat the audience as “the great unwashed” at your own peril. There was no repeat business or good press out of this gig. A Famous Composer (Mozart, maybe?) once said something along the lines that a person doesn’t need to understand why he is delighted in order to *be* delighted. I learned from this tape that the converse is also true - a non-musician is often able to recognise a below-par performance for exactly what it is, even if they don't have the tools to analyse it in musicians' terms.
I "use the experience in a positive way" by reminding myself of it when tempted to cut corners or become complacent.
Ok - this is starting to annoy me now - you all know I think your brilliant - BUT - how on earth do you know that these people are a) bitter, b) bad musicians c) horrible d) mean spirited e) not in it for the tunes etc, etc, etc - none of you know them....I know the people in sydney - they arent mean spiteful or bad musicians. They have their own taste - everyone is different. Loads of you know what players I love and dont love. Not everyone is going to like your playing Dow.! It doesnt mean you have to give up. Plenty of people *do* like it and enjoy you being in the session. Sorry if I shock anyone here - Ive been in situations where people really have wrecked session for me, maybe being ignorant about tunes and stuff - oh and shoot me dead right now....maybe I said something to someone in confidence about it. Sorry - I'm human and I find it *really, really* bloody difficult to believe that 99% of you on this site havent ever said you didnt like this film/tune/musician/cake - how self riteous! And before you guys say anything to me I know these people we are talking about - and there are no spiteful players in sydney. And as much as I love you greenwiggle - how would you know? Youve not been to *one* session that I frequent regularly since Ive been back which is six months. And Aiki - cop on - your session sound dead boring. I was at a session the other night - we had a right laugh and probably half the night was spent slagging and joking! It was great fun. So as Tish now knows - sydney is not full of mean spirited horrible and spiteful players. And Dow - I will bop you on the nose if you stop coming to sessions.
I know everyone's not going to like my playing - God I'd be a right arrogant git if I did think so. I think we'd all admit that we've slagged off a fellow musician at some point. I'm sure I've said that somewhere in the last few posts (see above). I don't think anyone is seriously having a go at the Sydney people - this has been more of an objective, general thread talking about people's experiences of being slagged off and how people dealt with it. This isn't about "me", bb. And it's certainly not about you so there's no need to get all defensive. I haven't pointed the finger at you have I?
However, it's one thing to make a couple of negative comments about someone's playing within earshot, quite another to have half the players at the session slag you off in a group conversation. I think I mentioned that it wasn't just through the one tune, it was bad vibes and comments for the whole duration of the session, which peaked during "The College Groves". Like I said, I only heard it when I edited the minidisc. The thing that I found most galling was that after the session I *clearly* remember saying positive comments to each of those same musicians like "you're an excellent player - you should be in a band", and "thanks, I've really enjoyed playing with you tonight". Those are probably my exact words because I remember the conversations so well.
bb look me in the eye and tell me that if that happened to you at a Sydney session it wouldn't affect your view of it. I'm absolutely determined now not to let this upset me after everyone's written in with their own stories and words of encouragement. I don't want it to upset you either.
Are you sure it was half the session? Maybe I'm just oblivious - I dont get those 'bad vibes'. And I'm glad its not upsetting you. I wasnt meaning the last post be directed at you anyhow. I was really just asking why most people were being so self righteous as we are all humans etc. And trust me when I say that if half the session said that about your playing, then the other half didnt. So I really hope you decided to come back for tunes, I certainly really missed having you there on sat. You know sunday - I wouldnt have been able to hear you even if you were there
you are dead right bb...I haven't been to *one* of your regular haunts/session since you've been back. I can see from Dows experience that it hasn't changed since the last time I was there, so why bother?
No need to be upset. There are plenty of opportunities elsewhere for good people who play and dance and sing and drink and entertain and enjoy themselves
Sorry Zina!!!!
OK Bb, I apologise for not putting myself in the line of fire more often. I'll be going out tonight to play some tunes...maybe I'll see you there?
A friend just mentioned to me that this thread and original discussion is very one-sided. So if you know of any of the miscreants responsible, maybe you could convince them to put across their "side of the story"? to put a bit of balance to the thread. Maybe they already know about it?
Anyway, keep on playing music and having fun everyone!
There is another side of this (not that I know any of the parties involved), which is that frankly, some people are a**holes. This may or may not affect their ability to play good music, in sessions or anywhere else. For example, I've played a few sessions over the last 15 years with a guy who is a respected(AFAIK) fiddle player, has been a professional musician blah blah blah, and seems like an ok guy. He has almost never failed to comment disparagingly about my playing on these occasions, to the point where I once swore I'd never play with him again. But after talking it over with a mutual friend, I've come to the conclusion that he's actually trying to be encouraging, but just doesn't have the conversational skills or whatever to communicate successfully with other players. I also might be a teeny bit sensitive from time to time...
I've also played in a band with someone that I had no time for, mostly on a personal level (see the comment above about treating audiences with respect), but with whom I shared a solid musical relationship for many years -- and not without some backbiting on my part, I might add.
Just to point out that lots of musicians are people who may have chosen to emphasize musical development over practicing their social skills, and that you don't always have to like them in order to play music with them. Granted, this is easier said than done. Also, a large percentage of a**holes don't have much to offer musically either.
I just looked at this thread again and was astonished to see that it has collected recent posts even though it has disappeared onto the second page. Greg, I don't know how to view these people really, all I know is I'm going to try hard not to let the incident tarnish my view of the music and sessions in general. I wish it didn't have to be a case of "playing music with people whether you like them or not". All I want to do is to go to the pub, have a few beers and play some nice tunes with other people who want to go to the pub, have a few beers and play some nice tunes. I can't be done with the politics, and want to avoid that side of it, now that I realise there's no point in fighting against it since it will always exist.
Bitch!
Bitch!
Made you look
I was listening to a minidisc recording of a session the other day, and I suddenly realised that, because the quality of the recording was really good, I could hear a conversation taking place at the other end of the table from where I had been sitting. These people's voices could be heard even above the music and loud pub chatter in the background. Then I realised that they were making nasty, bitchy comments about my playing. This continued for 3 times through "The College Groves". You can hear almost every word. I'm all for constructive criticism where it's due, but this was just bitchiness. The thing that most upsets me about it I think is that I have only ever had words of praise for these same people, whether it be to their faces or behind their backs. I'm trying very hard not to let it get me down, but have never felt so negative about Irish music ever before, and I almost feel like giving up altogether. At a session I am pretty quiet I suppose, and I never start a tune set unless I am asked. I haven't been playing Irish music all that long so I'm a beginner as far as Irish stuff is concerned, and I realise that there are a lot of faults in my playing - I totally admit that, but I feel as though I'm spending a lot of time trying my best to do justice to the brilliant players around me through my own playing, and it's crushing to hear that it's all in vain. Has anyone else had similar experiences with a recording or just overhearing people inadvertently? How did you use the experience in a positive way?
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
...or saying it right to your face!
How you use criticism positively depends, of course, on what they said. "The guy can't count" or "Man, is he loud!" are probably believable, fairly objective critiques, and the remedies, if not easy, are at least easily understood. I can imagine it would be disheartening to hear it, but at least it's useful.
If the criticisms were more subjective -- "The man thinks he's a damned jazz player!" -- you can either try to change to please them or not, obviously.
And if they were neither constructive nor entirely subjective but more like, well, general bitchiness, maybe they didn't like the way you parked your car outside or you dress funny or something, and what can you do?
I had someone tell me the other day some things about my playing that weren't flattering. It stung, but I started trying to think of it objectively, and I found myself agreeing. In fact, I've received some pretty sound advice recently -- from you, Dow, in fact, as well as from some others, all of which makes me realize my critic was right, and that I've got to keep struggling.
If it were easy, everybody would be doing it, right?
In any case, don't assume any of it is in vain. It all is, of course, but don't let yourself believe it.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Bitch!
You're right and speak a lot of sense - thanks. I think I'm maybe just worried about feeling self-conscious and seizing up in future sessions or something. I'll have a good think about what you've said...
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Another reason to stick to the old tape recorder.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by glauber
Re: Bitch!
Yep, Through the fuzz of the good old analogue tape recorder you can't hear people bitching about your playing, but if you hear somebody bitching aboubt your playing for bitching's sake, turn 'round and ask them just what they can fault your playing for and better still, ask how in there oppinion you could improve your playing. (They can't stand this) And if you get a very rude response indicating that you should leave their session, find another session where you are appriciated
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dafydd Monks
some responses will include things like "Well Bu******er off then, If that's what you get, just go somewhere else
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dafydd Monks
Re: Bitch!
Listen to the conversation one more time. Is there anything, anything at all, they are saying that you think may be valid? If so, work hard to improve on it. When finished, erase the whole effin thing, tunes and all. Just get over it and get on with it. For many people the music is a competitive, exclusive environment. You will never defeat elitism, but you can't allow it to defeat you either.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by LongNote
Re: Don't let the bastards wear you down....
Ditto what LongNote says. For some people, music is all about pecking order and status. For the rest of us, it's about having fun together making enjoyable noise. I would rather play with a bunch of happy-go-lucky rank beginners than the competitive sort, no matter how talented, any time.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bitch!
Oh, screw 'em, Dow! I wouldn't even try to look at it as "constructive criticism" if they don't have the nerve to tell it to your face. Egos seem to get in the way of too many sessions. Sessions are a learning and sharing experience...it shouldn't matter so much how well someone can play. I'm an advanced player, but I find myself seeking out a certain kind of session...one without egos. When you find one of these sessions, they're usually more intermediate and slower going, but it's always a nice change from some of the more cutthroat sessions I play in. Don't even waste a second of your time worrying about those people...we play because we love it, not because it should matter to other people.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by irishfiddler32
Re: Bitch!
"...we play because we love it, not because it should matter to other people."
That's it, in a nutshell.
Granted, another musician may want to talk to you about your volume or intonation or sense of timing, but this can be done in a friendly, helpful way, preferably in private. Blame yourself if you don't get the hint or heed the advice when it's accurate and well aimed. But blame the messenger when it's done in spite, with cruelty, or out of ego.
What it boils down to for me is: listen to yourself. Are you contributing to the other players having a good time? Are you having fun? If the answers are yes, you're doing fine. If either answer is no, you either need to practice more at home or find a different session. Otherwise, ignore the eejits and grab a seat.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bitch!
