Yesterday's nightmare discussion made me think of the "folk process" with tunes. How many times have tunes heard and partially remembered, are then reworked into somewhat new tunes but with some of the same structure or phrasing. Quite a few of us have had this happen when writing "new" tunes. Lucy Campbell's and The Bucks of Oranmore appear to be examples of related tunes.
What do you think? What are some other pairs or families of tunes?
Have to agree with Cabers on this one as I've also thought that this factor (hearing a tune and not remembering it properly) is probably the main reason we have so many tunes. As well as the Bucks and Lucy, there's also Last Night's Fun and Sporting Nell which have very similar "A" parts; and who hasn't had problems at one time or another with the "B" parts of Cronin's, Miss Monaghan, the Belles of Tipperary and Devanney's Goat (4 related reels!)?
Some well-known examples are:
New and Old Copperplates and Rakish Paddy
3 versions of Toss the Feathers
Gray Old Lady of Raasay (Amaj), Miss McLeod's (Gmaj), and Garret Barry's Reel (aka. Mister McLeod's)
Connaghtman's Rambles (jig) and Silver Spear (reel)
Jenny Dang the Weaver (Dmaj) and Longford Tinker (Bm-ish)
Other are:
Green Groves of Erin (Ador) and Milliner's Daughter (Gmaj)
Da Full-Rigged Ship (Ador), Rakes of Kildare (Ador) and Thank God We're Surrounded By Water (Gmaj)
Lark in the Morning, Old Lark in the Morning (Dmaji) and Lark on the Strand (Ador-ish)
Green Mountain (traditional) and Tinker's Daughter (V. Broderick tune)
etc, etc...
I actually love related tunes - I like to put them together in sets so I can better hear the similarities and the differences. Plus it usually makes the whole transition issue WAY easier -_-
Ah, Carraroe Jig and Scotsman over the Border; and Carraroe Jig and Miss Monaghan
And Boyne Hunt and Sailor on the Rock, both with almost identical second part
And, and...
Slainte, I think you need to be a bit careful about claiming that tunes are "related". Nothing wrong with saying that you think tunes are "similar", but "related" implies to me that one tune inspired another in the mind of the composer. Sometimes it's really obvious this has happened, but if you were to prove others you'd really have to delve into old manuscripts and see how tunes evolved over time, or even speak to the composer if they're still alive. An example is Glen Allen and Sally Gardens. It could be coincidental that they use similar melodic material in the 2nd parts, which sound a bit similar, but I don't see anything to suggest that they might actually be *related*. Similar maybe, related no. I think it's interesting to read stuff that musicologists have written about tunes that are truly related, and find out how they established this through studying how they've evolved, but I think once you start claiming willy-nilly that every pair of similar tunes you come across is a pair of "related" tunes, you're on very dodgy ground...
I don't recommend Moincoin with Langstrum Pony in Amix.........that's a challenge! The D part in Moincoin is even the same as the C part in Langstrum in the versions I've heard. (hmmm....I notice the D part missing from this website... someone around here must've tagged the Pony's tail on to the Moincoin....)
Oooo, or are they kind of families of tunes tied together (related) by their similarities, which may have evolved from a common source. I dunno. Its probably one of those unanswerable questions. And I agree with morning star, the Mooncoin and Langstrum's Pony are easily muddled - so now I'm sitting fiddling away at them while sitting here half typing this post at the computer and getting them muddled. They are definitely twins of tunes and identical twins at that.
How's about the 9 Points of Roguery and the Black Mare of Fanad ?......... they're so similar that we're always trying to play them together (which gets me messed up on the A part especially).
I am looking for a tune called Joe Mhaire Mhicilin I believe it to be the silver spear's first cousin. My dad once told me that Joe Mhaire Mhicilin was also known as The Ups and Downs of Galway, does anyone know the tune, its normally twined up with the silver spear but the silver spear its not.
Thanks
Different tunes from the same source?
Different tunes from the same source?
Yesterday's nightmare discussion made me think of the "folk process" with tunes. How many times have tunes heard and partially remembered, are then reworked into somewhat new tunes but with some of the same structure or phrasing. Quite a few of us have had this happen when writing "new" tunes. Lucy Campbell's and The Bucks of Oranmore appear to be examples of related tunes.
What do you think? What are some other pairs or families of tunes?
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by cabers
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
The Tenpenny Bit, The Rakes Of Kildare and The Lilting Banshee have a lot of similarities, especially when sozzled. Yes, I mean the tunes...
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
I have always thought that "the Bucks of Oranmore" sounds like "the Lark in the Morning" reworked as a reel.
