James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
James Hill (c.1811-1853) is known as the Scottish-born musician who migrated to Tyneside and became well-known there for his playing and his prolific composition of tunes, almost all of them 4/4 hornpipes.
But I assume he learned his craft in Scotland as a child: most accomplished fiddle players have started learning their instrument pretty early in life. So, I wonder what tunes and styles he would have brought with him from Scotland (was it Dundee he may have come from?) as a youth, somewhere round 1825-30.
I did vaguely assume that the 4/4 hornpipe was a novel early-c19 fashion with which Hill and his talents coincided on Tyneside, but then I came across a hornpipe called The West Indian from the Vickers Ms of 1770, and this tune has quite a bit of the feel of a Hill tune. One swallow needn't make a summer, but this tune does suggest to me that the 4/4 hornpipe and Hill's manner of composing in it had been around for half a century in NE England before Hill himself actually turned up. If so, Hill obviously applied himself to adopting existing styles as much as to innovation.
Also, were 4/4 hornpipes played much or at all in Scotland at this time (late c18-early c19)?
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
Good questions... I wonder if Graham Dixon is on this site. Sadly his book on Hill is currently unavailable... Thanks for starting what should grow into an interesting thread...
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
I've been thinking about this as well. I've come across a lot of hornpipes in that style and have found them to be Scottish in origin, so perhaps he simply brought with him a Scottish fiddle style that was already well established. The hornpipes that have been composed recently in Northumberland by the likes of Willy Taylor, Will Atkinson etc sometimes draw on elements of the style but are still a bit different, often being written with the ns pipes in mind rather than the fiddle. On the other hand, although that tune you mention - the West Indian Hp - has similarities to James Hill tunes in terms of style, it's still not as crazy as the Hill tunes in terms of pitch range and modulations etc, so maybe Hill just took what was already there and developed it into something new, and took it to an extreme. I wonder if his work had a mixed reception at the time. He certainly was writing in a style that was fashionable during the 1800s.
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
Do you have the Gow collection from Oak Publishing? Covers 1784-1822. Lotsa F, Bb, Eb in there. Whether they're Hill-style fingerbusters I couldn't tell you. Had William Marshall published the bulk of his stuff before this time? Perhaps Hill considered himself the English answer to Marshall in terms of difficulty.
A.L. Lloyd in Folk Songs of England remarked that he thought the NSP had influenced vocal melodies - all those arpeggios, which are simple stuff on the smallpipes chanter but sting on the fiddle. Perhaps Hill was aping pipe melodies. The pipers were big into showing off as well.
Doesn't FARNE have another big 18th century manuscript? The Vickers is there in its entirety.
Got curious about the 3/2 hornpipe - when was the last instance of it in print? Reading various posts here I kept coming across Dow's contention that Irish musos don't know how to play them. You should listen to what happened to them in America! Anyway I cued something up for you:
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
That's for drums. His take on the constant comping was that it showed the influence of George Formby...
Have fond memories of driving around bashing the steering wheel listening to Walsh. I think it's brilliant, Willie Clancy was a strong admirer too they say.
Denis Brooks, founder of the US Pipers' club, first heard the pipes from Liam Walsh - on US TV - in the mid-50s! Probably the only time the pipes were broadcast the whole decade.
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
It was an historic reference Kevin... The same source, Seamus's own heavy size 14 (? - they were big) feet traveling to the microphone. That's where the quotes and stories originated, his comment that the only way to play a bodhran was with an open pocket knife... The joke was really on Seamus, it was his foot tapping. It wasn't anyone else, no bodhran playing taking place... I'm pretty sure that boom, boom, boom on the Walsh recording is the same thing, the player tapping his foot as heavily as Seamus would...
James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
James Hill (c.1811-1853) is known as the Scottish-born musician who migrated to Tyneside and became well-known there for his playing and his prolific composition of tunes, almost all of them 4/4 hornpipes.
But I assume he learned his craft in Scotland as a child: most accomplished fiddle players have started learning their instrument pretty early in life. So, I wonder what tunes and styles he would have brought with him from Scotland (was it Dundee he may have come from?) as a youth, somewhere round 1825-30.