Hey it did make me look
It's a funny thing about playing music... it's a very personal yet social activity and criticism of any kind always hurts a little but it is how we get over it that keeps us going. No matter what... don't let it take the music from you, that's even worse. Signed... been there 
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by ANNY
Re: Bitch!
Mark, I know we have our disagreements on a range of topics and quite heated arguments about everything and nothing.
I cannot give you solace or comfort on this one. I truly wish I could. I find myself nearing apoplexy when I consider who the inbred jumped up self important little cretins might be. No-one in the "Irish Traditional Dance Music" session scene in Sydney has an ounce of the nouse that you have shown in the short time that you have been here.You have more talent and class in the little finger on your left hand than they could ever aspire to.
There is only criticism and jealousy hiding in the hearts of those who would make smartasred comments about another player.
I have been guilty of slagging off in my time on this planet. But I believe that everyone has something to say and if you wish to receive respect then you should be willing to open your heart and
accept people as they are and LISTEN to what they have to "say".
I have been at sessions, where everything is going "swimmingly" and then watched the reactions on some people's faces when a beginner summons up enough courage and decides to dive into the deep end and start a tune. The smug looks make me want to vomit and make me wonder why I am sitting with these people.
It must be very easy for them to forget how excrutiating it was for themselves as a novice.I have heard people rubbish instruments because they don't fall into their enforced line of "what makes a good session". I am sick to death of hearing people say that that tune is crap - it has nothing going for it - its not traditional.
I want to hear that recording Mark-just so I can identify for certain who the bastards are, so that I don't go to jail for killing the wrong person.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
Thanks Greenwiggle, those were very um strong words! The thing is, it's a bit like what Cuchulain54, LongNote and Will etc were saying - that they did have valid points, and they're extremely talented musicians (God I'm still being nice about them...), it was just that the thing that bothered me was the "behind the back" aspect of it. Except they were only the other side of the table and I feel a bit like: "you have *such* a nerve" - do you know what I mean? If they'd approached me and said it all to my face I would have accepted it as constructive criticism immediately and been grateful. But they were like right there - talking in fairly loud voices so that people in general could hear and also while I was actually playing and enjoying the music. I have such a lot to learn and I am working every day on improving on my weaknesses, and I've also booked tickets for workshops with my favourite players this year. I suppose I can't really do more than that. Now I'm torn between seeking out a different session and trying to forget it, or alternatively just to put up with the bitching and try and improve as best I can. Maybe I just need a rest...
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Sorry Dow...wake up to yerself and stop apologising for them. It was not only rude, but demeaning.You may be a novice-in your own understanding, but not to my ears. These people have shown contempt and a lack of "tolerance"(for want of a better word) and respect for fellow musicians. After all, isn't that what sets us apart from the herd? Shouldn't the love and passion for music encompass all?
You might as well say that thesession is just a forum for people to complain about their own likes and dislikes without them performing an introspection about why they don't like the way one person sounds different or plays in a different setting or key or style or manner or on a "different" instrument or why they cannot "grasp" their own shortcomings.
I don't really think that and I know you don't. So before anyone jumps up and down on my corpse let me say thank you to everyone who CONTRIBUTES to this site and especially Jeremy for wading through our onlinesubconcious' and providing such a wonderful and INVALUABLE resource.
I know who the session mongrels are now from my own deductions and investigations and sadly I am not surprised as these people think that they are the very big fish in a small pond. I have nothing but contempt for these idiots who think that they are the "real" musicians.
Get a life boys and girls in Sydney. There is a defintie smell of dirty undies in the air.
It's not about how good you are on your instruments, or where you were born...
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
As my gran used to say, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." You probably won't teach them kindness or manners, but you can put them in their place. If you were an awful but sincere musician (and I doubt the "awful" part completely), there are tactful ways of helping. You certainly weren't the fool here. Anyone who heard them and is any sort of decent folk knows them for what they are...idiots. You buck up, hold your head high and go on. The only ones who made public fools of themselves were the jerks--not you.
If they are just mean-spirited, what's wrong with looking them in their faces and being as loud in your questioning of their *kind* critiques? Surely everyone there would benefit more from their embarrassed blush than yours. "I'm sorry, I couldn't help but overhearing your kind constructive criticisms while I was playing. I have always admired your playing, and said so to everyone, even behind your backs. I'd really like to learn. I'm trying to improve here, and I know that of course, you're only trying to help me by saying my rolls 'suck' so that I and everyone else can hear you. What is it about my rolls that 'sucks'?" Be sure to quote their ugliest words for all to hear.
They should be ashamed of themselves! How grade-school! If I were burning bridges I wouldn't need to cross again, I'd end it with something like, "I thought you were ladies, and you think I'm pathetic at this. Apparently, we were both mistaken. By the way, do you kiss your babies with that filthy mouth?" and walk away. Let them think on that and be speechless. I believe they should be just as mortified by their behavior as you were by their comments. I'm sorry, but I'd find a different session. Music should be a positive experience, and if they don't handle it that way, find a session that does. Don't let them take your joy or your enthusiasm. It's what makes music live.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: Bitch!
You've been there before as well haven't you?
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
hmmm...a transcript of the comments with no names...only the comments to hand out entitled: "Session Etiquette: What to do...NOT!"
I'm feeling rather testy today.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: Bitch!
I Think that no matter how high you go in music, there are still people above you somewhere. you send these barstards to wales. me and my classical mates will pull THEIR playing to pieces! Dont give up your music, just don't even get sad in the smallest way. If you do they've already won. Confront them next time you see them, and ask them just what their Bloody ideas are. Putting down a fellow musicians music. This is ITM, we should support and include EVERYONE Not just good musicians who think they're the top of the heap, So cheer up, smile, and don't let it get to you. If the worst comes to the worst, and they are still makeing behind your back comments, change session.
:->
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dafydd Monks
Re: Bitch!
Depending on whether you want to continue working with them, maybe one way to bring something positive out of it is to ensure they don’t do it to somebody else in future.
Like katie (I was actually typing this while she was posting) I am wondering whether it is worth telling them their conversation was accidentally caught on disc, that constructive comments would have been welcomed face-to-face but this sort of thing is out of place in a session, and that they should mind their tongues in future lest they be responsible for someone less thick-skinned giving up altogether? Maybe they’re not worth the effort or the potential aggro; maybe they’d have the good grace to be embarrassed and mend their ways.
This “rang a bell” for me today. I’m currently struggling with a paying gig where I have (for long and complicated reasons) to fit a young person into the group whose playing skills are NOT the skills required for the job. I’m tearing my hair out… but the youngster is trying hard, hasn’t had the instrument out of the case for years and it’s the first bit of interest they’ve shown in ages. Everyone’s fingers are crossed that the bug will bite and music will be back on the agenda, because there's clearly talent there. I’m SOOOO conscious of being constructive and helpful every inch of the way because I'm their first contact with music for yonks and don’t want to be the one who makes them put their axe back in the cupboard for good. This player would actually go very well in a trad/folk group and I’m going to suggest it after the gig. What happens if someone like this cops what Dow overheard? And if you can be constructive under stress for a public gig, what’s wrong with these people at a voluntary fun thing in a pub?
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Tish
No...not in a session at least...*yet*. lol I just hate jerks. I'm a mean tiger for the underdog.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by katiebythegate
LOL...I just told my whistle friend. She says send 'em her way...she'll "pluck 'em bald-headed!"
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by katiebythegate
Re: Bitch!
You go Katie!! I agree with everything you have put forward. It is hard enough to find a pub in Sydney where you can have a session. There are about three to four. The majority of them occur at the same time on a Sunday evening. So Dow has a limited choice there I am afraid. Some people may think that the "standard is not high" at one of them, but I personally would rather go to that one- where people enjoy themselves and have a good time playing music and drinkin and dancin and having fun. Rather than playing esoteric tunes and discussing the latest CDs or name dropping and the like.Taking themselves FAR 2 seriously for their own good.
Yes, it is easy to spot a fellow victim of "session abuse". As a survivor I propose that we form a self support group and lynch the noisy bastards who continue to backbite and sledge newcomers and people who approach the music from a different angle/level of competence
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
Here's a motto that will take you far in life, and one that I try to live by: Never, ever take anything personally. Stuff like that should glide off your back like duckwater (or something). I wouldn't even bother to try to find useful tidbits in there. Forget about it. You'll never know what their motives were for being tactless. Maybe they were drunk. Maybe they didn't see the microphone in front of them. Maybe their panties were on too tight. Maybe they weren't talking about you. Maybe they KNEW you were taping them and thought it would be funny to give you an earful. If anything they said about your playing had any validity, someone else will tell you in a much more useful way eventually, providing you with some opportunity for dialogue. Trust me. I had to hear "slow down" about six billion times before I finally got the message (or TRIED to get the message.) Don't automatically assume malicious intent. Try to give them and yourself the benefit of the doubt by thinking up something simple that makes you happy to believe. Don't stop going to the session either. Eventually these things are forgotten.
And remember: The wonderful thing about sucking completely is that everyone notices when you improve.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Kerri Brown
Re: Bitch!
Sounds like a Jenny Jones topic -- "When Seisiuns Go Sour!" Dow, we'll bring you out first, the crowd will be on your side (we'll all have bought advance tix), bring out the perpetrators who will be booed into humiliation & submission... a panel of arbitrators featuring Will Harmon, katiebythegate,cuchulain54, greenwiggle, et al. shall attempt to mend the wounds... then a rousing craic over the closing credits.
I would say 'no throwing chairs', but that would be sinking to their level. Don't worry, next time around, they'll be in bottom of your tequila bottle.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Bitch!
Something bb said at a session the other day has stuck in my mind. I was discussing a sort of similar unpleasant but unrelated incident, and she said "sometimes you take a knock and it hurts, but you've just got to grit your teeth and keep going - you're going to find yourself playing with people you don't like sometimes but battling it won't get you anywhere" or something to that effect. Sorry if I've misquoted you there bb, but I thought it was quite a cool thing to say anyway.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Additionally, I find a lot of solace in the poetry of Rumi. Two quotes I turn to are these: "The soul is here for its own joy." & "It makes absolutely no difference what ppl think of you."
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Bitch!
I can sort of see the irony in the fact that I was trying to get a really good recording of a totally wicked session with a full-on minidisc playeeeer... stereo microphooooone blah blah blah, and instead I pick up people bitching about me in the corner. It's quite funny really now I think about it...