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by Murph
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Have to agree with Cabers on this one as I've also thought that this factor (hearing a tune and not remembering it properly) is probably the main reason we have so many tunes. As well as the Bucks and Lucy, there's also Last Night's Fun and Sporting Nell which have very similar "A" parts; and who hasn't had problems at one time or another with the "B" parts of Cronin's, Miss Monaghan, the Belles of Tipperary and Devanney's Goat (4 related reels!)?
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Some well-known examples are:
New and Old Copperplates and Rakish Paddy
3 versions of Toss the Feathers
Gray Old Lady of Raasay (Amaj), Miss McLeod's (Gmaj), and Garret Barry's Reel (aka. Mister McLeod's)
Connaghtman's Rambles (jig) and Silver Spear (reel)
Jenny Dang the Weaver (Dmaj) and Longford Tinker (Bm-ish)
Other are:
Green Groves of Erin (Ador) and Milliner's Daughter (Gmaj)
Da Full-Rigged Ship (Ador), Rakes of Kildare (Ador) and Thank God We're Surrounded By Water (Gmaj)
Lark in the Morning, Old Lark in the Morning (Dmaji) and Lark on the Strand (Ador-ish)
Green Mountain (traditional) and Tinker's Daughter (V. Broderick tune)
etc, etc...
And we've been discussing the origin of the Rainy Day here: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7228/comments
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by slainte
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
I actually love related tunes - I like to put them together in sets so I can better hear the similarities and the differences. Plus it usually makes the whole transition issue WAY easier -_-
--DtM
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by Dan the Man
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Ah, Carraroe Jig and Scotsman over the Border; and Carraroe Jig and Miss Monaghan
And Boyne Hunt and Sailor on the Rock, both with almost identical second part
And, and...
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by slainte
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
I like pairing related tunes too, but they should be in different keys: otherwise I or other people in the session would be confused.
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by slainte
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Foxhunters and Come West Along the Road! I always try and separate similar type tunes as much as possible to avoid the confusion.
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by Bannerman
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Come West along the Road! I'm always reluctant to learn very similar tunes like Bush in Bloom, Green-Gowned Lass, and Monasteraden Fancy.
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by slainte
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Here's another: Glen Allen and Sally Gardens. Now I'll stop.
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by slainte
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Slainte, I think you need to be a bit careful about claiming that tunes are "related". Nothing wrong with saying that you think tunes are "similar", but "related" implies to me that one tune inspired another in the mind of the composer. Sometimes it's really obvious this has happened, but if you were to prove others you'd really have to delve into old manuscripts and see how tunes evolved over time, or even speak to the composer if they're still alive. An example is Glen Allen and Sally Gardens. It could be coincidental that they use similar melodic material in the 2nd parts, which sound a bit similar, but I don't see anything to suggest that they might actually be *related*. Similar maybe, related no. I think it's interesting to read stuff that musicologists have written about tunes that are truly related, and find out how they established this through studying how they've evolved, but I think once you start claiming willy-nilly that every pair of similar tunes you come across is a pair of "related" tunes, you're on very dodgy ground...
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by Dow
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Pairing related tunes smacks of incest to me.
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
I think Breandan Breathnach went into the relationships and origins of tunes in his volumes of "Ceol Rince nahEireann", but a lot of it's in Irish.
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by nicholas
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Slieve Russell - same basic notes as The Congress but played in jig.
# Posted on May 19th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
I don't recommend Moincoin with Langstrum Pony in Amix.........that's a challenge! The D part in Moincoin is even the same as the C part in Langstrum in the versions I've heard. (hmmm....I notice the D part missing from this website... someone around here must've tagged the Pony's tail on to the Moincoin....)
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by morning star
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
So, we are talking about simply "similar" tunes instead of strictly "related" tunes.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by slainte
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
Oooo, or are they kind of families of tunes tied together (related) by their similarities, which may have evolved from a common source. I dunno. Its probably one of those unanswerable questions. And I agree with morning star, the Mooncoin and Langstrum's Pony are easily muddled - so now I'm sitting fiddling away at them while sitting here half typing this post at the computer and getting them muddled. They are definitely twins of tunes and identical twins at that.
# Posted on May 20th 2007 by Clear Drops
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
How's about the 9 Points of Roguery and the Black Mare of Fanad ?......... they're so similar that we're always trying to play them together (which gets me messed up on the A part especially).
# Posted on May 21st 2007 by morning star
Re: Different tunes from the same source?
I am looking for a tune called Joe Mhaire Mhicilin I believe it to be the silver spear's first cousin. My dad once told me that Joe Mhaire Mhicilin was also known as The Ups and Downs of Galway, does anyone know the tune, its normally twined up with the silver spear but the silver spear its not.
Thanks
# Posted on July 16th 2007 by Maire Mhor