I did vaguely assume that the 4/4 hornpipe was a novel early-c19 fashion with which Hill and his talents coincided on Tyneside, but then I came across a hornpipe called The West Indian from the Vickers Ms of 1770, and this tune has quite a bit of the feel of a Hill tune. One swallow needn't make a summer, but this tune does suggest to me that the 4/4 hornpipe and Hill's manner of composing in it had been around for half a century in NE England before Hill himself actually turned up. If so, Hill obviously applied himself to adopting existing styles as much as to innovation.
Also, were 4/4 hornpipes played much or at all in Scotland at this time (late c18-early c19)?
# Posted on May 6th 2007 by nicholas
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
Good questions... I wonder if Graham Dixon is on this site. Sadly his book on Hill is currently unavailable... Thanks for starting what should grow into an interesting thread...
# Posted on May 6th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
I've been thinking about this as well. I've come across a lot of hornpipes in that style and have found them to be Scottish in origin, so perhaps he simply brought with him a Scottish fiddle style that was already well established. The hornpipes that have been composed recently in Northumberland by the likes of Willy Taylor, Will Atkinson etc sometimes draw on elements of the style but are still a bit different, often being written with the ns pipes in mind rather than the fiddle. On the other hand, although that tune you mention - the West Indian Hp - has similarities to James Hill tunes in terms of style, it's still not as crazy as the Hill tunes in terms of pitch range and modulations etc, so maybe Hill just took what was already there and developed it into something new, and took it to an extreme. I wonder if his work had a mixed reception at the time. He certainly was writing in a style that was fashionable during the 1800s.
# Posted on May 6th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
Do you have the Gow collection from Oak Publishing? Covers 1784-1822. Lotsa F, Bb, Eb in there. Whether they're Hill-style fingerbusters I couldn't tell you. Had William Marshall published the bulk of his stuff before this time? Perhaps Hill considered himself the English answer to Marshall in terms of difficulty.
A.L. Lloyd in Folk Songs of England remarked that he thought the NSP had influenced vocal melodies - all those arpeggios, which are simple stuff on the smallpipes chanter but sting on the fiddle. Perhaps Hill was aping pipe melodies. The pipers were big into showing off as well.
Doesn't FARNE have another big 18th century manuscript? The Vickers is there in its entirety.
Got curious about the 3/2 hornpipe - when was the last instance of it in print? Reading various posts here I kept coming across Dow's contention that Irish musos don't know how to play them. You should listen to what happened to them in America! Anyway I cued something up for you:
http://klrietmann.bingodisk.com/bingo/public/LiamWalshTheStackofBarleyMedley(AlexandersDunphys).mp3
This swings so hard it makes every Tyneside fiddler I've heard sound like a MIDI file.
# Posted on May 7th 2007 by KLR
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
Yup, that's too much swing for my taste. And that emphasis on the backbeat is just so horrible.
# Posted on May 7th 2007 by Dr. Dow
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
At this point Seamus Ennis would have been asking for an open pocket knife...
# Posted on May 7th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
That's for drums. His take on the constant comping was that it showed the influence of George Formby...
Have fond memories of driving around bashing the steering wheel listening to Walsh. I think it's brilliant, Willie Clancy was a strong admirer too they say.
Denis Brooks, founder of the US Pipers' club, first heard the pipes from Liam Walsh - on US TV - in the mid-50s! Probably the only time the pipes were broadcast the whole decade.
Anyway back to those clogs!
# Posted on May 7th 2007 by KLR
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
It was an historic reference Kevin... The same source, Seamus's own heavy size 14 (? - they were big) feet traveling to the microphone. That's where the quotes and stories originated, his comment that the only way to play a bodhran was with an open pocket knife... The joke was really on Seamus, it was his foot tapping. It wasn't anyone else, no bodhran playing taking place... I'm pretty sure that boom, boom, boom on the Walsh recording is the same thing, the player tapping his foot as heavily as Seamus would...
# Posted on May 7th 2007 by ceolachan
Re: James Hill (fiddler / composer) : one or two questions
nicholas - I'd asked a similar question a few years ago, some of the replies might not answer your specific q re h/pipes but may at least be of some interest:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/3050/comments#comment60464
# Posted on May 7th 2007 by Rudall the time