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Goddamn greenwiggle, cop on!!! I do think that the people that dow are talking about are of the 'all tunes are good it depends how you play them variety' So instead of insulting just about every single one of my friends why dont you bloody find out who you are talking about. I personally love backing, I think sessions are lost without it and Dow has great chords. Ive had people say the most goddam awful things behind my back and to my face & yet - I would NEVER be as insulting to everyone in the entire sydney scene as you just have. And for your information greenwiggle - there are plenty of talented musicians in sydney, how bout Benno and Peter just to name two !!!
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Bitch!
bb please don't make this into a fight between you and greenwiggle pleeeeeeeease. Oh god I wish I hadn't started this thread now.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
BB don't make me get up. I wasn't insulting you personally, just the people you choose to play with at times.I know it wasn't you who made these comments to Dow and you may think and say what you like about me. It may make me angry but I'll get over it. Just because you drink and play in a pub session that I am sledging does not mean that I am attacking you or your talent.
If you take everything so seriously, how do you ever enjoy yourself?There are more talented musicians living in Sydney than those who attend the cramped and confined conditions in pubs. You and I both know that. But I will not sit by tuning my fiddle while others are laying into my friend with unjust criticism because they think they play music better than he does. I can see by your spirited response that you feel as protective about your friends.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
I didnt make it into a fight if you'll notice - I wasnt the one who insulted the entire music scene in sydney!
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Bitch!
And where did I do that bb?
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
Wow! this thread's brought out some pretty strong emotions - and rightfully so!
Dow - when you said you were doing "the College Groves" at the time my first thought was:
-how dare they be giving out to you for even attempting such a cracking reel.
Anyway, a few pot shots have been aimed at me in my time, cos I tend, these days, to play the so called [bitchily] Typewriter (AKA silver flute), because (spookily enough, related to two other ongoing threads - Aidan's and Andy's - both music friends of mine) I've got that wrist RSI due to excessive computer mouse abuse, which is exacerbated considerably, due to the extra stretch, by blackwood flute playing (and maybe also cos my quiet blackwood flute can't compete with 3 banjos [sorry Andy - NOT being bitchy - honest]).
Unless you're really crap, which I doubt, because you're plugged into this site regularly (I'll explain shortly), there is absolutely no justification for the kind of s**t you had to listen to.
I reckon (this is my theory - probably totally wrong) it was two players who have known each other for long enough to have established a musical rapport on a certain number of tunes, but don't want their boat rocked by some upstart Pommie, but who also don't know each other well enough to have the confidence in their relationship to disagree, and give you the credit where it was due.
In which case, you were merely the recipient of their negative vibes. Don't get phased by music-saddos.
The alternative scenario is that they are the paid players who were worried that the standard would drop for the three minutes you did your thaing and all the customers would vanish, and they wouldn't be invited back, in which case, their session, and its organisation, is less than robust. Hence their paranoia, translated into bitchiness.
But some form or another of bitchiness, or competitiveness is inherent in our game. The trick is to know how to play the game, especially when you're playing an away fixture (sometimes home also).
Back to the being crap bit. I'm always bitching about bodhrans, spoons, singers, etc., but unless they spend a number of years getting to grips with their instruments, the required tunes/beats, whatever, then they will always be fair game. Unless a person is a Bodhran Player, as outlined in greenwiggle's thread, they are a bodhran beater. This species is easily distinguished by lower educational attainment, short attention span, and a preoccupation with making loud noises bereft of any discernible pattern. They are thus fair game for bitchiness. They also have zero computer or social skills, so don't worry, you don't and never will, fall into that category.
It's tough launching out on a new instrument in a session, even a year or two after the maiden voyage. I know. Just keep doing it. You'll make less mistakes as you go, then, who knows where the time goes, you're accepted.
In the words of Douglas Adams:
DON'T PANIC
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Alf Tupper
No Greenwiggle - I was not defending my 'friends' I consider Dow a friend and defend him as well, what I was getting so hett up about was this comment of yours
'No-one in the "Irish Traditional Dance Music" session scene in Sydney has an ounce of the nouse that you have shown in the short time that you have been here.You have more talent and class in the little finger on your left hand than they could ever aspire to.' Which makes you just as bad as them.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Bitch!
I'm outa here before the bottles start flying! Where's my coat?
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by milesnagopaleen
Re: Bitch!
And don't forget: The exchange of insults is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels,welsh harp tunes and other insults.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by milesnagopaleen
Re: Bitch!
That's True!
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dafydd Monks
Re: Bitch!
Domhniall, thanks.
bb - aaaaarrrrrrgh! Please stop fighting with Greenwiggle - you're both lovely and hearing you lash out is making me feel really bad for starting this thread. I must insist that the people on said recording were extremely talented musicians and have probs been playing for heaps longer than me I don't know - I only started backing January 1999 so I've got a long way to go. As a player who listens to recordings to myself often, I am fully aware of *exactly* what my weaknesses (and strengths) are. What bothered me about the whole incident was that the bitching was intermittent throughout the session from beginning to end, actually, not just through the one tune, and also it was my first time at that session so I was feeling a bit self-conscious anyway. I want to try and use the comments constructively and positively instead of getting depressed about it and... like that's all I was really writing about today, just to get some advice from people who have had similar experiences.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Well bb, I do know who made those comments. I stick by my words of encouragement to Dow. I truly believe that this cittern playing fool has an appreciation and TALENT for whatever he plays that leaves me in awe. He is wasted as a backer-for although increasingly competent he is an outstanding melody man. But people are not giving him the respect that they themselves demand.Being better at something than someone else does not automatically make you a better person. I know that you seem to take this discussion personally bb-and that is a credit to your courage. But don't tell me to cop on. I'm not the one insulting people.Yes. I think the "session scene" in Sydney leaves a lot to be desired. I can make this call because in the past I have set up sessions around town in the last 10 years. I havve seen publicans with little desire to foster the music. Only two or three publicans have cared.I have watched the good players come and go, and the disheartened take flight in the face of comments such as Dow captured.If you can't say anything good...say nowt.Take it easy now bb...
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
Dow, make the offending commenters listen to their commentary. Don't feel bad about making them listen to it either. Believe me they will shudder for the rest of their lives at the memory of how ackward & shameful they felt when you played it back to them (you have the option of faking crying to really rub it in). Two wrongs don't make a right, but sometimes they help negate each other a little bit.Otherwise take Longnote's advice on the whole affair. Take the good, ditch the bad, get on with life & for god's sake get rid of that recording asap.
Brad
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Mad Baloney
Re: Bitch!
"The exchange of insults is what keeps traditional irish music alive". Like it, probably a grain of truth in there somewhere too unfortunately. Anyway that's the first thing that made me smile in this thread - I also wish you hadn't started it, dow.
Anyway, can y'all chill out!? BB, greenW is fond
of hyperbole, it's part of his charm, so don't take it too seriously. Besides, if he was really trying to be insulting he would have placed everybody below the talent in the little finger of dow's RIGHT hand.
Any chance of getting a copy of those recordings Dow? I'm thinking I could have some fun with them on the computer, any nice percussive sounding insults that would loop well at 120 bpm?
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by bandjalong
Re: Bitch!
You've been lurking there quietly Banjalong! You cheeky bugga!
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
More watching in horror than lurking, no fun watching friends rip each other's virtual bloody arms off*! Anyway, aren't we all in paid employ at the moment? Back to your real jobs you bitchin' bludgers!
*aussie cultural reference
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by bandjalong
Re: Bitch!
Hyperbole - is that like the Superbowl?
OK...firstly, bb:
I would like to apologise for any insults you may have drawn from my online persona.None were directed at you, and I have the utmost respect for you as a person, a player and a friend. (If this is still possible after this thread
Musicians in Sydney:
I stand by my comments. I am saddened that the session scene would appear to be crippled. Maybe that is just my understanding of the current situation. Jealousy does not come into it on my part, I long ago realised that the ultimate session is the one that you just missed, and everyone tells you it was the best. So what!That's OK. There'll be another one along soon - hopefully ;) I was not deliberately stating that Dow is a better musician than any of you. He does have better manners than some musicians though.If you would like to ask me about my comments next time any of you see me, I'll be happy to buy you a drink and we can sit and talk about what can be done-if anything, to rectify these situations.
If you choose to hold it against me, that is your choice and I will not try to disuade from it.
Dow:
Don't feel guilty for starting this conversation. It is a valid excercise to try and find out if others are affected by the same narrowmindedness that assailed you and to try and take it all in your stride. Talking about it with others can help - even if they hijack the thread.I apologise to you for having to step in between myself and Miss bb.and stop us from my misguided attempts at humour, satire, honesty and a grain of salt.
Cheers.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
Hey I'm not angry - we have always thought very differently from each other. However I can really not see the bitchiness in the scene that you seem to think is there. I know that obviously someone said something upsetting otherwise dow wouldnt have posted, thats the reason I wouldnt mind knowing who it was because I dont know any spiteful musicians around at the moment, If I knew who it was then maybe i would get it into context a bit more. It doesnt seem to me that anyone I play with would sit bitching about someone else - maybe commenting but never in a mean or degrading way. I guess I just need to hear the evidence. Anyhow - thats all I have for now- and as for your comment on Dow being wasted as a backer - Never!! We need good backers, they are few and far between
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Bitch!
Thanks bb...I wasn't sure if you were or not. It is true that we think differently because we do and because we do, we are usually coming at the same intersection from different directions at varying speeds. Sometimes we speed up and krash - other times we obey the "rules" and give each other the right of way and respect that everyone deserves.
As to the identity of said persons I am not at liberty to divulge my information - I think Dow might find it inappropriate to let anyone else know after the way his threads have unravelled.It would probably be best for all concerned if I shut my cybermouth for a while and actually did something constructive
Hopefully, this too shall pass.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
Allright, enough fighting bb and greenw!! I like *both* of you guys and always appreciate your comments normally. So quit it.
Dow--you seem like such a nice person, and one who really respects the music. You are serious about learning and love to play. It breaks my hear to hear how mean these people were to you. Makes me wonder how often it has happened to me unkowingly. Ah, well--the best revenge is success. Keep on loving the music--keep on playing and someday you will blow these miniscule mean-hearted, cold, bitchy people out the back door and into the garbage dumpster with your spectacular playing!!
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Andee
Re: Bitch!
Hello, Dow:
I've been lurking, too, and I hesitate to jump into these muddy waters, but what the heck.
I know it's hurtful to be talked about in a degrading way, but please, try to rise above it. Anyone who talks about someone else in such a negative way is lacking in self-esteem, no matter their ability, as well as lacking in love and respect for themselves and for others. This isn't about you.
It might sound weird, but what if you could talk to them in a nonconfrontational way about what they said? Just sit down and chat with them for a minute or two and then say something like: "Gee, you probably didn't know I was recording last week when we were playing College Groves, and y'all were talking about my playing. I was wondering what you meant by . . . . (fill in the blank, whatever they said). Do you think you could explain it to me? I love ITM so much, and I'm trying to learn, and maybe you could help me."
The key to this, of course, is that you would have to be prepared NOT TO REACT to whatever they said or did; to come at it from a point of genuine curiosity and compassion and trying to figure out what goes on inside other people's heads. You SHOULD NOT try this unless you are 100 PERCENT CERTAIN that you can you can do so without getting upset or flying off the handle.
The point wouldn't really be to ask their advice, but instead to observe their reactions and see what they might have to say, and, possibly, to find out if there might be any common ground. My guess isthat one or more of several things might happen: They might be chastised upon being notified that their unkind comments had been observed. They might be so taken aback that they would cease and desist (this might not apply to you, but to their dealing with other people in the future, in which case you would probably never know about it). They might actually give you some constructive suggestions. They might be so embarrassed that they would flee the session, instead of you having to find another one. More likely, none of these things would happen, but at least you would have the satisfaction of following through on a matter that's important to you and of confronting your own pain and fear.
If you really wanted to get into it, you could (maybe, depending on their reaction to the aforementioned) explain to them (again, as a statement of fact, not in an argumentative way) that they probably have no idea how much anguish their remarks caused. My strong feeling is that most people have no idea how their actions affect other people.
I can say these things because I have been guilty, many times, of glossing over or avoiding something hurtful, and every time, I've wished I had done otherwise. If nothing else, by speaking up, you might cause somebody to think twice before they repeat such an action. Maybe not, but at least you will have done your part.
I know my thoughts are somewhat off the subject of music per se, but that's the way I think. We are all here to experience and love and grow, and I ask the highest blessings for you and for all who are experiencing communion with others and with the divine through music, or through any and all other means.
Carol
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by carolsviolin
Re: Bitch!
Incidently - this going out to Dow, greenwiggle and bb - which Sydney session did this event occur at? I want to go to it, it all sounds terribly exciting...I think we're all far too friendly at the Mean Fiddler session on Wednesday nights. Let me know where this session is, I want to check it out, but only out of morbid curiosity - haha! The Sydney session scene is quite narrow, well, it is for me because I don't live near the city...has anyone tried starting one at Parramatta? Parramatta would be a good place to have a session seeing as it's central to pretty much everywhere as long as you can jump on a train....I rue the day that I was born a Westie...
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by dargs
Jaysus.
You go away and come back and the world's blown up!
Well, this probably doesn't help you much, Mark, but...as it happens, I've been told by a Sydney player that they think you're a really good ("gorgeous" was the word used, although I *think* it was in reference to your playing) backer. So it's not just bad things said behind your back. Heh. (NO, I wasn't checking up on you behind your back, it happened quite naturally when I said I had acquaintances in Sydney's playing community.)
A very VERY good backer of my acquaintance, whose opinion I respect very much in regards to the music and all that surrounds it, once told me that he couldn't stand the accompaniment work of another very good backer, and even said some things that verged more on insulting than personal taste. I blinked mentally, and then went away and listened to the second backer's recordings, trying to figure out what was so awful about his playing. I listened and listened, trying to puzzle it out. Was it chord choices? The way he hit the strings? What? After a few weeks, I went back and outright asked, "Just what the heck is so horrible about his playing? I honestly can't figure it out."
And, distilled down, the answer was, "Well, I just don't like it, is all. Doesn't mean you can't like it if you like, I just don't -- it's a personal thing."
My mother once told me, (a bespectacled, buck-toothed, ugly little kid) that the way life worked was that not everyone would like me, and that was just fine, because otherwise I would have no time for myself. I've tried to remember that, since of course I'd love for everyone to love me madly and passsionately, but I don't think that's going to happen.
But I think Kerri's got it right. And who knows what their problem was. Maybe they have so little self-esteem that they need to find someone to feel more worthwhile than, and so have to tear other people down. Maybe they were trying to avoid getting into an argument themselves and needed to find somebody as a target for the stress in their lives.
It's a shame that now you'll never be able to so much as look at them without remembering what they said, and even worse that, erring on the generous side here, perhaps it didn't even have much to do with you, your playing, and what they honestly thought. Maybe one or both of them is a little afraid of what the other will think of them and so said things they didn't mean, to try and seem knowledgeable and knowing. You just can't and never will, likely, know.
It doesn't really matter, Mark, though it may sting now. The thing that matters is that you're playing what you want to play how you want to play it. We're certainly looking forward to having you here Stateside come August. The other two can't probably say that, now can they?
Zina
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
God all you people are so *nice*!
I was feeling really crappy about this before but now I feel much more positive so I'm glad I posted this after all. I think I'm going to take Will's advice. He said:
"What it boils down to for me is: listen to yourself. Are you contributing to the other players having a good time? Are you having fun? If the answers are yes, you're doing fine. If either answer is no, you either need to practice more at home or find a different session".
My answer is: "No in retrospect I was probably not having a good time because I could sense an atmosphere even then despite the fact that I hadn't heard the recording yet. And no, I was probably spoiling other people's enjoyment, and this can be deduced from the comments on the recording. So I need to practise more at home or find a different session".
I think the other musicians were simply of a higher standard and I was genuinely out of my depth, and because of that I guess it was a good exercise. I shall treat it positively and use it as a reason to practise loads this year and improve my playing. Thanks for all the encouragement.
Mark
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
I live a half a world from Sydney, but I think there are some universal truths.
1. We musicians correlate our self-worth with our self-perceived ability. That is why it hurts to hear negative comments from fellow musicians.
2. If you are feeling down about your ability, remember that no matter how good you are, there is somebody out there that can kick your butt on College Groves, Rawhide, Vivaldi, or whatever.
The moral of the story is to remember that we play because we love to make music.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by mandocaster
Re: Bitch!
Mmm. And now you will have to put up with everyone posting to tell you not to let the bastards win and of course you should go to the session.
Your choice, of course -- you know best for yourself. Just remember that one almost always thinks one is worse than one actually is, if you have any clue, and bb tells me that you've more than a single one of those. Get out there occasionally regardless. I love Brad's advice up there...hey, maybe you should send them the recording without any comment and then not go back to the session and find out from friends who still go what happens. *snicker*
"Nice." Oh, are you going to be disappointed when you meet me come August. Nice, I am not. I am friendly, talkative and easy to talk to, helpful (my former fiance, which is partially why he's "former", used to say that I am helpful to a fault), and giving, but "nice" I am not. I'm more like Alice Roosevelt. "If you don't have anything nice to say, come sit by me."
zls
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
You know, the funny thing is, Mandocaster, is that I was (trying to) do chords to "The College Groves" because it is one of my favourite tunes, but I've never actually learnt to play the tune itself. I know it's got to be the next tune on my list to learn (as in playing the actual melody) and hopefully it won't have any negative associations for me when I eventually learn to play it!
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Its the journey thats important ive been travelling T?M for 40 years
" Eliminate the negative, accentuate the positive and dont mess with Mr in between" OH YEAH"
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Bryan
Re: Bitch!
Dow, the music scene in my home-town is bitchier than most. If it's any consolation, I have heard someone bitch about nearly every player I know at one time or another or be told to their face that they're not liked. I remember overhearing someone quite loudly criticise my bodhran playing in pretty blunt terms. Luckily the girl he was talking to had the guts to disagree.It's not pretty, it's not nice but it seems to be almost unavoidable, especially when you get inflated egos in the mix. My advice - ignore it and carry on.You were evidently enjoying yourself a lot more than these bitter souls and maybe they just couldn't stand to see that.
Conán
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Bitch!
Zina--I like what your mom said when you were a kid--"Not everyone will like you, and that was just fine, because otherwise you'd have no time to yourself." I have to remember to use that bit of wisdom on my neice who is always bemoaning her lack of wild popularity.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Andee
Re: Bitch!
Doesn't sound like our session at all. We are not particulary good, we just enjoy ourselves and try not to make mistakes at same time as someone else! I've never heard anyone talk behind anothers back. Any really good musician would never bitch about someone else's playing, they know how hard the path to success is and we all start off knowing nothing, whoever we are.
Dave
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Daver
Re: Bitch!
Think I'll weigh in on this one. Dow, if it's just general sniping then screw 'em. Take the constructive aspect of their observations and disregard the rest. Good musicians who've no professional outlet are usually frustrated on some level and create a 'clique-ee-ness' based on their abilities in the 'natural' and a lack of fulfilment in the 'spiritual' if you will. It stings. I know 'exactly' how you feel. I've been in the music business for most of my adult life and am not everyone's cup of tea. Tough sh*t. I belong here. So, make room 'cause I ain't goin' away. That's the attitude to take. Yeah it hurts, but 'fake it 'til you make it' and you'll be fine. The only thing 'you' owe anyone is to play the music with as much heart and truth as you can. The technical snafu's can be improved with time, discipline and dedication. Character takes longer, but it sounds to me from reading the posts here you're substantially ahead of the game.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by welshdude
A fig for all my foes ...
Dow ...
As subject of some bitching online in another area of the web a few days ago, I'm just ading my tuppence worth of support. Must have been a real shock to hear the comments made by others. But unless someone's prepared to make comments to your face, then they're de facto invalid!
What pisses me off most about the mentality of such people is that it's so far removed from the type of experience I had as a child, growing up among people who loved to play music or sing for the crack of it. Because the session culture hadn't really kicked off to the extent that it has today, there was no suggestion of competitiveness. Everybody played what they could, as well or as badly as they could - and if they couldn't play or sing, people had a "recimitation" or a tall tale or something to keep the crack going. Even if someone was unlistenably bad, it didn't matter to the assembly. All that mattered was that he or she were prepared to share their talent - however astounding or meagre - with their friends and relations.
Things have, of course, moved on. But whereas, thankfully a degree of "professionalism" (with a small "p") has replaced the naivete of the type of musical gathering I described above, in its wake has come the sort of bitchiness and snobbish criticism you've experienced.
I hope you've got the strength of will to rise above it! At the end of the day, what do the carpers know? They're just people like ourselves. They may think that they're the ultimate arbiters of talent and taste, but they've got a think coming!
Do what you enjoy doing and do it as well as you can. If you're reasonably happy that you're on the right lines, then the begrudgers can take a jump!
Keep the faith.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Bitch!
Whilst all the above about listening to the criticism may be correct, to survive in the music biz, you have to play to entertain yourself and sod the others. You also have to have a thick skin (and head to match).
Personally, I would play one of the recordings back to the others in the session as a warning to what some of them get up to. Rally the troops!
How about sitting next to them at the next session with the minidisc record light very much on display?.
# Posted on February 6th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Bitch!
Mark, I should have included one caveat in my advice about "Are you contributing to the other players having a good time? Are you having fun?" Just remember that some people will *refuse* to have a good time, not matter how good the times are. They're not your responsibility--no one can help the poor muggles.
My point is that if everyone comes to the session with the attitude that they can contribute to the overall crack and music, then everyone is more likely to have a good time. In musical terms, it's the difference between the player who's desperate to play his favorite tune versus the player who considers which tunes to play as a way of including people who's repertoire might be more limited than others. You can often gauge what kind of a session you're in (and the size of the egos involved) by watching for this very difference. At "friendly" sessions, people make an effort (sometimes simply by playing the "appropriate" tunes) to be inclusive. At competitive sessions, the big-ego players will choose tunes with the intent of excluding "lesser" players.
I prefer the friendly types myself.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bitch!
I've found, in general, either by my own experience, or 2nd hand, that the really good players are very nice decent people, but it's the ones who are a couple of levels down, who think they're good, or have something to prove, who are the pains in the posterior. The very good players don't have to prove anything, so that frees them up to be decent people. I've found this in my 2 other major areas of activity also, athletics and science.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Alf Tupper
Re: Bitch!
Hmmm. I have to say, it has not been my experience that the really top level players don't have anything bad to say about other players. They just generally don't do it where other people might overhear, and they're generally far more circumspect, unless drunk or something. They're generally quite glad that people love the music so much, glad that they're doing something better than watching the television (as one top notch player told me), but that doesn't mean that they want to be there playing with them. The really top level players have more class (or perhaps I mean more experience with getting caught) and generally don't display this behavior for all to see, but they're still human beings complete with foibles.
What convinces me that Dow has nothing to worry about is his reaction to a really unpleasant, icky situation -- how on earth do I react to this positively? What do I learn out of this? Other than standing up to the asses of the world (and sometimes you best do that silently), the only thing you can have real effect on, the only person you can change, is yourself. (It's also worth remembering that sometimes that big A for Ass is written on our own foreheads.) Mark, you obviously have what it takes to get somewhere. Screw the rest. Someday they'll be begging to play with you and you won't have to if you don't want to.
Zina
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
It's fun to make fun of other players, but we should *never* do this when there's a digital recorder running... i mean, never criticize someone to their backs when they might hear of it. It's probably not to criticize at all. On the other hand, it's good to develop some thickness of skin, because asses are everywhere. I was heckled and made fun of relentlessly when i was beginning. I expect that fiddlers get the worst of this, since it takes longer for them to develop their sound.
Mark Twain said that he would never join any club that would have someone like him as a member. I'm very aware that my session mates have defficiencies (heck, a couple of them even play the bodhran), but if it was meant to be a session for perfect musicians only, they would have to keep me away too.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by glauber
Re: Bitch!
I bow to your wider experience in this Zina. Although I did preface my remark by saying "either by my own experience....." etc. I'm sure, as you indicate, they learn, as part of their professionalism, to become more cagey.
Let's just hope these two guys have read this thread and are sufficiently shamed not to repeat their behaviour.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Alf Tupper
Re: Bitch!
You know, I only just remembered, Brad once quoted a player of his acquaintance somewhere back along the old threads, and I should have thought of it immediately, something along the lines of, I've gotten more about the the hard knocks, the insults and criticisms than I ever got out of people being nice about my playing. I think it's admirable beyond words that Mark took this tack and that others also recommended that approach. It's true, but it's also a terribly tough row to hoe. Good on ya, Mark.
zls
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Geez, did I type that? I mean "gotten more out of the hard knocks" -- I washed my hands today and can't do a thing with them...
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
When I saw this thread start up yesterday I said to myself "Oh No. Here we go." That was when there were only three replies. I thought I'd better lay low and keep out of this one.
I was not surprised to find, when I logged on this morning, that there were 67 !! replies in one day. Oh well, here goes. (I promise that I will end this post on a positive note, intended for all, but aimed specifically at Dow
I guess to start I will quote the inspector in "Casablanca".
"I am shocked, shocked that there is gambling (bitchiness) going on in this establishment!" Of course he then quietly asks a busboy to go and cash in all his chips.
I must be living on another planet. At the sessions I attend (several a week, all very 'competitive') negative comments are always made about musicians' playing, as are positive comments. It's human nature to make positive comments to the musicians' face and to make negative comments behind their back. Sure it's uncomfortable if you happen to overhear, or hear about, negative comments about your playing, but Jeez, it's not that big of a deal.
Some of the posts made, however well intentioned, border on being delusional.
"Any really good musician would never bitch about someone else's playing." What!!??
"Anyone who talks about someone else in such a negative way is lacking in self-esteem, no matter their ability, as well as lacking in love and respect for themselves and for others."
Someone else referred to these people as "bitter souls".
The idea that "this sort of thing is out of place in a session" is really sort of naive. I mean a session isn't school, it's not church, It's a group of very diverse people (diverse in personalities, ethnicity, income level, musical aptitude, whatever) gathered at a public drinking establishment to pursue one common interest, that is ITM. Nobody takes the Hippocratic Oath, nor an oath of loyalty.
That being said, it's a mistake to assume that criticism of one's playing is a rejection of you as a person.
I would point out that in 99% of the instances that I have witnessed negative comments being made about a musician's playing (and indeed cases where I have made those same negative comments) the comments are referring to the musician's playing only and are not an indictment of the player as a person.
Indeed, at the sessions that I attend there are always players attending that have beened slagged, usually behind their back, but that are welcomed because they are really very nice people and enjoyable to be around. It's a mistake to assume that criticism of one's playing is a rejection of you as a person, and it's also a mistake to let your judgement of a person be guided by how they react to your playing.
Dow, you commented that "you're going to find yourself playing with people you don't like". If the reason that you might not like them is because they have indicated they don't like your playing (either to you, or behind your back), I would think that is not constructive. Do you only like people if you like their playing?? Or do you only like people who like your playing?? I am sure you would answer "no" to both those questions.
You also indicated (in a much later post) that "it was my first time at that session so I was feeling a bit self-conscious anyway". It led me to a very different view in my own mind as to what the situation actually was. Then you posted that "You know, the funny thing is, Mandocaster, is that I was (trying to) do chords to "The College Groves" because it is one of my favourite tunes, but I've never actually learnt to play the tune itself."
So you come in to a new (for you) session, sit down as a backer, and attempt to play tunes that you don't know!!??OOPS!! Bad move. What did you expect? You cooked up a recipe for disaster.
Session Ettiquette 101: Don't play tunes you don't know. You haven't done anything that everyone of us hasn't done at some time and we all most certainly suffered the same consequences. The only difference is that you overheard the consequences.
As for your future approach to this event, I feel it would be a mistake to "confront" the players in question. Too antagonisitic, frought with too many unpredictable outcomes. If they are players who you respect as musicians, I would try and solicit their comments and advice about your playing, not letting on that you have them on the recording. They may be very helpful, or not. If they are not musicians that you respect (once again as musicians) I'd just forget about the whole thing.
Someone posted that you need to have a thick skin, and a thick head, to survive (and I would say, thrive) in the session experience. Your fellow members at TheSession all know you have a thick head
Just go right back to that session and start working on that body callous.
Will Harmon (normally a voice of reason) mentioned that he "would rather play with a bunch of happy-go-lucky rank beginners than the competitive sort, no matter how talented, any time." I would argue that if you don't constantly try and play with musicians much better than yourself you only stunt your own growth. Just don't confuse your comparitive musicianship with your own self-worth.
There is a world famous, extremely talented, fabulous player here in Chicago that is generally not welcome at any venue because he is belligerent and occasionally dangerous. People don't like 'him'. It's not a reflection of his playing. There are also dozens of poor, mediocre and not so great players that are always welcome because they are fine people. And over the years those fine people become better and better players.
Life is tough. Hang in there.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Tusong200
Re: Bitch!
Tusong, when you say:
"There is a world famous, extremely talented, fabulous player here in Chicago that is generally not welcome at any venue because he is belligerent and occasionally dangerous. People don't like 'him'. It's not a reflection of his playing. There are also dozens of poor, mediocre and not so great players that are always welcome because they are fine people. And over the years those fine people become better and better players."
That's what I mean when I say I'd rather play with happy-go-lucky beginners--they do eventually get to be better musicians, plus they're fun to hang out with. I've also been fortunate enough to play with some fantastic musicians who also happen to be happy go lucky and not competitive. So the option of playing with competitive ego-mongerers, regardless of how good they are, rates pretty low on my list. I've done it, on occasion, when those Hindenberg's of talent "stooped" briefly to play with me, and I almost always picked up some new musical ideas to try--and some social notions to file away under "How NOT to behave in public."
In the end, after 20 years of playing this stuff, I am happier at a friendly slow session of people just learning the music than I am at a slug fest of musical one-upmanship among giants. And I am happiest of all among a bunch of friendly, laid back giants just enjoying the tunes and one another's company. One of the things that attracted me to this music early on was how humble and down to earth and generous most of the best players are. I still find them that way, and I think it's as important to model that behavior as it is to learn their music.
Everything else you said rings true, though--sessions can be a bit like rugby or ice hockey: all in good fun, but no shortage of slagging and worse. And I think it's wise to glean from the criticisms what you can (when someone leans into the circle impersonating a conductor to signal a single beat for six wandering players, it's funny, but it's also an accurate assessment), and in the end, take none of it too personally.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bitch!/quote
" I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member" -
Groucho Marx, I believe , glauber, - you sure it was Mark Twain ?
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Kenny
Re: Bitch!
Yes, that's Groucho.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
It was Groucho. Mark Twain was the one who said that you should never make fun of a fiddler when there is a digital recorder running.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by glauber
Re: Bitch!
Is everyone else fair game? Cool, rock on! *grin*
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
Tusong, excellent post; you said it.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by glauber
Re: Bitch!
In an orchestra the only person allowed a public ego is the conductor - for a very good reason. The conductor is the performer of the music (in more ways than one) and his chosen "instrument" to play is the orchestra - an entity, I am informed, that is only slightly more complex and difficult to play than the uillean pipes. A player who exhibits a noticeable amount of ego in opposition to the conductor may very well find himself sitting in the audience at the next concert. A conductor lacking the requisite amount of ego, personality, assertiveness, call it what you will, will quickly find that his "instrument" does not play as intended and that its constituent parts mysteriously now have a will of their own. Such conductors aren't around for very long.
In the orchestras I play in, if a player isn't up to scratch the matter is invariably dealt with quietly in private by the conductor, usually with the assistance of the player's section leader, and with the aim of helping the player concerned, if possible. I've never known a player to be denigrated publicly for his playing. Of course, this doesn't prevent any self-respecting conductor from running through his extensive repertoire of "viola" jokes during rehearsals!
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Bitch!
A session is not an orchestra. It may even have a leader, but doesn't have a conductor. In a session, anyone who's good enough can have as much ego as the other players will tollerate.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by glauber
... as much ego as won't get his ass hauled off outside and whupped.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by glauber
Re: Bitch!
Hmmm...reading Tusong's post again, I'd have to disagree with a few points. I don't think you need to "constantly" seek out better players to acheive personal musical growth. In fact, I think you can grow a lot just on your own potential and ambition. Especially if those better players take joy in denegrating you, behind your back or otherwise. Also, it's possible to learn from musicians of nearly any caliber, if you're open to it. Now, I'm *not* arguing against hanging out with better players--obviously that can be a great help. But I'd say you're better off finding a better player who's also a decent human being. They're not rare, and life is sweeter when you don't have to haul your self esteem out of the garbage disposal every week.
Also, I'm not sure that playing at sessions has to be about constant, continuous "growth." Sure, we'd all like to continue improving and learning, and that probably happens whether you want it to or not. But it's also acceptable to coast a while. We're amateurs, playing for our own enjoyment. We don't have to prove anything to anyone, and we don't have to pass increasingly difficult exams every 3 years to remain certified for session status on pain of banishment. Some of us have busy lives and we can't always be learning 5 new tunes a week and honing that wicked set of reels and morphing into some Frankie-Martin-Kevin-Tommy-Ciaran uber fiddler. Frankly, that's a big reason I enjoy sessions so much--once you reach a certain level of playing, you don't have to "rehearse" to sit in. There's no meter running at the recording studio or a paying audience demanding your perfection. If you wonk a few notes, no one has any right to jump down your throat or print a derogatory review in tomorrow's paper. And if you train wreck entirely, you can just stop and let the rest of the train roll right along. It can be *enough* just to enjoy playing the old tunes among friends. When they really are friends, they don't think less of you as a musician or person when you're off your stuff a little. They just smile and keep playing, ready to extend the benefit of the doubt because maybe you put in overtime that week, or you've just survived a family crisis, or your wrist hasn't recovered from the bicycle accident yet, or the sixth pint is starting to affect your timing and so what anyway because they've been there themselves and there are other weeks, past and future, that bring mighty sessions full of just stellar, brilliant music that makes your hair stand up, and it'll come around again in due time so relax and enjoy your glass.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Will CPT
P.S.
The more I think about this, isn't it about time we quit putting up with the stereotype of the mouthy, ill tempered, fisticuff-prone Irish? Hasn't that caused enough trouble already?
To not expect criticism, egos and negativity at a session may be "naive," but to accept it as "normal" is just bizarre to my sense of what a good session can be. Kinda like Jeremy's rules here: Be Civil. Good lord, how about, "Be nice to each other and have fun."??!! You'll notice that since we can't all pack up and leave when someone behaves like an idiot here, Jeremy shows *them* the door. And the rest of us get to go along with our online party.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bitch!
Will,
if there is a dissonance here it's between what we should expect from ourselves versus what we can expect from others. It's ok (and some will say it's good) to hold ourselves to a high standard of politeness and helping others, but it's unrealistic to hold other musicians in a session to the same standard. Sometimes "pack up and leave" is the only thing we can do, but most of us will put up with a lot of abuse before we do that, as long as we're having fun playing music. By not expecting too much of other musicians and developing an appropriately thick skin, we may be able to have more fun than if we were to blow up every time somebody behaved badly.
By the way, this online group doesn't compare well to a real session, at all! It's like a "session" that goes on forever and people join then go home then join again later, but there's no music being played, just a lot of talking. From time to time, someone will show off a CD's liner notes (recordings section) or a page of sheet music (tunes section), and then people then talk about these items too.
Because there's no music being played here, it's easy to get tangled in some discussion thing or bite some piece of trolling bait and just lose all the fun here. It happened to me several times.
g
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by glauber
Re: Bitch!
Not sure I agree entirely with that, Glauber -- to me a session is mainly about the crack, hanging out with friends, not necessarily the music, which is great fun, admittedly. But everyone goes to sessions for different things.
I mean, I go bowling once a week with friends. It's like, our excuse for getting together, making stupid jokes, and drinking really cheap awful beer.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
Glauber
I was showing how situations similar to what Dow encountered can be handled in a different musical context. Sessions don't have a conductor, of course, but they often have a de facto leader who may well have an authority similar to that of a conductor, but doesn't do quite the same sort of things. And not all orchestras necessarily have conductors; some of the smaller chamber ensembles work with a leader (who of course wields the necessary authority), and then you're getting something that's closer to the ceilidh band on stage. In Britain there's even a professional chamber orchestra of about a dozen players with a leader who do their concerts from memory. The tradition is still there!
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Bitch!
No one will judge you here on your playing. Just your words.
A session should be about music and social interaction. More emphasis on the music. Someone who likes a session just for shootin' the breeze, is usually matched by their mediocre playing. There are few things I dislike more than so called "musicians" going to a session for the drink and not the music. This bugs the hell out of me. Any good player I've met, is more interested in the music and doesn't get distracted by food, drink, or even table dancers. It is a disservice to not take this music and its amazing culture and history seriously. Also, this whole thing about treating "The Session" like a real session is foolish. This is simply an online community which shares thoughts, ideas, information, and tunes about traditional music. Nothing more, nothing less. It's time we seperate cyberspace from real space. Get a grip.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Aiki
Orchestras, etc
Trevor, i still don't see how a session compares to an orchestra. An orchestra is a very organized thing, a session is mostly anarchy, with leadership being mostly accidental and temporary. But maybe the sessions in England are more organized.
On the other hand, i think i understand what you're trying to communicate, that groups develop certain mechanisms to contain and resolve conflict.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by glauber
Re: Bitch!
Aiki, go away.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
To Tusong 200
In my defence I never said that I would be "playing with people I don't like", although in retrospect I may have implied it. I was actually quoting bb and what she'd said at a session about an unrelated incident that I had just thought was a cool thing to say. The way I look at it is: I can't really "not like" these people because I don't actually know them very well (although I have to say I wasn't very impressed at the time).
As for "The College Groves", I think I mentioned that it is "one of my favourite tunes". I have listened to it countless times on CDs and at sessions, and so I know it in my head and could sing it to you fairly accurately. What I meant by not having learnt it was just that - I've never sat down and learnt where my fingers have to go. I've always thought that "knowing it well in your head" was enough for a backer. Otherwise a backer in a session would have to learn each player's repertoire note for note; don't you think that's a rather unrealistic expectation? Having said that, I have already mentioned that somebody else thought my playing was crap, so it is natural for you to make assumptions and pick faults with my etiquette, self-consciousness at a new session etc, and I take it all on board - thank you.
Tusong 200, something about the tone of your post and your assessment of this discussion makes me wonder whether you are feeling guilty for having slagged of a fellow musician or two???? Well, I think we're all guilty of that, but perhaps the good thing about this thread is that it will make people *think* about how their comments would affect a person if they were able to overhear them for some reason. It certainly made me think!
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Dow
Gosh Aiki that sounded awfully like you implying strongly that Zina's playing is mediocre. I hope you didn't mean to say that ',:-|
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Really Glauber, you can't hear the music here? Gee, the rest of us are having a grand time. Oooops, here comes the turn on College Groves again....
If you and Aiki read my post more carefully you'll see that I'm trying to say that some of our real world sessions would be better off if they were a bit more like this cyberspace session ([begin sarcasm] *thank you* Aiki for clearing up that distinction I somehow missed...[end sarcasm] my "grip" is just fine, thank you)--If they were a little less tolerant of uncivil behavior. Just because soccer matches developed a "tradition" of violent riots among the fans doesn't mean society has to accept or condone that behavior. Just because some sessions tolerate brawling drunks and character assassins doesn't mean they *should* tolerate such behavior and that the rest of us are thin-skinned pansies or clueless mediocre musicians (apparently some of us remain clueless despite being quite advanced players
just because we prefer sessions of a friendlier slant.
I know a guy who's a great hockey player. But he doesn't play in the A tier league in our town. Instead, he's down a notch or two, in a fun little recreational league that's not too competitive. His reason? He doesn't like all the fighting that errupts in the A league. "That's part of hockey and always will be," he says, "But I get enough of that on the job. I play hockey for fun." I guarantee you that he's *not* thin-skinned or mediocre. This guy's a 6-foot 4-inch, 220-pound, black belt Federal Marshall. And I'd say that he has his priorities in the right place (but who am I to argue with a 220-pound black belt with a license to arrest people?).
Why should it be any different at sessions? Case in point: Aiki, to say that anyone in this discussion isn't taking the tradition and culture seriously strikes me as rude, arrogant, and a cheap debate tactic that usually backfires. That's like labeling war protesters unpatriotic without first listening to their reasons (we have plenty of that going on right now
). There's a difference between a good-natured slagging and simply insulting someone, and you've crossed the line with no justification I can see or basis to make such judgments. Your indiscretion is spoiling our fun...please mind your manners.
Is that so hard? Are some people so intent on being disagreeable that they'll cling to their right to be that way even when asked politely to stop? Even when they're spoiling the very fun they came to partake of? I hope not.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bitch!
Aiki, I don't know where you go to sessions but it sounds like you take them a bit too seriously. As far as I , and many Irish musicians, are concerned Sessions are as much about the craic as the music. I've been to many a sesson where the slagging and fun was so good, very few tunes were played and everyone went home happy. I have rarely enjoyed a session where there was non-stop music and very little chat. Maybe you need to "get a grip" or at least loosen up a little yourself.
Conán
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Bitch!
Couldn't agree more with the last posting -- must be our common "Norn Iron" background. All I can say is, Aiki, that you definitely would not like one or two of the sessions I used to play back home. Hangers-on, mouths, breeze-shooters, eejits, boozers, porter-sharks and good musicians were all very welcome indeed as long as they contributed to the craic. In fact some of the regular punters contributed nothing but distraction from the music and very entertaining it was too. Tunes did usually get played, but that wasn't necessarily the whole point of the session. Sometimes the tunes are literally merely accompaniment to the general carry-on. A good discussion thread might be the perceived differences between session culture in Ireland, the USA and elsewhere. Having a foot in both Ireland and the US, I would say that there is often too much music at the US session and not enough craic, at least as I know it.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by LongNote
Re: Bitch!
LongNote, I hope both your feet are coming to Montana this August. You'd be more than welcome, and there will be no shortage of craic, punctuated by a few good tunes.
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bitch!
You know, I think I am guilty myself of taking sessions too seriously as well. And I have been very nervous to go to any sessions other than the one super-laid back one that I occasionally attend. When Dow first posted this discussion, it rang warning bells with me--as if to say--"See? that's why it's just safer to stay home and play until you get "good enough" (the kind of "good enough" which is mythical, unreachable." I am still scared--but maybe if I take the whole thing less seriously, it will make it easier. Do you guys agree with that?
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Andee
Re: Bitch!
Andee, I suppose it depends on the session as to whether or not you'll enjoy it once you've joined in. It may be worthwhile scoping the session from a vantage point (the bar!) to see if it's populated by the kind of people you'll get on with. Then see if you can join in - which is another thread in itself!
If you don't plan to take the session deadly serious, just ensure that you're playing with like-minded people and not the session-robots that we all encounter from time to time.
All the hairy chest
Conán
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Friendly, competitive & the comfort zone
This is an amazing post to follow. I really appreciate all the candor & points of view! Here is a krappy thing that happened to me recently regarding 2 sessions in one night, a 'friendly' one & a 'competitive' one, to use Will's nomenclature.
First I went to a publicly scheduled session where a flute & guitar player were rocking out, just the 2 of them. Eventually they asked me to join them, & I held up pretty well. A few other musicians started to trickle into the pub, & the flute player starts hastily packing up, making some pretty rude comments about these new players, & telling me the 'real' session is down the street. These new players were the sweetest beginners, & I had such a great time. I knew every single tune, could back every song, I felt totally confident & the craic was superb.
I did eventually mosey to the other pub, & the music there was literally world class. I played what tunes I could, but struggled overall. I'm pretty sure that flute player who slagged the beginner session is now slagging me as well. The only thing that redeemed the night was the incredible fiddle player (who plays encores with the Chieftains when they tour in town) came up after & hugged me & said I played beautifully. Whether she was just being polite or stretching the truth, that was truly world class of her. Even if the other players are slagging me, that one gesture of encouragement meant so much to me.
The moral is, I don't know, but as a beginner, I do feel like I need to be pushed out of my comfort zone, but also feel sometimes I need to know how far I have come. Andee at the very least, go to that Sunday night session as a research project for me darnit! You know I"m coming on the 23rd of Feb! I bought a mini-disc recorder too, so put me near the slagging end of the table!
# Posted on February 7th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Bitch!
In the words of Rodney King, "why can't we all just get along?" (Or was that Jack Nicholson in "Mars Attacks"? Or both?).
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by glauber
Re: Bitch!
It's been an eye-opener to have read this thread from it's beginning. Read the first post and knew it was going to be a good one. Would recommend setting up a separate heading just for it. Others will benefit. It's both an education of 'session culture' and an encouragement to beginning/intermediate players. It brings to mind two distinctly different experiences I had when in Wales a few years ago re sessions. Had purchased a mandolin in Dublin before taking the ferry across to Holyhead. Though I've played professionally for over 20 years, blah, blah, blah as a guitarist I'd never taken the time to really learn another instrument. Was on a bike tour and the mando seemed a good fit. A few days after I'd landed went to a 'session' in Bangor. The pub was called the 'Tap and Spile'. Didn't know anything about 'sessions' except the 'jam sessions' and 'pickin' parties' I'd been to in my jazz and bluegrass days. Knew a few 'Irish' tunes, but basically was a neophyte celtic player. The only skills I could bring were as a rhythm player. When I didn't know the chord changes I would dampen the strings and keep a pulse going percussively. Most of the players in attendence were polite and encouraging. There was one guy who while being a great flautist was a complete a**hole. He made a couple of comments about my playing and as we shared a name took me to task for the 'Americanized' spelling. A total prick. There was a sweet older gentlemen, a harmonica player who would start a song when things died down a little. Everytime, instead of either not playing or playing something complimentary T.A.(the a**hole)would blow right over top of this other guy and start another tune. This happened a number of times to different people by T.A. It occurred to me very quickly that it's a matter of personal character and responsibility each of brings to the session situation and I 'chose' not to respond in kind. Things could have gotten ugly rather quickly. Being secure in my abilities in my 'real' profession as a songwriter I felt sorry for T.A. that he would be so contrary in what I thought was a social situation. Had an opportunity to go back to Wales and at a session in Conwy at the Malt Loaf(they'd stopped the one at the T & S)one of the players at the session mentioned above remembered me and made a point of telling me how emarrassed he was and T.A. was a pariah and unwelcome at sessions in general. He gave me a ride back to my digs and we had a nice conversation about music, etc. On the same tour had an opportunity to attend a 'slow session' at the Cambrian Hotel in Aberystwyth run by a man named Peter. He was elfin, funny, playful and passionate about music. A wonderful spirit. In the same session was a great songwriter/guitarist named Brian Williams. He, selflessly gave pointers and encouragement to the 'rhythm' players. We had an occasion to hang out and drink a few pints over the next couple of days and his skills as a guitarist were formidable and world-class. Yet, his attachment to his abilities remained humble and confident. These personal recollections are offered in the spirit of showing examples of situations we 'all' face from time to time in musical situations as we progress in our abilities. Most are good and some are painful, but I'd prefer the 2nd example, myself. By virtue of his humility Brian showed me how much I 'didn't' know and in pursuit of this type of music, how much I had to learn. And he didn't say a word, he just played. T.A.(s) at the end of the table would do well to follow his example. As far as 'bitter souls' I can only point to an adult lifetime of session/gig/road work as a vocalist, writer, guitarist, etc. to substantiate my perspective on good/great players in 'non-paying' situations, such as an Irish/celtic pub session. 'Frustration' on some level is 'the' common thread running through 'all' of the people I've met in my work/play arena who are 'snipers and backbiters'. Those secure in their abilities and fulfilled in their lives don't bother. There are comments made about me years ago still echoing in my spirit. It's my choice whether or not to empower them and I chose to not. At the risk of sounding pollyanna, Dow the posting of your experience will benefit a number of people who've taken the step to learn how to play an instrument in their adult lives. Thanks for you courage. Most of us would've taken the hit, felt sorry for ourselves and never gone back to the session in question. Go back and play your butt off, you're a class act.
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by welshdude
Re: Bitch!
Don't get your standpoint on "bitter souls"; I'm being nosey 'cos it's me who said it before! It sounds like you've got a great session scene where you are, keep us informed, as Wales doesn't get that much press here unfortunately. I'm in Bristol next week so I'm hoping for an education when I finally get to Cardiff.
Conán
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Bitch!
Hehe. It's a sad day. Unfortunately, many of you will never understand. That is unfortunate to you and you alone. Will, I didn't even read your previous post. I simply posted my views on the subject. Don't start playing Big Brother, either. I don't need YOU to tell me what to say or think. I enjoy a good joke as well as the next person. But, I take certain things in life very seriously and that is why I have been so successful in the things that I do.
We should all strive for excellence in our lives and our playing. Is that so much to ask? Are people that apathetic? Don't we owe it to ourselves and the tradition as representatives? Come, come now. Not all of you can be happy with how you play. Why not make it better? A beginner must get out of the 'comfort zone' to become an intermediate, etc. Push the limits. Believe you can play like the best of them. You will get there only if you are commited. Whining and saying boo-hoo won't get you anywhere. Strive to be the best. I welcome a session with commited beginners. But, if you're just there to screw around, forget it.
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Aiki
Re: Bitch!
Congratulations on a, so far, very successful life, Aiki. Glad you see yourself as a "representative of the tradition", I'm just in it for the craic. For your info, some of the breeze-shooting mediocrities who attended sessions with me over the years have included Dermot McLaughlin, Martin McGinley, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, the late Frankie Kennedy, John McSherry, Reverend Gary Hastings, Father Seamus Quinn, Marcus O Murchu, Joe McHugh, Desi Wilkinson, Desi Adams, Tommy O Sullivan, Manus McGuire, Ciaran Curran, Fintan McManus, Andy Dixon, Deirdre Shannon, Ciaran Carson, Davey Maguire, Gerry O'Donnell etc etc etc. Sometimes we played a lot, sometimes we drank a lot, we certainly always talked a lot at the sessions.If you ever get to Ireland, I think your equation "talks and drinks a lot at session = mediocre player" will be one of your less successful efforts. I talk a lot and drink a lot at sessions and I am a damn good flute-player. And there are many more like me.
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by LongNote
Re: Bitch!
Give it up, LongNote, Aiki's clearly a tosser and the only recourse we have at this point is to ignore everything s/he says. But it was nice of you to try and educate the poor thing in the tradition.
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
I will give it up but not before I contribute an apt anecdote from Kevin Burke, seeing that Aiki has just posted Laington's (for which I thank him/her) from Kevin's recording. Burke told me he was once asked to adjudicate the fiddle competitions at a fleadh. As he was ensconced in a nice wee pub and it was a fleadh, Kevin, not unreasonably, decided that, seeing as there were plenty of good fiddlers in town for the craic, if he didn't show up, then someone else would get the job and the fee. So he stayed right where he was. Later, a very angry Comhaltas representative of the tradition tracked Kevin down to the pub and indignantly declared in front on the crowd "There you sit, Burke. That's all you're good for, smokin', drinkin' and talkin' s***e." As Kevin commented, "And the poor silly bastard thought he was insulting me!"
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by LongNote
Re: Bitch!
Don't be so hard on poor ol' Aiki. I think s/he's just modeling--for all our benefit and enlightenment--the kind of behavior Mark (Dow) started this thread about in the first place. One of those serious, masterful musicians who takes that as license to act like...well, like Aiki. Brilliant interpretation of the issue at hand, really. I think they call it "method acting." Couldn't imagine doing it better myself....
LongNote, some day we're gonna deduce your secret (but famous) identity. Keep telling us who you've played with, and sooner or later we'll narrow it down to the one missing, outrageous flute player, and we'll know. If I figure it out first, I'll not tell...
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bitch!
Oh, I've been playing that game for quite some time now, Will. Let's see -- outrageous, outspoken flute player living in the States who likes to swear, drink, talk, play a few and start all over again...yes, that narrows it down quite a bit...NOT. I thought I had LongNote when s/he mentioned the name of the group s/he played in, but so far have not been able to track that one down yet (of course, I haven't really set out to truly try, so LongNote may have uttered the kiss of death to his/her secret identity with that one still, if I ever get truly motivated to go track the reference down in my copious free time).
Warned ya now, haven't we, LongNote?
zls
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
Hey thanks Zina, you've inadvertently helped me beat my personal record of "number of hits for a discussion"! If you keep on bickering I might make a world record
When I began this thread I was expecting a few people to write in with similar stories to mine. Instead there was a flood of emotion-laden posts and in-fighting in the space of only a few hours. Jeremy what a superb website. Yay!
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Bickering! I never bicker, I go straight for the jugular or nothing. *grin*
That's a nice way to go thanking all these nice people who felt so sorry for you, go ahead, make fun of them, see what it gets you next time. *snort* Tch tch tch, Dow. It'll soon be another set of bruises for you, see if it isn't.
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
Oh but Zina, don't you just love the emotion-laden stuff? And people arguing with each other - I mean, why else would you go online? I'm not making fun of them - everyone's sound. And incidentally, I am sure that by now, bb has arranged for a gang of baseball-bat-wielding yobs to nab me on a darkened street corner in an obscure Sydney suburb very soon!
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
And I was under the impression that Australia was one of the safest, most non- violent places to be in the world!
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Andee
Re: Bitch!
It won't be after Prime Minister John Howard's finished with it
Hey Jeremy, you'll be so glad I'm not going to print what I think of that man - it would send a shockwave through the internet.
# Posted on February 8th 2003 by Dow
Similar (Bitch) Stories
In my short experience going to sessions I've been lucky so far that none of the bitching I've heard has been related directly to me. This is possibly because I've never pretended to be anything other than a rank amateur, and because given my level of ability, it's sometimes hard from the outside to tell a tune I know cold from (the occasional) one I'm just picking up at a session. (They all sound so much better in my family room!) However, I have heard a few people -- one in particular that I can think of -- belittling other players at a series of sessions. Most of the comments related to use or lack of use of ornamentation, or ability or lack of same to maintain a consistent rhythm. The comments I heard did initially make me a little queasy, and wondering what they might be saying about me outside of my earshot. On the other hand, the same bitchy person kept encouraging me to go to sessions, even sessions where it was obvious I was deeeeep over my head. And this person never to my knowledge sniped to anyone about my lack of skill.
At this point if I overheard snide comments about my playing I might take that as a compliment... that I had moved up from the ranks of hopeless to the level of "fair game."
When I was in high school singing in church choir an adult member once cornered me after a service and told me that I was "too aggressive." Despite not knowing what the heck this woman meant exactly, the comment totally floored me, and really colored my experience of the choir, the church, and organized religion in general. I more or less dropped out of all three, and it took me about 20 years to rediscover them. In retrospect, I wish I'd had the guts to say "the hell with it" and just kept on enjoying myself. I think those 20 years would have been better if I had.
I hope this experience isn't going to keep you from going to sessions. It's a shame to see one or two people's small mindedness having such a negative impact on an innocent bystander.
# Posted on February 9th 2003 by Fsnockhart
Re: Bitch!
OK Dow, FWIW 100+ posts later, I once played as a “casual” in someone else’s group for a function where uncomplimentary audience commentary was caught by the group’s video camera, which was set up near a dinner table. It’s a bit different to your situation in that the comments weren’t from musicians, weren’t about me personally, and were made at a gig rather than a session.
At least half of what the audience complained about were things that any intelligent person could see were unsatisfactory. Even the musical problems they commented on, when translated from “non-muso speak” were spot on, which the group couldn’t help but realise if they’d listened openly as suggested early in this thread. Their reaction though, was educational and illustrated why the problems had occurred in the first place - they laughed and basically said, “What would these ignoramuses know – they’re not musicians and they’ve got no idea what’s involved or what they’re talking about, so we'll just ignore everything they've said.”
The lesson I learned is that you treat the audience as “the great unwashed” at your own peril. There was no repeat business or good press out of this gig. A Famous Composer (Mozart, maybe?) once said something along the lines that a person doesn’t need to understand why he is delighted in order to *be* delighted. I learned from this tape that the converse is also true - a non-musician is often able to recognise a below-par performance for exactly what it is, even if they don't have the tools to analyse it in musicians' terms.
I "use the experience in a positive way" by reminding myself of it when tempted to cut corners or become complacent.
# Posted on February 9th 2003 by Tish
Re: Bitch!
Ok - this is starting to annoy me now - you all know I think your brilliant - BUT - how on earth do you know that these people are a) bitter, b) bad musicians c) horrible d) mean spirited e) not in it for the tunes etc, etc, etc - none of you know them....I know the people in sydney - they arent mean spiteful or bad musicians. They have their own taste - everyone is different. Loads of you know what players I love and dont love. Not everyone is going to like your playing Dow.! It doesnt mean you have to give up. Plenty of people *do* like it and enjoy you being in the session. Sorry if I shock anyone here - Ive been in situations where people really have wrecked session for me, maybe being ignorant about tunes and stuff - oh and shoot me dead right now....maybe I said something to someone in confidence about it. Sorry - I'm human and I find it *really, really* bloody difficult to believe that 99% of you on this site havent ever said you didnt like this film/tune/musician/cake - how self riteous! And before you guys say anything to me I know these people we are talking about - and there are no spiteful players in sydney. And as much as I love you greenwiggle - how would you know? Youve not been to *one* session that I frequent regularly since Ive been back which is six months. And Aiki - cop on - your session sound dead boring. I was at a session the other night - we had a right laugh and probably half the night was spent slagging and joking! It was great fun. So as Tish now knows - sydney is not full of mean spirited horrible and spiteful players. And Dow - I will bop you on the nose if you stop coming to sessions.
# Posted on February 9th 2003 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Bitch!
I know everyone's not going to like my playing - God I'd be a right arrogant git if I did think so. I think we'd all admit that we've slagged off a fellow musician at some point. I'm sure I've said that somewhere in the last few posts (see above). I don't think anyone is seriously having a go at the Sydney people - this has been more of an objective, general thread talking about people's experiences of being slagged off and how people dealt with it. This isn't about "me", bb. And it's certainly not about you so there's no need to get all defensive. I haven't pointed the finger at you have I?
However, it's one thing to make a couple of negative comments about someone's playing within earshot, quite another to have half the players at the session slag you off in a group conversation. I think I mentioned that it wasn't just through the one tune, it was bad vibes and comments for the whole duration of the session, which peaked during "The College Groves". Like I said, I only heard it when I edited the minidisc. The thing that I found most galling was that after the session I *clearly* remember saying positive comments to each of those same musicians like "you're an excellent player - you should be in a band", and "thanks, I've really enjoyed playing with you tonight". Those are probably my exact words because I remember the conversations so well.
bb look me in the eye and tell me that if that happened to you at a Sydney session it wouldn't affect your view of it. I'm absolutely determined now not to let this upset me after everyone's written in with their own stories and words of encouragement. I don't want it to upset you either.
# Posted on February 9th 2003 by Dow
Re: Bitch!
Are you sure it was half the session? Maybe I'm just oblivious - I dont get those 'bad vibes'. And I'm glad its not upsetting you. I wasnt meaning the last post be directed at you anyhow. I was really just asking why most people were being so self righteous as we are all humans etc. And trust me when I say that if half the session said that about your playing, then the other half didnt. So I really hope you decided to come back for tunes, I certainly really missed having you there on sat. You know sunday - I wouldnt have been able to hear you even if you were there
# Posted on February 9th 2003 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Bitch!
you are dead right bb...I haven't been to *one* of your regular haunts/session since you've been back. I can see from Dows experience that it hasn't changed since the last time I was there, so why bother?
No need to be upset. There are plenty of opportunities elsewhere for good people who play and dance and sing and drink and entertain and enjoy themselves
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
DON'T you start again, you two. *grin*
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bitch!
Sorry Zina!!!!
OK Bb, I apologise for not putting myself in the line of fire more often. I'll be going out tonight to play some tunes...maybe I'll see you there?
A friend just mentioned to me that this thread and original discussion is very one-sided. So if you know of any of the miscreants responsible, maybe you could convince them to put across their "side of the story"? to put a bit of balance to the thread. Maybe they already know about it?
Anyway, keep on playing music and having fun everyone!
# Posted on February 11th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Bitch!
Jeremy
Has this been the longest post ever?
Alan
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Alanmmcgregor
Re: Bitch!
There is another side of this (not that I know any of the parties involved), which is that frankly, some people are a**holes. This may or may not affect their ability to play good music, in sessions or anywhere else. For example, I've played a few sessions over the last 15 years with a guy who is a respected(AFAIK) fiddle player, has been a professional musician blah blah blah, and seems like an ok guy. He has almost never failed to comment disparagingly about my playing on these occasions, to the point where I once swore I'd never play with him again. But after talking it over with a mutual friend, I've come to the conclusion that he's actually trying to be encouraging, but just doesn't have the conversational skills or whatever to communicate successfully with other players. I also might be a teeny bit sensitive from time to time...
I've also played in a band with someone that I had no time for, mostly on a personal level (see the comment above about treating audiences with respect), but with whom I shared a solid musical relationship for many years -- and not without some backbiting on my part, I might add.
Just to point out that lots of musicians are people who may have chosen to emphasize musical development over practicing their social skills, and that you don't always have to like them in order to play music with them. Granted, this is easier said than done. Also, a large percentage of a**holes don't have much to offer musically either.
Greg "Not a miscreant."
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Gzeg
Re: Bitch!
I just looked at this thread again and was astonished to see that it has collected recent posts even though it has disappeared onto the second page. Greg, I don't know how to view these people really, all I know is I'm going to try hard not to let the incident tarnish my view of the music and sessions in general. I wish it didn't have to be a case of "playing music with people whether you like them or not". All I want to do is to go to the pub, have a few beers and play some nice tunes with other people who want to go to the pub, have a few beers and play some nice tunes. I can't be done with the politics, and want to avoid that side of it, now that I realise there's no point in fighting against it since it will always exist.
# Posted on February 12th 2003 by Dow